Mellotronists

-- 
derrick espino
phlizmo@... - email
(925) 695-2020 x7367 - voicemail/fax
 
Just want to say that Im very excited about next Wed Beck/FLaming Lips show in Oakland.. Both have been know to use tron/chamberin on their albums.. Though I havent noticed tron on the new Beck album it seems to be in many places on the AMAZING new Flaming Lips Record..
I dunno if you guys sit around just playing King Crimson or Moody records but you MUST hear the new album by the Lips, "Yoshimi Battles THe Pink Robots"!!! THe title alone should be enough to send you prog rockers raving and drooling to the local Best Buy! The album is very "new prog" and there appears to be as i mentioned use of 8 voice Choir as well as the 3 Violins.. And if any of you are sitting there going, "... the Flaming whats? then i think i got the wrong group!

Derrick Espino
MK VI #027



-----Original Message-----
From:     Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Sent:     23 Nov 2002 11:00:17 -0000
To:       Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
Subject:  [Mellotronists] Digest Number 262

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Mellotron Sound on TV
           From: kenmerb@...
      2. New Mellotron Sounds
           From: tron@...
      3. What if someone built...?
           From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
      4. Re: What if someone built...?
           From: Don Tillman <don@...>
      5. Re:what if someone built...?
           From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
      6. Speaking of Birotrons...
           From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
      7. SV: Re:what if someone built...?
           From: "Ivens de Carvalho" <dko4342@...>
      8. RE: What if someone built...?
           From: "Berend Dubbe" <bdubbe@...>
      9. RE: Re:what if someone built...?
           From: "Berend Dubbe" <bdubbe@...>
     10. Re: Re:what if someone built...?
           From: Don Tillman <don@...>
     11. Re: Re:what if someone built...?
           From: MAinPsych@...
     12. Re: What if someone built...?
           From: Ken Leonard <ken@...>
     13. Re: Re:what if someone built...?
           From: Ken Leonard <ken@...>
     14. Re: Re:what if someone built...?
           From: kenmerb@...


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:43:12 EST
   From: kenmerb@...
Subject: Mellotron Sound on TV

Hi guys,

     I just saw a Cottonel toilet paper commercial on TV which featured, I 
think, the MKII Mellotron rhythms (piano chords & flutes).  This was 
hilarious, showing the TP and a baby's butt.  Somewhat of an inside joke, so 
I thought I would share.  I think that someone may have already reported this 
the other day.

     Somewhat appropriate I thought, considering some of the problems I've 
been having with my *baby* lately ;-).
  
Ken M
 


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Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:50:27 GMT
   From: tron@...
Subject: New Mellotron Sounds

> But Mike, we prefer your little demos.  When I installed the new sounds on my
> MKII, there were no classic songs using these sounds ("Watcher" mix aside),
> so I found myself playing the little Mike Dickson demos.  Even now, whenever
> I fire up the Ray Jung fretless bass, I have to do that bass run to make it
> sound *official*.

Good god.  :-)

There's a mate of mine who came all the way down from Aberdeen to play
on my Mellotron. When I loaded up the I-McD flutes he started playing
something that I *vaguely recognised*. He told me that this was the
sample I had on Merb's website and that he had taken the time to learn
it!

> But seriously, its not a coincidence that most of the new sounds I
> purchased were the ones demo'd on your web site.

It doesn't surprise me - I'd be loathe to buy set of tapes without any
idea of what they sounded like. (Although I confess I more or les did
this with the Russian Choir) Seriously; I again restate the begging
notice. If anyone has tapes that are *unusual* for which there are no
samples (or even entries) in the below-mentioned website then get in
touch with me.

Mike Dickson (tron@...) M400 #996
The Official Cynic of Streetly Electronics
Streetly Sample Library http://www.blackcat.demon.co.uk/tron/


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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:46:41 -0000
   From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
Subject: What if someone built...?

