Homebrew_PCBs

Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need to
get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can you
suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark which
is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job or
something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:

>
> Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need to
> get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can you
> suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark which
> is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job or
> something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike

A Dremel press works, though you really need to make sure your rotary
tool has good bearings up front. Any wobbling or vibration will
eventually snap a drill. So, you're not going to want the rotary tool
from Harbor Freight. Of course you can be like me, and build a little
CNC drill, but after putting in the required materials, funds, and
time a $150 tool seems like a great deal.

In message <cngfrj+53tr@...>
"cybermace5" <cybermace5@...> wrote:

> A Dremel press works, though you really need to make sure your rotary
> tool has good bearings up front. Any wobbling or vibration will
> eventually snap a drill.

Don't I know it... I've got an Expo Reliant Minidrill. It's not too bad, but
the bearings are lousy. If you run it at any speed, you can see the
unevenness in its motion - the drill bit seems to "bob" from side to side.
This in turn causes the bit to vibrate, then the drill and stand, then you
get a horrible noise as the stand starts resonating, then finally.. boom.

I really need a new drill - anyone got any suggestions? I'm thinking about
getting an Expo Zircon primarily because I've already got a stand that fits
it. The specs are on <http://www.expotools.com/> (IIRC) if anyone's
interested.

> Of course you can be like me, and build a little
> CNC drill, but after putting in the required materials, funds, and
> time a $150 tool seems like a great deal.

I was going to build a CNC myself, but getting the parts seems to be the hard
bit.. that and actually designing the thing.

Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem@... | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... NetWare does not have bugs, it has "Undocumented enhancements"

On Wednesday 17 November 2004 04:29 pm, cybermace5 wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> > Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need to
> > get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can you
> > suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark which
> > is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job or
> > something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike
>
> A Dremel press works, though you really need to make sure your rotary
> tool has good bearings up front. Any wobbling or vibration will
> eventually snap a drill. So, you're not going to want the rotary tool
> from Harbor Freight. Of course you can be like me, and build a little
> CNC drill, but after putting in the required materials, funds, and
> time a $150 tool seems like a great deal.

You built one? Tell me more about it?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <philpem@d...>
wrote:

> In message <cngfrj+53tr@e...>
> "cybermace5" <cybermace5@y...> wrote:
>
> > A Dremel press works, though you really need to make sure your

rotary

> > tool has good bearings up front. Any wobbling or vibration will
> > eventually snap a drill.
>
> Don't I know it... I've got an Expo Reliant Minidrill. It's not too

bad, but

> the bearings are lousy. If you run it at any speed, you can see the
> unevenness in its motion - the drill bit seems to "bob" from side

to side.

> This in turn causes the bit to vibrate, then the drill and stand,

then you

> get a horrible noise as the stand starts resonating, then finally..

boom.

>
> I really need a new drill - anyone got any suggestions? I'm

thinking about

> getting an Expo Zircon primarily because I've already got a stand

that fits

> it.

I use a Minicraft MB1012 drill and MB540 stand:

http://www.minicrafttools.com/drills.html

The bearings aren't too bad and I very rarely break tungsten drill
bits in it. If I do, it's my own clumsiness, rather than the fault of
the drill.

Leon

I am in the process of designing/building my own CNC driller/milling
machine now. I have just completed the framework and now waiting on
steppers and lead screws for it. I use a Jameco drill press in the
mean time and it works pretty good except the drill press itself is
a pain in the butt to get accurate 100% of the time. I know that
this will end up costing me over $300 to build right but I think its
worth it for the experience, fun of building and knowledge I will
gain. Plus the bonus is the milling part, since I can etch boards
that way instead of the chemicals all the time. And for an added
benefit, my wife is into wooden crafts and things and this would
help her out with engraving...so I get no problems there.

Just my 2 cents..



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton
<philpem@d...> wrote:

> In message <cngfrj+53tr@e...>
> "cybermace5" <cybermace5@y...> wrote:
>
> > A Dremel press works, though you really need to make sure your

rotary

> > tool has good bearings up front. Any wobbling or vibration will
> > eventually snap a drill.
>
> Don't I know it... I've got an Expo Reliant Minidrill. It's not

too bad, but

> the bearings are lousy. If you run it at any speed, you can see the
> unevenness in its motion - the drill bit seems to "bob" from side

to side.

