Homebrew PCBs

Electrostatic toner transfer.

I'm disturbed by the lack of specificity on the web, so pardon
me if I go overboard trying to communicate what I did.

I wasn't getting anywhere with the problem of clay adhesion
from Staples Picture Paper, so I decided to try another.

I cut a page from Electronic Engineering Times Magazine.
I stuffed it into an HP Laserjet 4L with HP92274A standard
toner.  I used the default printer settings.

The paper was too thin, so It got stuck in the printer prior to
fusing.  I pulled it out and decided that this was a "sign" from
wherever signs come from.

Here's the stack for electrostatic transfer.
Insulation layer on the table.
Piece of aluminum foil for the negative electrode.
Paper with unfused toner image facing up.
Layer of copier paper .004" thick around the perimeter of the image.
Strip of aluminum foil for positive electrode.
Copper circuit board face down contacting the positive electrode.

The copier paper provides insulation and some spacing so the toner
doesn't get smeared.
I applied 1200VDC, the highest voltage I could generate on short notice,
to the electrodes.  DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.  DEATH IS POSSIBLE!!!!!!

Then I removed the circuit board and set it on a hot plate at 250F.
I only wanted to get it "stuck" well enough to put on the scanner to
show the results.  That's a TQFP64 chip.  Many of the traces have
.005" space between them.  This is my FIRST attempt.

I think there's some real promise here.  Need more volts.

I have pictures of the setup and a scan of the toner on copper.

Anyone interested in a collaboration can email me for a link to them.
My website has a low bandwidth limit.  What's the process to get
approval to post them to the yahoo group archive?  It's only 180KB
at this point, but could easily get a LOT bigger.
Then there's the obvious question, "Does anyone care?  Should I just
keep my ramblings to myself?  Anyone wanna help?"  Ok three questions.

I need to go buy a sheet of glass and build a higher voltage power supply.
I've had two portable photocopy machines sitting on the floor for almost a decade.
Perfect for high voltage parts, rollers etc.  I threw them both away
two weeks ago.  RATS!!!

Anybody ever tried to rectify the output of a stun gun?  AC just ain't
gonna do it.  Does make some impressive sizzling noises tho.

Suggestions appreciated.

mike

>From: "gettingalongwouldbenice" <gettingalongwouldbenice@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Electrostatic Toner Transfer
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:43:47 -0000
>
>
>
>Electrostatic toner transfer.
>
>I'm disturbed by the lack of specificity on the web, so pardon
>me if I go overboard trying to communicate what I did.
>
>I wasn't getting anywhere with the problem of clay adhesion
>from Staples Picture Paper, so I decided to try another.
>
>I cut a page from Electronic Engineering Times Magazine.
>I stuffed it into an HP Laserjet 4L with HP92274A standard
>toner.  I used the default printer settings.
>
>The paper was too thin, so It got stuck in the printer prior to
>fusing.  I pulled it out and decided that this was a "sign" from
>wherever signs come from.
>
>Here's the stack for electrostatic transfer.
>Insulation layer on the table.
>Piece of aluminum foil for the negative electrode.
>Paper with unfused toner image facing up.
>Layer of copier paper .004" thick around the perimeter of the image.
>Strip of aluminum foil for positive electrode.
>Copper circuit board face down contacting the positive electrode.

The original Xerox flat-bed copiers could be used for making PCBs in a 
similar manner, transferring the toner from the photoreceptor plate to the 
copper. When I worked for Rank-Xerox many years ago, I remember reading a 
document describing the technique. I saw some boards made using the process; 
it was OK for simple prototypes but nowhere near as good as the photographic 
techniques used at the time.

Leon

On 10 Nov 2004, at 11:43, gettingalongwouldbenice wrote:

> I think there's some real promise here.  Need more volts.

Probably the easiest way to go would be a cockroft-walton voltage 
multiplier, a handful of caps and diodes doubles the voltage at each 
stage.

