Homebrew_PCBs

Apparently I cannot wield a clothes iron very well (my pattern
usually turns out like swiss cheese), so I'm going to start
constructing a laminator out of a Laserjet II fuser. The fuser was
given to me, but I did not receive the power supply or motor. So,
here are a few questions for those who have done the conversion, or
just know the answers :)

1) Does the fuser element take 110V AC (I'm in the US), or do I need
a DC power source? I have some SSRs that are good to 20A, and would
like to use one to control the temperature.
2) Since I'm starting to tinker with microcontrollers, I would like
to hook a PIC ADC port to the thermistor to create a crude
temperature indication on an LCD and provide feedback for the SSR
control. Are laser printer thermistors particularly "noisy" at any
give temperature?
3) Finally, I think I'll hook a hand crank onto the geartrain. Is an
*ultra* smooth feed required, or would I be able to crank it manually
with acceptable results?

Probably a bit much for a beginner, but I would like to give it a
shot anyway. Thanks for any help or pointers you can give.


Billy Byler

Billy, this is a classic question on the subject.

A laminator HC 200 from GBC, can be had for $90, lock stock and
barrell. It provides wonderfull results as evidenced on www.pulse.gs

http://www.pulsar.gs/1-tts/c_pcb/pcb_frames/frameset.html

They even provide information how to modify it for thicker boards
(out of the box it does 40 mils using a Gootee-suggested paper, which
I strongly reccomend). If one wants smaller than a page PCBs they
have a smaller model for less money.


This is all there is on the laminating subject. Tahnk
youwww.pulsar.gs. Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Billy Byler" <cougar@s...>
wrote:

> Apparently I cannot wield a clothes iron very well (my pattern
> usually turns out like swiss cheese), so I'm going to start
> constructing a laminator out of a Laserjet II fuser. The fuser was
> given to me, but I did not receive the power supply or motor. So,
> here are a few questions for those who have done the conversion, or
> just know the answers :)
>
> 1) Does the fuser element take 110V AC (I'm in the US), or do I

need

> a DC power source? I have some SSRs that are good to 20A, and

would

> like to use one to control the temperature.
> 2) Since I'm starting to tinker with microcontrollers, I would like
> to hook a PIC ADC port to the thermistor to create a crude
> temperature indication on an LCD and provide feedback for the SSR
> control. Are laser printer thermistors particularly "noisy" at any
> give temperature?
> 3) Finally, I think I'll hook a hand crank onto the geartrain. Is

an

> *ultra* smooth feed required, or would I be able to crank it

manually

> with acceptable results?
>
> Probably a bit much for a beginner, but I would like to give it a
> shot anyway. Thanks for any help or pointers you can give.
>
>
> Billy Byler

> 1) Does the fuser element take 110V AC (I'm in the US), or do I need
> a DC power source? I have some SSRs that are good to 20A, and would
> like to use one to control the temperature.

All i've seen use direct mains AC.
The SSR are probably ideal.

> 2) Since I'm starting to tinker with microcontrollers, I would like
> to hook a PIC ADC port to the thermistor to create a crude
> temperature indication on an LCD and provide feedback for the SSR
> control. Are laser printer thermistors particularly "noisy" at any
> give temperature?

No, not noisy. they are NTC thermistors usually. Of course you might have
small switching noise from the heater.
I do not like the idea of using a micro for a one-transistor problem, but
hey, i'm not your mother.

> 3) Finally, I think I'll hook a hand crank onto the geartrain. Is an
> *ultra* smooth feed required, or would I be able to crank it manually
> with acceptable results?

I cranked for a couple of boards with no trouble. But then i mounted a
"chicken grill" motor (small AC motor with heavy gearing in smal case -
cheap).
the motor is ideal as i now need only one pass.

>
> Probably a bit much for a beginner, but I would like to give it a
> shot anyway. Thanks for any help or pointers you can give.

dump the microcontroller, the rest is just perfect.

ST

> This is all there is on the laminating subject. Tahnk
> youwww.pulsar.gs. Mike
>

This is probably the most wrong statement we ever had here.
Buying a $90 fuser isn't even scratching the surface of what is to be known
about laminating. This is a homebrew group and converting a laser fuser
is a highly valid and highly satisfying option. (and free too in many
cases).