> This in turn causes the bit to vibrate, then the drill and stand,

then you

> get a horrible noise as the stand starts resonating, then

finally.. boom.

>
> I really need a new drill - anyone got any suggestions? I'm

thinking about

> getting an Expo Zircon primarily because I've already got a stand

that fits

> it. The specs are on <http://www.expotools.com/> (IIRC) if anyone's
> interested.
>
> > Of course you can be like me, and build a little
> > CNC drill, but after putting in the required materials, funds,

and

> > time a $150 tool seems like a great deal.
>
> I was going to build a CNC myself, but getting the parts seems to

be the hard

> bit.. that and actually designing the thing.
>
> Later.
> --
> Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202,

64MB, 6GB,

> philpem@p... | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
> ... NetWare does not have bugs, it has "Undocumented enhancements"

http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis

Gets you a pc driven cnc pcb driller for 189 GBP in DIY kit form.
You don't need to know cnc as the software comes.

Kev/.

----- Original Message -----
From: mikezcnc
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:14 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB Driller



Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need to
get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can you
suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark which
is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job or
something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I recently bought a new Dremel press and the picture on the box shows the usual hole in the centre of the base where the drill bit goes through the base when drilling, only when I opened it, it didn't have the hole!
I'm not really sure why...

Kev/.

----- Original Message -----
From: cybermace5
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:29 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: PCB Driller



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need to
> get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can you
> suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark which
> is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job or
> something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike

A Dremel press works, though you really need to make sure your rotary
tool has good bearings up front. Any wobbling or vibration will
eventually snap a drill. So, you're not going to want the rotary tool
from Harbor Freight. Of course you can be like me, and build a little
CNC drill, but after putting in the required materials, funds, and
time a $150 tool seems like a great deal.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Drilling PCBs is a problem. Right now I'm tending toward using my Foredom handpiece in a drill press attachment with an XY table. The boards I'm building are no more than 3" x 5" so a big XY table isn't required. Foredom tools are very high quality. They use collets rather than a Jacobs chuck. Runout is minimal and they are designed for side as well as in line loads. The motor I have has a max speed of 15,000 rpm. That's a bit slow for PCB drilling, but it is primarily a wood carver. Foredom has pneumatic quills that will run at 300,000 rpm. That's a pretty good clip and should work well in PCB material. 20 years ago the PCB industry was running quills at 120,000 rpm and looking for more speed. Well, here it is at a price you can afford.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Earl,
I own several Dremel MultiPros. I bought a Foredom Number 30
handpiece thinking it was better. If you don't overtighten the collet
of the Dremel it has less runout than the Foredom Number 30. The
Dremel is under .003 and the Foredom is around .006 I suspect the
Jacobs chuck is not as well built as it looks. I bought a sound meter
also. The foredom is only a little quieter than the Dremel. The
Foredom makes low pitch noise and the Dremel is a high pitch. I ran
lots of test during my quest for a quiet spindle. I attached a pulley
to the back of a Foredom handpiece and drove it with a pancake motor.
Almost no noise at 18,000 RPMs but too much runout!

http://crankorgan.com/pancakespindle3.JPG



John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Earl T. Hackett, Jr."
<hacketet@c...> wrote:

> Drilling PCBs is a problem. Right now I'm tending toward using my

Foredom handpiece in a drill press attachment with an XY table. The
boards I'm building are no more than 3" x 5" so a big XY table isn't
required. Foredom tools are very high quality. They use collets
rather than a Jacobs chuck. Runout is minimal and they are designed
for side as well as in line loads. The motor I have has a max speed of
15,000 rpm. That's a bit slow for PCB drilling, but it is primarily a
wood carver. Foredom has pneumatic quills that will run at 300,000
rpm. That's a pretty good clip and should work well in PCB material.
20 years ago the PCB industry was running quills at 120,000 rpm and
looking for more speed. Well, here it is at a price you can afford.

>
> [Non-text porti

ons of this message have been removed]

How do you get the holes in the right place?
I tried using a manual dremel press.
For something like a 40-pin dip header...the pads are tiny
so you have to be right in the center. Also the header won't
fit if any of the tiny holes are the slightest bit off.