-- 

Cheers

Derryck

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...> wrote:
> On 10 Nov 2004, at 11:43, gettingalongwouldbenice wrote:
> 
> > I think there's some real promise here.  Need more volts.
> 
> Probably the easiest way to go would be a cockroft-walton voltage 
> multiplier, a handful of caps and diodes 

> doubles the voltage at each stage.

You sure about that?
mike

> 
> -- 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Derryck

On 11 Nov 2004, at 13:56, gettingalongwouldbenice wrote:

>>> I think there's some real promise here.  Need more volts.
>>
>> Probably the easiest way to go would be a cockroft-walton voltage
>> multiplier, a handful of caps and diodes

> You sure about that?

Positive. Have you checked the web?

<http://www.web-ee.com/Schematics/Voltage%20Multiplier/Cockroft- 
Walton.htm>

for one, and there are 1,000's more references.

-- 

Cheers

Derryck

> Anyone interested in a collaboration can email me for a link to them.
> My website has a low bandwidth limit.  What's the process to get
> approval to post them to the yahoo group archive?  It's only 180KB
> at this point, but could easily get a LOT bigger.
> Then there's the obvious question, "Does anyone care?  Should I just
> keep my ramblings to myself?  Anyone wanna help?"  Ok three questions.

If you need a place to host images like these, let me know. As long as
it stays related to technology and doesn't turn into a family photo
album, I can provide you with a subdirectory of my site.
 
> I need to go buy a sheet of glass and build a higher voltage power
supply.
> I've had two portable photocopy machines sitting on the floor for
almost a decade.
> Perfect for high voltage parts, rollers etc.  I threw them both away
> two weeks ago.  RATS!!!
> 
> Anybody ever tried to rectify the output of a stun gun?  AC just ain't
> gonna do it.  Does make some impressive sizzling noises tho.
> 
> Suggestions appreciated.


Stun guns only put out a few hundred volts. The stun effect is linked
to the pulsed nature of the output. Essentially it overloads and
exhausts the muscular nervous system IIRC.

Is 7,500 volts enough? Here's a generator that runs off a wall socket
and costs $11:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G1783&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=2

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> 
> Electrostatic toner transfer.
...
> My website has a low bandwidth limit.  What's the process to get
> approval to post them to the yahoo group archive?  It's only 180KB
> at this point, but could easily get a LOT bigger.
> Then there's the obvious question, "Does anyone care?  Should I just
> keep my ramblings to myself?  Anyone wanna help?"  Ok three questions.

You are a member, you have approval. Anyone here can upload files,
photos, and links.

Try to save images as JPG, GIF, or PNG. See here for tips on which
image format to choose:
http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/webgraphicstut3/

Also keep in mind that the Photos section will only show 300x400 max
to everyone but the moderator and the uploader, so anything over that
is a waste of storage space.

Try to put things in appropriate folders, you can make new folders. I
prefer names like "Electrostatic Toner Transfer" instead of using your
name, unless you are just showing off things you've done.

Also keep in mind that you can only post text only HTML pages to the
Files section. Yahoogroups won't allow an HTML page to link to images
saved in Yahoogroups.

Steve Greenfield, listowner

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cybermace5" <cybermace5@y...>
wrote:
snip
> 
> Stun guns only put out a few hundred volts. The stun effect is linked
> to the pulsed nature of the output. Essentially it overloads and
> exhausts the muscular nervous system IIRC.

Come on down and I'll let you try out my stun gun.
The manual says 50,000 Volts.  It'll jump a 2" gap.
Do I get to pick the body part we try it on??? ;-)
mike

> 
> Is 7,500 volts enough? Here's a generator that runs off a wall socket
> and costs $11:

Turns out I saved the HV generator from the copier I scrapped...
and actually found it in the junkpile.
More volts isn't helping.
mike
>
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G1783&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=2

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...> wrote:
> On 11 Nov 2004, at 13:56, gettingalongwouldbenice wrote:
> 
> >>> I think there's some real promise here.  Need more volts.
> >>
> >> Probably the easiest way to go would be a cockroft-walton voltage
> >> multiplier, a handful of caps and diodes
> 
> > You sure about that?
> 
> Positive. Have you checked the web?

