Homebrew PCBs

Hi Mike
What is the best proven laminator to use for good circuit boards
and what staples paper is used.
A.R

mikezcnc wrote:

>A way to do make your own PCBs and be successful at it:
>
>1. A certain laminator previously mentioned on this forum.
>2. Staples paper.
>
>Just a reminder for people needing direction. 
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>  
>

Hello,

I am trying to make a pcb using the toner transfer method and have a 
couple questions regarding it. I hope someone can shed some 
expertise on them for me.

1) I purchased the Staples picture paper and printed a pattern out 
on my Laser printer but I am unsure as to which side to print on. I 
am assuming that you print on the glossy side but after doing that 
and ironing it on a clean acetoned PCB the pattern seemed to 
transfer to it but its not as dark as I have seen on some websites 
and some traces are broken in the middle. My trace width is .020 
which is not that thin. So I thought maybe I am using the wrong side?

2) How long do you heat the paper for? I tried it for at least 1 
minute to where it was so hot it sizzled in the water. The back of 
the paper was turning yellowish from the heat but maybe it needs to 
be longer? It peeled off pretty easy and it left a whitish substance 
on the traces which I am assuming is paper. I scrubbed that off but 
the traces like I said are kindof weak.

Thanks again for all your help!

I think people print on the shiney side.  The transfered traces should
look black (well, actually a very very very dark blue).  If you see
copper through them, you aren't getting enough on.

you should try etching the board.  That's the real test.  You will
know if you are getting enough toner down.

How "thick" is the toner on the paper before you iron?  How much toner
is left on the paper after you peel it off?  You should have little to
none left on the paper.  I've had poor luck with the picture/photo
paper - my traces were getting crushed and widened.  I much prefer
inkjet paper - much cheaper and very tolerant of different degrees of
pressure.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> wrote:

> 
> Hello,
> 
> I am trying to make a pcb using the toner transfer method and have a 
> couple questions regarding it. I hope someone can shed some 
> expertise on them for me.
> 
> 1) I purchased the Staples picture paper and printed a pattern out 
> on my Laser printer but I am unsure as to which side to print on. I 
> am assuming that you print on the glossy side but after doing that 
> and ironing it on a clean acetoned PCB the pattern seemed to 
> transfer to it but its not as dark as I have seen on some websites 
> and some traces are broken in the middle. My trace width is .020 
> which is not that thin. So I thought maybe I am using the wrong side?
> 
> 2) How long do you heat the paper for? I tried it for at least 1 
> minute to where it was so hot it sizzled in the water. The back of 
> the paper was turning yellowish from the heat but maybe it needs to 
> be longer? It peeled off pretty easy and it left a whitish substance 
> on the traces which I am assuming is paper. I scrubbed that off but 
> the traces like I said are kindof weak.
> 
> Thanks again for all your help!

Thanks for answering me, there was a couple spots very small that 
stayed on the paper when I pulled it off. I am assuming I didn't 
heat it long enough or press hard enough. When you say inkjet paper 
which brand are you using? Is it like regular white ream paper or 
special stuff?

Thanks!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> I think people print on the shiney side.  The transfered traces 
should
> look black (well, actually a very very very dark blue).  If you see
> copper through them, you aren't getting enough on.
> 
> you should try etching the board.  That's the real test.  You will
> know if you are getting enough toner down.
> 
> How "thick" is the toner on the paper before you iron?  How much 
toner
> is left on the paper after you peel it off?  You should have 
little to
> none left on the paper.  I've had poor luck with the picture/photo
> paper - my traces were getting crushed and widened.  I much prefer
> inkjet paper - much cheaper and very tolerant of different degrees 
of
> pressure.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I am trying to make a pcb using the toner transfer method and 
have a 
> > couple questions regarding it. I hope someone can shed some 
> > expertise on them for me.
> > 
> > 1) I purchased the Staples picture paper and printed a pattern 
out 
> > on my Laser printer but I am unsure as to which side to print 
on. I 
> > am assuming that you print on the glossy side but after doing 
that 
> > and ironing it on a clean acetoned PCB the pattern seemed to 
> > transfer to it but its not as dark as I have seen on some 
websites 
> > and some traces are broken in the middle. My trace width is .020 
> > which is not that thin. So I thought maybe I am using the wrong 
side?
> > 
> > 2) How long do you heat the paper for? I tried it for at least 1 
> > minute to where it was so hot it sizzled in the water. The back 
of 
> > the paper was turning yellowish from the heat but maybe it needs 
to 
> > be longer? It peeled off pretty easy and it left a whitish 
substance 
> > on the traces which I am assuming is paper. I scrubbed that off 
but 

> > the traces like I said are kindof weak.
> > 
> > Thanks again for all your help!

You've probably got a decent transfer.  etch it, dano.