I stuck a dremel on a 3-axis stepper assembly. Drills holes
in accurate relative position, but never got around to writing
the code to correct for board rotation in the fixture.

Thank goodness surface mound don't need no stinkin' holes ;-)
mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
>
> Earl,
> I own several Dremel MultiPros. I bought a Foredom Number 30
> handpiece thinking it was better. If you don't overtighten the collet
> of the Dremel it has less runout than the Foredom Number 30. The
> Dremel is under .003 and the Foredom is around .006 I suspect the
> Jacobs chuck is not as well built as it looks. I bought a sound meter
> also. The foredom is only a little quieter than the Dremel. The
> Foredom makes low pitch noise and the Dremel is a high pitch. I ran
> lots of test during my quest for a quiet spindle. I attached a pulley
> to the back of a Foredom handpiece and drove it with a pancake motor.
> Almost no noise at 18,000 RPMs but too much runout!
>
> http://crankorgan.com/pancakespindle3.JPG
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Earl T. Hackett, Jr."
> <hacketet@c...> wrote:
> > Drilling PCBs is a problem. Right now I'm tending toward using my
> Foredom handpiece in a drill press attachment with an XY table. The
> boards I'm building are no more than 3" x 5" so a big XY table isn't
> required. Foredom tools are very high quality. They use collets
> rather than a Jacobs chuck. Runout is minimal and they are designed
> for side as well as in line loads. The motor I have has a max speed of
> 15,000 rpm. That's a bit slow for PCB drilling, but it is primarily a
> wood carver. Foredom has pneumatic quills that will run at 300,000
> rpm. That's a pretty good clip and should work well in PCB material.
> 20 years ago the PCB industry was running quills at 120,000 rpm and
> looking for more speed. Well, here it is at a price you can afford.
> >
> > [Non-text porti
> ons of this message have been removed]

One of the primary considerations of a tool is that it uses collets. Any chuck like a Jacobs introduces a few thou of runout. I'd like to find a set of collets for my old Unimat, but they are hard to come by at anything resembling a reasonable price.

I have a relatively new Dremel in a drawer. I'll compare it's runout to my Foredom 40 hand piece. It just may be better for PCB drilling.

As for positioning the holes, an XY table with 50 TPI lead screws makes things go quickly.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I mill my circuit boards. After making my outline artwork I go back
and put a dot in the center of each pad. During milling the dot
becomes a starter hole. I use the 60 degree milling bit from Think &
Tinker. It looks like a tiny drill bit mounted on a shaft. After
milling, it is on to my Dremel drillpress. I own one of those old ones
where the bed comes up instead of the Dremel moving.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:

>
> How do you get the holes in the right place?
> I tried using a manual dremel press.
> For something like a 40-pin dip header...the pads are tiny
> so you have to be right in the center. Also the header won't
> fit if any of the tiny holes are the slightest bit off.
>
> I stuck a dremel on a 3-axis stepper assembly. Drills holes
> in accurate relative position, but never got around to writing
> the code to correct for board rotation in the fixture.
>
> Thank goodness surface mound don't need no stinkin' holes ;-)
> mike
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> >
> > Earl,
> > I own several Dremel MultiPros. I bought a Foredom Number 30
> > handpiece thinking it was better. If you don't overtighten the collet
> > of the Dremel it has less runout than the Foredom Number 30. The
> > Dremel is under .003 and the Foredom is around .006 I suspect the
> > Jacobs chuck is not as well built as it looks. I bought a sound meter
> > also. The foredom is only a little quieter than the Dremel. The
> > Foredom makes low pitch noise and the Dremel is a high pitch. I ran
> > lots of test during my quest for a quiet spindle. I attached a pulley
> > to the back of a Foredom handpiece and drove it with a pancake motor.
> > Almost no noise at 18,000 RPMs but too much runout!
> >
> > http://crankorgan.com/pancakespindle3.JPG
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Earl T. Hackett, Jr."
> > <hacketet@c...> wrote:
> > > Drilling PCBs is a problem. Right now I'm tending toward using my
> > Foredom handpiece in a drill press attachment with an XY table. The
> > boards I'm building are no more than 3" x 5" so a big XY table isn't
> > required. Foredom tools are very high quality. They use collets
> > rather than a Jacobs chuck. Runout is minimal and they are designed
> > for side as well as in line loads. The motor I have has a max speed of
> > 15,000 rpm. That's a bit slow for PCB drilling, but it is primarily a
> > wood carver. Foredom has pneumatic quills that will run at 300,000
> > rpm. That's a pretty good clip and should work well in PCB material.
> > 20 years ago the PCB industry was running quills at 120,000 rpm and
> > looking for more speed. Well, here it is at a price you can afford.
> > >
> > > [Non-text porti
> > ons of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:

>

...

