Mellotronists

Andy T.
M400 #1145

http://freespace.virgin.net/andy.thompson/

<< I've just had a friend ask me about Genesis' 'Stagnation', from 'Trespass',
and whether I think it's Mellotron mandolins on the intro and at about 6.11
into the song. I can't offhand think of any other definite use of the sound
to compare it with. Any ideas? >>

sherlock holmes here, visiting duncan for some drugs and a tour of the
biggest private collection of tape recorders in north london. he reckons.
andy, let's look at this tricky little question another way; if it *isn't*
the mellotron mandolin sound, then what on earth is it? the big feller get a
third neck on his rickenbacker? now, where's that bifter?


'scuse my houseguest. I promised I'd whittle a new bridge for his fiddle, and
give it's truss-rod a bit of a tweak. (I know, but this one's specially
strengthened for some reason).
reminded me, this query, of the time that a certain german band's 'tron tapes
were up for grabs and the boys had a list of sounds (in threes) to choose
from. one of them was "nylon strung guitar".... wtf were they doing with a
sound like that? we wondered..... but if you listen to "sorcerer", it's there
on "grind". I guess if you have the noises around long enough, they'll all
work their way into a track. we even used the oboe once..... damn near had
the wallpaper off......

er.... how are we going to recognise each other (not us two, andy) at the
hackett/glennie bash? I plan to sport a motorhead t-shirt, as I'm seated near
the front and want to see how the artistes cope with this.

duncan/m400nr1098 (keep that damn pipe away from me!)

-----Original Message-----
From: ferrograph@... [mailto:ferrograph@...]
Sent: 10 July 2002 13:05
To: mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] MkII mandolins


Duncan/all


<< I've just had a friend ask me about Genesis' 'Stagnation', from
'Trespass',
and whether I think it's Mellotron mandolins on the intro and at about 6.11
into the song. I can't offhand think of any other definite use of the sound
to compare it with. Any ideas? >>

andy, let's look at this tricky little question another way; if it *isn't*
the mellotron mandolin sound, then what on earth is it? the big feller get a
third neck on his rickenbacker? now, where's that bifter?


Well, the mate who asked me thought it was fast-strummed 12-string, possibly
with a capo, though it seems opinion's against him! He plays keys in yet
another Genesis tribute band, and I presume they're tackling 'White
Mountain'. I know I said 'Stagnation', but I meant 'White Mountain'. Don't
ask.


reminded me, this query, of the time that a certain german band's 'tron
tapes
were up for grabs and the boys had a list of sounds (in threes) to choose
from. one of them was "nylon strung guitar".... wtf were they doing with a
sound like that? we wondered..... but if you listen to "sorcerer", it's
there
on "grind".


Duncan's just pinpointed the major problem with 'Tronspotting - the common
sounds are all v.well, but what about mandos or nylon guitar, for example?
I've done quite a bit of this while reviewing stuff for my site, and I'm
well aware that I've probably missed tracks and sounds, but if I don't even
know what the band used... On this subject, what about Peter Baumann's
'Romance 76'? I can hear various 'Tron sounds, including (I think) piano and
tubular bells, but if any of you have sharper hearing...


er.... how are we going to recognise each other (not us two, andy) at the
hackett/glennie bash? I plan to sport a motorhead t-shirt, as I'm seated
near
the front and want to see how the artistes cope with this.


Excellent! I haven't got a ticket yet, Dunc - cashflow problems - but I hope
to be there, in which case I'll spot John Armes for you.