For inkjet paper brands, look in the database section.  There are a
number of inkjet papers people have reported good results with.  I've
used 2 brands, Georgia Pacific InkjetPlus+ and, iirc, office max
inkjet paper.  Both did well though I am very very happy with the
Georgia Pacific stuff.   Inkjet papers are coated to prevent the ink
from soaking into the paper and blooming.  Its basically regular
inkjet paper - I'd bet any brand will work fine.  Just make sure is
says "formulated for inkjet printers" or similar.  Don't use laser
printer, copier or general purpose paper. Typically <$4 for a ream of 500.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> wrote:

> 
> Thanks for answering me, there was a couple spots very small that 
> stayed on the paper when I pulled it off. I am assuming I didn't 
> heat it long enough or press hard enough. When you say inkjet paper 
> which brand are you using? Is it like regular white ream paper or 
> special stuff?
>

I just made another "test" board using Staples Picture Paper and 
this time used more pressure and time under the iron and I am amazed 
at the quality you can achieve!! There is no going back to the "old" 
way for me...this works great! Thanks for all your help.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> You've probably got a decent transfer.  etch it, dano.
> 
> For inkjet paper brands, look in the database section.  There are a
> number of inkjet papers people have reported good results with.  
I've
> used 2 brands, Georgia Pacific InkjetPlus+ and, iirc, office max
> inkjet paper.  Both did well though I am very very happy with the
> Georgia Pacific stuff.   Inkjet papers are coated to prevent the 
ink
> from soaking into the paper and blooming.  Its basically regular
> inkjet paper - I'd bet any brand will work fine.  Just make sure is
> says "formulated for inkjet printers" or similar.  Don't use laser
> printer, copier or general purpose paper. Typically <$4 for a ream 
of 500.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > Thanks for answering me, there was a couple spots very small 
that 
> > stayed on the paper when I pulled it off. I am assuming I didn't 
> > heat it long enough or press hard enough. When you say inkjet 
paper 
> > which brand are you using? Is it like regular white ream paper 
or 
> > special stuff?
> >

If you have a vacuum pump (even a good shop vac or vacuum cleaner) you can put the board and the artwork in a Reynolds Aluminum 'Bake 'n Bag", pull a vacuum and set the iron on it.  That should generate much more force (and much more unifom force at that) than you could ever generate by hand.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Weiss 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:24 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Questions about toner transfer method.



  I just made another "test" board using Staples Picture Paper and 
  this time used more pressure and time under the iron and I am amazed 
  at the quality you can achieve!! There is no going back to the "old" 
  way for me...this works great! Thanks for all your help.



  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
  > 
  > You've probably got a decent transfer.  etch it, dano.
  > 
  > For inkjet paper brands, look in the database section.  There are a
  > number of inkjet papers people have reported good results with.  
  I've
  > used 2 brands, Georgia Pacific InkjetPlus+ and, iirc, office max
  > inkjet paper.  Both did well though I am very very happy with the
  > Georgia Pacific stuff.   Inkjet papers are coated to prevent the 
  ink
  > from soaking into the paper and blooming.  Its basically regular
  > inkjet paper - I'd bet any brand will work fine.  Just make sure is
  > says "formulated for inkjet printers" or similar.  Don't use laser
  > printer, copier or general purpose paper. Typically <$4 for a ream 
  of 500.
  > 
  > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> 
  wrote:
  > > 
  > > Thanks for answering me, there was a couple spots very small 
  that 
  > > stayed on the paper when I pulled it off. I am assuming I didn't 
  > > heat it long enough or press hard enough. When you say inkjet 
  paper 
  > > which brand are you using? Is it like regular white ream paper 
  or 
  > > special stuff?
  > >





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

yes, that is quite amazing...

Except for that paper is not politically correct because it offends 
the TT-feelings in some members...Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> wrote:
> 
> I just made another "test" board using Staples Picture Paper and 
> this time used more pressure and time under the iron and I am 
amazed 
> at the quality you can achieve!! There is no going back to 
the "old" 
> way for me...this works great! Thanks for all your help.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> 
wrote:
> > 
> > You've probably got a decent transfer.  etch it, dano.
> > 
> > For inkjet paper brands, look in the database section.  There are 
a
> > number of inkjet papers people have reported good results with.  
> I've
> > used 2 brands, Georgia Pacific InkjetPlus+ and, iirc, office max
> > inkjet paper.  Both did well though I am very very happy with the
> > Georgia Pacific stuff.   Inkjet papers are coated to prevent the 
> ink
> > from soaking into the paper and blooming.  Its basically regular
> > inkjet paper - I'd bet any brand will work fine.  Just make sure 
is
> > says "formulated for inkjet printers" or similar.  Don't use laser
> > printer, copier or general purpose paper. Typically <$4 for a 
ream 
> of 500.
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Weiss" <BWeiss@p...> 
> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Thanks for answering me, there was a couple spots very small 
> that 
> > > stayed on the paper when I pulled it off. I am assuming I 
didn't 

> > > heat it long enough or press hard enough. When you say inkjet 
> paper 
> > > which brand are you using? Is it like regular white ream paper 
> or 
> > > special stuff?
> > >

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> yes, that is quite amazing...
> 
> Except for that paper is not politically correct because it offends 
> the TT-feelings in some members...Mike
> 

You are so right mike.  Its totally unreasonable that some people
claim that there is only one way to do things.

this is an interesting idea.  Has anyone tried it?  The bag should
stand up to the temperatures needed.  It just remains to heat the
bag/board assembly.  You could just iron the whole assembly though it
would be a sorry mess if you overshot the temperature.  I wonder if an
infra-red heater bulb could do it?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Earl T. Hackett, Jr."
<hacketet@c...> wrote:
> If you have a vacuum pump (even a good shop vac or vacuum cleaner)
you can put the board and the artwork in a Reynolds Aluminum 'Bake 'n
Bag", pull a vacuum and set the iron on it.  That should generate much
more force (and much more unifom force at that) than you could ever
generate by hand.

