Apple Logic Pro /LogicExpress Discussion

> maybe a good mixer would think about exactly what item the 
> listener should be listening to, instead of leaving it to the 
> listener. And thus maybe make changes to eq and level when 
> things enter the mix, and then as they settle down, maybe 
> they should be dulled and brought down. Does anyone do this?

Yes. Just last night in fact. I had a brass part that I wanted the listener
to focus on and so I faded out the melody (slightly) and slowly brought the
brass to the front. Then reversed the process as that part became less
relevant.

Kamm

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, "Kamm Schreiner" <kamm@s...> wrote:
>  Just last night in fact. I had a brass part that I wanted the listener
> to focus on and so I faded out the melody (slightly) and slowly brought the
> brass to the front. Then reversed the process as that part became less
> relevant.


Kamm, thats great. Have you every changed the EQ, compression, amount of delay 
feedback or other things too in those cases? There are a million rock songs which start out 
with a cool guitar riff, then the band comes in and I can tell the level of the guitar goes 
does, but I am not sure if they also change the EQ and compreesion to make it all sit 
together. But it seems a bit picky at the same time.


By the way, last night there were two refurbished G5/dual 2.0's for$2000-$2100 on the 
Apple site - but  they are gone today! I noticed there are now "PCI-X" slots which are 
significantly father  than PCI slots. I wonder how long it will be before there is a UAudio or 
Powercore card for those new high speed slots.

> Kamm, thats great. Have you every changed the EQ, 
> compression, amount of delay feedback or other things too in 
> those cases?

Haven't ever done any of those things. Mostly because my music is all MIDI
based and I'd have to convert each individual track to audio to even try it
(except for the EQ). That gives me a little food for thought, though, and I
might try it because, on the same song, I just can't get the intro to sound
good. It starts out with just a piano and vocal track and goes straight into
the chorus.

Any ideas or tricks from you more experienced Pros on how to make the
piano/vocal duet sound better would be much appreciated.

Kamm

From: GAmoore@...


> One comment that Jack said got me thinking - that humans can only hear 
> a
> finite number of things at the same time. My uncle, who has a masters 
> in
> (classical style) music composition once told me something similar. 
> I'm thinking that
> maybe a good mixer would think about exactly what item the listener 
> should be
> listening to, instead of leaving it to the listener. And thus maybe 
> make
> changes to eq and level when things enter the mix, and then as they 
> settle down,
> maybe they should be dulled and brought down. Does anyone do this?

Two different ideas.

What your uncle said is a compositional thing. Most people can follow 
three lines - but that's only the first listening, and you can always 
hear the whole jigsaw puzzle even if you can't follow the lines. There 
are billions of examples of music that has way more than three lines 
going on, and even more billions of examples with lots of parts going 
on. I mean, just a typical rock song has a drum beat, bass line, a 
couple of rhythm parts, lead and bg vox, etc.

Your second idea, about mixing, is pretty common in orchestral mixing, 
in fact Keith Johnson suggests doing that in the EWQLSO manual. The 
idea is that you use a little more of the close mic position samples 
eq-ed up a little to call attention to important entrances, then back 
them off gradually. It's a subtle thing that can be very effective.

> One thing I have noticed is that leaving some sounds in, even if very 
> quiet
> still add to the feel. When playing back on monitors somewhat loud, 
> you bring
> the fader down (-20 db or so) and it seems to be dropping out, but 
> later when I
> burn to a CD and play in the car or the living room stereo, those 
> things are
> still quite present without being obtrusive.

That's because the car stereo has a very limited dynamic range.


Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101

On 27/12/2004, at 4:52 AM, GAmoore@... wrote:

> One comment that Jack said got me thinking - that humans can only hear 
> a finite number of things at the same time. My uncle, who has a 
> masters in (classical style) music composition once told me something 
> similar. I'm thinking that maybe a good mixer would think about 
> exactly what item the listener should be listening to, instead of 
> leaving it to the listener. And thus maybe make changes to eq and 
> level when things enter the mix, and then as they settle down, maybe 
> they should be dulled and brought down. Does anyone do this?

Absolutely. I will often bring in a new musical element a bit louder 
for a second or so to get the listeners attention and then bring it 
down. Particularly things like string lines...

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

> One comment that Jack said got me thinking - that humans can 
> only hear a finite number of things at the same time. 

Probably, and speaking for myself, I can hear a *lot* of things at
the same time, and the more familiar I become with a composition, the
more I can hear.  And then there's the issue of what is being heard
vs. what is being consciously perceived.