Yes, I have.  The link below shows up as a 404 error for me.
But there are indeed countless other sites.
> 
> <http://www.web-ee.com/Schematics/Voltage%20Multiplier/Cockroft- 
> Walton.htm>
> 
> for one, and there are 1,000's more references.

You conveniently snipped the problem area.

Quoting your earlier post:
> On 10 Nov 2004, at 11:43, gettingalongwouldbenice wrote:
>
> > I think there's some real promise here. Need more volts.
>
> Probably the easiest way to go would be a cockroft-walton voltage
> multiplier, a handful of caps and diodes

> doubles the voltage at each stage.

I'm often wrong, but I'd bet the farm that the voltage does
NOT "DOUBLE" at every stage.

mike

> 
> -- 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Derryck

On 12 Nov 2004, at 01:39, gettingalongwouldbenice wrote:

> You conveniently snipped the problem area.

I only ever quote the bits I'm responding to.

>> doubles the voltage at each stage.
>
> I'm often wrong, but I'd bet the farm that the voltage does
> NOT "DOUBLE" at every stage.

You're right, that was my mistake, but you could still use the idea.

-- 

Cheers

Derryck

I think you should read this page

http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/summer/scor/articles/scor54.htm

Once the toner is on the paper the charge of the paper and the toner
are the same. While some toner might stick to the board some will also
stay on the paper. The horse is out of the barn so to speak. The
transfer needed to make good circuit boards has to be near perfect.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> 
> Electrostatic toner transfer.
> 
> I'm disturbed by the lack of specificity on the web, so pardon
> me if I go overboard trying to communicate what I did.
> 
> I wasn't getting anywhere with the problem of clay adhesion
> from Staples Picture Paper, so I decided to try another.
> 
> I cut a page from Electronic Engineering Times Magazine.
> I stuffed it into an HP Laserjet 4L with HP92274A standard
> toner.  I used the default printer settings.
> 
> The paper was too thin, so It got stuck in the printer prior to
> fusing.  I pulled it out and decided that this was a "sign" from
> wherever signs come from.
> 
> Here's the stack for electrostatic transfer.
> Insulation layer on the table.
> Piece of aluminum foil for the negative electrode.
> Paper with unfused toner image facing up.
> Layer of copier paper .004" thick around the perimeter of the image.
> Strip of aluminum foil for positive electrode.
> Copper circuit board face down contacting the positive electrode.
> 
> The copier paper provides insulation and some spacing so the toner
> doesn't get smeared.
> I applied 1200VDC, the highest voltage I could generate on short notice,
> to the electrodes.  DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.  DEATH IS POSSIBLE!!!!!!
> 
> Then I removed the circuit board and set it on a hot plate at 250F.
> I only wanted to get it "stuck" well enough to put on the scanner to
> show the results.  That's a TQFP64 chip.  Many of the traces have
> .005" space between them.  This is my FIRST attempt.
> 
> I think there's some real promise here.  Need more volts.
> 
> I have pictures of the setup and a scan of the toner on copper.
> 
> Anyone interested in a collaboration can email me for a link to them.
> My website has a low bandwidth limit.  What's the process to get
> approval to post them to the yahoo group archive?  It's only 180KB
> at this point, but could easily get a LOT bigger.
> Then there's the obvious question, "Does anyone care?  Should I just
> keep my ramblings to myself?  Anyone wanna help?"  Ok three questions.
> 
> I need to go buy a sheet of glass and build a higher voltage power
supply.
> I've had two portable photocopy machines sitting on the floor for
almost a decade.