Hello,

Although I like your idea...

The MOST force you can get from a vacuum is 14.7 lbs/inch. At sea 
level. Most vac pumps are rated in inches of mercury, and this is 
29.92 inches. Most "common" vac pumps will give about 25 inches--or 
less-- of vacuum, so you're going to have even less pressure. I've 
done a LOT with vacuum clamping over the years, and use 10-12 lbs per 
square inch as a ROT (Rule Of Thumb<G>) I'm working near sea level.

So with a 2 x 4 inch board, we're gonna get 80 to 96 pounds of 
pressure. I'm no "Arnold", but I can surely do that with an iron...

BUT, as I first mentioned, I like your idea. And I think that the 
pressure attainable WILL be enough. But we CAN provide more with a 
handheld iron, IMO.

Another similar idea which seems to have gotten lost in the mix when 
it was posted; about using an electric frying pan, washcloth and a 
lead brick instead of an iron. 
Good heat control, accurate, repeatable even pressure (if your brick 
of lead isn't flat you'll need something flat between it and the 
washcloth). The only thing remaining is time, and that's easily 
monitored/controlled.

Your setup duplicates this, and "could" provide equally repeatable 
pressure. A brake bleeder tool--any Auto parts store-- will give you 
a simple means of accurately repeating the vacuum. 

Using an electric frypan/griddle (cheap new and even moreso at EVERY 
salvation army/thrift store everywhere<G>) and a weight (doesn't have 
to be lead, but diver's weights are resdily available, as are other 
sources of lead or similar "heavy" things, like thick steel plate.) 
is a simple effective way to avoid the need for a laminator, which 
still seems to me to be the best overall answer.

But I DO like your idea! 

Ballendo



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Earl T. Hackett, Jr." 
<hacketet@c...> wrote:
> If you have a vacuum pump (even a good shop vac or vacuum cleaner) 
you can put the board and the artwork in a Reynolds Aluminum 'Bake 'n 
Bag", pull a vacuum and set the iron on it.  That should generate 
much more force (and much more unifom force at that) than you could 
ever generate by hand.
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Bob Weiss 
>   To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:24 PM
>   Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Questions about toner transfer 
method.
> 
> 
> 
>   I just made another "test" board using Staples Picture Paper and 
>   this time used more pressure and time under the iron and I am 
amazed 
>   at the quality you can achieve!! There is no going back to 
the "old" 
>   way for me...this works great! Thanks for all your help.
>

A way to do make your own PCBs and be successful at it:

1. A certain laminator previously mentioned on this forum.
2. Staples paper.

Just a reminder for people needing direction. 

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> wrote:
...
> 
> Another similar idea which seems to have gotten lost in the mix when 
> it was posted; about using an electric frying pan, washcloth and a 
> lead brick instead of an iron. 
> Good heat control, accurate, repeatable even pressure (if your brick 
> of lead isn't flat you'll need something flat between it and the 
> washcloth). The only thing remaining is time, and that's easily 
> monitored/controlled.
> 

One issue with those electric frying pans is hotspotting.  I don't
know if that will cause problems but if it does, one could use a large
thermal mass (like a flat steel/cast iron plate) to even it out.  It
would just take more heat up time.

I've often though of something along similar lines - use 2 flat
steel/cast iron plates, thick enough to not warp at the toner fusing
point.  4 holes, one in each corner.  Using bolts and wingnuts, one
could create pretty good pressure.  Pop it in the oven set for 350F
(or what ever is the right temp).  Baking time would be determined by
experimentation.

I suspect the problem with this is that total time would be long -
30-45 minutes. The advantages are like you said - repeatable,
controllable temp and pressure.

A properly constructed laser printer fuser assembly would probably
yield the best results for the least amount of time.

I just happen to have some good vacuum equipment in my shop that I use for vacuum casting.  Getting a hard vacuum isn't a big deal for me.  I've laminated some large plywood sheets with a shop vac and a BIG vacuum bag (boat building) which is about the other extreme.  Some associates built some fiberglass refridgerated rail cars with a similar technology.

I certainly wouldn't recommend going out and purchasing a $5000 or more vacuum pump just to make PCBs for a hobby.  It's a cheap simple way to get good pressure if the hardware is on hand.

By the way, I can't take credit for the 'Bake 'n Bag' idea - but the poor old gray cells can't remember who suggeted it to me....

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ballendo 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 7:11 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Questions about toner transfer method.



  Hello,

  Although I like your idea...