ST

I have the same configuration with a HP 4L fuser and bipolar stepper motor.

I supply 220v to the fuser. We have 220v in my country. In the manual
service of the printer talk of two type of fuser for 110v and 220v.

For driver the fuser I used the same pieces of the board of the printer:
triac, optocoupler, coil, transistor and resistor. Stefan Trethan send to
my the circuit for driver the fuser and this use the same thermistor inside
the unit.

I buid a circuit for move the bipolar stepper motor with a PIC and a L298.

Greetings from Chile
(sorry by my english)

Esteban Arias
earias@...

At 12:15 p.m. 29-07-2004, you wrote:

>Apparently I cannot wield a clothes iron very well (my pattern
>usually turns out like swiss cheese), so I'm going to start
>constructing a laminator out of a Laserjet II fuser. The fuser was
>given to me, but I did not receive the power supply or motor. So,
>here are a few questions for those who have done the conversion, or
>just know the answers :)
>
>1) Does the fuser element take 110V AC (I'm in the US), or do I need
>a DC power source? I have some SSRs that are good to 20A, and would
>like to use one to control the temperature.
>2) Since I'm starting to tinker with microcontrollers, I would like
>to hook a PIC ADC port to the thermistor to create a crude
>temperature indication on an LCD and provide feedback for the SSR
>control. Are laser printer thermistors particularly "noisy" at any
>give temperature?
>3) Finally, I think I'll hook a hand crank onto the geartrain. Is an
>*ultra* smooth feed required, or would I be able to crank it manually
>with acceptable results?
>
>Probably a bit much for a beginner, but I would like to give it a
>shot anyway. Thanks for any help or pointers you can give.
>
>
>Billy Byler
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Thanks for the info, everyone! This is a learning/hobby project for
me that will hopefully result in a capable laminator. I considered
buying a laminator, but decided I might have more entertainment
building one.

I will use 110V on the fuser, ditch the microcontroller (at least for
now -- I may add one in later for temperature readout only :), and go
with a hand crank. I do have a stepper and driver with the L297/L298
combo, and will add it in after I get the manual version working.

Thanks again!

Billy Byler

PS - Esteban, there is no need to apologize for your English. It is
very understandable. It is MUCH better than my Spanish :)


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Esteban Arias <earias@v...>
wrote:

> I have the same configuration with a HP 4L fuser and bipolar

stepper motor.

>
> I supply 220v to the fuser. We have 220v in my country. In the

manual

> service of the printer talk of two type of fuser for 110v and 220v.
>
> For driver the fuser I used the same pieces of the board of the

printer:

> triac, optocoupler, coil, transistor and resistor. Stefan Trethan

send to

> my the circuit for driver the fuser and this use the same

thermistor inside

> the unit.
>
> I buid a circuit for move the bipolar stepper motor with a PIC and

a L298.

>
> Greetings from Chile
> (sorry by my english)
>
> Esteban Arias
> earias@v...

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:27:42 -0000, Billy Byler <cougar@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the info, everyone! This is a learning/hobby project for
> me that will hopefully result in a capable laminator. I considered
> buying a laminator, but decided I might have more entertainment
> building one.
>
> I will use 110V on the fuser, ditch the microcontroller (at least for
> now -- I may add one in later for temperature readout only :), and go
> with a hand crank. I do have a stepper and driver with the L297/L298
> combo, and will add it in after I get the manual version working.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Billy Byler
>
> PS - Esteban, there is no need to apologize for your English. It is
> very understandable. It is MUCH better than my Spanish :)

Good to hear i made you rethink that micro idea ;-).
Get some decent analog electronics in there!
(it is really simple, just a transistor as Esteban wrote.
The thermistor and a potentiometer bias it at the right temperature).