  Given the popularity of the trons these days on records and in 
studios,wouldn't it be cool if someone built and designed a totally 
digital,dedicated "tron only" clone (like a Korg BX3 does a Hammond or 
any digital piano).It could house the entire tron/Chamberlin library 
in rom/ram,or perhaps a limited number of sounds when you buy it and 
then a cd rom drive(like for the Pinder CD) or cards for further 
purchases of sounds.A nice real wooden cabinet with authentic feeling 
wooden keys.I could envision something like the J Tron or M300 or even 
a MKII cabinet.The keyboard action could even be replicated,if need 
be.Multiple outputs,onboard digital effects,eq,etc.There could be a 
nice viewscreen for plotting splits/layers,programming,midi,etc.The 
sounds of course would be non-looped/every note sampled.Or perhaps the 
option to have looped versions available a/la Birotron.
 I realize any decent sampler can do these things but I am referring 
to a stand alone digital mellotron,dedicated to mellotron/Chamberlin 
sounds only.Perhaps even different models could be offered.A MKII 
clone with the left hand/right hand sounds the same as the 
original and onboard high quality speakers(JBL?Bose?).The knobs could 
be the same size,just controlling the digital functions.An M400/MK6 
clone for road use with lots more than 3 sounds onboard but the same 
classic white cabinet.And a helluva lot lighter weight.Perhaps even a 
rack mount version could be available.Martin?Markus?Any other ideas?
 The Mellotron MK 7!!!Coming soon to a music store near you? When tape 
stocks run out....
                                                     Charles
 



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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:02:36 -0800
   From: Don Tillman <don@...>
Subject: Re: What if someone built...?

   > From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
   > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:46:41 -0000
   > 
   >   Given the popularity of the trons these days on records and in 
   > studios,wouldn't it be cool if someone built and designed a totally 
   > digital,dedicated "tron only" clone 

No; it would be a horrible insult to the Mellotron in exactly the same
way digital pianos and other digital emulations are horrible insults
to the real instruments they're attempting to mimic.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don@...
http://www.till.com



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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:22:45 -0000
   From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
Subject: Re:what if someone built...?

Gee Don,INSULT? Don't you think that's akin to saying that a tron is 
insulting to real violinists?
 There are always going to be die hards who prefer the "real thing" to 
something new.But how many of you here use digital pianos in your gigs 
as opposed to carting around a real grand?I am talking about making an 
instrument that would be reliable for transporting in a live/concert 
situation without broken tapes,motor speed problems,hums,etc.Keep your 
"real" treasured tron at home and use the digital onstage for the 
same sounds.
 I personally LOVE playing Hammond B3s and Steinway Grands but would 
much rather,at age 50,deal with a Korg CX3 to move around or a digital 
piano rackmount.This is the point I was going for...as well as 
something for those of us who aren't so firmly single mindedly 
obsessed that only the REAL thing is a valid instrument.I had an M400 
for 25 years.Now I use the E4K with the Pinder CD Rom disc and I love 
it.The average listener could not tell the difference so what's the 
big deal?                  Regards  Charles



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Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:34:21 -0000
   From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
Subject: Speaking of Birotrons...

didn't I read somewhere long ago that Dave Biro used two M400s to make 
the tapes for Birotrons? Crossfading between the same notes played on 
two machines?
  The tone quality of those things was always hard to distinguish in a 
mix....TORMATO and CRIMINAL RECORD have it buried in the background 
except the bit at the end of Don't Kill The Whale.Pretty nasaly,thin 
sounding.Wonder what the tone circuitry of those things was.
  I heard a story that Chris Squire once replaced a few of Rick's 
Birotron 8 track tapes with some cartridges of Mexican music before a 
rehearsal and when Rick reached up to play a part he really had a rude 
surprise.                                     Charles



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Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 23:54:16 +0100
   From: "Ivens de Carvalho" <dko4342@...>
Subject: SV: Re:what if someone built...?