>
> Thank goodness surface mound don't need no stinkin' holes ;-)
> mike
>

I wish it were totally true! Using SMDs, I can significantly reduce
my hole count but headers/power connections/vias all conspire against
me. Vias really start to add up on complex SMD boards. I did do a
board that had 2 soics, lots of Rs and Cs but only 9 holes. Gettin
close.

Think "3-phase 400 Hz. quill-motor" (this one is a tiny 95 W. 400 Hz. 115
VAC "aircraft instrument motor" powered by a home-brew lashup (I do my own
transformers). The blue motor on top is the "Z-drive" (1/4" vertical movement)
and is a SS-25 Synchronous motor by Superior Electric.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 09:16 PM 11/17/2004, crankorgan wrote:

> I mill my circuit boards. After making my outline artwork I go back
>and put a dot in the center of each pad. During milling the dot
>becomes a starter hole.

What size hole do you use for this?

I had some prototyping boards once, that did this. 100 mil grid of pads,
each pad had a tiny hole in the center for drilling, IF you wanted to. The
source is long gone, and I'd like to make some new ones.

With the snap grid on I click twice in the center of the pad. It is
recorded as a location. During milling you get a starting diviot. The
diviot is tiny. Smaller than your drill bits.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@d...> wrote:
>
> At 09:16 PM 11/17/2004, crankorgan wrote:
>
>
>
> > I mill my circuit boards. After making my outline artwork I go back
> >and put a dot in the center of each pad. During milling the dot
> >becomes a starter hole.
>
> What size hole do you use for this?
>
> I had some prototyping boards once, that did this. 100 mil grid of
pads,
> each pad had a tiny hole in the center for drilling, IF you wanted
to. The
> source is long gone, and I'd like to make some new ones.

At 12:27 PM 11/18/2004, crankorgan wrote:

>With the snap grid on I click twice in the center of the pad. It is
>recorded as a location. During milling you get a starting diviot. The
>diviot is tiny. Smaller than your drill bits.

Ok, I was going to define this as a pad, with a small center hole, but I
don't know what size to use, so that it dosen't dissapear.

Then I would just not have the board drilled at all.

I am milling boards. My artwork is in DXF format. It sounds like you
are doing something else. The Think & Tinker 60 degree can mill and
produce starter divots.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave VanHorn <dvanhorn@d...> wrote:
> At 12:27 PM 11/18/2004, crankorgan wrote:
>
>
>
> >With the snap grid on I click twice in the center of the pad. It is
> >recorded as a location. During milling you get a starting diviot. The
> >diviot is tiny. Smaller than your drill bits.
>
> Ok, I was going to define this as a pad, with a small center hole,
but I
> don't know what size to use, so that it dosen't dissapear.
>
> Then I would just not have the board drilled at all.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:

>
> Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need

to

> get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can

you

> suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark

which

> is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job

or

> something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike

Depends on what you want to do.

CNC ? check out crankorgan.com

manual ? considder a table with a dremel and a pair of posts. The
dremel would be mounted on a sled that is mounted on the posts. your
foot would push on a lever that would pull a spring and move the
dremel.

two hands free, vision system capable, you'll be done this after noon.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:

>
> Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need

to

> get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can

you

> suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark

which

> is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job

or

> something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike

Just remembered, that John K. (crankorgan.com) has a couple kits
that he put together as tests and his use (not exactly sure) but they
are for sale and have the motors.

I think he will offer a driver card with the units like he does with
his kits.

But they may be for pick up only in North Jersey. Check is website
to see if he posted any comments.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:

>
> How do you get the holes in the right place?
> I tried using a manual dremel press.
> For something like a 40-pin dip header...the pads are tiny
> so you have to be right in the center. Also the header won't
> fit if any of the tiny holes are the slightest bit off.
>
> I stuck a dremel on a 3-axis stepper assembly. Drills holes
> in accurate relative position, but never got around to writing
> the code to correct for board rotation in the fixture.
>

Two ways.