Andy T.
M400 #1145

http://freespace.virgin.net/andy.thompson/

Hi Guys,
Regarding this Stagnation/White Mountain thing - I have a
recording of White Mountain done live in 76, so that's definately
fast strummed 12 strings. Don't know about the original though.
Incidentally for the middle bit of the live version they used very loud
8 choir and Taurus pedals stamping up and down on the rhythm.
Stunning!
John

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ferrograph@... [mailto:ferrograph@...]
> Sent: 10 July 2002 13:05
> To: mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] MkII mandolins
>
>
> Duncan/all
>
>
> << I've just had a friend ask me about Genesis' 'Stagnation', from
> 'Trespass', and whether I think it's Mellotron mandolins on the intro
> and at about 6.11 into the song. I can't offhand think of any other
> definite use of the sound to compare it with. Any ideas? >>
>
> andy, let's look at this tricky little question another way; if it
> *isn't* the mellotron mandolin sound, then what on earth is it? the
> big feller get a third neck on his rickenbacker? now, where's that
> bifter?
>
>
> Well, the mate who asked me thought it was fast-strummed 12-string,
> possibly with a capo, though it seems opinion's against him! He plays
> keys in yet another Genesis tribute band, and I presume they're
> tackling 'White Mountain'. I know I said 'Stagnation', but I meant
> 'White Mountain'. Don't ask.
>
>
> reminded me, this query, of the time that a certain german band's
> 'tron tapes were up for grabs and the boys had a list of sounds (in
> threes) to choose from. one of them was "nylon strung guitar".... wtf
> were they doing with a sound like that? we wondered..... but if you
> listen to "sorcerer", it's there on "grind".
>
>
> Duncan's just pinpointed the major problem with 'Tronspotting - the
> common sounds are all v.well, but what about mandos or nylon guitar,
> for example? I've done quite a bit of this while reviewing stuff for
> my site, and I'm well aware that I've probably missed tracks and
> sounds, but if I don't even know what the band used... On this
> subject, what about Peter Baumann's 'Romance 76'? I can hear various
> 'Tron sounds, including (I think) piano and tubular bells, but if any
> of you have sharper hearing...
>
>
> er.... how are we going to recognise each other (not us two, andy) at
> the hackett/glennie bash? I plan to sport a motorhead t-shirt, as I'm
> seated near the front and want to see how the artistes cope with this.
>
>
> Excellent! I haven't got a ticket yet, Dunc - cashflow problems - but
> I hope to be there, in which case I'll spot John Armes for you.
>
> Andy T.
> M400 #1145
>
> http://freespace.virgin.net/andy.thompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Have that live version, too and agree with the fast strumming 12 string.
The 8 choir sounds great and is an excellent improvement (Bruford's gong
percussion adds a dramatic edge, too) on the song-- sort of like how the 8
voice choir definitely improves the end of "Afterglow" on 'Seconds Out',
which to me is an example of how the Mellotron, under the right hands, can
transfer a sing-songy pop tune into a heart wrenching, progressive epic.
Wish they would have done that on the studio version (is there a reason why
they didn't?). It would have provided a more appropriate and dramatic
climax to "Unquiet Slumbers For The Sleepers... ... In That Quiet Earth".

Jimmy P.

-----Original Message-----
From: J.K.Beresford [mailto:j.k.beresford@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 4:15 AM
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Mellotronists] MkII mandolins


Hi Guys,
Regarding this Stagnation/White Mountain thing - I have a
recording of White Mountain done live in 76, so that's definately
fast strummed 12 strings. Don't know about the original though.
Incidentally for the middle bit of the live version they used very loud
8 choir and Taurus pedals stamping up and down on the rhythm.
Stunning!
John