> Perfect for high voltage parts, rollers etc.  I threw them both away
> two weeks ago.  RATS!!!
> 
> Anybody ever tried to rectify the output of a stun gun?  AC just ain't
> gonna do it.  Does make some impressive sizzling noises tho.
> 
> Suggestions appreciated.
> 
> mike

I don't see how your comment has anything to do with Mikes idea.

Yes, the toner and the paper are charged the same. So what? They 
have been loosing their charge since they came out of the printer 
(static dissapates) and now have little or no charge relative to the 
environment around them as well as no charge relative to each other.

The point is that he has charged the blank PCB now. Some or most of 
the Toner will then jump up to the blank. As long as he flips the 
blank over before the charge dissapates, that toner is going to stay 
on the board.

Now, he takes the blank, with the un-fused toner on it, at sets it 
in a hotplate. At this point, the toner melts onto the blank. There 
is no paper to remove, the toner isn't going to come off and we are 
ready to etch.

I think its brilliant. Any other snide remarks you want to make? or 
are you just repeating what you learned from others as documented at:
http://www.crankorgan.com/whodabitchnow.htm

James.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> 
> I think you should read this page
> 
> http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/summer/scor/articles/scor54.htm
> 
> Once the toner is on the paper the charge of the paper and the 
toner
> are the same. While some toner might stick to the board some will 
also

> stay on the paper. The horse is out of the barn so to speak. The
> transfer needed to make good circuit boards has to be near perfect.
> 
> 
>

I made a Photo Album for Electrostatic Toner Transfer.
Ain't perfect, but was the best I could do in 15 minutes
of experimentation.  I'm dragging my feet on ripping the
fuser out of my laser printer.  I don't make enough boards to justify
a disembowled laser printer taking up space.

I'd much rather find something
that could dissolve the clay remnants from the Staples Picture
Paper.
mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
<jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:

> 
> I don't see how your comment has anything to do with Mikes idea.
> 
> Yes, the toner and the paper are charged the same. So what? They 
> have been loosing their charge since they came out of the printer 
> (static dissapates) and now have little or no charge relative to the 
> environment around them as well as no charge relative to each other.
> 
> The point is that he has charged the blank PCB now. Some or most of 
> the Toner will then jump up to the blank. As long as he flips the 
> blank over before the charge dissapates, that toner is going to stay 
> on the board.
> 
> Now, he takes the blank, with the un-fused toner on it, at sets it 
> in a hotplate. At this point, the toner melts onto the blank. There 
> is no paper to remove, the toner isn't going to come off and we are 
> ready to etch.
> 
> I think its brilliant. Any other snide remarks you want to make? or 
> are you just repeating what you learned from others as documented at:
> http://www.crankorgan.com/whodabitchnow.htm
> 
> James.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> > I think you should read this page
> > 
> > http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/summer/scor/articles/scor54.htm
> > 
> > Once the toner is on the paper the charge of the paper and the 
> toner
> > are the same. While some toner might stick to the board some will 
> also
> > stay on the paper. The horse is out of the barn so to speak. The
> > transfer needed to make good circuit boards has to be near perfect.
> > 
> > 
> >

James,
       Some of the toner will stick to the paper and he will get an
image that will have pinholes. Wishful thinking won't make it work. It
will all come down to science. You can insult me all you want. It
won't change the results. It will go the way of the inkjet filled with
floorwax.

                                         John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
<jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:

> 
> I don't see how your comment has anything to do with Mikes idea.
> 
> Yes, the toner and the paper are charged the same. So what? They 
> have been loosing their charge since they came out of the printer 
> (static dissapates) and now have little or no charge relative to the 
> environment around them as well as no charge relative to each other.
> 
> The point is that he has charged the blank PCB now. Some or most of 
> the Toner will then jump up to the blank. As long as he flips the 
> blank over before the charge dissapates, that toner is going to stay 
> on the board.
> 
> Now, he takes the blank, with the un-fused toner on it, at sets it 
> in a hotplate. At this point, the toner melts onto the blank. There 
> is no paper to remove, the toner isn't going to come off and we are 
> ready to etch.
> 
> I think its brilliant. Any other snide remarks you want to make? or 
> are you just repeating what you learned from others as documented at:
> http://www.crankorgan.com/whodabitchnow.htm
> 
> James.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> > I think you should read this page
> > 
> > http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/summer/scor/articles/scor54.htm
> > 
> > Once the toner is on the paper the charge of the paper and the 
> toner
> > are the same. While some toner might stick to the board some will 
> also
> > stay on the paper. The horse is out of the barn so to speak. The
> > transfer needed to make good circuit boards has to be near perfect.
> > 
> > 
> >

Look at the pictures he uploaded. It worked. No pinholes. My bet is 
that even if all the toner doesn't transfer to the PCB, the fact 
that it is being melted to the board without paper in contact with 
the toner means that the toner will "reflow" or fill in where it 
didn't transfer.

I didn't insult you. You insulted him by implying that he didn't 
understand how a copier works. Man that pisses me off. How many 
great ideas have we lost because some... person... spouted out a put 
down and killed it? I wanted to say a lot more, but all I did was 
call a snide remark a snide remark and pointed to your page where 
you railed against people saying the same things about your ideas.

The proof is, as you say, in the pudding. Look at the pictures. And 
before you go saying something won't work, why don't you TRY IT and 
put aside YOUR wishfull thinking? 

James.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> 
> James,
>        Some of the toner will stick to the paper and he will get an
> image that will have pinholes. Wishful thinking won't make it 
work. It
> will all come down to science. You can insult me all you want. It
> won't change the results. It will go the way of the inkjet filled 
with
> floorwax.
> 
>                                          John
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > I don't see how your comment has anything to do with Mikes idea.
> > 
> > Yes, the toner and the paper are charged the same. So what? They 
> > have been loosing their charge since they came out of the 
printer 
> > (static dissapates) and now have little or no charge relative to 
the 
> > environment around them as well as no charge relative to each 
other.
> > 
> > The point is that he has charged the blank PCB now. Some or most 
of 
> > the Toner will then jump up to the blank. As long as he flips 
the 
> > blank over before the charge dissapates, that toner is going to 
stay 
> > on the board.
> > 
> > Now, he takes the blank, with the un-fused toner on it, at sets 
it 
> > in a hotplate. At this point, the toner melts onto the blank. 
There 
> > is no paper to remove, the toner isn't going to come off and we 
are 
> > ready to etch.
> > 
> > I think its brilliant. Any other snide remarks you want to make? 
or 
> > are you just repeating what you learned from others as 
documented at:

> > http://www.crankorgan.com/whodabitchnow.htm
> > 
> > James.
> >

James,
      If the toner flows in order to fill voids than it will flow
where you don't want it. No matter what I say won't matter anyway if
he gets it to work right? I have proved dozens of people wrong. Maybe
I am wrong. Maybe he does not need the high voltage. From a practical
standpoint how many people are going to be able to use his method? It
is only my opinion. I can be wrong! I though I would make alot of
money selling plans. I only make enough money to pay my bills. So you
see I can be wrong. 

                                               John  


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
<jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:

> 
> Look at the pictures he uploaded. It worked. No pinholes. My bet is 
> that even if all the toner doesn't transfer to the PCB, the fact 
> that it is being melted to the board without paper in contact with 
> the toner means that the toner will "reflow" or fill in where it 
> didn't transfer.
> 
> I didn't insult you. You insulted him by implying that he didn't 
> understand how a copier works. Man that pisses me off. How many 
> great ideas have we lost because some... person... spouted out a put 
> down and killed it? I wanted to say a lot more, but all I did was 
> call a snide remark a snide remark and pointed to your page where 
> you railed against people saying the same things about your ideas.
> 
> The proof is, as you say, in the pudding. Look at the pictures. And 
> before you go saying something won't work, why don't you TRY IT and 
> put aside YOUR wishfull thinking? 
> 
> James.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> > James,
> >        Some of the toner will stick to the paper and he will get an
> > image that will have pinholes. Wishful thinking won't make it 
> work. It
> > will all come down to science. You can insult me all you want. It
> > won't change the results. It will go the way of the inkjet filled 
> with
> > floorwax.
> > 
> >                                          John
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> > <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I don't see how your comment has anything to do with Mikes idea.
> > > 
> > > Yes, the toner and the paper are charged the same. So what? They 
> > > have been loosing their charge since they came out of the 
> printer 
> > > (static dissapates) and now have little or no charge relative to 
> the 
> > > environment around them as well as no charge relative to each 
> other.
> > > 
> > > The point is that he has charged the blank PCB now. Some or most 
> of 
> > > the Toner will then jump up to the blank. As long as he flips 
> the 
> > > blank over before the charge dissapates, that toner is going to 
> stay 
> > > on the board.
> > > 
> > > Now, he takes the blank, with the un-fused toner on it, at sets 
> it 
> > > in a hotplate. At this point, the toner melts onto the blank. 
> There 
> > > is no paper to remove, the toner isn't going to come off and we 
> are 
> > > ready to etch.
> > > 
> > > I think its brilliant. Any other snide remarks you want to make? 
> or 
> > > are you just repeating what you learned from others as 
> documented at:
> > > http://www.crankorgan.com/whodabitchnow.htm
> > > 
> > > James.
> > >

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
<jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> > <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:

Does anyone else see the irony in two people fighting over comments
made to some one named gettingalongwouldbenice?

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> > > <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone else see the irony in two people fighting over comments
> made to some one named gettingalongwouldbenice?
> 
> Phil

It's one of the few "constants" of the internet.  All roads lead to
an eventual pissing contest.  But sometimes...something good dribbles
out along the way.
mike

Phil,
      I saw that right away. The funny part is the guy I was replying
to to did not get upset.  

                                         John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:

> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> > > <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone else see the irony in two people fighting over comments
> made to some one named gettingalongwouldbenice?
> 
> Phil

Mike,
     Hang in there! I ment no harm. I just think the static charge
might not be working or needed. I think once the toner gets on the
paper the static charge is out of the picture. But then again I can be
wrong. Don't let me stop you. Stay with it!

                                            John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gettingalongwouldbenice"
<gettingalongwouldbenice@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> > <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...>
wrote:

> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> > > > <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > Does anyone else see the irony in two people fighting over comments
> > made to some one named gettingalongwouldbenice?
> > 
> > Phil
> 
> It's one of the few "constants" of the internet.  All roads lead to
> an eventual pissing contest.  But sometimes...something good dribbles
> out along the way.
> mike

I've read what John K. said over and over. I can't see anything snide
or sarcastic in it.

I think you need to tone down your own snideness.

Steve, the listowner

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
<jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
...

> I think its brilliant. Any other snide remarks you want to make? or 
> are you just repeating what you learned from others as documented at:
> http://www.crankorgan.com/whodabitchnow.htm
> 
> James.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > 
> > I think you should read this page
> > 
> > http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/summer/scor/articles/scor54.htm
> > 
> > Once the toner is on the paper the charge of the paper and the 
> toner
> > are the same. While some toner might stick to the board some will 
> also
> > stay on the paper. The horse is out of the barn so to speak. The
> > transfer needed to make good circuit boards has to be near perfect.
> > 
> > 
> >

To address the idea: I suspect you'll see the same thing you'll see
when playing with a van de graaf generator- toss some snipped up
tinfoil bits at a running van de graaf generator, they'll fly to it
and then be repelled away as they pick up charge from the globe. Like
charges repel.

The reason it works in a laser printer or electrostatic copier, is the
paper is not charged, rather a thin wire on the other side of the
paper is charge so the toner never touches the charged object.

Note that no one is telling you not to try it.