> I'm thinking that maybe a good mixer would think about exactly 
> what item the listener should be listening to, instead of leaving 
> it to the listener.

IMO this is what the producer is there for: to hear all the elements
of the song, and make certain that the strongest and/or most
appropriate elements are being emphasized at any given time.  There
are a lot of ways to do this, not the least of which is riding
faders.  But the most powerful tool in the arsenal has got to be the
mute button; invariably, when I'm wearing the producer/mixer hat, I
end up in a gentle but firm conversation with the artist where I show
them, using the mute button, just how much their favorite cool part
is cluttering or interfering with the song as a whole.  Generally, a
rythmic massage of the part is all that's needed, but just as often
the song is doing fine without yet another element being piled on.

Restraint is an art unto itself!


> One thing I have noticed is that leaving some sounds in, even if
very quiet
> still add to the feel.

This is the essence of why effects can be more magical when they're
less obvious.

Nice thread : )


u b i k

So, after a 3 week wait for my copy of logic (is
apple's sales/shipping team incompetent, or what?!!!),
it finally arrived today.  I'm reading the getting
started guide, and it keeps referencing a 'tutorial
project' which I was supposed to drag from the install
dvd.  Neither of the included dvd's has any such
project.  It's hardly crucial, but I fear that the
omission is a harbinger of things to come.  Perhaps I
am just overlooking something?

--sam


		
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Nope.  They shipped it to the incorrect address.  I
notified them of their mistake within 30 minutes of
getting the email confirmation of the order, but 24
hours later, the box shipped anyway.  When I called
again to let them know, they told me that they
couldn't cancel it because it had already shipped. 
Meanwhile, Fedex were telling me they had yet to pick
it up, so they couldn't 'send it back' either.  The
next day, I called again, and the apple rep told me he
would cancel the order with Fedex and have it shipped
back.  3 days later, I called again, and they were
still trying to deliver it to the wrong address.  This
time, I cancelled the thing myself.  A week later, I
called, and the box had only just entered the
warehouse, and I was told it would be several days
before it could be re-shipped.  This was last
wednesday, and since the thing was ostensibly an xmas
present (as they were well aware), I ordered another
copy, to be shipped express, and told them I'd deal
with a refund on the other order later.  I was assured
it would be shipped express and would arrive on
Friday, Dec 24.  ON the 23rd, I called to confirm that
it had shipped, and was told that it had indeed
shipped. I finally got a tracking number on the 24th,
and low and behold, it had been shipped fedex ground,
to be delivered today.  I called to complain, and they
told me that it was company policy to not ship
overnight to customers who live 'too close' to the
shipment origin, and since I live a mere 400 miles (!)
from the Sacramento shipping location, the express
order was downgraded to ground.  Personally, I think
that is making excuses, because I can't imagine that
no one in California can order apple products with
overnight shipping.  Regardless, I was told that was
company policy, so why my sales rep didn't point it
out to me, I have no idea.

In short, it was incompetence from start to finish,
and had me seriously reconsidering my commitment to
both apple hardware and software.

--sam

--- GAmoore@... wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 12/27/04 10:38:47 PM,
> logicusers@... writes:
> > is apple's sales/shipping team incompetent, or
> what?
> > 
> 
> I have bought several things from Apple and always
> had good experiences with 
> fast delivery - sometimes the next day even when
> paying just for standard 
> shipping. I imagine that Xmas had something to do
> with it, and perhaps a back 
> order situation.
> 


		
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Sam,

You didn't get the tutorial but it's available here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300095

Charlie

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Gendler <logicusers@i...> wrote:
 I'm reading the getting

> started guide, and it keeps referencing a 'tutorial
> project' which I was supposed to drag from the install
> dvd.  Neither of the included dvd's has any such
> project.  I>

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, GAmoore@a... wrote:
> Actually my uncle told me a person can only hear 4 melodies at once in the 
> sense of four lines of melody, but you guys bring up some good points. I think 
> there is another thing too - which is getting used to things. You can hear a 
> pretty complicated loop with drums and synths, but then your ear becomes 
> accustomed to it, so you need to make changes in rhythm or add a new element or 
> something. Thats the bit where I am thinking about Jack's mixer's comment but 
> carrying it a step further - to manage the listener's attention.
=======
Hi GA,
I really think that listeners listen to what they have listened to for years and there is not a 
whole lot you can do about it.  Some people listen to the words, some just the rhythm.  I 
tend to listen to bass parts and am completely oblivious of the words.