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ferrograph@... [mailto:ferrograph@...]
> Sent: 10 July 2002 13:05
> To: mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Mellotronists] MkII mandolins
>
>
> Duncan/all
>
>
> << I've just had a friend ask me about Genesis' 'Stagnation', from
> 'Trespass', and whether I think it's Mellotron mandolins on the intro
> and at about 6.11 into the song. I can't offhand think of any other
> definite use of the sound to compare it with. Any ideas? >>
>
> andy, let's look at this tricky little question another way; if it
> *isn't* the mellotron mandolin sound, then what on earth is it? the
> big feller get a third neck on his rickenbacker? now, where's that
> bifter?
>
>
> Well, the mate who asked me thought it was fast-strummed 12-string,
> possibly with a capo, though it seems opinion's against him! He plays
> keys in yet another Genesis tribute band, and I presume they're
> tackling 'White Mountain'. I know I said 'Stagnation', but I meant
> 'White Mountain'. Don't ask.
>
>
> reminded me, this query, of the time that a certain german band's
> 'tron tapes were up for grabs and the boys had a list of sounds (in
> threes) to choose from. one of them was "nylon strung guitar".... wtf
> were they doing with a sound like that? we wondered..... but if you
> listen to "sorcerer", it's there on "grind".
>
>
> Duncan's just pinpointed the major problem with 'Tronspotting - the
> common sounds are all v.well, but what about mandos or nylon guitar,
> for example? I've done quite a bit of this while reviewing stuff for
> my site, and I'm well aware that I've probably missed tracks and
> sounds, but if I don't even know what the band used... On this
> subject, what about Peter Baumann's 'Romance 76'? I can hear various
> 'Tron sounds, including (I think) piano and tubular bells, but if any
> of you have sharper hearing...
>
>
> er.... how are we going to recognise each other (not us two, andy) at
> the hackett/glennie bash? I plan to sport a motorhead t-shirt, as I'm
> seated near the front and want to see how the artistes cope with this.
>
>
> Excellent! I haven't got a ticket yet, Dunc - cashflow problems - but
> I hope to be there, in which case I'll spot John Armes for you.
>
> Andy T.
> M400 #1145
>
> http://freespace.virgin.net/andy.thompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/iWZylB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~
> ->
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Genesis appears to have had a strict policy for studio recordings
where they'd always arrange the music "as if live", so nobody is
playing a combination of instruments they couldn't play in a live
performance. I don't know how intentional this was, but it sure seems
consistant. If not obsessive.

Arranging a song "as if live" has a number of interesting effects:
Live performances can sound pretty much exactly like the studio
recordings.

There's a certain sense of musical honesty.

The listener can very easily imagine a live performance in their
head and picture what each member of the band is doing. (One could
even argue that this effectively increases the value of your hifi
system, since lifelike sound is what you pay for.)

Some arrangements are completely dependent on Mike Rutherford's bass
pedals and double-neck.

And you can deduce how they pulled off some of the stuff they did.

Of course they dropped this policy after they were three. And
Trespass was pretty early, I doubt they had this thing fleshed out at
the time -- certainly there are piano/organ sections in Stagnation
that don't sound possible live. So in this particular case the policy
might not be helpful. Still, it's interesting.

-- Don

--
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don@...
http://www.till.com

Alesis MidiVerb II did someone request?.... $75.00 right now with no
reserve...


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892138048


-----Original Message-----
From: JS [mailto:jonesalley@...]
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 4:44 PM
To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fw: [Mellotronists] MkII mandolins


oops. meant to send to the group...

Jon E Salley
MiloJohnson@...
M400 #886

> Once again, I find myself comforted. That has been a long-standing policy
> of my own as well. I've always hated going to live shows and finding the
> arrangements weak and empty, missing a lot of the little touches and
> flourishes that made the songs' studio versions, and have therefore always
> been insistent to the point of really pissing people off about being able

to

> perform original material note-for-note in a live situation. I find it

also

> helps you be more creative, because if you want to put something in a

song,

> you have to figure out HOW instead of using the studio as a crutch.
>
> And regarding Alesis MicroVerb, I'm almost in exact accord there, too.

I'd

> kill to find another Alesis MidiVerb II. The big reverbs in patch 19 and

in

> patch 21 have always been the warmest, fullest reverbs I've ever heard,

even

> "nicer" sounding than the big Lexicons, etc. that people rave about.
>
> Jon E Salley
> MiloJohnson@...
> M400 #886
>
>
>
> >
> > Genesis appears to have had a strict policy for studio recordings
> > where they'd always arrange the music "as if live", so nobody is
> > playing a combination of instruments they couldn't play in a live
> > performance. I don't know how intentional this was, but it sure seems
> > consistant. If not obsessive.
> >
> > Arranging a song "as if live" has a number of interesting effects:
> > Live performances can sound pretty much exactly like the studio
> > recordings.
> >
> > There's a certain sense of musical honesty.
>
>

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