#1, drill one hole and then put a piece of perf board over it and use
that as a guide.

#2, but a machined pin DIP socket and drill out the holes with your
drill bit.

Then drill one hole in the PCB and then place the drilled socket over
it and put in a pin or wire or drill and then use that as a way to
align the rest of the holes.

Dave

Or>GN

>
> #2, but a machined pin DIP socket and drill out the holes with your
> drill bit.
> Then drill one hole in the PCB and then place the drilled socket over
> it and put in a pin or wire or drill and then use that as a way to
> align the rest of the holes.
> Dave

Maybe if you wouldn't drill out two corner pins of the socket you could
use them
instead of wire or a drill to align... probably too thin.

Drilling with HSS drills freehand is MUCH, MUCH easier and faster, and
gets good alignment all
the time. The drill stand makes that so much harder, but carbide won't
work without.
I really must build some viewing mechanism or something.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>
> Or>GN
>
> >
> > #2, but a machined pin DIP socket and drill out the holes with your
> > drill bit.
> > Then drill one hole in the PCB and then place the drilled socket over
> > it and put in a pin or wire or drill and then use that as a way to
> > align the rest of the holes.
> > Dave
>

Sounds good on the surface...but to get enough alignment, you'd have
to have holes about the size of the drill bit. Then you'd have to
align it as well as without the template. If not, the drill would
break anyway.

With a dremel drill press, it runs out of throat on pretty small boards.

I like the manual x-y table on the drill press.

>
> Maybe if you wouldn't drill out two corner pins of the socket you could
> use them
> instead of wire or a drill to align... probably too thin.
>
> Drilling with HSS drills freehand is MUCH, MUCH easier and faster, and
> gets good alignment all
> the time. The drill stand makes that so much harder, but carbide won't
> work without.
> I really must build some viewing mechanism or something.

I don't have nearly the manual dexterity and vision that I had
before I got old.
Not any chance of drilling freehand ;-) and I use carbide that
breaks if you're not careful.

For the CNC drill, I built a gizmo to project crosshairs offset from
the drill. A little math and I could use the crosshairs on known
positions to align the board. But it was tedious going back and forth.
It should be a simple matter to do the rotation math to just calibrate
the drill to any board rotation. Started down that path, but lost
interest before it worked. I'm getting to where I forget the
name of the subroutine before I have a chance to call it ;-(

Note to self, don't get old...
mike

>
> ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
...

> I like the manual x-y table on the drill press.
>

This is what I use. With the right lighting, you can do some pretty
accurate manual drilling, even with crappy, aging eyes like mine. For
a row of holes (header, dip, sip, ...), align one end in x and y, lock
one of the axes and then step down the row, drilling. Works pretty
good and fast. I get good enough alignment to smoothly slip the part
in, even a dip or multi-row header.

I've given thought to CNCing my cross sliding vice ($45, from
grizzley) but it has a lot of backlash and 4 TPI leads so the accuracy
wont be too high. Worth looking into antibacklash mods. Still, it
would be a bit of a franken-tool.

The best solution is to SMD as much as you can. Anyone seen decent
SMD headers?

Phil

> The best solution is to SMD as much as you can. Anyone seen decent
> SMD headers?
>
> Phil

Most of them are pretty small, for mylar cable etc. But with .06" PCB
it's easy to put SMD pads on the edge of the board and solder 0.1"
single or double row headers pointing out from the edge. Also works
for solder-cup DB connectors.

Hmmm. Good idea! though probably not manufacturable. I get how
single row would work. It looks like the dual row stuff is close
though there is some slop with the 62 mil boards I'm using. Do you
bend the pins for a tighter fit? Still it does increase the
"footprint" of the board for mounting - i.e. you need a larger case to
mount it in.

Using a right angle header gives a vertical orientation and it
wouldn't have to be at the edge for single row stuff (thus not
increasing the size of the PCB footprint). I gave it a try using a
single row right angle header. Not bad at all. It seems pretty
strong though repeated (ab)use might tell a different story. Pads
would need to be in the range of 300 x 70 mils - at least that's the
size of the pads on the board I tested and it looks about right. I'll
post a picture if anyone wants. It would be cool to take the pad
width down to 40-50 mil to allow more generous space for a trace in
between. I'll have to make a test board for that. A quick look
through the mouser catalog didn't reveal any shorter RA headers but
that would allow reducing the length of the pads (150 mil would be
nice...) as the overall footprint is a bit large.

