Mellotronists

Help!

Ken L and I are desperately trying to get *that* Mellotron sound into our recordings, but are coming up short so far. We're working separately, both recording directly to PC disk (no mics) using Echo 24 bit sound cards. He's playing his M400, I'm playing my MKII. I'm using direct boxes and balanced cables to minimize noise (thanks for that tip in Tronto, Fritz). We both have access to reverbs (spring, digital) and all kinds of software processors, compressors, EQs, etc.

We're getting good results - accurate, but not the *classic* mellotron sounds we have all heard on recordings.

Here's an example of what I mean - a well recorded Mellotron.

www.tronsounds.com/songs/hvn.mp3

This is from Gracious, recorded around 1970. I just discovered it a few weeks ago, after someone on this list mentioned that the keyboard player recently died (guess we can't ask the source). It is a snippet from their song "Heaven". Aside from a couple of dropouts at 42 and 44 seconds, the sound is great. It starts off with MKII Organ, then the MKII violins (along with with a nice sounding bass) come in at around 46 seconds - what a sound! Listen to the violins in the mix - how do you get *that* sound? Does anyone know what recording techniques would have been used? I think I can hear some track bouncing, and reverb, but I can't get the same results. Of course, there are many other well recorded Mellotron songs out there, but this is a good representation.

I know we have some people on the list with a lot more recording experience than KL and I - we're just amateurs. Any thoughts? Fritz, Jimmy Moore, SDM, Rick, Frank, Gordon, anyone else? Don't tell me it's analog tape or something, that's not what I want to hear ;-).

It's funny, when I first listened to this tune, I immediately thought "that's the sound I want to get". Then I played it for KL when he came over (without telling him what it was or anything) and he said (right at that 46 second mark) "that's the sound that I'm trying to get". So we're turning to the list for help.


Ken M.
(MKII #247, awaiting further orders sir!)

The bit Ken and I would like to emulate from that song snippet is the
3-violins starting around 0:45 and continuing from there.

The sound is warm and smooth, and it seems to have some kind of
envelope on the start of the notes.

It sounds like it has been EQ'ed up a bit in the upper bass range and
has had the high end knocked off (to get rid of the harshness). Then
it's got some reverb/delay applied to split the channels or has been
double-tracked to get a stereo effect, perhaps 1 octave lower in a
different chord pattern (haven't tried that).

I've tried doing the EQ thing, and it begins to get there, but the
damn PC-based EQ I'm using doesn't cut it (need more bands). If I
use the parametric EQ on the Mackie I can vary the sound quite a bit,
but I can't get that nice, smooth sound in the Gracious! tune.

...kl...M400 #805 - victim of experimentation

Dear All,

A hopeless stab in the dark but possibly of some relevance but as I remember it many 'early' Mellotron recordings were the result of micing up the instrument thus making the sound of the onboard amps/speakers a part of the sound.

Discuss...

All the best,
Norm
PS: simulated tape echo always does it for me!)

> A hopeless stab in the dark but possibly of some relevance but as I

remember

> it many 'early' Mellotron recordings were the result of micing up

the

> instrument thus making the sound of the onboard amps/speakers a

part of the

> sound.

Ahhh, yes, the sound that *still* has the hair at the back of my neck
at full attention...

We were just discussing this on the MONEYPIT YahooGroup. I have a
couple of mics (Shure SM57 (another Fritz recommendation), Electro-
Voice N/D468 (was on close-out, not a bad bit of kit)) and we'll be
giving this a shot.

Ken: What kind of ins are there on the Bellaris? 1/4"? 3-prong mic
input? Both?

...kl...M400 #805 - just mechanical noise

> Ken L and I are desperately trying to get *that* Mellotron sound into our
> recordings, but are coming up short so far. We're working separately, both
> recording directly to PC disk (no mics) using Echo 24 bit sound cards. He's
> playing his M400, I'm playing my MKII. I'm using direct boxes and balanced
> cables to minimize noise (thanks for that tip in Tronto, Fritz). We both
> have access to reverbs (spring, digital) and all kinds of software
> processors, compressors, EQs, etc.

Someone else is bound to mention this, but miking it up (rather than
recording it directly) has a far more 'authentic' feel to it, if that's
what you're after.

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

tron@... wrote:

> Ken L and I are desperately trying to get *that* Mellotron sound into our
> recordings, but are coming up short so far. We're working separately, both
> recording directly to PC disk (no mics) using Echo 24 bit sound cards. He's
> playing his M400, I'm playing my MKII. I'm using direct boxes and balanced
> cables to minimize noise (thanks for that tip in Tronto, Fritz). We both
> have access to reverbs (spring, digital) and all kinds of software
> processors, compressors, EQs, etc.