I have conducted large ensembles and you train yourself to listen to different parts and the 
ear will do it.  If you want to hear the third trombone part, you can focus in on it and hear 
it as if it was a solo.  It is very difficult to hear the entire ensemble.

Try asking people to sing you the bass line or some of the lyric or dance to what they 
remember of the tune when it is not playing.  You will get a lot of different answers. <g>

Charlie

> In short, it was incompetence from start to finish, and had 
> me seriously reconsidering my commitment to both apple 
> hardware and software.

When I was first looking into Logic, I had some questions that I wanted to
ask. I called the phone number listed on the Apple website and was put
through so many flipping "press ? if you want..." that I was so angry by the
time a human got on the phone that I told the poor sales lady that what I
had experienced was intolerable and I hung up. I won't buy anything direct
from Apple anymore unless I have no choice.

I bought Logic Express from The Guitar Center and Logic Pro upgrade from 8th
Street Music.

Kamm

> Did it ever cross your mind that "sound better" has as many 
> different meanings as there are different people?

I guess that *is* pretty vague. <grin> It is just that the intro to the song
sounds so uninteresting compared to the rest of the song. It doesn't make me
want to keep listening past the intro. I just haven't been able to think of
a way to make it better. Maybe I should reconsider having just a piano and
vocal and add another instrument. Maybe I should scrap the whole thing and
come in with a strong intro instead of a reflective intro.

I guess I'm just looking for ideas on what others have done to make a solo
vocal sound special other than reverb and EQ.

> Btw, you'r saying most of your music is MIDI based. There is 
> no way to make a MIDI piano sound right, at lesast not to 
> people who actually know the sound of a real piano.

Well, very true in factuality, but modern synths can come mighty close. I
just don't think that is what is the limiting factor in this case. It may
simply be that I don't play well enough in which case I need to think of an
alternative intro. Currently I'm lacking lyrics for the middle of the song,
The beginning and ending of the song are basically done. (I'm extremely
happy with the ending of the song. I just don't think anyone will listen
long enough to hear it.) Once I get the lyrics written and recorded for the
middle of the song, maybe I'll post it for critique. It is probably much
easier to make suggestions when you've got something to actually listen to.

Kamm

In my experience, good composition will overcome a lot
of poor production.  I hate to suggest it, especially
without hearing it, but perhaps you should look at the
music in the intro and work on making it more
interesting.  I can think of many tracks that open
with nothing more than piano and vocal that no one
considers so boring as to not be worth listening to,
so it is unlikely to be your instrument choice that is
causing the problem.  Good production can certainly
increase the interest in a song, but I don't know that
I'd look to production tricks as the primary solution
to a boring section (well, at least with musical
music.  Electronica and rap and such are a different
story).  But then, I'm hardly an award winning
producer, so what do I know?

--sam

--- Kamm Schreiner <kamm@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
> Did it ever cross your mind that "sound better" has
as many 
> different meanings as there are different people?

I guess that *is* pretty vague. <grin> It is just that
the intro to the song
sounds so uninteresting compared to the rest of the
song. It doesn't make me
want to keep listening past the intro. I just haven't
been able to think of
a way to make it better. Maybe I should reconsider
having just a piano and
vocal and add another instrument. Maybe I should scrap
the whole thing and
come in with a strong intro instead of a reflective
intro.

I guess I'm just looking for ideas on what others have
done to make a solo
vocal sound special other than reverb and EQ.

> Btw, you'r saying most of your music is MIDI based.
There is 
> no way to make a MIDI piano sound right, at lesast
not to 
> people who actually know the sound of a real piano.

Well, very true in factuality, but modern synths can
come mighty close. I
just don't think that is what is the limiting factor
in this case. It may
simply be that I don't play well enough in which case
I need to think of an
alternative intro. Currently I'm lacking lyrics for
the middle of the song,
The beginning and ending of the song are basically
done. (I'm extremely
happy with the ending of the song. I just don't think
anyone will listen
long enough to hear it.) Once I get the lyrics written
and recorded for the
middle of the song, maybe I'll post it for critique.
It is probably much
easier to make suggestions when you've got something
to actually listen to.

Kamm


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> I just don't think anyone will listen long enough to hear it.)
> Once I get the lyrics written and recorded for the
> middle of the song, maybe I'll post it for critique. It is probably
> much easier to make suggestions when you've got something to
> actually listen to.