I don't have any right angle dual headers to try but that might work
well at the edge since one could push the pins a little closer to get
a tighter fit. Guess I could use 2 right angle rows back to back
though alignment would be a bit tricky but no vias to drill if well
laid out.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cybermace5" <cybermace5@y...>
wrote:

>
> > The best solution is to SMD as much as you can. Anyone seen decent
> > SMD headers?
> >
> > Phil
>
>
> Most of them are pretty small, for mylar cable etc. But with .06" PCB
> it's easy to put SMD pads on the edge of the board and solder 0.1"
> single or double row headers pointing out from the edge. Also works
> for solder-cup DB connectors.

>
> Using a right angle header gives a vertical orientation and it
> wouldn't have to be at the edge for single row stuff (thus not
> increasing the size of the PCB footprint). I gave it a try using a
> single row right angle header. Not bad at all. It seems pretty
> strong though repeated (ab)use might tell a different story. Pads
> would need to be in the range of 300 x 70 mils - at least that's the
> size of the pads on the board I tested and it looks about right. I'll
> post a picture if anyone wants. It would be cool to take the pad
> width down to 40-50 mil to allow more generous space for a trace in
> between. I'll have to make a test board for that. A quick look
> through the mouser catalog didn't reveal any shorter RA headers but
> that would allow reducing the length of the pads (150 mil would be
> nice...) as the overall footprint is a bit large.

You want enough size not to pull the pads off anyway. sounds like a good
idea.

>
> I don't have any right angle dual headers to try but that might work
> well at the edge since one could push the pins a little closer to get
> a tighter fit. Guess I could use 2 right angle rows back to back
> though alignment would be a bit tricky but no vias to drill if well
> laid out.

Interesting too. But if you need interection between top/bottom i prefer
using components over
making separate vias - kind of defeats the purpose.
You can simply rotate the second row around (and slide, clip) to solder it
flat on the top layer, or
use two single row butt-to-butt.

ST

gettingalongwouldbenice wrote:

> positions to align the board. But it was tedious going back and forth.
> It should be a simple matter to do the rotation math to just calibrate
> the drill to any board rotation. Started down that path, but lost

The rotation math really isn't that bad, after aligning manually to two holes
in opposite corners, but there are many ways to skin the cat.

Reference line marked or scored with a tool on the backing. Drill two holes
on a line and sight the reference. Once you're rectilinear offsets are easy.
And skip those first two holes, just put a ruler across the holes and mark at
the edges of the board, align to the reference line and it's square to the grid.
Bring a bit near the board, get it over a known hole, do the 90 degree cross
check and set the coordinates for that hole. Then go. Really best to have 2
lines at 90 degrees, use a corner hole and two out at the other corners. That
way you know you're fully aligned all the way across the board.

So the math's easy enough, but very little reason to do it when mechanical
alignment is easy too. I've never bothered to put it in my driller for that
reason..

Alan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
...

> Interesting too. But if you need interection between top/bottom i

prefer

> using components over
> making separate vias - kind of defeats the purpose.
> You can simply rotate the second row around (and slide, clip) to

solder it

> flat on the top layer, or
> use two single row butt-to-butt.

The problem with dual row right angle is one row is shorter than the
other so cliping is needed (as you say). Others may have better
skills than I...

I agree that if I have to make a lot of vias, might as well do TH.
However, if its only a couple, vias are preferable.

By the way, I did a destructive test on the header I tried out. Its
a stronger connection than TH. I broke it off but pieces of FR4 came
with it! Its all about surface area.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> ...
> > Interesting too. But if you need interection between top/bottom i
> prefer
> > using components over
> > making separate vias - kind of defeats the purpose.
> > You can simply rotate the second row around (and slide, clip) to
> solder it
> > flat on the top layer, or
> > use two single row butt-to-butt.
>
> The problem with dual row right angle is one row is shorter than the
> other so cliping is needed (as you say). Others may have better
> skills than I...
>
> I agree that if I have to make a lot of vias, might as well do TH.
> However, if its only a couple, vias are preferable.
>
> By the way, I did a destructive test on the header I tried out.