Steve Greenfield

Steve,
       If you read my INFO section on my website and then come back
over you might read what I wrote differently. I have to be tough on my
website because I get lots of emails from people seeking my help or
telling me my machines can't work.  The Emails-Spam-Hacking-Pshing and
Virus attacks are taking alot of my free time.  Since I always use my
real name I am open to attacks from people who think I am only out to
sell my machines or push my weight around. I was a big time electronic
hobbiest before I ever sold a single thing. I still enjoy electronics.
I has been a big part of my 52 years. 
       
                                       John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:

> 
> I've read what John K. said over and over. I can't see anything snide
> or sarcastic in it.
> 
> I think you need to tone down your own snideness.
> 
> Steve, the listowner
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton"
> <jamesmichaelnewton@y...> wrote:
> ...
> > I think its brilliant. Any other snide remarks you want to make? or 
> > are you just repeating what you learned from others as documented at:
> > http://www.crankorgan.com/whodabitchnow.htm
> > 
> > James.
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I think you should read this page
> > > 
> > > http://www.physics.uoguelph.ca/summer/scor/articles/scor54.htm
> > > 
> > > Once the toner is on the paper the charge of the paper and the 
> > toner
> > > are the same. While some toner might stick to the board some will 
> > also
> > > stay on the paper. The horse is out of the barn so to speak. The
> > > transfer needed to make good circuit boards has to be near perfect.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >

I posted a picture of the next generation electrostatic
toner experiment to the photos page.

I ripped the fuser out of my HPLJ4L.
Printed the image on inkjet overhead transparency media.
Electrostatically transferred it to the copper.
Fused it on a hot plate. I overdid it.
You can see that the traces on the TQFP64 have run together.
I'm not sure the plastic media did any better than copy paper.
Haven't tried it on the picture paper.  Not sure whether I
can just heat it less or will need to compensate the
footprint for the spread.

Need a way to keep the image doner material from sliding
around on the copper when I place it.  I see hinges and
stuff in my future.

I have metrology problems.

I'm using an IR thermometer to measure temperature.  It won't
measure shiny copper.  Ideas?

I'm not really sure what the transfer voltage is.
Measures 6KV with a 600Meg resistor, but I'm running the
experiments open-circuit.  I can solve this by leaving the
meter connected, but

I'm terrified that I'm gonna arc something to ground
and blow out every transistor in every instrument on my
workbench.  Need a more controlled environment.

There's already a small wet spot on the floor 'cause
I grabbed the charged apparatus.

Not ready to give up just yet.

mike

On a different subject, I found RinsAway dissolving PVA paper at a local
fabric shop.  I didn't buy any because it didn't say it
was heat resistant.  And it didn't look all that smooth.
I'm down to 8mil track widths.
It's also all folded up in a small package.
Creases can't be good.  I did try toilet paper.  It starts out
all fluffy, but if you iron it before printing, it becomes a lot more
dimensionally 
stable.  It doesn't come
off any better than anything else.  But RV toilet paper might work
for small boards.  Can't remember where I stashed the RV stuff.

I bought a Pigma Micron 005 pen.  Has a 0.2mm linewidth.
Haven't had a chance to try it.  Might be interesting if it
turns out to be etchant resistant.  I did get an "almost good
enough" plot out of a Lumocolor 313-2 pen.  Just a little too
wide.  Also having problems with Protel 99SE.  It wants to split tracks
into segments and plot them at random.  Get chunks of almost dried
ink stuck on the pen.  Need a way to coerce it to plot a whole
track without lifting the pen.  Ideas?

I did install EAGLE and tried making a trace outline for a router.
This looks very promising for normal boards.  Ain't gonna help much
with the current board.

I haven't seen anything written about the effects of various
etchants on various resists.  Can't be all the same???
Bought some H2O2 and HCL.  Waiting for a resolution on the current
regeneration thread before I make some.

With the acid etch, can you use reverse plating at the same time?