If you really desire useful help and feedback, you *have* to post
what you've got.  Your fear that nobody will listen thru to the end
is exactly why you're asking for help, so let us help you with that. 

Please hear me on this: every one of us has written stuff that's
amazing and stuff that's mediocre.  Most of the time it's somewhere
in between, and it *always* helps to get outside feedback.  You seem
to be doing what too many artists (myself included) do, which is
reach a creative limit, recognize the need for outside help, but then
hold back because of the fear that what you have isn't good enough to
share. 

But that's exactly the point of asking for help, and the only way to
really tap into your mastery is to push thru those fears and be
willing to make yourself vulnerable.  I can guarantee that virtually
NONE of the records you adore were made by someone sitting alone in a
bedroom .  Most are multi-artist collaborations that generally
involve producers and mixers as well.  Take a hint from those who
inspire you: there is little to be gained, and much to be lost, by
holding back.  The earlier in the process you open it up to other
ears, the greater the reward.

So c'mon, let's hear what you got so we can make it even better ; )

u b i k

so, Sam,

Did you find the tutorial????

Charlie

--- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie Massey" <tenorsax20@m...> wrote:

> 
> Sam,
> 
> You didn't get the tutorial but it's available here:
> 
> http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300095
> 
> Charlie
> 
> --- In Logic_Cafe@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Gendler <logicusers@i...> wrote:
>  I'm reading the getting
> > started guide, and it keeps referencing a 'tutorial
> > project' which I was supposed to drag from the install
> > dvd.  Neither of the included dvd's has any such
> > project.  I>

--- Charlie Massey <tenorsax20@...> wrote:
>
> so, Sam,
>
> Did you find the tutorial????

Yes.  One has to question what kind of QA process
would allow such a basic error to make it into a
production release. 

--sam





		
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Hi guys,

Just FYI, I have also uploaded it to the LUG's files section.

Best,

Andy

Charlie Massey wrote:

> Did you find the tutorial????

> So c'mon, let's hear what you got so we can make it even better ; )

I didn't want to re-post your entire email, but you are right on all counts.
It was me who asked for an upload place for newbies like me and I suppose I
aught to make use of it. :)

I will post something within a week or so. It is stressful for me just
because I suspect some of you on this list are true "Pros" that make their
living at this kind of thing. I'm just a hobbyist and I'm sure that even my
best effort could be torn apart very easily. But... I'll never learn
anything unless I take that step.

Kamm

On Dec 29, 2004, at 8:24 PM, Kamm Schreiner wrote:

> I didn't want to re-post your entire email, but you are right on all 
> counts.
> It was me who asked for an upload place for newbies like me and I 
> suppose I
> aught to make use of it. :)
>
> I will post something within a week or so. It is stressful for me just
> because I suspect some of you on this list are true "Pros" that make 
> their
> living at this kind of thing. I'm just a hobbyist and I'm sure that 
> even my
> best effort could be torn apart very easily. But... I'll never learn
> anything unless I take that step.
>
> Kamm
>

Kamm!

	What better way to learn than to get some opinions from some pros!
Do not be shy!

Dave Shirk
Pamlico Sounds
Oriental, NC

Kamm,
to be on the safe side, copyright, what you have
first, before uploading it.  You don't want someone to
be humming bars of your music & wake up one morning
thinking they came up with it.  Could happen.  You may
or may not need a lot of tweaking, but protect what
you have.
Mitchell
--- Kamm Schreiner <kamm@...> wrote:

> 
> > So c'mon, let's hear what you got so we can make
> it even better ; )
> 
> I didn't want to re-post your entire email, but you
> are right on all counts.
> It was me who asked for an upload place for newbies
> like me and I suppose I
> aught to make use of it. :)
> 
> I will post something within a week or so. It is
> stressful for me just
> because I suspect some of you on this list are true
> "Pros" that make their
> living at this kind of thing. I'm just a hobbyist
> and I'm sure that even my
> best effort could be torn apart very easily. But...
> I'll never learn
> anything unless I take that step.
> 
> Kamm
> 
> 
> 
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Hi Sam,

You wrote:

> In my experience, good composition will overcome a lot of 
> poor production.  I hate to suggest it, especially without 
> hearing it, but perhaps you should look at the music in the 
> intro and work on making it more interesting.

This is a bit belated, but I've started to do just that. Thanks for your
suggestion (and honesty). :)

Kamm