Let me repeat the last 7 lines of your mail:
  > obsessed that only the REAL thing is a valid instrument.I had an M400
  > for 25 years.Now I use the E4K with the Pinder CD Rom disc and I love
  > it.The average listener could not tell the difference so what's the
  > big deal?                  Regards  Charles
  >
  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > Mellotronists-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

  Cheers

  Frank Carvalho
  -- Still stuck with sampling. Too many kids and too little money to buy
the real thing.



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Message: 8
   Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:12:28 +0100
   From: "Berend Dubbe" <bdubbe@...>
Subject: RE: What if someone built...?


  -----Original Message-----
  From: charel196 [mailto:charel196@...]
  Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 9:47 PM
  To: Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Mellotronists] What if someone built...?


    Given the popularity of the trons these days on records and in
  studios,wouldn't it be cool if someone built and designed a totally
  digital,dedicated "tron only" clone (like a Korg BX3 does a Hammond or
  any digital piano).

  Nooooooooooo! Keep the synthmodule peoples out! Then every dance track
will have Mellotron sounds on it!
  Pleeeeease no!


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Message: 9
   Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:13:50 +0100
   From: "Berend Dubbe" <bdubbe@...>
Subject: RE: Re:what if someone built...?


The average listener could not tell the difference so what's the 
big deal?                  Regards  Charles 

Charles!
That's the whole point!

best
Berend 


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Message: 10
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:14:44 -0800
   From: Don Tillman <don@...>
Subject: Re: Re:what if someone built...?

   > From: "charel196" <charel196@...>
   > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:22:45 -0000
   > 
   > Gee Don,INSULT? Don't you think that's akin to saying that a tron
   > is insulting to real violinists?

It sure would be if you played it with a bow and called it a 
"Violin Mk 7"! 

Actually the 'Tron probably did insult a lot of violinists before
folks realized it had a voice of it's own.

Ever played a Yamaha Clavinova?  Is there any argument that it's an
insult to acoustic pianos?

   >  There are always going to be die hards who prefer the "real thing" to 
   > something new.

It has nothing to do with die hards, it's more about the very act of
playing a musical instrument.  I mean, why do you play a musical
instrument at all?  Do you just like hitting buttons?  Do you like to
hear sounds?  'Doubtful.  More likely it's the visceral joy of
interacting with an interesting and wonderful noise-making process,
exploring and discovering it's capabilities, being able to use it as a
form of personal expression, and being inspired by the noise-making
process to make great music.  Now y'r talking.

But you don't interact with digital emulations.  Digital samplers
arguably don't even have a "process" so there's no process to interact
with.  And so they're missing the fundamental point of being a musical
instrument.

Ie., you can't play the blues on a computer.

If you claim that only diehards can tell the difference, howcum it's
so difficult to find many truly memorable solos, riffs or themes
played on digital emulations?

What's worse, digital emulations are particular bad at responding to
the subtleties of personal expression.  Thus, it's really, really
difficult to recognize who's playing a digitial emulation; whether it
be Fripp, Wakeman, Pinder, heck even myself, or a computer.  In my
book that would disqualify them from being Musical Instruments.

Instead of coming up with yet another cheesy emulation, the noble
thing is to take the basic Mellotron mechanism and improve it.  And
hey, that's exactly what Dave/Markus's Mk VI does.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California, USA
don@...
http://www.till.com



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Message: 11
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:34:29 -0500
   From: MAinPsych@...
Subject: Re: Re:what if someone built...?

In a message dated 11/22/2002 5:50:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, MAinPsych writes:

> In a message dated 11/22/2002 4:22:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, charel196@... writes:
> 
> > This is the point I was going for...as well as something for 
> > those of us who aren't so firmly single mindedly obsessed 
> > that only the REAL thing is a valid instrument.I had an M400 
> > for 25 years.Now I use the E4K with the Pinder CD Rom disc 
> > and I love it.The average listener could not tell the 
> > difference so what's the big deal?