ST

PS - i have long given up on apologizing for _my_ English, there is no
point
in torturing you with it for a additional sentence ;-)

Why is it a wrong statement that HC200 and Gootee paper is not all
there is to TT? You don't have to make any changes to it if doing
0.040 PCBs. And small chenges for 0.060 IAW provided link
www.pulsar.gs


I agree with the rest of your post but it is unrelated to what I
wrote. Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>
> > This is all there is on the laminating subject. Tahnk
> > youwww.pulsar.gs. Mike
> >
>
> This is probably the most wrong statement we ever had here.
> Buying a $90 fuser isn't even scratching the surface of what is to

be known

> about laminating. This is a homebrew group and converting a laser

fuser

> is a highly valid and highly satisfying option. (and free too in

many

> cases).
>
> ST

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:50:19 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Why is it a wrong statement that HC200 and Gootee paper is not all
> there is to TT? You don't have to make any changes to it if doing
> 0.040 PCBs. And small chenges for 0.060 IAW provided link
> www.pulsar.gs
>
>
> I agree with the rest of your post but it is unrelated to what I
> wrote. Mike
>
>

Possibly a misunderstanding.
I interpreted it as "by the thing there is nothing else worth thinking
about".

ST

For the simple fact that many of us very successfully use other paper
and different methods of fusing toner to copper. Speaking just for
myself, I dont like to hear xxx is the only thing you need to know,
especially when I have a different technique that works quite well.

Many of us use a good quality ink jet paper with excellent results.
You cant beat the cost of $0.01 per sheet. It sure makes it easy to
experiment at a very low cost. Others use magazine paper to good
effect (though I dont like it because of "blooming"). Others use
glossy or photo paper. The reality is that there are a suprising
number of papers that work with somewhat different techniques.
Frankly, I think any paper sold for toner transfer is grossly over
priced.

There are several ways to fuse the toner to copper. Irons or
homebrew laser printer fusers are successfuly used. I've toyed with
the idea of baking two steel plates that sandwitch the paper/board
assembly in the oven.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Why is it a wrong statement that HC200 and Gootee paper is not all
> there is to TT? You don't have to make any changes to it if doing
> 0.040 PCBs. And small chenges for 0.060 IAW provided link
> www.pulsar.gs

No, of course not, I respect every hacker there is, but I value the
time a lot more these days and I wish I knew about that 'golden' mix
of HC200 laminator and 'Gootee paper' a year ago (I don't say other
papers don't work, I just tried it and it stuck to PCB like I've
never seen before and I tried quite a bit of them). In fact, it was
when Gootee mentioned the Staples paper, I made a mental connection
between info from www.pulsar.gs about the laminator HC 200 and the
Staples paper itself. What I saw was infinitely better than all kinds
of irons, iron presses and screenprinter's heat presses that I tried.
I am now very entusiastic about TT and the HC laminator and I want to
make sure that everybody hears about it so they have a choice between
having a TT PCB in one afternoon or possibly never. There are quite a
few research guys lurking around this board and I can see then just
running to the nearest Staples store. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:50:19 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > Why is it a wrong statement that HC200 and Gootee paper is not all
> > there is to TT? You don't have to make any changes to it if doing
> > 0.040 PCBs. And small chenges for 0.060 IAW provided link
> > www.pulsar.gs
> >
> >
> > I agree with the rest of your post but it is unrelated to what I
> > wrote. Mike
> >
> >
>
> Possibly a misunderstanding.
> I interpreted it as "by the thing there is nothing else worth

thinking

> about".
>
> ST

I wrote what I think about other kinds of papers before I read your
not, kind of sensing that someone might not like what I wrote.

Please notice, that I am not telling you what paper to use, I am
telling you and others what works for me after a year of experiments
trying to fuse paper to copper. Rememebr that it all depends on what
kind of detail one wants to achieve; I am talking about very fine SMD
detail. I tried all kinds of papers with all kinds of results and the
most success rate I had was 70% of image transfered and the rest was
falling off easily in water. I spent lots of time cleaning, washing
and activating the copper and all was fruitless. IMO ironing does not
work for me as it is too finicky and unpredictable. If it's working
for you, that's great. What works for sure and like a dream is the HC
200 laminator and paper mentioned by Gootee. Now I am getting
terrific results that are comparable to a photgtaphic method. Again,
I do not care what you are using or not, what conductor is better or
not. For me the most important thing is to know and tell the
interested people on this board, which combination works, works
repeatadly and all the time. To say that I am amazed with the results
of TT is not enough. Do other laminators work? I don't know and I am
not even interested in it. My HC 200 is small, next to my printer
looks great and does its work like a dream. Hopefully you understand
my point. If you are happy with your method and results, that is
awsome because I tested that method and for me it's like a rulette
and I can recognize a rulette when I see one.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> For the simple fact that many of us very successfully use other
paper
> and different methods of fusing toner to copper. Speaking just for
> myself, I dont like to hear xxx is the only thing you need to know,
> especially when I have a different technique that works quite well.
>
> Many of us use a good quality ink jet paper with excellent
results.
> You cant beat the cost of $0.01 per sheet. It sure makes it easy
to
> experiment at a very low cost. Others use magazine paper to good
> effect (though I dont like it because of "blooming"). Others use
> glossy or photo paper. The reality is that there are a suprising
> number of papers that work with somewhat different techniques.
> Frankly, I think any paper sold for toner transfer is grossly over
> priced.
>
> There are several ways to fuse the toner to copper. Irons or
> homebrew laser printer fusers are successfuly used. I've toyed
with
> the idea of baking two steel plates that sandwitch the paper/board
> assembly in the oven.
>
>



