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35 Notes

35 Notes

2007-05-31 by Mike Dickson

Can anyone suggest why the Tron uses the 35 notes that it does? Why were
there not more than 35 notes? I'm assuming this was down to HC way back,
but does anyone know why he settled on that particular 35?

--
Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-05-31 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 5/31/2007 1:12:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mike.dickson@... writes:
Why were
there not more than 35 notes? I'm assuming this was down to HC way back,
but does anyone know why he settled on that particular 35?
Apparently, HC felt that those 35 notes addressed the useful range of most orchestral instruments.]
Frank



See what's free at AOL.com.

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-05-31 by jonesalley

All I can say with certainty is that it goes all the way back to Harry's
original prototype.





> Can anyone suggest why the Tron uses the 35 notes that it does? Why were
> there not more than 35 notes? I'm assuming this was down to HC way back,
> but does anyone know why he settled on that particular 35?
>

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-05-31 by jeffc@netaxs.com

On Thu, 31 May 2007, Mike Dickson wrote:

> Can anyone suggest why the Tron uses the 35 notes that it does? Why were
> there not more than 35 notes? I'm assuming this was down to HC way back,
> but does anyone know why he settled on that particular 35?



i am confused.
there are more than 35 notes?

here i was thinking all my other keyboards had spare keys for some odd
reason. damn. i think i may have ruined all my other keyboards and
synths... damn damn damn... anyone need a piano with 35 keys? cheap?

...jeff


> --
> Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
> The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
> Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

Re: 35 Notes

2007-05-31 by ceccles_ca

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@...>
wrote:
I'm assuming this was down to HC way back,
> but does anyone know why he settled on that particular 35?

1) Harry C didn't like the black keys much.

2) He hated F#.

3) The three old ladies with the violins didn't want to adjust their
G-strings for Harry.

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-05-31 by jonesalley

anyone need a piano with 35 keys? cheap?


Isn't that what you use to accompany "a guitar with only one string?"

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-05-31 by Mike Dickson

jonesalley wrote:
> All I can say with certainty is that it goes all the way back to Harry's
> original prototype.
>
Sure - otherwise why else did he have only 35 violin notes recorded? I'm
not sure I entirely buy the business about it encompassing the best
range of orchestral instruments either. Maybe, but it just doesn't feel
right. It all feels too arbitrary.

Oh, and another three-in-a-row on the way home in the car this evening.
I have no idea who they are - three fairly bland songs sung by black
American females - but each of the songs had Mellotron sounds somewhere
in them. Samples, no doubt, but it's still *that sound* that people are
after.

--
Mike Dickson, Edinburgh

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by jonesalley

I really wonder if the number was determined by a combination of; 1)the size
of the keyboard that Harry had for his prototype, 2)the number of tape heads
he had available, and 3)the range of whatever sound he used for his first
experiments.

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 5/31/2007 8:37:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonesalley@... writes:

I really wonder if the number was determined by a combination of; 1)the size
of the keyboard that Harry had for his prototype, 2)the number of tape heads
he had available, and 3)the range of whatever sound he used for his first
experiments.

Perhaps it was that when he listened back to the recordings of instruments played back, the higher notes just sounded too weird. I still believe that the 35 note range was the only useful one. Perhaps he could have gone a bit lower on some instruments and higher on others, but overall, the 35 we have now was a compromise. Even now, boys choir does not sound like anything of this earth in the higher registers. How far up could you go with flute? Or Down? 8 choir is already doubled in the right end. Obviously the Bradleys agreed.
Frank



See what's free at AOL.com.

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by Rick Blechta


On May 31, 2007, at 9:15 PM, lsf5275@... wrote:

Perhaps it was that when he listened back to the recordings of instruments played back, the higher notes just sounded too weird. I still believe that the 35 note range was the only useful one. Perhaps he could have gone a bit lower on some instruments and higher on others, but overall, the 35 we have now was a compromise. Even now, boys choir does not sound like anything of this earth in the higher registers. How far up could you go with flute? Or Down? 8 choir is already doubled in the right end. Obviously the Bradleys agreed.
Frank

Having a good working knowledge of all wind and string instruments through my 23 years of teaching in schools, and having recorded more than my share of mellotron tracks I can say definitely that most instruments have a useable range of less than 35 notes. If you get up into the extreme high range, they just don't sound all that good and it can be REALLY hard to hold some of those notes rock steady for the required 8 seconds. Keyboards and strings are an exception to this, but 35 really does give you the best part of most instruments. Voice is the big exception here. There are not too many singers who can cover the needs of a mellotron keyboard all by themselves -- and I wouldn't want them to try!