Its

> a stronger connection than TH. I broke it off but pieces of FR4

came

> with it! Its all about surface area.

Surface area and board material !

When I got my T-TEch machine, it came with a couple sheets of 1oz dbl
sided with a very white substrate. the copper pealed off very
easily. So easy that it was easier to peal than to use the cutter
to clear large sections of unused area.

The FR-4 I used next was next to impossible to peal and the CM-1 I
now use is very easy compared to FR4 but not quite as easy as the
other stuff.

Dave

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:13:34 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:

>
> Surface area and board material !
> When I got my T-TEch machine, it came with a couple sheets of 1oz dbl
> sided with a very white substrate. the copper pealed off very
> easily. So easy that it was easier to peal than to use the cutter
> to clear large sections of unused area.
> The FR-4 I used next was next to impossible to peal and the CM-1 I
> now use is very easy compared to FR4 but not quite as easy as the
> other stuff.
> Dave

Too right there!
FR4 seems to hold much better.
Maybe it depends on brand too, how the copper bottom side is prepared.
I had heard numbers at some point, quite impressive i remember, of force
per area .. maybe
one can find them somewhere.

With connectors also consider the degrees of freedom. A single row 90°
header might be pulled straight,
or levered to the side. using a 2-row makes it more stable.
Worst must be the idea with the screw terminals soldered to the edge. i
can see myself breaking the pad
off with that. perfect lever angle, solid connection to wire, torque whith
screwdriver, perfect edge to
start.... A two-row or d-sub on the edge seems solid compared to the screw
terminal.


ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
wrote:
....

> When I got my T-TEch machine, it came with a couple sheets of 1oz dbl
> sided with a very white substrate. the copper pealed off very
> easily. So easy that it was easier to peal than to use the cutter
> to clear large sections of unused area.
>
> The FR-4 I used next was next to impossible to peal and the CM-1 I
> now use is very easy compared to FR4 but not quite as easy as the
> other stuff.

Maybe this is a stupid question but why whould you want copper that
peels off that easily? I have enough trouble trying to AVOID lifting
pads and traces that any gain from clearing large areas would be lost
to damaged boards. I want my copper to adhere very tightly. (there's
a bad joke in there but I shall desist). Wouldn't the large areas be
better left as ground planes?

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> wrote:
> ....
> > When I got my T-TEch machine, it came with a couple sheets of 1oz

dbl

> > sided with a very white substrate. the copper pealed off very
> > easily. So easy that it was easier to peal than to use the

cutter

> > to clear large sections of unused area.
> >
> > The FR-4 I used next was next to impossible to peal and the CM-1

I

> > now use is very easy compared to FR4 but not quite as easy as the
> > other stuff.
>
>
> Maybe this is a stupid question but why whould you want copper that
> peels off that easily? I have enough trouble trying to AVOID

lifting

> pads and traces that any gain from clearing large areas would be

lost

> to damaged boards. I want my copper to adhere very tightly.

(there's

> a bad joke in there but I shall desist). Wouldn't the large areas

be

> better left as ground planes?
>
> Phil

Check out the photos section, Daves Drill. the third picture.

Imagine if you wanted to remove all the copper with a mechanical
etcher. It would take hours and probably destroy the cutter in short
order.

I get boards by mechanically etching the outlines and then pealing
the excess copper.

The board in the foreground is partially pealed.

Imagine trying to only solder the pads around the excess copper.

This is the largest drawback with using mechanical etchers.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
wrote:
...

>
> Check out the photos section, Daves Drill. the third picture.
>
> Imagine if you wanted to remove all the copper with a mechanical
> etcher. It would take hours and probably destroy the cutter in short
> order.
>
> I get boards by mechanically etching the outlines and then pealing
> the excess copper.
>
> The board in the foreground is partially pealed.
>
> Imagine trying to only solder the pads around the excess copper.
>
> This is the largest drawback with using mechanical etchers.
>
> Dave

I understand that. If it were me, I'd look to make the excess copper
a ground plane. You should be able to make thermals around pads and
vias in the "excess" areas so soldering isn't hard. Eagle does this
pretty well but i don't know your layout sw.