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> For the simple fact that many of us very successfully use other
paper
> and different methods of fusing toner to copper. Speaking just for
> myself, I dont like to hear xxx is the only thing you need to know,
> especially when I have a different technique that works quite well.
>
> Many of us use a good quality ink jet paper with excellent
results.
> You cant beat the cost of $0.01 per sheet. It sure makes it easy
to
> experiment at a very low cost. Others use magazine paper to good
> effect (though I dont like it because of "blooming"). Others use
> glossy or photo paper. The reality is that there are a suprising
> number of papers that work with somewhat different techniques.
> Frankly, I think any paper sold for toner transfer is grossly over
> priced.
>
> There are several ways to fuse the toner to copper. Irons or
> homebrew laser printer fusers are successfuly used. I've toyed
with
> the idea of baking two steel plates that sandwitch the paper/board
> assembly in the oven.
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>
wrote:
> > Why is it a wrong statement that HC200 and Gootee paper is not
all
> > there is to TT? You don't have to make any changes to it if doing
> > 0.040 PCBs. And small chenges for 0.060 IAW provided link
> > www.pulsar.gs

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:

> Why is it a wrong statement that HC200 and Gootee paper is not all
> there is to TT? You don't have to make any changes to it if doing
> 0.040 PCBs. And small chenges for 0.060 IAW provided link
> www.pulsar.gs

"all there is " would imply there is no room for improvement.

#1) not all people on this list live where they can buy these parts

#2) not all peple on this list can afford to buy these parts.

#3) there is little 'home brew' in a store bought unit.

#4) the HC200 does not handle 3 foot by 4 foot sheets of PBC so there
is a gap between the unit size and the maximum board size.

#5) each week, paper changes and each month, someone posts yet
another 'best paper' Some will hold that magazine paper is best due
to cost and availability.

But, I would grant that it is HIGHLY RECOMENDED as a one shot
solution.

just my 2 cents.

Dave

Dave,

My comments are below, mix in text. Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>

wrote:

> > Why is it a wrong statement that HC200 and Gootee paper is not

all

> > there is to TT? You don't have to make any changes to it if doing
> > 0.040 PCBs. And small chenges for 0.060 IAW provided link
> > www.pulsar.gs
>
>
> "all there is " would imply there is no room for improvement.

='all there means that if someone has job for tomorrow and his boss
has no money for a PCB house and the PCB house has a long lead time
and it happens to be a weekend and the job has to be done for monday
at 10:00am, then such a person may rund to Staples and buy HC200, for
$90, 30 sheets of paper by Gootee and be done with the PCB in an hour
because it was his first time. Otherwise he might be done with the
PCB in much less time.

>
> #1) not all people on this list live where they can buy these parts

=True, but there are many that rather pay for $90 for a laminator and
have boards done this evening. I am talking about the guys who work
in R&D at Langley, for example.

>
> #2) not all peple on this list can afford to buy these parts.

==that is a bummer. John Kleinbauer from www.kleinbauer.com once
said, and I paraphrase him with pleasure because he is a terrific guy-
that regretfully this (CNC) hobby does cost money. So does PCB
making. Time is money, and I would suggest taking a job for $5 an
hour and buy a laminator rather than do it and have an unpredictable
result- maybe, with hourly pay maybe 30 cents an hour, a year from
now. Just a thought.