Personally, I think Harry came up with the actual pitches because of the violin, arguably the most famous of all sounds, whether Chamberlin or Mellotron. The lowest note on a violin is low G and the F at the top gives you quite an adequate range.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Rick

Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 5/31/2007 9:53:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rick@... writes:
Personally, I think Harry came up with the actual pitches because of the violin, arguably the most famous of all sounds, whether Chamberlin or Mellotron. The lowest note on a violin is low G and the F at the top gives you quite an adequate range.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Rick
You certainly would know more about this than I. What you say certainly makes sense.
Frank



See what's free at AOL.com.

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by ceccles_ca

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Rick Blechta <rick@...> wrote:

> Personally, I think Harry came up with the actual pitches because of
> the violin, arguably the most famous of all sounds, whether
> Chamberlin or Mellotron. The lowest note on a violin is low G and the
> F at the top gives you quite an adequate range.

That sounds right. A standard Clarinet also starts at the low G like
violin. Some wind instruments can't produce 35 notes. It makes me
wonder how they recorded trumpet and french horn. (33 notes and they
don't start at G). A lot of butt-cheek clenching on those high notes.

You recorded french horn Rick. How did you get 35 notes?

RE: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by Pomeroy Ranch

It’s my understanding that Harry did use other instruments (like bass clarinet, etc.) to get lower registers of some sounds, including the flute I believe….


(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

RE: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by Pomeroy Ranch

Voice is the big exception here. There are not too many singers who can cover the needs of a mellotron keyboard all by themselves -- and I wouldn't want them to try!

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Rick

<

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

RE: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by Bruce Daily

Hi all-
Another couple of ideas:
1)Maybe more than 35 tape heads increased electronic
noise figures to an unacceptable & audible level.
2)Maybe a longer capstan in the Chamberlin 200
introduced some sort of engineering problem (bending,
more drag, bigger flywheel needed, thicker capstan
needed).
The last idea seems to be moot for later Chamberlin
production. I checked out the Musicmaster 600 on the
Moneypit site, and it has 40 keys on the left manual
(another weird keycount). The 600 capstan therefore
may be longer than that of a MKII.

-Bruce Daily
M400 #1221 (under repair & toothless)


--- Pomeroy Ranch <punchbowl4@...> wrote:

> It's my understanding that Harry did use other
> instruments (like bass
> clarinet, etc.) to get lower registers of some
> sounds, including the
> flute I believe..
> BTW - the left hand of my M2 Chamberlin only has 25
> notes.
>
> Vance
>
> I really wonder if the number was determined by a
> combination of; 1)the
> size
> of the keyboard that Harry had for his prototype,
> 2)the number of tape
> heads
> he had available, and 3)the range of whatever sound
> he used for his
> first
> experiments.

> Frank



____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-01 by leetronhead

only 25 keys????????
you have one of the defective ones...
please return it to me for a full refund
Willy Chamberlin




--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Pomeroy Ranch"
<punchbowl4@...> wrote:
>
> It's my understanding that Harry did use other instruments (like
bass
> clarinet, etc.) to get lower registers of some sounds, including the
> flute I believe..
> BTW - the left hand of my M2 Chamberlin only has 25 notes.
>
> Vance
>
> I really wonder if the number was determined by a combination of; 1)
the
> size
> of the keyboard that Harry had for his prototype, 2)the number of
tape
> heads
> he had available, and 3)the range of whatever sound he used for his
> first
> experiments.
> Perhaps it was that when he listened back to the recordings of
> instruments played back, the higher notes just sounded too weird. I
> still believe that the 35 note range was the only useful one.
Perhaps he
> could have gone a bit lower on some instruments and higher on
others,
> but overall, the 35 we have now was a compromise. Even now, boys
choir
> does not sound like anything of this earth in the higher registers.
How
> far up could you go with flute? Or Down? 8 choir is already doubled
in
> the right end. Obviously the Bradleys agreed.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> _____
>
> See what's free at AOL.com
> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
>

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Rick Blechta


On Jun 1, 2007, at 7:44 AM, ceccles_ca wrote:

That sounds right. A standard Clarinet also starts at the low G like
violin. Some wind instruments can't produce 35 notes. It makes me
wonder how they recorded trumpet and french horn. (33 notes and they
don't start at G). A lot of butt-cheek clenching on those high notes.

