Homebrew PCBs

Hello,

Haven't been around here much lately...

Because I've been getting the machines I mentioned ready for market.

Expect pictures next week, and will begin offering for sale in August.

These are really working out nicely! They have microstepping chopper 
drives, 60+IPM rapids, anti-backlash nuts, steel construction--VERY 
sturdy! All motor and tool cables run in trays, NO "dangling wires" 
so typical of small DIY machines...

Desktop size, figure a 16" cube. (Will probably be offering an 
enclosure of this size in the not-too-distant future. Will help keep 
the noise down during those midnight prototyping sessions<G>, and 
copper and epoxy dust under control.)

HPGL, DXF, BMP, Gcode input supported now. Excellon input shortly--
probably by next month. Drill PCB's, engrave front panels, carve 
foam, wood, plastic. Make electronics enclosures. Make robot parts<G>
  
Fully 4 axis capable. Pick and place part orientation or dispensing, 
or vinyl cutting--WITH tangential knife!) Rotary turning attachment, 
etc. Vacuum bed capable, lots of add-ons and extras in the works...  
(Note that up to 6 axes are support-able, so in the future there will 
be upgrades for even more possibilities!)

Gantry style, 12-3/4" between uprights, Travels are: 10"+ in Y, 8-
1/2"+ in X, and 2-1/2"+ in Z  (so you can work on a piece of material 
infinite length, up to 12-5/8 inches wide, and up to 2-1/2 inches 
thick...

For PCB use, I'm expecting that you'll use a sub-table of 3/4 and 
have up to 1-3/4" thick workpieces still possible. There are 25, 10-
32 attachment/hold-down points on the machine base/table. The machine 
travel can reach 20 of them, so you can drill your own sub-tables, 
fixtures, etc. (Fixtures/ tables using the other five only require 
reversing the work to make the second cuts; side fences make this 
easy and repeatable...)

I'm VERY excited about how this is all working out, and would like to 
again hear from anyone who is truly interested in purchasing one of 
these next month...

The MSRP "list" price is going to be $995, BUT for you guys, I'm 
staying true to my original offering and will make them available to 
you for 500 bucks. If you've already emailed me, then you haven't 
been forgotten, but I would like an update of your interest as it has 
been a bit longer than expected...

Thank you for your patience, and the initial interest which is making 
this become a reality!

Be sure to email me if you're <still> interested. The 500 buck price 
is an initial offering for this group.

Ballendo

P.S. Current computer interface is Parallel port using WinXP or 
Win2k, but USB will "Bee" supported by my USBeehives in a month or 
two, at an added cost of about 200 dollars.

I am still in... You can keep me in the list...

    My pick and place "thing" is halfway done but I am interested in
something that can engrave and make holes :-)

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

> Thank you for your patience, and the initial interest which is making
> this become a reality!
>
> Be sure to email me if you're <still> interested. The 500 buck price
> is an initial offering for this group.

Ballendo,
	Wow. Sounds so sweet. I'm still totally on board - I have the $500
ready and waiting. I'd love to see pictures and some examples of work you've
done on the machine. (i.e. test runs)

*Brian

-----Original Message-----
From: ballendo [mailto:ballendo@...] 
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 4:27 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] 500 buck CNC pcb mill/drills update


Hello,

Haven't been around here much lately...

Because I've been getting the machines I mentioned ready for market.
[snip]

Ballendo

P.S. Current computer interface is Parallel port using WinXP or 
Win2k, but USB will "Bee" supported by my USBeehives in a month or 
two, at an added cost of about 200 dollars.

Hi, Ballendo:

I am also interested. Please let me know when your
machine is available.

Thank you.

Jose Kovacevich.


     
>    Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:38:09 -0300
>    From: "Alexandre Guimaraes"
> <listas@...>
> Subject: Re: 500 buck CNC pcb mill/drills update
> 
>     I am still in... You can keep me in the list...
> 
>     My pick and place "thing" is halfway done but I
> am interested in
> something that can engrave and make holes :-)
> 
> Best regards,
> Alexandre Guimaraes
> 
> > Thank you for your patience, and the initial
> interest which is making
> > this become a reality!
> >
> > Be sure to email me if you're <still> interested.
> The 500 buck price
> > is an initial offering for this group.
> 
=== message truncated ===



	
		
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Count me in.

I thing the $500.00 makes it a little high for just drilling PCB 
holes, but with the ability to engrave faceplates and such, it is 
really worth it.