>
> #3) there is little 'home brew' in a store bought unit.

==But there is, Dave. Remember, you still have to know how to use it.
The homebrew might mean 'homebrew laminator' or 'homebrew PCB'. I am
for 'homebrew PCB'.
Then you have to adjust it for thicker boards, instructions available
compliments of www.pulsar.gs, we cannot ask for more. I know that
www.pulsar.gs spent lots of time and money to develop that laminator
and conversion. He is a great guy by the way and we are just
benefiting from his enterprenurial skills. I like learning from
people- I di not come up with this combination, I just verified it
with my highly critical skills and lots of money. Maybe I should have
sold it on ebay?! hint hint.

>
> #4) the HC200 does not handle 3 foot by 4 foot sheets of PBC so

there

> is a gap between the unit size and the maximum board size.

==You are trying hard, Dave. I am looking at phenolic PCBs 8ea,
16"x20' and I am not sure if it was you or someone else who was
looking for them. I'll let you have them for $5 a piece+shipping, if
it was you. I don't recall anybody wanting to build a 3'x4' PCB using
TT. I also don't think that anyone might want to layout PCBs of that
size. And I don't think a Xerox conductor can do it either. I'll stop
here, because I think you meant something else. Also, that's why
people do cut their boards before laminating them.. However, one
thing is for sure, HC200 is for 8.5x11- they also have two other
sizes, they, meaning GBC.

>
> #5) each week, paper changes and each month, someone posts yet
> another 'best paper' Some will hold that magazine paper is best

due

> to cost and availability.

==You are very correct. I tried them, all, spent lots of money on all
kinds of secret papers. I even tried to make my own paper and I tried
to coat it with dextrine. With all the expertise that I have on paper
manufacturing, it didn't help. Then I tried the paper by Gootee, from
Staples. You don't think I am making this stuff up, Dave? Thank you.
Please try that paper once with HC200 and let us know. I tried and I
almost fainted when I saw the result. I showed it to my friend and he
was sceptical before seeing it. I mean he was sceptical. When he saw
it he almost fainted. We've been trying to corral that rabbit for
long time, following every lead on this board, all there is on
internet, everywhere. And the only time it worked is as described by
me. It's that simple. You want PCBs at home and you don't want to
spend time following the false leads on this board that here is the
answer: HC200 and paper by Gootee. Why do you think I am so adamant
about this combination? Because it cost me a lot of money to be so
adamant about it. Mostly due to false leads on this and other boards.
leads are just that- leads: use it at your own risk, your mileage may
vary. But not with the HC200 and Gootee paper. This is it for
homebrewing PCBs. If someone finds a better method, better
combination, please repay the debt to this board, like I am doing and
post the results. I will be glad to try it. Also, it is possible that
by the time one makes to the store the laminators will be gone, more
expensive or redesigned. Paper will be on sale but it will be a
different kind. I have a stash of paper put aside.

>
> But, I would grant that it is HIGHLY RECOMENDED as a one shot
> solution.

==I knew you would agree with me, at least that much. My take on it
is that if one wants to start making PCBs in few hours and be happy
with it, this is what they should do.

Few weeks ago there was an article in Nuts and Volts about making
PCBs. I read that article and the author was rather ill informed, all
copiec from internet. Deception, deception.

>

People, please try that method and then comment on it. When Gootee
first mentioned that paper few months ago, I said yeah, right. I
tried all he suggested before and I had 70% success (once only
approching 90%) ie it di not work like he suggested. Then I tried
that Gootee suggested paper with that HC200 (that was my idea to
combine the two), my, what a change. As I rememebr he was excited
about that paper on his website, too.
Thanks for commenting, Dave. Mike
:)

> just my 2 cents.
>
> Dave

Mike,
This is about as clear as mud (to me). Is the paper you are talking about the Staples ink jet paper? Some times I get that feeling, and some times I get the feeling that you are talking about some expensive, TT specific paper, like the TTS paper from Pulsar. Which are you talking about?
Thanks
Richard

>When Gootee
>first mentioned that paper few months ago, I said yeah, right. I
>tried all he suggested before and I had 70% success (once only
>approching 90%) ie it di not work like he suggested. Then I tried
>that Gootee suggested paper with that HC200 (that was my idea to
>combine the two), my, what a change. As I rememebr he was excited
>about that paper on his website, too.
>Thanks for commenting, Dave. Mike
>:)
>
>
>

Richard,

Your observation is correct, we talk about everything and we use
mental abbreviation whih may have confused people.