  The MOST force you can get from a vacuum is 14.7 lbs/inch. At sea 
  level. Most vac pumps are rated in inches of mercury, and this is 
  29.92 inches. Most "common" vac pumps will give about 25 inches--or 
  less-- of vacuum, so you're going to have even less pressure. I've 
  done a LOT with vacuum clamping over the years, and use 10-12 lbs per 
  square inch as a ROT (Rule Of Thumb<G>) I'm working near sea level.

  So with a 2 x 4 inch board, we're gonna get 80 to 96 pounds of 
  pressure. I'm no "Arnold", but I can surely do that with an iron...

  BUT, as I first mentioned, I like your idea. And I think that the 
  pressure attainable WILL be enough. But we CAN provide more with a 
  handheld iron, IMO.

  Another similar idea which seems to have gotten lost in the mix when 
  it was posted; about using an electric frying pan, washcloth and a 
  lead brick instead of an iron. 
  Good heat control, accurate, repeatable even pressure (if your brick 
  of lead isn't flat you'll need something flat between it and the 
  washcloth). The only thing remaining is time, and that's easily 
  monitored/controlled.

  Your setup duplicates this, and "could" provide equally repeatable 
  pressure. A brake bleeder tool--any Auto parts store-- will give you 
  a simple means of accurately repeating the vacuum. 

  Using an electric frypan/griddle (cheap new and even moreso at EVERY 
  salvation army/thrift store everywhere<G>) and a weight (doesn't have 
  to be lead, but diver's weights are resdily available, as are other 
  sources of lead or similar "heavy" things, like thick steel plate.) 
  is a simple effective way to avoid the need for a laminator, which 
  still seems to me to be the best overall answer.

  But I DO like your idea! 

  Ballendo



  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Earl T. Hackett, Jr." 
  <hacketet@c...> wrote:
  > If you have a vacuum pump (even a good shop vac or vacuum cleaner) 
  you can put the board and the artwork in a Reynolds Aluminum 'Bake 'n 
  Bag", pull a vacuum and set the iron on it.  That should generate 
  much more force (and much more unifom force at that) than you could 
  ever generate by hand.
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >   From: Bob Weiss 
  >   To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  >   Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:24 PM
  >   Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Questions about toner transfer 
  method.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   I just made another "test" board using Staples Picture Paper and 
  >   this time used more pressure and time under the iron and I am 
  amazed 
  >   at the quality you can achieve!! There is no going back to 
  the "old" 
  >   way for me...this works great! Thanks for all your help.
  > 






  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       


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    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Quick update about the "Tabajara Toner Transfer"\ufffd Method:

    - It works best with couche paper WHITE and a higher "gramatura"
(weight? Higher thickness) than "Time magazine paper".
    - The best toner to be transfered is that one that you passes your
finger thru the paper printed, and you can FEEL the tracks
    - Using ferric perchorate (?), it ONLY works OK if you make the
temperature of the substance higher. I took an old soldering iron, put it
inside a glass testing tube filled with sand, and hotted the bath (wow, my
english today is worse than ever, I must be sleeping yet!). I did the best
board I did in my life EVER. Way better than many fabs in Brazil
    - To deattach the couche paper, you must put the board 10 or 15 minutes
into a water bath. Maybe caustic soda or soap can help, but after 10
minutes, you deattach the TOP paper cover. The rest you take out rubbing
your finger.
    - The last and MORE IMPORTANT STEP is to take a toothbrush, brush it in
soap, and after brush the ENTIRE board to take out ALL the paper residues.
If you miss this step, you'll have problems corroding some fine tracks.

    The board got SO good, but SO GOOD, that I could pass two traces between
two IC pins. Believe it or not. I hope to post some photos tonight.

    Sorry for the bad english, I didn't slept well, and I'm in my work, busy
as hell. Just remembered to update the story here, and prepare you for the
best TTT\ufffd boards ever made heheheehe :o)\

    Greetings from Brazil
    Alexandre Souza


---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.779 / Virus Database: 526 - Release Date: 19/10/04

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Alexandre Souza"
<alexandre-listas@e...> wrote:
...
>     - The last and MORE IMPORTANT STEP is to take a toothbrush,
brush it in
> soap, and after brush the ENTIRE board to take out ALL the paper
residues.
> If you miss this step, you'll have problems corroding some fine tracks.
> 

congrats on a good transfer - there is something really satisfying
about creating something like that.

I'd be very carefull with that toothbrush.  While it will get the
paper residue, it can also take off toner.   I was getting gaps in
some of my thinner traces until I noticed microscratches from the
toothbrush which was letting in the etchant.  I stopped using the
brush after that.  It decreased pinholing as well.

Phil

Alvin, 

The laminator is made by GBC and model that I use and recommend is 
H200, 8.5x11" about $100.

Good luck.