With chemical etching, I try to minimize the amount of copper removal
so I use a similar process. Start with the entire board as a ground
plane. Route and set isolation to 24 mils. That leaves a lot of
copper ground plane and extends my etchant by minimizing copper
removed. I will sometimes drop a via to the ground plane on the other
side to preserve an otherwise unconnected area (which eagle would remove).

I guess my high order bit here is having copper that wont peel off
when soldering but followed very closely by having lots of ground
plane to keep the board quiet.

In a message dated 11/18/2004 12:42:46 AM Central Standard Time,
JanRwl@... writes:

Think "3-phase 400 Hz. quill-motor . . . "<<
I guess my LINK got removed? By NAME, then: Look in PHOTOS for
"JanRowland". ONE photo.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In article <005a01c4ccf9$bfcca780$0ab1a8c0@thelpearcek>,
Kev Pearce (kevp.com) <email.me@...> wrote:

> http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis

> Gets you a pc driven cnc pcb driller for 189 GBP in DIY kit form.
> You don't need to know cnc as the software comes.

Have you used one? Is it any good?

I was looking at this a while ago and I belive a lot of it is MDF board.

Stuart.

>From: lists <stuart.winsor.lists@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB Driller
>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:21:49 +0100
>
>
>In article <005a01c4ccf9$bfcca780$0ab1a8c0@thelpearcek>,
> Kev Pearce (kevp.com) <email.me@...> wrote:
>
> > http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis
>
> > Gets you a pc driven cnc pcb driller for 189 GBP in DIY kit form.
> > You don't need to know cnc as the software comes.
>
>Have you used one? Is it any good?
>
>I was looking at this a while ago and I belive a lot of it is MDF board.

It looks more like Fomecore to me. It can be quite rigid, though.

Leon

Two-three years ago I inquired about that machine and according to
the rep it was pretty much a demo unit to demo a concept of CNC. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller"
<leon_heller@h...> wrote:

>
> >From: lists <stuart.winsor.lists@d...>
> >Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB Driller
> >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:21:49 +0100
> >
> >
> >In article <005a01c4ccf9$bfcca780$0ab1a8c0@thelpearcek>,
> > Kev Pearce (kevp.com) <email.me@k...> wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis
> >
> > > Gets you a pc driven cnc pcb driller for 189 GBP in DIY kit

form.

> > > You don't need to know cnc as the software comes.
> >
> >Have you used one? Is it any good?
> >
> >I was looking at this a while ago and I belive a lot of it is MDF

board.

>
> It looks more like Fomecore to me. It can be quite rigid, though.
>
> Leon

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/18/2004 12:42:46 AM Central Standard Time,
> JanRwl@A... writes:
>
> Think "3-phase 400 Hz. quill-motor . . . "<<
> I guess my LINK got removed? By NAME, then: Look in PHOTOS for
> "JanRowland". ONE photo.

No, it is in FILES where it's been for quite a while. Look in Homemade
PCB Equipment.

Photos shrinks your schematic down to 300x400 max, at which point it
is unreadable. Only the uploader and the moderator can see the full
size image in Photos.

Steve Greenfield

Here's someone's experience with this device:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gloomy-place/cncold.htm

To summarize: it's slow and needed an upgrade to a Basic Stamp II,
inaccurate, and uses HPGL, not the more common G-code.

So, for that kind of money I'd consider scratch-building one of John
Kleinbauer's machines. I built his Brute, which works very well.
John's designs are thoroughly tested and debugged before he publishes
them, and he keeps his designs elegantly simple, and easy for a
hobbyist to build. See:

http://www.crankorgan.com/index.html

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Kev Pearce \(kevp.com\)"
<email.me@k...> wrote:

> http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis
>
> Gets you a pc driven cnc pcb driller for 189 GBP in DIY kit form.
> You don't need to know cnc as the software comes.
>
> Kev/.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mikezcnc
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:14 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] PCB Driller
>
>
>
> Earl mentioned www.drillcity.com and that reminded me that I need to
> get a driller capable of drilling PCBs. What kind of machine can you
> suggest for manual drilling? www.pulsa.gs suggested Micro-mark which
> is about $150. Is there something less exensive that does the job or
> something that expensive that would do a better job? Mike
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]