Someone else is bound to mention this, but miking it up (rather than
recording it directly) has a far more 'authentic' feel to it, if that's
what you're after.

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996

When Ian was up here last fall for Tronto MkII, I had a long discussion about how the first KC album was recorded--specifically the mellotron. Here's what he remembered:

Get one of those honking big Neumann U87s or U47s
Play the mellotron through a HiWatt stack, turned up fairly loud
Throw on lots of reverb at the mixing end and a bit on the amp/tron (if you have a MkII) end
Stand back and make the hair stand up for everyone on your street (assuming you're doing this in your basement).
Cost: about $7k
Results: priceless

Hope this helps. Obviously, there are cheaper ways to go about this, but I would suggest a tube amp. I've run mine through a fair number and find Marshall & HiWatt the best. Odd that they're both British... Stay away from Fenders. For some reason, they seem to make melltrons sound pretty harsh.

Rick (SFX 10030--what's wrong with my 10" Warfdale speaker?)

PS Mike, Rodney says hi. My younger son says F-off. I guess he still hasn't forgiven you for his crab hat...

In a message dated 8/4/02 5:56:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rick@... writes:

When Ian was up here last fall for Tronto MkII, I had a long discussion about how the first KC album was recorded--specifically the mellotron. Here's what he remembered: Get one of those honking big Neumann U87s or U47s
Play the mellotron through a HiWatt stack, turned up fairly loud
Throw on lots of reverb at the mixing end and a bit on the amp/tron (if you have a MkII) end
Stand back and make the hair stand up for everyone on your street (assuming you're doing this in your basement).
Cost: about $7k
Results: priceless

Hmmm........Dig a basement, $20,000.

Hiwatt stack? Guess my POD wouldn't work? ;-)

Maybe I need to consider setting this beast up to be mic'd. It does have two lovely Warfdale speakers which sound great, I just don't want to frighten any small children.

Has anyone tried recording one of these beasts through a microphone?
Is there really a difference?


Ken M

> > Someone else is bound to mention this, but miking it up (rather than
> > recording it directly) has a far more 'authentic' feel to it, if
> > that's
> > what you're after.
>
> When Ian was up here last fall for Tronto MkII, I had a long discussion
> about how the first KC album was recorded--specifically the mellotron.
> Here's what he remembered:
>
> Get one of those honking big Neumann U87s or U47s
> Play the mellotron through a HiWatt stack, turned up fairly loud
> Throw on lots of reverb at the mixing end and a bit on the amp/tron (if
> you have a MkII) end
> Stand back and make the hair stand up for everyone on your street
> (assuming you're doing this in your basement).
> Cost: about $7k
> Results: priceless
>
> Hope this helps. Obviously, there are cheaper ways to go about this, but
> I would suggest a tube amp. I've run mine through a fair number and find
> Marshall & HiWatt the best. Odd that they're both British... Stay away
> from Fenders. For some reason, they seem to make melltrons sound pretty
> harsh.

This even works for the poor-mans-mellotronists like me that have to live with
samples. All my best almostmellotron recordings were done by running the sound
through a couple of Vox amps. I had particularly great success with a setup
with one clean amp and one with a ton of reverb. Miking up both amps and then
send the two signals through a ReVox A77 such that the two signals are delayed
separately and added to the other channel with S-on-S. This gives an incredibly
huge sound, yet distinctive and symmetric (sort of). A part of the trick here
is that Vox amps from the mid-60'ies had a strange lo-fi reverb circuit based
on two grammophone pickups that suspend a spring. It sounds great for this
purpose.

Frank Carvalho

Tony Clarke drinks lager.

He does? The bastard!!!

Jon Salley wrote:

The final piece of the puzzle is to tune the Mellotron down by 1-3 cents or so, just enough to give it a little bit of melancholy flatness in pitch.

You get the three ambiences playing against each other, the distance, the thickness of sound, the individuality of each strip of tape, and that little bit of sad wistfulness that the flat intonation provides.



TOO RIGHT JON!!

I reckon you've hit the nail on the head here!... Tuning is all!..Our beloved Novatron is often recorded at such a pitch, and sounds GORGEOUS!!.. (Try the Audio download clip "In Love with Sundae" on our website...) In contrast, our latest recording called for 'Tron 'cello, which we decided to route through Antares Autotune, a result so horribly realistic was achieved that we substituted real 'cello instead!

CfN!!

C

http://www.s-club.co.uk