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alvin Rose <ajroseca@n...> 
wrote:
> Hi Mike
> What is the best proven laminator to use for good circuit boards
> and what staples paper is used.
> A.R
> 
> mikezcnc wrote:
> 
> >A way to do make your own PCBs and be successful at it:
> >
> >1. A certain laminator previously mentioned on this forum.
> >2. Staples paper.
> >
> >Just a reminder for people needing direction. 
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and 
files:

> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> Alvin, 
> 
> The laminator is made by GBC and model that I use and recommend is 
> H200, 8.5x11" about $100.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Mike
> 

This unit works pretty well but you should be aware the if you are
using .062 (regular thickness) copper clad material, you will need to
modify the unit.  Its not hard unless one is mechanically challenged.
 Here are the instructions:
<http://www.pulsar.gs/1-tts/c_pcb/pcb_pages/5_the_ideal_PCB_setup/support/TIA%20Modifications.pdf>
read them thoroughly and then read them again.  It can be a bit confusing.

I'm not sure at what thickness you don't have to modify but I do know
that the 0.031 material feeds ok through an unmod'd device.  The
Electronic Goldmine is selling that stuff but they seem incapable of
actually shipping an order these days.

Hi all..

remember the eyelets discussion?
1000 ferrules (for putting on stranded wire) sell for 4eur.
they are available with 0.5mm diameter.

1000 eyelets cost 20eur so the ferrules are quite a bit cheaper...

ST

Alvin,

The details of the Staples "Picture Paper" are on my pcb webpage, at:

http://www/fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm

I haven't yet acquired an H200 laminator, but am planning to.  

I still use a clothes iron.  Once I had a "feel" for how to do it, that way, it never failed.  But, none of my boards used to be larger than the iron's bottom surface.  Some of the boards I make, now, ARE larger than the iron. But it still works just as well, by doing them in sections.

There are also apparently quite a few people who have successfully modified, and used as pcb-pattern laminators, the fuser roller assemblies from laser printers and (I think) copiers.  Someone emailed me, just the other day, who is using a personal  computer to monitor and control both the temperature and the speed of a modified laser fuser assembly. I think he said that by using a very low speed, he can laminate  patterns onto pcboards with just one pass through the fuser rollers.

Good luck!

Tom Gootee
tomg@...
http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg

-------------- ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
      <snipped>
> What is the best proven laminator to use for good circuit boards
> and what staples paper is used.
> A.R.
<snipped>



























































________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 5         
   Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 13:17:48 +1000

   From: Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Photoresist spray and UV light failures

fjimenezg2003 wrote:
> 
>>I get %100 consistancy from spray-on PRP (green).
> 
> I'vw tried the electrolube PRP spray (green) without any luck. 
> Minutes after I've applied the spray over the surface of the board, 
> the coating starts to corrupt, first appearing bubbles on the 
> surface. Could you explain what procedure do you use?. 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> P.D.: I've tried Seno photoresist with great results.

Scrub the pcb with any abrasive household bathroom/kitchen cleaner
(usually white creamy stuff), then rinse and observe if the surface
stays wet with a thin layer of water or whether it beads (has oil).
If it beads, you'll need to figure out where the oil comes from.

Some cleaning sponges release their own oil, so try cleaning using
a wet paper towel and kitchen cleaner.

Dry the pcb with one or two swipes against a roll of paper towel,
and blow with hot-air gun for 5-10 secs. Brush surface with clean
paint brush to remove any dust and lint.

Hold the pcb horizontal by a corner with some pliers, and spray with
side-to-side strokes with prp to give a smooth coating. The thinnest
coating that allows all the droplets to join and give a smooth surface
is adequate.

Hold for 10-15s to allow solvent to evaporate a bit. Always hold the
pcb horizontal.

Blow/heat with hot air gun for 30 secs to fully dry. This step can often
be from as little as 15 secs to as long as you want. I can tell by feel
that the pcb is around 50-70 deg C.

PCB is now ready. No need to bake for hours or overnight as the
instructions say.

You can do it in ambient (non-fluoro) room light or outdoors (not in
direct sunlight).

In a lightbox with four 8 Watt black-light (whitish tubes) fluros
at 7-8cm from the pcb, exposure of 5 mins is ideal with a decent
transparency printout.

Beware that if you put your pcb against the ink side of a fresh transparency
printout, the prp may peel/flake off during developing. The vapour from the
ink does this. You'll need to dry the printout in front of a fan heater for
10-15mins, or put the pcb against the non-ink side of the printout (can give
less sharp detail tho). Epson ink/transparency has this problem, but usually
has the sharpest detail printouts because epson transparency has a gelatine
coating that absorbs the ink quickly.


________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

H200 and Staples paper- the winning commbination.

PS I just acquired 10000, shares each of Staples and GBC. That means 
that everybody purchasing those products invests in my future!  Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas P. Gootee" <tomg@f...> 
wrote:
> Alvin,
> 
> The details of the Staples "Picture Paper" are on my pcb webpage, 
at:
> 
> http://www/fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
> 
> I haven't yet acquired an H200 laminator, but am planning to.  
> 
> I still use a clothes iron.  Once I had a "feel" for how to do it, 
that way, it never failed.  But, none of my boards used to be larger 
than the iron's bottom surface.  Some of the boards I make, now, ARE 
larger than the iron. But it still works just as well, by doing them 
in sections.
> 
> There are also apparently quite a few people who have successfully 
modified, and used as pcb-pattern laminators, the fuser roller 
assemblies from laser printers and (I think) copiers.  Someone 
emailed me, just the other day, who is using a personal  computer to 
monitor and control both the temperature and the speed of a modified 
laser fuser assembly. I think he said that by using a very low speed, 
he can laminate  patterns onto pcboards with just one pass through 
the fuser rollers.

> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Tom Gootee
> tomg@f...
> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg

On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:28:40 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

>
>
> H200 and Staples paper- the winning commbination.
>
> PS I just acquired 10000, shares each of Staples and GBC. That means
> that everybody purchasing those products invests in my future!  Mike


Now we know why you are so insistent on advertising that combination :-)

ST

hahahahaha+ha!!

By the way, thank you for the schematic of circuit controlling the 
fuser. I plan on building one later. Mike

Tom -

I went looking for some Picture Paper at my local STaples. It turns
out that American SKU numbers are different than Canadian SKU numbers
for the same product, at least that's what the manager told me.

So I took a chance on 30 sheets of Staples "premium photo paper". The
SKU is #33128-CA. The UPC is 7 18103 02239. 

The paper is a brilliant white, and shiny, and almost feels like
plastic in texture. Does this sound like it might be the same as the
US Picture Paper?

I tried it on one small PCB. The paper did not float, away after
sitting in hot water for 10 minutes. But I was able to pry it off most
of the PCB, and rub off the small partion which was left after ripping
off the rest. The toner transfer was excellent, with sharp and
complete traces, with a notable thickness to them. It looks great.
There were no pinholes, but there were no large areas.

Thanks to Thomas and the list for bringing the Staples paper to my
attention.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas P. Gootee" <tomg@f...>
wrote:

> The details of the Staples "Picture Paper" are on my pcb webpage, at:
> 
> http://www/fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
>

I believe the Canadian equivalent of the paper Tom's site identified has 
the SKU of  #33133-CA.  The bar code is the same as the US version:  7 
18103 02238 5.  It's the "Picture Paper" rather than the premium photo 
paper. I've had excellent results with it and it's cheaper than the 
premium if I remember correctly.

Dennis

grantfair2001 wrote:

>Tom -
>
>I went looking for some Picture Paper at my local STaples. It turns
>out that American SKU numbers are different than Canadian SKU numbers
>for the same product, at least that's what the manager told me.
>
>So I took a chance on 30 sheets of Staples "premium photo paper". The
>SKU is #33128-CA. The UPC is 7 18103 02239. 
>
>The paper is a brilliant white, and shiny, and almost feels like
>plastic in texture. Does this sound like it might be the same as the
>US Picture Paper?
>
>I tried it on one small PCB. The paper did not float, away after
>sitting in hot water for 10 minutes. But I was able to pry it off most
>of the PCB, and rub off the small partion which was left after ripping
>off the rest. The toner transfer was excellent, with sharp and
>complete traces, with a notable thickness to them. It looks great.
>There were no pinholes, but there were no large areas.
>
>Thanks to Thomas and the list for bringing the Staples paper to my
>attention.
>
>Grant
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas P. Gootee" <tomg@f...>
>wrote:
>  
>  
>
>>The details of the Staples "Picture Paper" are on my pcb webpage, at:
>>
>>http://www/fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
>>
>>    
>>
>
>  
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dennis - thanks. The store I was in only had Picture Paper in 100
sheet packages. Have you found it in 30 page packs?

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, millerdl <millerdl@t...> wrote:
> I believe the Canadian equivalent of the paper Tom's site identified
has 

> the SKU of  #33133-CA.  The bar code is the same as the US version:  7 
> 18103 02238 5.  It's the "Picture Paper" rather than the premium photo 
> paper. I've had excellent results with it and it's cheaper than the 
> premium if I remember correctly.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> grantfair2001 wrote:
> 
> >Tom -
> >
> >I went looking for some Picture Paper at my local STaples. It turns
> >out that American SKU numbers are different than Canadian SKU numbers
> >for the same product, at least that's what the manager told me.
> >
> >So I took a chance on 30 sheets of Staples "premium photo paper". The
> >SKU is #33128-CA. The UPC is 7 18103 02239. 
> >
> >The paper is a brilliant white, and shiny, and almost feels like
> >plastic in texture. Does this sound like it might be the same as the
> >US Picture Paper?
> >
> >I tried it on one small PCB. The paper did not float, away after
> >sitting in hot water for 10 minutes. But I was able to pry it off most
> >of the PCB, and rub off the small partion which was left after ripping
> >off the rest. The toner transfer was excellent, with sharp and
> >complete traces, with a notable thickness to them. It looks great.
> >There were no pinholes, but there were no large areas.
> >
> >Thanks to Thomas and the list for bringing the Staples paper to my
> >attention.
> >
> >Grant
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas P. Gootee" <tomg@f...>
> >wrote:
> >  
> >  
> >
> >>The details of the Staples "Picture Paper" are on my pcb webpage, at:
> >>
> >>http://www/fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Count yourself lucky - I haven't been able to find it at all in the UK.
All I
> got from the sales staff was the classic deer-in-headlights "Dummy Mode
ON!"
> stare, followed by "Uhm, we've got our ownbrand photo paper but that's
about
> it".
> Has anyone managed to get the Staples Picture Paper in the UK?