You recorded french horn Rick. How did you get 35 notes?

Okay, a couple of things here:

Clay, the standard clarinet (Bb soprano) goes down to low D, so when I recorded the great Hoolio Smerdon, we cut off some of the lower notes. For the bass clarinet, though, we recorded a number of the low Cs (it goes a whole tone lower than the soprano), so that Martin could slow down the pitches and get it down another 4th which takes it into the contrabass clarinet range. Why not use a contrabass clarinet, you say? Because it doesn't sound quite like a bass clarinet. We tried it. Think of the lower fourth of the mellotron cello tracks where they used a string bass since the cellist refused to de-tune his cello and you'll get the idea -- although the contrabass clarinet wasn't quite as bad as that.

The French horn actually has the greatest range of any wind (he said proudly), so I wasn't stressed at all since I started the tracks on low D (well above the lowest note that can be played on the instrument and only had to play up to a high C (horn is pitched a perfect 5th below the note on the mellotron keyboard. However, if you want to have a true butt-clenching experience, redo the trumpet track because you have to hold a G above high C for 8 perfect seconds. That's Maynard Ferguson territory, my friend -- and also why the trumpet mellotron top note begins in such an "interesting" way.

All winds can produce at least 35 notes, but you might not want to hear all of them -- especially over and over on your mellotron keyboard.

By the way, we're in the middle of recording baritone sax and it promises to be the mother of all mellotron sounds. The bass clarinet fades into insignificance by comparison. Make children cry, make sensitive women faint, crank it up and blow the idiot next door with his huge-ass stereo into the next county, get the Streetly baritone sax voice for your mellotron. Brass? We don't need no stinking brass!

Rick


Re: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by jonesalley

I've noticed those short left keyboards on some models myself. Are those accompaniments or lead?
----- Original Me

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by jonesalley

Willy Chamberlin? Wasn't he the promiscuous basketball player?


----- Original Message -----
From: "leetronhead" <surfbeach@...>
To: <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes


> only 25 keys????????
> you have one of the defective ones...
> please return it to me for a full refund
> Willy Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Pomeroy Ranch"
> <punchbowl4@...> wrote:
>>
>> It's my understanding that Harry did use other instruments (like
> bass
>> clarinet, etc.) to get lower registers of some sounds, including the
>> flute I believe..
>> BTW - the left hand of my M2 Chamberlin only has 25 notes.
>>
>> Vance
>>
>> I really wonder if the number was determined by a combination of; 1)
> the
>> size
>> of the keyboard that Harry had for his prototype, 2)the number of
> tape
>> heads
>> he had available, and 3)the range of whatever sound he used for his
>> first
>> experiments.
>> Perhaps it was that when he listened back to the recordings of
>> instruments played back, the higher notes just sounded too weird. I
>> still believe that the 35 note range was the only useful one.
> Perhaps he
>> could have gone a bit lower on some instruments and higher on
> others,
>> but overall, the 35 we have now was a compromise. Even now, boys
> choir
>> does not sound like anything of this earth in the higher registers.
> How
>> far up could you go with flute? Or Down? 8 choir is already doubled
> in
>> the right end. Obviously the Bradleys agreed.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> See what's free at AOL.com
>> <http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by James Bailey

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "jonesalley" <jonesalley@...> wrote:
>
> Willy Chamberlin? Wasn't he the promiscuous basketball player?

You mean the guy who wrote a song for his mother that Sir Paul copped
for "Sgt. Pepper's"?

"Will you still need me,
Will you still feed me,
When I'm six-feet four?"

Jim Bailey
(cringing behind non-existant 'tron....oh, wait a minute...)

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by James Bailey

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Pomeroy Ranch" <punchbowl4@...>
wrote:
>
> The Chamberlin M's don't have choirs - a most regrettable situation -
> they have solo voices. I have the female voice on my 25-note left hand -
> and , wow, I can't imagine that old lady hitting anything higher; for
> the high notes that she does sing: think slightly painful church choir
> solo.whew! She is used effectively, in her middle range, on the Ethos
> Ardour album - the band with one Mellotronist and one Chamberlinist.