Dave




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Haven't been around here much lately...
> 
> Because I've been getting the machines I mentioned ready for market.
> 
> Expect pictures next week, and will begin offering for sale in 
August.
> 
> These are really working out nicely! They have microstepping 
chopper 
> drives, 60+IPM rapids, anti-backlash nuts, steel construction--VERY 
> sturdy! All motor and tool cables run in trays, NO "dangling wires" 
> so typical of small DIY machines...
> 
> Desktop size, figure a 16" cube. (Will probably be offering an 
> enclosure of this size in the not-too-distant future. Will help 
keep 
> the noise down during those midnight prototyping sessions<G>, and 
> copper and epoxy dust under control.)
> 
> HPGL, DXF, BMP, Gcode input supported now. Excellon input shortly--
> probably by next month. Drill PCB's, engrave front panels, carve 
> foam, wood, plastic. Make electronics enclosures. Make robot 
parts<G>
>   
> Fully 4 axis capable. Pick and place part orientation or 
dispensing, 
> or vinyl cutting--WITH tangential knife!) Rotary turning 
attachment, 
> etc. Vacuum bed capable, lots of add-ons and extras in the 
works...  
> (Note that up to 6 axes are support-able, so in the future there 
will 
> be upgrades for even more possibilities!)
> 
> Gantry style, 12-3/4" between uprights, Travels are: 10"+ in Y, 8-
> 1/2"+ in X, and 2-1/2"+ in Z  (so you can work on a piece of 
material 
> infinite length, up to 12-5/8 inches wide, and up to 2-1/2 inches 
> thick...
> 
> For PCB use, I'm expecting that you'll use a sub-table of 3/4 and 
> have up to 1-3/4" thick workpieces still possible. There are 25, 10-
> 32 attachment/hold-down points on the machine base/table. The 
machine 
> travel can reach 20 of them, so you can drill your own sub-tables, 
> fixtures, etc. (Fixtures/ tables using the other five only require 
> reversing the work to make the second cuts; side fences make this 
> easy and repeatable...)
> 
> I'm VERY excited about how this is all working out, and would like 
to 
> again hear from anyone who is truly interested in purchasing one of 
> these next month...
> 
> The MSRP "list" price is going to be $995, BUT for you guys, I'm 
> staying true to my original offering and will make them available 
to 
> you for 500 bucks. If you've already emailed me, then you haven't 
> been forgotten, but I would like an update of your interest as it 
has 
> been a bit longer than expected...
> 
> Thank you for your patience, and the initial interest which is 
making 
> this become a reality!
> 
> Be sure to email me if you're <still> interested. The 500 buck 
price 

> is an initial offering for this group.
> 
> Ballendo
> 
> P.S. Current computer interface is Parallel port using WinXP or 
> Win2k, but USB will "Bee" supported by my USBeehives in a month or 
> two, at an added cost of about 200 dollars.

Hi This sounds like a realy good machine let me know when you are ready to ship thanks 
 
Eric.

ballendo <ballendo@...> wrote:
Hello,

Haven't been around here much lately...

Because I've been getting the machines I mentioned ready for market.

Expect pictures next week, and will begin offering for sale in August.


<reminder from the moderator- please trim replies!>

Stefan is -not- the moderator, but it is true that info such as phone
and address should be exchanged off list.

Of course, Stefan then reposted that very information... :'P

Steve, listowner

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> PLEEEAAASSSEEE off list.
> 
> thanks a lot.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:02:25 -0400, Patrick Debrow <pdebrow@c...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Count me in too.  You should already have my name, but it won't
hurt to

> > remind you.
> >
> >
> >
> > Patrick Debrow
> >
> > Voice: 540****79
> >
> > FAX: 540****071

who is the owner of this list and who are the moderators? Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
> Stefan is -not- the moderator, but it is true that info such as 
phone

> and address should be exchanged off list.
> 
> Of course, Stefan then reposted that very information... :'P
> 
> Steve, listowner
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > PLEEEAAASSSEEE off list.
> > 
> > thanks a lot.
> > 
> > ST
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:02:25 -0400, Patrick Debrow <pdebrow@c...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Count me in too.  You should already have my name, but it won't
> hurt to
> > > remind you.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Patrick Debrow
> > >
> > > Voice: 540****79
> > >
> > > FAX: 540****071

Steve is the owner ( the guy you just replied to), and I believe he is the only regularly active mod.
JT

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mikezcnc 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 8:54 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: 500 buck CNC pcb mill/drills update


  who is the owner of this list and who are the moderators? Mike

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
  wrote:
  > Stefan is -not- the moderator, but it is true that info such as 
  phone
  > and address should be exchanged off list.
  > 
  > Of course, Stefan then reposted that very information... :'P
  > 
  > Steve, listowner
  > 
  > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
  > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
  > > PLEEEAAASSSEEE off list.
  > > 
  > > thanks a lot.
  > > 
  > > ST
  > > 
  > > 
  > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:02:25 -0400, Patrick Debrow <pdebrow@c...> 
  > > wrote:
  > > 
  > > > Count me in too.  You should already have my name, but it won't
  > hurt to
  > > > remind you.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Patrick Debrow
  > > >
  > > > Voice: 540****79
  > > >
  > > > FAX: 540****071