The successful mix is:

1. Laminator made by GBC, model HC200 sold by Staples
2. Paper, Staples brand, no. 18103 02238, 30 sheets for $10. The
paper is for inkjet printers but you willbe using it in a laser
printer.

or

3. Paper, Staples brand, no 18103 02241, 100 sheets, $24.

4. Laser printer. I have used a cheap Lexmark Optra.

5. Follow the instructions on www.pulsar.gs Yes, he sells special
transfer paper but it costs $1.50 a sheet (actually he doesn't sell
anymore but DigiKey does for him). The Staples paper was sugegsted by
Gootee several weeks ago and I decided to try it with the laminator
sugegsted on www.pulsar.gs with the results beyond my imagination and
expectation for TT method (do I sound like salesman, or what?!)

6. The paper and board (remember it can only feed 0.040 PCBs and any
thicker requires modification of the laminator IAW instructions
provided on www.pular.gs

7. You need to preheat the PCB in a laminator and then run it few
times thru a laminator. Also, make sure that the lamiantor is already
hot. Read instructioons on www.pulsar.com how to do it exactly: the
man spent a lot of time to develop that technique.

8. Soaking. I initially soaked in cold water which was a mistake and
it took a long time but guys on this board suggested using hot water
for soaking. One think for sure, the laminated image is like enamel
ona kitchen pot...

Good luck and let us hear the results should you elect to make PCBs
using this setup. ALl credit goes to Gootee for selecting the right
paper and to www.pulsar.gs for the laminator setup- I jsut had a
hunch to try the two together.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard Mustakos
<rmustakos@a...> wrote:

>
>
> Mike,
> This is about as clear as mud (to me). Is the paper you are

talking about the Staples ink jet paper? Some times I get that
feeling, and some times I get the feeling that you are talking about
some expensive, TT specific paper, like the TTS paper from Pulsar.
Which are you talking about?

> Thanks
> Richard
>
> >When Gootee
> >first mentioned that paper few months ago, I said yeah, right. I
> >tried all he suggested before and I had 70% success (once only
> >approching 90%) ie it di not work like he suggested. Then I tried
> >that Gootee suggested paper with that HC200 (that was my idea to
> >combine the two), my, what a change. As I rememebr he was excited
> >about that paper on his website, too.
> >Thanks for commenting, Dave. Mike
> >:)
> >
> >
> >

Hi mikezcnc,

> Billy, this is a classic question on the subject.
>
> A laminator HC 200 from GBC, can be had for $90, lock stock and
> barrell. It provides wonderfull results as evidenced on www.pulse.gs

Is there a UK equivalent to this or the smaller model? The HC's seems to be
for US mains only.

The real question must be what temperature does the HC range run at?

--
Cheers,

Derryck

I love you, man! I wish I new what the true answer to your question
is. I don't know. I don't know what temperature is at the cylinder
('conductor'), but I can tell you few hints. To my greatest surprise,
the (not to say 'that') laminator was running 'hot', much hotter that
I thought laminators needs to be. And more, after few runs with the
board (couple times- I ran it 5 times) thru the laminator the board
could not be held in hand directly. When I used ironing, I tried all
kinds of combinations, high temp, preheating in hte oven and
pressure. I should have said in my posts that while it worked on
small boards, I could not a make a pCB, say, 4"x6" that way. That's
why I kept looking. If one wants to make 1"x1" or 2"x2" or maybe even
3"x3" they might be able to use a regular hot iron. It's the
unpredictability of the standard process that lead me to HC200
laminator.

Go to GBC website and check with them, I think there is something
similar on your side of the lake, but you will have to take a risk of
testing. It can be that ANY laminator (well, almost any) might work
and for some reason that wasn't told loud enough, that's why I am
trying to bring that point accross: HC 200 laminator does wonderful
job of 'near-photoimaging' from a laser printer printing onto an
inkjet printer....