Think yourself lucky Harry didn't have access to the (fortunately)
inimitable Florence Foster Jenkins:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Foster_Jenkins

Jim Bailey

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by leetronhead

WOW!!! Would I like to be the only guy on the block with a rack that
included Anita Bryant solo voice...I would then be "KING TRON"!!!





--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "James Bailey" <jimab@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "Pomeroy Ranch" <punchbowl4@>
> wrote:
> >
> > The Chamberlin M's don't have choirs - a most regrettable
situation -
> > they have solo voices. I have the female voice on my 25-note left
hand -
> > and , wow, I can't imagine that old lady hitting anything higher;
for
> > the high notes that she does sing: think slightly painful church
choir
> > solo.whew! She is used effectively, in her middle range, on the
Ethos
> > Ardour album - the band with one Mellotronist and one
Chamberlinist.
>
> Think yourself lucky Harry didn't have access to the (fortunately)
> inimitable Florence Foster Jenkins:
>






> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Foster_Jenkins
>
> Jim Bailey
>

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by leetronhead

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "James Bailey" <jimab@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, "jonesalley" <jonesalley@>
wrote:
> >
> > Willy Chamberlin? Wasn't he the promiscuous basketball player?
>
> You mean the guy who wrote a song for his mother that Sir Paul copped
> for "Sgt. Pepper's"?
>
> "Will you still need me,
> Will you still feed me,
> When I'm six-feet four?"
>
> Jim Bailey
> (cringing behind non-existant 'tron....oh, wait a minute...)
>
NO, NO,...that would be my cousin Wilt,...I never did get lucky and get
laid,
Willy

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Rick Blechta


On Jun 2, 2007, at 11:52 AM, leetronhead wrote:

WOW!!! Would I like to be the only guy on the block with a rack that
included Anita Bryant solo voice...I would then be "KING TRON"!!!

A guy with a rack. The mind boggles.

Rick

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by leetronhead

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Rick Blechta <rick@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 2, 2007, at 11:52 AM, leetronhead wrote:
>
> > WOW!!! Would I like to be the only guy on the block with a rack that
> > included Anita Bryant solo voice...I would then be "KING TRON"!!!
>
> A guy with a rack. The mind boggles.
>
> Rick
>
Ya sure as hell won't see a rack on Ms. Bryant now, would ya?

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by leetronhead

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Rick Blechta <rick@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 2, 2007, at 11:52 AM, leetronhead wrote:
>
> > WOW!!! Would I like to be the only guy on the block with a rack that
> > included Anita Bryant solo voice...I would then be "KING TRON"!!!
>
> A guy with a rack. The mind boggles.
>
> Rick
>
Ya sure as hell won't see a rack on Ms. Bryant now, would ya?

RE: [Mellotronists] 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Pomeroy Ranch

Leads….the tape sets on all the M2’s and M4’s I’m familiar with were leads…



(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

RE: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Pomeroy Ranch

But Harry would have had access to Mrs. Miller (whom I am glad to see is linked from Mrs Jenkins wiki article…) – since she lived just a few miles from Harry (Upland

(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Bernie

> By the way, we're in the middle of recording baritone sax and it
> promises to be the mother of all mellotron sounds. The bass clarinet
> fades into insignificance by comparison. Make children cry, make
> sensitive women faint, crank it up and blow the idiot next door with
> his huge-ass stereo into the next county, get the Streetly baritone
> sax voice for your mellotron. Brass? We don't need no stinking brass!
>
> Rick
>

Rick, are there any other instruments in the works besides the baritone
sax?

Bernie

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Mark Wallis

Mr Dickson!

Are you perchance referring to the Opening Cannonade of The Battle Of
Austerlitz?

msw


>From: Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@...>
>Reply-To: mike.dickson@...
>To: Rick Blechta <rick@...>
>CC: Mellotronist's List <Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes
>Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:08:49 +0100
>
>Rick Blechta wrote:
> > The French horn actually has the greatest range of any wind (he said
> > proudly)
>I dispute that.
>
>--
>
>Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
>The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
>Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Rick Blechta

On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:08 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:

> Rick Blechta wrote:
>> The French horn actually has the greatest range of any wind (he
>> said proudly)
> I dispute that.

On what grounds?