Several thoughts come to mind.  I started out with the Pinder CD before acquiring #908.  Thought it sounded fine live and in the studio until I did an A/B comparison once I had 908.  There was a marked difference, so pronounced that I rerecorded the tron tracks using the real thing.   Live, the CD still causes people to go "oooh" (and is a lot easier to carry!), but the "oohs" AND "aaahs" come out when they see the real thing.  But for the studio, give me a real tron anytime, anywhere.  As far as the average listener, they generally don't know their ass from a hole in the ground anyway.   Just listen to the shit being played on the radio for proof positive of that.  I certainly wouldn't base any decisions (musical or otherwise) on them.  But...to each his own.  One man's ceiling 
is another man's floor!

Frank Samagaio
M400 #908


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Message: 12
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 19:41:03 -0500
   From: Ken Leonard <ken@...>
Subject: Re: What if someone built...?

At 08:46 PM 11/22/2002 +0000, charel196 wrote:
>   Given the popularity of the trons these days on records and in
>studios,wouldn't it be cool if someone built and designed a totally
>digital,dedicated "tron only" clone (like a Korg BX3 does a Hammond or
>any digital piano).

Klaus Hoffmann-Hoock (avid 'tron enthusiast who may no longer have a 
machine, though) has set up a Kurzweil to be the mother of all 'tron sample 
players.  I guess he used all his own samples to create this and went for 
the utmost in authenticity.

Ken M - What's the nickname he has for it?  Megatron or something.

Easier to transport than a Mark II for sure---and much more versatile.

But...

- Ken M's Mark II made the hair on the back of my neck stand up when we 
first played his machine through the Wharfedales (3 violins, of course)

- My Hammond A-102 surrounds your legs with some wonderful analog goo as 
you play it (don't visualize)

I wouldn't truck them around to a gig, though...If I were gigging, it'd be 
the Korg X3 and the Roland M-VS1.  :-)

It's all what you're into, what's convenient for you, what you can afford, 
and personal preference.  Yadda-yadda.

..kl...M400 #805 - not sampled, never will be



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Message: 13
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:46:47 -0500
   From: Ken Leonard <ken@...>
Subject: Re: Re:what if someone built...?

At 09:22 PM 11/22/2002 +0000, charel196 wrote:
>Gee Don,INSULT? Don't you think that's akin to saying that a tron is
>insulting to real violinists?

I always thought 'trons to be insulting to real MUSICIANS---period. :-)

..kl...M400 #805 - heretic!



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Message: 14
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:07:42 EST
   From: kenmerb@...
Subject: Re: Re:what if someone built...?

In a message dated 11/22/02 6:17:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bdubbe@... writes:


> The average listener could not tell the difference so what's the 
> big deal?                  Regards  Charles 
>  
> Charles!
> That's the whole point
> 

Great line!  

I liken the appeal of the Mellotron to a dog whistle.  

Most people don't hear it, we purists tilt our heads and say "Woof?"

I own a MKII and a state-of-the-art Kurzweil 2600 XS workstation (similar to 
Klaus' MEGATRON setup whack KL mentioned) w/ Pinder CDROM .  If I ever play 
live, it will be with the Kurzweil, for ease of transport, reliability and 
flexibility reasons.  If I ever record, it will be with the MKII , totally 
for sound reasons.  I like the Kurzweil for many things, and it has some of 
the best sounds I have ever heard in a digital keyboard,  but it will never 
be a true Mellotron substitute.  For me, the "best of both worlds" (analog & 
digital) requires me to have two keyboards,  not one.

The feel of the Mellotron keyboard allows for more control of the music than 
the sterile feel of the weighted keyboard in my Kurzweil.  Also, I think that 
the interaction of the keys,  tape mechanism and tapes in a Mellotron create 
a unique sort of a delay type effect in the Mellotron sound that I haven't 
heard recreated in any sampler.  KL has an A/B comparison on his website 
which is an eye (ear) opener.

Having said that, I guess we shouldn't overlook the fact that the famous 
"RIME" CD apparently has as many Mellotron samples on it as it does real 
Mellotron notes.  I'm sure that not many people on this list of purists 
realized that before Martin Smith 'fessed up, in a rare moment  ;-).  So, I 
can argue both points here, I guess.

Ken M.


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