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...>
wrote:

> Hi mikezcnc,
>
> > Billy, this is a classic question on the subject.
> >
> > A laminator HC 200 from GBC, can be had for $90, lock stock and
> > barrell. It provides wonderfull results as evidenced on

www.pulse.gs

>
> Is there a UK equivalent to this or the smaller model? The HC's

seems to be

> for US mains only.
>
> The real question must be what temperature does the HC range run at?
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Derryck

> When I used ironing, I tried all
> kinds of combinations, high temp, preheating in hte oven and
> pressure. I should have said in my posts that while it worked on
> small boards, I could not a make a pCB, say, 4"x6" that way. That's
> why I kept looking. If one wants to make 1"x1" or 2"x2" or maybe even
> 3"x3" they might be able to use a regular hot iron. It's the
> unpredictability of the standard process that lead me to HC200
> laminator.

I agree with you (for once ;-) ).
Using the iron is very hard to reproduce, 'specially with bigger boards.
This is much easier with a laminator as speed, pressure (though it is lower
on a big board) is constant.

I'd say it is a good idea to provide the HC 200 laminator as a "no hassle"
solution. But there are some people who actually have time and no money
and like to convert a fuser.
I hope entered the HC 200 in the groups database section soon because
this is the place where one should go to learn about working combinations.

ST

Agreed, Stefan. I never said that people should not convert xerox
conductors. I enjoy that subject and reading about it that people do
dare things and come out successfel, like yourself. That impresses
me, but I would not do that myself anymore. I might have hinted that
if people value their time a lot then the economical way is HC200.
Enough beating that already dead horse.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> > When I used ironing, I tried all
> > kinds of combinations, high temp, preheating in hte oven and
> > pressure. I should have said in my posts that while it worked on
> > small boards, I could not a make a pCB, say, 4"x6" that way.

That's

> > why I kept looking. If one wants to make 1"x1" or 2"x2" or maybe

even

> > 3"x3" they might be able to use a regular hot iron. It's the
> > unpredictability of the standard process that lead me to HC200
> > laminator.
>
> I agree with you (for once ;-) ).
> Using the iron is very hard to reproduce, 'specially with bigger

boards.

> This is much easier with a laminator as speed, pressure (though it

is lower

> on a big board) is constant.
>
> I'd say it is a good idea to provide the HC 200 laminator as a "no

hassle"

> solution. But there are some people who actually have time and no

money

> and like to convert a fuser.
> I hope entered the HC 200 in the groups database section soon

because

> this is the place where one should go to learn about working

combinations.

>
> ST

Hi Mike,

> I love you, man! I wish I new what the true answer to your question

The usual answer is "42" :-)

> is. I don't know. I don't know what temperature is at the cylinder
> ('conductor'), but I can tell you few hints. To my greatest surprise,
> the (not to say 'that') laminator was running 'hot', much hotter that
> I thought laminators needs to be. And more, after few runs with the

That's a clue there then, the one I have is quite "cool" and the manual
states that it's 120C. I think 140C is what's needed, at least for
press'n'peel paper.

> board (couple times- I ran it 5 times) thru the laminator the board
> could not be held in hand directly. When I used ironing, I tried all

I've had excellent results by tacking the p'n'p paper to the copper by
running it through the laminator then putting it face-up on a newspaper,
kitchen paper on top and then resting an iron (set to Linen) on top for a
minute. Then back through the laminator but corners first otherwise it
doesn't get an even press.

> unpredictability of the standard process that lead me to HC200
> laminator.

Sure, makes it a quick and easy process.

> Go to GBC website and check with them, I think there is something
> similar on your side of the lake, but you will have to take a risk of

I didn't find any of the fine detail that I needed :-(

> testing. It can be that ANY laminator (well, almost any) might work

One of their laminators is listed in the Yahoo database, but there's no
detail on how to modify the drive mech to accept the thicker than pouch
thickness PCB material.

--
Cheers,

Derryck

I kind of suspected that, Derryck, and that's why I voiced my info to
everybody wanting to listen and having a need for it.