The range of a French horn (not all notes great for normal everyday
use, granted) is 4 1/2 octaves and it could go higher still, but none
dare do that on a regular basis. There is one piece by the American
Horn Quartet that utilizes this much range. I'll try to dig it out
and post it to you. It's pretty amazing.

None of the woodwinds can do that and none of the other brass
instruments can do that because they utilize a harmonic series that's
an octave lower. The range is the blessing of the horn but the
tradeoff is that you have to deal with that horrible pitch insecurity.

Respectively yours,

Richard M. Blechta, Esq.

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by jonesalley

"horrible pitch insecurity"

Caused by??? Size? Shape? Bore and resulting air pressure needed? Please
expound a bit?

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Rick Blechta

On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:

> Rick Blechta wrote:
>> Rick Blechta wrote:
>>>> The French horn actually has the greatest range of any wind (he
>>>> said proudly)
>>>>
>>> I dispute that.
>>>
>> On what grounds?
>>
> My arse-blastings can cover a distance of about seventy yards.
> Fairly impressive range, I'd say.


Those who have been around you, Michael, will know that I have no
grounds on which to dispute that. I concede (holding my nose).

Rick (typed one-handed because I'm holding my nose)

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Mike Dickson

Rick Blechta wrote:
Rick Blechta wrote:
The French horn actually has the greatest range of any wind (he  
said proudly)
      
I dispute that.
    
On what grounds?
My arse-blastings can cover a distance of about seventy yards. Fairly impressive range, I'd say.
-- 

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Rick Blechta


On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:31 PM, jonesalley wrote:

"horrible pitch insecurity"

Caused by??? Size? Shape? Bore and resulting air pressure needed? Please
expound a bit?

French horn 101

All brasses work off a harmonic series of overtones. Actually, all instruments do, but let's not worry about them for now.

Originally, brasses had no valves. They weren't invented yet. We're talking pre 1825 or so here. All brass players had to play their instruments by tightening and loosening their lips, causing the buzzing (and resulting notes) to be faster (higher) or slower (lower). The harmonic overtone series (utilized by gradually tightening the lips) goes as follows: fundamental (the lowest note possible -- dictated by the length of the instrument -- octave, fifth, octave, third, fifth, and so on (Go here for a chart: http://www.smu.edu/totw/overtone.htm). This is actually the written out series of overtones produced by the horn. The trumpet's overtone series, for eample, is pitched an octave higher. On French horn, I can play all the notes on this chart, using no valves, simply by gradually tightening my lips and pushing more air through the instrument.

Trumpet, trombone, tuba, euphonium, etc. use the lowest part of the overtone series for the majority of their normal notes. Not only that, their mouthpieces match the size of the instrument (part of what dictates their comfortable placement in the overtone series. French horn, on the other hand, is the length of a tuba (roughly) and uses the smallest mouthpiece, making it possible to play higher in the overtone series with greater ease. (The smaller the mouthpiece, the easier it is to vibrate your lips faster.)

The insecurity of pitches (in other words, being able to get lip tension exactly correct to hit the note you want dead on, or actually hitting the wrong overtone altogether) comes from playing at the upper end of the overtone series where the notes are much closer together. It's much easier to miss in this section because you have to have really accurate lip tension.

So you can see why the French horn was used much more in orchestral music back when brasses had no valves. In a nutshell, they could play more notes. When valves were invented, it allowed brass instruments to now play all pitches. By pressing down the valves (or combinations of valves) you add more length to the instrument and change its overtone series. The second valve lowers the overtone series by a semitone. The first valve lowers it by a whole tone. The third valve lowers it by a tone and a half. If you write this all out, you'll see that not only can you play far more notes, you can also use different fingerings to play the same pitch in a lot of cases. Life got a lot better for brass players as the 18th century progressed.

All except the lowly trombone players. Their slide does the same thing and they've had that going all the way back to the sackbut. This is why they tend to be a bit 'odd'.

Now if you really want to screw things up, their was a valve system invented by Adolph Sax (yes, it's the same guy) that removes tubing from the instrument instead of adding it. Sadly, it never caught on because the other system was already in use. Sort of like an 1800s version of Beta vs. VHS.

Please read this over carefully. I'll be testing you on this chapter during our next class.

Rick

PS Well, you did ask...

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by jonesalley

I did ask, and I couldn't be happier with the explanation - THANKS!!!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes


On Jun 2, 2007, at 3:31 PM, jonesalley wrote:

"horrible pitch insecurity"

Caused by??? Size? Shape? Bore and resulting air pressure needed? Please
expound a bit?