    Always the same blah blah blah...Use couch\ufffd paper (a bright, wax-coated
paper) of high thickness, and it will work flawlessly, if you dissolve the
paper in water instead of peeling it from the board.

    Wait for the photos...


---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 25/10/04

In message <clnbuh+10bqt@...>
          "grantfair2001" <grant.fair@...> wrote:

> Dennis - thanks. The store I was in only had Picture Paper in 100
> sheet packages. Have you found it in 30 page packs?

Count yourself lucky - I haven't been able to find it at all in the UK. All I
got from the sales staff was the classic deer-in-headlights "Dummy Mode ON!"
stare, followed by "Uhm, we've got our ownbrand photo paper but that's about
it".

Has anyone managed to get the Staples Picture Paper in the UK?

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem@...              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

> Count yourself lucky - I haven't been able to find it at all in the UK.  
> All I
> got from the sales staff was the classic deer-in-headlights "Dummy Mode  
> ON!"
> stare, followed by "Uhm, we've got our ownbrand photo paper but that's  
> about
> it".
>
> Has anyone managed to get the Staples Picture Paper in the UK?
>
> Later.


You needn't staple's.
Perhaps you can get Zweckform/Avery paper.
Many brands of matt inkjet photo paper will work just as well,
you only need the coating to prevent the good bond with the long, open  
fiber structure
of normal paper.
Don't go through too much trouble finding staples paper or GBC laminators,  
there are plenty
of options.

ST

<Snip>
Use couchê paper (a bright, wax-coated paper) of high thickness, and it will work flawlessly, if you dissolve the
paper in water instead of peeling it from the board.
<unsnip>

please Do tell us more about this paper, a google search on this has few worth while results..... :)
Thomas

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alexandre Souza 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:44 PM
  Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Canadian "picture paper" at Staples?


  > Count yourself lucky - I haven't been able to find it at all in the UK.
  All I
  > got from the sales staff was the classic deer-in-headlights "Dummy Mode
  ON!"
  > stare, followed by "Uhm, we've got our ownbrand photo paper but that's
  about
  > it".
  > Has anyone managed to get the Staples Picture Paper in the UK?

      Always the same blah blah blah...Use couchê paper (a bright, wax-coated
  paper) of high thickness, and it will work flawlessly, if you dissolve the
  paper in water instead of peeling it from the board.

      Wait for the photos...


  ---

  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
  Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 25/10/04



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> It sounds like the stuff glossy magazines are printed on. It might
actually
> be similar to the paper Microchip et al use for their flyers - glossy,
about
> 100gsm, like thin card.
> The stuff magazines are printed on tends to be much thinner - probably
around
> 70gsm.

    Exactly that. I use 150gsm paper, and let the board soak in water. I
brush my fingers in the paper to take the "first layer" of paper out, let
some time more to soak the second layer, and brush it again with fingers to
take all the paper out. After that, a good toothbrush with soap to clean
everything, and the board is ready to be IMEDIATELY corroded - if you let it
oxidize, it will be a nightmare to corrode.


---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 25/10/04

In message <004001c4bc1e$081c7520$0900000a@tc>
          "Thomas" <teecee@...> wrote:

> 
> <Snip>
> Use couch\ufffd paper (a bright, wax-coated paper) of high thickness, and it will work flawlessly, if you dissolve the
> paper in water instead of peeling it from the board.
> <unsnip>
> 
> please Do tell us more about this paper, a google search on this has few worth while results..... :)
> Thomas

It sounds like the stuff glossy magazines are printed on. It might actually
be similar to the paper Microchip et al use for their flyers - glossy, about
100gsm, like thin card.
The stuff magazines are printed on tends to be much thinner - probably around
70gsm.

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem@...              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Take care of the pennies and the Inland Revenue will take care of the rest.

Avery was a problem for me: 8.5x11" Avery lables backing paper is 
precut, ie the backing paper cannot be used unless one makes 
unusually small PCBs. As far as transfer capability is ocncerned, I 
did not notice any greatness in it.  Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Count yourself lucky - I haven't been able to find it at all in 
the UK.  
> > All I
> > got from the sales staff was the classic deer-in-
headlights "Dummy Mode  
> > ON!"
> > stare, followed by "Uhm, we've got our ownbrand photo paper but 
that's  
> > about
> > it".
> >
> > Has anyone managed to get the Staples Picture Paper in the UK?
> >
> > Later.
> 
> 
> You needn't staple's.
> Perhaps you can get Zweckform/Avery paper.
> Many brands of matt inkjet photo paper will work just as well,
> you only need the coating to prevent the good bond with the long, 
open  
> fiber structure
> of normal paper.
> Don't go through too much trouble finding staples paper or GBC 
laminators,  

> there are plenty
> of options.
> 
> ST

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:16:47 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

>
>
> Avery was a problem for me: 8.5x11" Avery lables backing paper is
> precut, ie the backing paper cannot be used unless one makes
> unusually small PCBs. As far as transfer capability is ocncerned, I
> did not notice any greatness in it.  Mike
>
>

Not backing paper. photo paper.
Avery/Zweckform makes more than labels.
For numbers see the database section.