If you want to develop your own setup for your own lminator then you
are up the creek with ht ealligators, that's for sure. If funds
permitting, or a suitable second joib is possible, tehn you ight want
to consider getting it dirrectly from Staples or ask GBC (sounds
british to me anyway...) if they sell that model to GB. At any rate,
that is a proven setup that I listed. The second option is to pump
Stefan and others for information on how to modify conductor. Since
you mentioned your laminator running cold, I will repeat that HC200
runs really hot! Good luck, Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...>
wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> > I love you, man! I wish I new what the true answer to your

question

>
> The usual answer is "42" :-)
>
> > is. I don't know. I don't know what temperature is at the cylinder
> > ('conductor'), but I can tell you few hints. To my greatest

surprise,

> > the (not to say 'that') laminator was running 'hot', much hotter

that

> > I thought laminators needs to be. And more, after few runs with

the

>
> That's a clue there then, the one I have is quite "cool" and the

manual

> states that it's 120C. I think 140C is what's needed, at least for
> press'n'peel paper.
>
> > board (couple times- I ran it 5 times) thru the laminator the

board

> > could not be held in hand directly. When I used ironing, I tried

all

>
> I've had excellent results by tacking the p'n'p paper to the copper

by

> running it through the laminator then putting it face-up on a

newspaper,

> kitchen paper on top and then resting an iron (set to Linen) on top

for a

> minute. Then back through the laminator but corners first otherwise

it

> doesn't get an even press.
>
> > unpredictability of the standard process that lead me to HC200
> > laminator.
>
> Sure, makes it a quick and easy process.
>
> > Go to GBC website and check with them, I think there is something
> > similar on your side of the lake, but you will have to take a

risk of

>
> I didn't find any of the fine detail that I needed :-(
>
> > testing. It can be that ANY laminator (well, almost any) might

work

>
> One of their laminators is listed in the Yahoo database, but

there's no

> detail on how to modify the drive mech to accept the thicker than

pouch

> thickness PCB material.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Derryck

Derryck,

It actually is a model H200 not like may have mentioned HC200..

http://www.hhc.co.uk/pages/news/type/editorial/id/660 you may contacy
him and ask for details.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006IASD/002-4830036-
4235265?v=glance or here

http://hallsmallbusiness.com/store/electronics_B00006IASD_GBCR-
HeatSeal-H200-Pro-Photo-Quality-Laminator-Silver-Black.html or here


Hopefully it helps, Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@n...>
wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> > I love you, man! I wish I new what the true answer to your

question

>
> The usual answer is "42" :-)
>
> > is. I don't know. I don't know what temperature is at the cylinder
> > ('conductor'), but I can tell you few hints. To my greatest

surprise,

> > the (not to say 'that') laminator was running 'hot', much hotter

that

> > I thought laminators needs to be. And more, after few runs with

the

>
> That's a clue there then, the one I have is quite "cool" and the

manual

> states that it's 120C. I think 140C is what's needed, at least for
> press'n'peel paper.
>
> > board (couple times- I ran it 5 times) thru the laminator the

board

> > could not be held in hand directly. When I used ironing, I tried

all

>
> I've had excellent results by tacking the p'n'p paper to the copper

by

> running it through the laminator then putting it face-up on a

newspaper,

> kitchen paper on top and then resting an iron (set to Linen) on top

for a

> minute. Then back through the laminator but corners first otherwise

it

> doesn't get an even press.
>
> > unpredictability of the standard process that lead me to HC200
> > laminator.
>
> Sure, makes it a quick and easy process.
>
> > Go to GBC website and check with them, I think there is something
> > similar on your side of the lake, but you will have to take a

risk of

>
> I didn't find any of the fine detail that I needed :-(
>
> > testing. It can be that ANY laminator (well, almost any) might

work

>
> One of their laminators is listed in the Yahoo database, but

there's no

> detail on how to modify the drive mech to accept the thicker than

pouch

> thickness PCB material.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Derryck

>> That's a clue there then, the one I have is quite "cool" and the
> manual
>> states that it's 120C. I think 140C is what's needed, at least for
>> press'n'peel paper.
>>

we usually run the fusers at 160C to 180C - that seems to work well.
The fusers are actually MADE to melt toner (and not to laminate special
plastic) and they run in this range in normal operation.

ST

Hi Mike,

> It actually is a model H200 not like may have mentioned HC200..

And thanks for the links as well.
--
Cheers,

Derryck