French horn 101

All brasses work off a harmonic series of overtones. Actually, all instruments do, but let's not worry about them for now.

Originally, brasses had no valves. They weren't invented yet. We're talking pre 1825 or so here. All brass players had to play their instruments by tightening and loosening their lips, causing the buzzing (and resulting notes) to be faster (higher) or slower (lower). The harmonic overtone series (utilized by gradually tightening the lips) goes as follows: fundamental (the lowest note possible -- dictated by the length of the instrument -- octave, fifth, octave, third, fifth, and so on (Go here for a chart: http://www.smu.edu/totw/overtone.htm). This is actually the written out series of overtones produced by the horn. The trumpet's overtone series, for eample, is pitched an octave higher. On French horn, I can play all the notes on this chart, using no valves, simply by gradually tightening my lips and pushing more air through the instrument.

Trumpet, trombone, tuba, euphonium, etc. use the lowest part of the overtone series for the majority of their normal notes. Not only that, their mouthpieces match the size of the instrument (part of what dictates their comfortable placement in the overtone series. French horn, on the other hand, is the length of a tuba (roughly) and uses the smallest mouthpiece, making it possible to play higher in the overtone series with greater ease. (The smaller the mouthpiece, the easier it is to vibrate your lips faster.)

The insecurity of pitches (in other words, being able to get lip tension exactly correct to hit the note you want dead on, or actually hitting the wrong overtone altogether) comes from playing at the upper end of the overtone series where the notes are much closer together. It's much easier to miss in this section because you have to have really accurate lip tension.

So you can see why the French horn was used much more in orchestral music back when brasses had no valves. In a nutshell, they could play more notes. When valves were invented, it allowed brass instruments to now play all pitches. By pressing down the valves (or combinations of valves) you add more length to the instrument and change its overtone series. The second valve lowers the overtone series by a semitone. The first valve lowers it by a whole tone. The third valve lowers it by a tone and a half. If you write this all out, you'll see that not only can you play far more notes, you can also use different fingerings to play the same pitch in a lot of cases. Life got a lot better for brass players as the 18th century progressed.

All except the lowly trombone players. Their slide does the same thing and they've had that going all the way back to the sackbut. This is why they tend to be a bit 'odd'.

Now if you really want to screw things up, their was a valve system invented by Adolph Sax (yes, it's the same guy) that removes tubing from the instrument instead of adding it. Sadly, it never caught on because the other system was already in use. Sort of like an 1800s version of Beta vs. VHS.

Please read this over carefully. I'll be testing you on this chapter during our next class.

Rick

PS Well, you did ask...

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by NormLeete@aol.com

In a message dated 02/06/2007 03:50:58 GMT Standard Time, rick@... writes:
The bass clarinet fades into insignificance
I find that hard to believe, it was one of my favourite new sounds that i hadn't heard before on the prototype M4000.
Norm

Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by ceccles_ca

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@...>
wrote:

> My arse-blastings can cover a distance of about seventy yards.
Fairly impressive range, I'd say.

Dickson's "Evil Wind" is a different category of wind instrument.
Impressive...but in a twisted, offensive, demented way.

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Rick Blechta


On Jun 2, 2007, at 5:08 PM, NormLeete@... wrote:

In a message dated 02/06/2007 03:50:58 GMT Standard Time, rick@... writes:
The bass clarinet fades into insignificance
I find that hard to believe, it was one of my favourite new sounds that i hadn't heard before on the prototype M4000.
Norm

Think bass clarinet with massive amounts of steroids and a very bad attitude...

You may be able to replace the bass player in your band. If nothing else, it will make him very envious.

We hope to have the masters winging their way to Streetly before the end of the month. You just wait!

Rick

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by Bruce Daily

--- ceccles_ca <ecclesreinson@...> wrote:

> --- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dickson
> <mike.dickson@...>
> wrote:
>
> > My arse-blastings can cover a distance of about
> seventy yards.
> Fairly impressive range, I'd say.
>
> Dickson's "Evil Wind" is a different category of
> wind instrument.
> Impressive...but in a twisted, offensive, demented
> way.
>
>
>
I profess to no horn or "wind" abilities myself
(except after southwestern cusine). However, it
would've been interesting if the great French
"fartiste" le Petomane could've recorded the entire 35
note range for the Mellotron....