ST

> By 'corroding' you really mean 'etching' right? I didn't know that
> oxidized copper makes a difference in etching process. Is that what
> others observed? It may take a bit longer but does it really cause
> etching problems? Mike

    Small oxidized points in the final board makes the etching (sorry!)
process longer. So while one or some small points of oxidized copper take
longer to etch, your entire board is suffering  with more etching than
necessary. It leads you to broken tracks and void areas on fills.

    The best way is to have the etching tank besides the water supply. Took
all the paper from the board? Dip it imediattely into the acid and let the
etching begin! As fast as it can be, with bubble agitation and heating of
the substance :o)

    "A fast etching does a good board"

    Greetz!


---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 25/10/04

By 'corroding' you really mean 'etching' right? I didn't know that 
oxidized copper makes a difference in etching process. Is that what 
others observed? It may take a bit longer but does it really cause 
etching problems? Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Alexandre Souza" <alexandre-
listas@e...> wrote:
> > It sounds like the stuff glossy magazines are printed on. It might
> actually
> > be similar to the paper Microchip et al use for their flyers - 
glossy,
> about
> > 100gsm, like thin card.
> > The stuff magazines are printed on tends to be much thinner - 
probably
> around
> > 70gsm.
> 
>     Exactly that. I use 150gsm paper, and let the board soak in 
water. I
> brush my fingers in the paper to take the "first layer" of paper 
out, let
> some time more to soak the second layer, and brush it again with 
fingers to
> take all the paper out. After that, a good toothbrush with soap to 
clean
> everything, and the board is ready to be IMEDIATELY corroded - if 
you let it

> oxidize, it will be a nightmare to corrode.
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 25/10/04

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
...
> 
> You needn't staple's.
> Perhaps you can get Zweckform/Avery paper.
> Many brands of matt inkjet photo paper will work just as well,
> you only need the coating to prevent the good bond with the long, 
open  
> fiber structure
> of normal paper.
> Don't go through too much trouble finding staples paper or GBC 
laminators,  
> there are plenty
> of options.
> 
> ST

ST is right.  inkjet paper works great.  The good news is you can use 
almost any paper out there as long as it is coated.  The only 
uncoated printer papers that I am aware of are called Laser Printer, 
Copier or General Purpose which, as ST said, allows the toner to bind 
strongly to the fibers.   Anything that is specifically formulated 
for inkjets will work because it keeps the toner on the surface of 
the paper.  Anything that has a slick surface (photo paper, glossy 
paper, magazine paper, couche, ...) will also work.  When I'm out of 
transfer paper, I get what ever brand of inkjet paper that is on 
sale.  I never pay more than 4 USD for 500 sheets (8/10 of a cent per 
sheet) and get beautiful transfers.

Yes, the package I have is a 30 sheet one.
Dennis

grantfair2001 wrote:

>Dennis - thanks. The store I was in only had Picture Paper in 100
>sheet packages. Have you found it in 30 page packs?
>
>Grant
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, millerdl <millerdl@t...> wrote:
>  
>
>>I believe the Canadian equivalent of the paper Tom's site identified
>>    
>>
>has 
>  
>
>>the SKU of  #33133-CA.  The bar code is the same as the US version:  7 
>>18103 02238 5.  It's the "Picture Paper" rather than the premium photo 
>>paper. I've had excellent results with it and it's cheaper than the 
>>premium if I remember correctly.
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>>    
>>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In message <417F21B5.7060503@...>
          millerdl <millerdl@...> wrote:

> 
> I believe the Canadian equivalent of the paper Tom's site identified has 
> the SKU of  #33133-CA.  The bar code is the same as the US version:  7 
> 18103 02238 5.  It's the "Picture Paper" rather than the premium photo 
> paper. I've had excellent results with it and it's cheaper than the 
> premium if I remember correctly.

I think I may have tracked the stuff down. It's listed as "Staples Glossy
Inkjet Paper A4, 130gsm, white", item number 361690. \ufffd5.29 for a 20-sheet
pack. Sounds like a variant of photo paper, maybe similar to HP Photo Paper
(not to be confused with HP Premium Photo Paper, which has a much higher
gloss finish). HP Photo Paper feels slightly "slick" and has a glossy
appearance, while Premium Photo Paper will stick to damp fingers and seems to
be a fair bit thicker.
They've also got "90gsm Premium Inkjet Paper", item 361689. \ufffd2.69 for a
200-sheet pack. I guess it's similar to HP Coated Inkjet Paper, i.e. matt
coating, totally hopeless for TT.

I guess you iron straight onto the back of the photo paper, rather than
having a sheet of copier paper between the TTP and the iron (as you do with
PnP)?

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem@...              | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... I'm sure it's in the manual somewhere

Dennis -

I will look at other stores for it. Thanks for your reply.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, millerdl <millerdl@t...> wrote:
> Yes, the package I have is a 30 sheet one.
> Dennis