And yes, I am running off in all directions at once.
So many things to try...so little time.

>>I'm using an IR thermometer to measure temperature.  It won't
measure shiny copper.  Ideas? <<
make sure that no Flouro lighting is used,  this raise's hell with the readings ..... in my experience's with IR

Thomas

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: gettingalongwouldbenice 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:35 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Electrostatic Toner Transfer



  I posted a picture of the next generation electrostatic
  toner experiment to the photos page.

  I ripped the fuser out of my HPLJ4L.
  Printed the image on inkjet overhead transparency media.
  Electrostatically transferred it to the copper.
  Fused it on a hot plate. I overdid it.
  You can see that the traces on the TQFP64 have run together.
  I'm not sure the plastic media did any better than copy paper.
  Haven't tried it on the picture paper.  Not sure whether I
  can just heat it less or will need to compensate the
  footprint for the spread.

  Need a way to keep the image doner material from sliding
  around on the copper when I place it.  I see hinges and
  stuff in my future.

  I have metrology problems.

  I'm using an IR thermometer to measure temperature.  It won't
  measure shiny copper.  Ideas?

  I'm not really sure what the transfer voltage is.
  Measures 6KV with a 600Meg resistor, but I'm running the
  experiments open-circuit.  I can solve this by leaving the
  meter connected, but

  I'm terrified that I'm gonna arc something to ground
  and blow out every transistor in every instrument on my
  workbench.  Need a more controlled environment.

  There's already a small wet spot on the floor 'cause
  I grabbed the charged apparatus.

  Not ready to give up just yet.

  mike

  On a different subject, I found RinsAway dissolving PVA paper at a local
  fabric shop.  I didn't buy any because it didn't say it
  was heat resistant.  And it didn't look all that smooth.
  I'm down to 8mil track widths.
  It's also all folded up in a small package.
  Creases can't be good.  I did try toilet paper.  It starts out
  all fluffy, but if you iron it before printing, it becomes a lot more
  dimensionally 
  stable.  It doesn't come
  off any better than anything else.  But RV toilet paper might work
  for small boards.  Can't remember where I stashed the RV stuff.

  I bought a Pigma Micron 005 pen.  Has a 0.2mm linewidth.
  Haven't had a chance to try it.  Might be interesting if it
  turns out to be etchant resistant.  I did get an "almost good
  enough" plot out of a Lumocolor 313-2 pen.  Just a little too
  wide.  Also having problems with Protel 99SE.  It wants to split tracks
  into segments and plot them at random.  Get chunks of almost dried
  ink stuck on the pen.  Need a way to coerce it to plot a whole
  track without lifting the pen.  Ideas?

  I did install EAGLE and tried making a trace outline for a router.
  This looks very promising for normal boards.  Ain't gonna help much
  with the current board.

  I haven't seen anything written about the effects of various
  etchants on various resists.  Can't be all the same???
  Bought some H2O2 and HCL.  Waiting for a resolution on the current
  regeneration thread before I make some.

  With the acid etch, can you use reverse plating at the same time?


  And yes, I am running off in all directions at once.
  So many things to try...so little time.









  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was refering only to your post on this group.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:

> 
> Steve,
>        If you read my INFO section on my website and then come back
> over you might read what I wrote differently. I have to be tough on my
> website because I get lots of emails from people seeking my help or
> telling me my machines can't work.  The Emails-Spam-Hacking-Pshing and
> Virus attacks are taking alot of my free time.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas" <teecee@c...> wrote:
> >>I'm using an IR thermometer to measure temperature.  It won't
> measure shiny copper.  Ideas? <<
> make sure that no Flouro lighting is used,  this raise's hell with
the readings ..... in my experience's with IR

-snip- entire previous message

Please don't forget to trim. Eventually we'll reach the storage limit
on Yahoogroups and start losing the earlier messages.

Regarding measuring temp of the copper with a noncontact pyrometer:
make a mark on it with a black marker.

Steve