-Bruce Daily

(shades of Blazing Saddles!!!)




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Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-02 by jonesalley

"an ill wind that nobody blows good"




>>
>> > My arse-blastings can cover a distance of about
>> seventy yards.
>> Fairly impressive range, I'd say.
>>
>> Dickson's "Evil Wind" is a different category of
>> wind instrument.
>> Impressive...but in a twisted, offensive, demented
>> way.
>>
> I profess to no horn or "wind" abilities myself
> (except after southwestern cusine). However, it
> would've been interesting if the great French
> "fartiste" le Petomane could've recorded the entire 35
> note range for the Mellotron....

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 6/2/2007 3:47:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rick@... writes:
My arse-blastings can cover a distance of about seventy yards.
> Fairly impressive range, I'd say.

Those who have been around you, Michael, will know that I have no
grounds on which to dispute that. I concede (holding my nose).

Rick (typed one-handed because I'm holding my nose)
That's nothing. Mine follow me from room to room like a loyal dog.
Wallace Purgis



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Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 6/2/2007 4:16:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rick@... writes:
French horn 101

All brasses work off a harmonic series of overtones. Actually, all instruments do, but let's not worry about them for now.

Originally, brasses had no valves. They weren't invented yet. We're talking pre 1825 or so here. All brass players had to play their instruments by tightening and loosening their lips, causing the buzzing (and resulting notes) to be faster (higher) or slower (lower). The harmonic overtone series (utilized by gradually tightening the lips) goes as follows: fundamental (the lowest note possible -- dictated by the length of the instrument -- octave, fifth, octave, third, fifth, and so on (Go here for a chart: http://www.smu. edu/totw/ overtone. htm). This is actually the written out series of overtones produced by the horn. The trumpet's overtone series, for eample, is pitched an octave higher. On French horn, I can play all the notes on this chart, using no valves, simply by gradually tightening my lips and pushing more air through the instrument.

Trumpet, trombone, tuba, euphonium, etc. use the lowest part of the overtone series for the majority of their normal notes. Not only that, their mouthpieces match the size of the instrument (part of what dictates their comfortable placement in the overtone series. French horn, on the other hand, is the length of a tuba (roughly) and uses the smallest mouthpiece, making it possible to play higher in the overtone series with greater ease. (The smaller the mouthpiece, the easier it is to vibrate your lips faster.)

The insecurity of pitches (in other words, being able to get lip tension exactly correct to hit the note you want dead on, or actually hitting the wrong overtone altogether) comes from playing at the upper end of the overtone series where the notes are much closer together. It's much easier to miss in this section because you have to have really accurate lip tension.

So you can see why the French horn was used much more in orchestral music back when brasses had no valves. In a nutshell, they could play more notes. When valves were invented, it allowed brass instruments to now play all pitches. By pressing down the valves (or combinations of valves) you add more length to the instrument and change its overtone series. The second valve lowers the overtone series by a semitone. The first valve lowers it by a whole tone. The third valve lowers it by a tone and a half. If you write this all out, you'll see that not only can you play far more notes, you can also use different fingerings to play the same pitch in a lot of cases. Life got a lot better for brass players as the 18th century progressed.

All except the lowly trombone players. Their slide does the same thing and they've had that going all the way back to the sackbut. This is why they tend to be a bit 'odd'.

Now if you really want to screw things up, their was a valve system invented by Adolph Sax (yes, it's the same guy) that removes tubing from the instrument instead of adding it. Sadly, it never caught on because the other system was already in use. Sort of like an 1800s version of Beta vs. VHS.

Please read this over carefully. I'll be testing you on this chapter during our next class.

Rick

PS Well, you did ask...
Rick,
Would you mind going into a bit more detail here instead of just glossing over it?
Thanks,
Slarty



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Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 6/2/2007 6:50:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonesalley@... writes:
I profess to no horn or "wind" abilities myself
> (except after southwestern cusine). However, it
> would've been interesting if the great French
> "fartiste" le Petomane could've recorded the entire 35
> note range for the Mellotron... .
The Brits have Mr Methane, perhaps the greatest virtuoso farter on the planet. I would think he would be a happy to record some new sounds for the Streetly library.



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Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by Rick Blechta


On Jun 3, 2007, at 12:20 AM, lsf5275@... wrote:

Rick,
Would you mind going into a bit more detail here instead of just glossing over it?
Thanks,
Slarty

You're right. Hell with all the theory stuff.

Just take a length of garden hose, stick a funnel in one end, blow in the other end, buzzing your lips, and you'll figure everything out by yourself. Who needs the long-winded explanation.

Besides it sound pretty well like a French horn anyway. If you roll it around your right shoulder, it also looks like a French horn.

Rick

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by Rick Blechta

On Jun 2, 2007, at 2:29 PM, Bernie wrote:

Rick, are there any other instruments in the works besides the baritone
sax?

Bernie

At the moment, no. I can see the use for a re-recorded trumpet sound and it might be nice to do MkII brass (trumpet, tenor sax and trombone), recording all three instruments together rather than separately and then mixing the tracks. First off, I think the tuning would be far better and so would the blend. It would probably sound pretty different, though.

We'll see...

Got to finish that bari sax first, though. I'm not kidding, Norm; it will be amazing. We also may do a double-tracked one just to ramp it up a little more. Martin's already terrified of it and he hasn't even heard it.

Rick


Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by lsf5275@aol.com

In a message dated 6/3/2007 9:43:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rick@... writes:
You're right. Hell with all the theory stuff.

Just take a length of garden hose, stick a funnel in one end, blow in the other end, buzzing your lips, and you'll figure everything out by yourself. Who needs the long-winded explanation.

Besides it sound pretty well like a French horn anyway. If you roll it around your right shoulder, it also looks like a French horn.

Rick
You're right, it works. I am now, apparently, the first French Hose player on the street. I started with a 6 inch oil funnel and some caulk to hold it in place. Over the last several hours I've ground the funnel down to about a 1 inch diameter. I also shortened the hose from 50 feet to 12. The improvements have been many. Now I can see better when I am marching around in my front yard. Also, although I appear to have lost a bit in the lower notes, I seem to have a much greater range and far better tonality. I also don't seem to be hyperventilating as often. There was one moment earlier in which I was so caught up in my performance that suddenly everything went dark and the next thing I new I was falling into a grouping of freshly planted boxwoods. Silly! I must work on breath control.
Thanks,
Slarty



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[Mellotronists] Ebay madness..

2007-06-03 by Mark Wallis

Hi All,


Somebody has just paid 200 Euros (such an uncharismatic currency..) or �136
(!!) for a 'Mellotron volume pedal', otherwise known as a
colorsound/solasound swell pedal with a hard-wired cable and no sockets.

Wow..

By the way, do any of our English friends want any repair work doing? I
specialise in Hammonds, Vox Continentals, Clavinets, Rhodes, Wurlies.. valve
amps...

MSW

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Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by Bruce Daily

--- lsf5275@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 6/2/2007 6:50:30 P.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> jonesalley@... writes:
>
> I profess to no horn or "wind" abilities myself
> > (except after southwestern cusine). However, it
> > would've been interesting if the great French
> > "fartiste" le Petomane could've recorded the
> entire 35
> > note range for the Mellotron...
>
>
>
> The Brits have Mr Methane, perhaps the greatest
> virtuoso farter on the
> planet. I would think he would be a happy to record
> some new sounds for the
> Streetly library.
>
>
>
Yeah! I can see it now! A tape rack with "Cat",
"Mr Methane" & "Yodelers". A true classic!

-Bruce D.




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Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by john barrick

Bruce Daily wrote:
>
>>> note range for the Mellotron...
>>>
>>
>> The Brits have Mr Methane, perhaps the greatest
>> virtuoso farter on the
>> planet. I would think he would be a happy to record
>> some new sounds for the
>> Streetly library.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Yeah! I can see it now! A tape rack with "Cat",
> "Mr Methane" & "Yodelers". A true classic!
>
> -Bruce D.
>
Bruce,
with such a frame, you'd certainly be ready to lay down audio sweetening
for Ren & Stimpy.

john

Re: [Mellotronists] Re: 35 Notes

2007-06-03 by Mike Dickson

Bruce Daily wrote:
> Yeah! I can see it now! A tape rack with "Cat",
> "Mr Methane" & "Yodelers". A true classic!
>

You'd be *amazed* at how many people think the 'cat' story is real.

Once you see how many of them are Canadians you'd probably be less amazed.

--
Mike Dickson, Edinburgh