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, I thought so.  Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Taylor" <jeremy@e...> 
wrote:
> Steve is the owner ( the guy you just replied to), and I believe he 
is the only regularly active mod.
> JT
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: mikezcnc 
>   To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 8:54 AM
>   Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: 500 buck CNC pcb mill/drills update
> 
> 
>   who is the owner of this list and who are the moderators? Mike
> 
>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
>   wrote:
>   > Stefan is -not- the moderator, but it is true that info such as 
>   phone
>   > and address should be exchanged off list.
>   > 
>   > Of course, Stefan then reposted that very information... :'P
>   > 
>   > Steve, listowner
>   > 
>   > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
>   > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>   > > PLEEEAAASSSEEE off list.
>   > > 
>   > > thanks a lot.
>   > > 
>   > > ST
>   > > 
>   > > 
>   > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:02:25 -0400, Patrick Debrow 
<pdebrow@c...> 
>   > > wrote:
>   > > 
>   > > > Count me in too.  You should already have my name, but it 
won't
>   > hurt to
>   > > > remind you.
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > Patrick Debrow
>   > > >
>   > > > Voice: 540****79
>   > > >
>   > > > FAX: 540****071
> 
> 
> 
>   Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and 
files:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
>       
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:54:17 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> who is the owner of this list and who are the moderators? Mike
>

Steve, both.

I just thought we had an agreement concerning selling stuff, which is
that the details are discussed off list.
I'd like to follow the mill discussion, but i'm not very interested in the 
fifth
"i want one" reply with no other useful information.
However, i wasn't trying to offend anyone, if someone preceived it that 
way i'm sorry.

Please, keep us informed about the progress with that mill, and also about 
performance,
and problems. It is totally on topic and very interesting, after all most 
here have
surely thought about buying/building such a mill. There is nothing wrong 
with offering
items for sale, but at some point the communication should go off list, 
because
the rest of the list has no need to know.

ST

> I just thought we had an agreement concerning selling stuff, which 
is
> that the details are discussed off list.
> I'd like to follow the mill discussion, but i'm not very interested 
in the 
> fifth
> "i want one" reply with no other useful information.
> However, i wasn't trying to offend anyone, if someone preceived it 
that 
> way i'm sorry.
> 
> Please, keep us informed about the progress with that mill, and 
also about 
> performance,
> and problems. It is totally on topic and very interesting, after 
all most 
> here have
> surely thought about buying/building such a mill. There is nothing 
wrong 
> with offering
> items for sale, but at some point the communication should go off 
list, 
> because
> the rest of the list has no need to know.
> 
> ST

I agree.  

I would request Ballendo make a web page or yahoo list for the new 
product and then allow us to respond there.

it would not need to be formal as the offer is in-formal : )

But, some of us have e-mailed ballendo and not gotten responses.  I 
offered to trade him my T-Tech and a grand for his new machine. but 
thank goodness he didn't respond, It sold for well over 3 grand !


Dave

Hi Dave and Stefan,

I beg to disagree a bit on the subject. I feel that Ballendo is 
not 'just another seller'. He is one of us, meaning that he is really 
one of us. If it were my board I would issue a waver for that machine 
and any other product that is truly benefiting this hobby. I'll give 
you examples who I think would qualify for such a waver, should they 
need one:

Ballendo, because of what he does for the PCB Midnight Engineering 
community

TurboCNC because it is a work of love and it does all it's supposed 
to do and then some and has a very symbolic price. Has its own 
website and yahoo group

www.kleinbauer.com for what he did and does to this hobby (CNC, PCB 
and all that. In fact John has a very interesting policy: he allows 
his customers to talk about any subject and we all have lot's of fun, 
too!) Has his own website

www.hobbycnc.com for building this hobby from the ground up AND 
recently offering a unipolar chopper Has his own website and own 
yahoo group.

www.xylotex.com his bipolar controller is a really nice piece of work.

www.gecko.com becasue it is Mariss and because it is Gecko drives. 
Has both a website and yahoo group.

Those are the products I truly believe are made for us by one of us 
but Ballendo's product is brand new, getting ready as we speak. The 
man probably has no time to sleep right now, not to mention that his 
priorities do not include organizing a web site right now.... A 
friendly understaning would help him a lot, specially right now. 

That is my personal opinion. Respectfully, Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> > I just thought we had an agreement concerning selling stuff, 
which 
> is
> > that the details are discussed off list.
> > I'd like to follow the mill discussion, but i'm not very 
interested 
> in the 
> > fifth
> > "i want one" reply with no other useful information.
> > However, i wasn't trying to offend anyone, if someone preceived 
it 
> that 
> > way i'm sorry.
> > 
> > Please, keep us informed about the progress with that mill, and 
> also about 
> > performance,
> > and problems. It is totally on topic and very interesting, after 
> all most 
> > here have
> > surely thought about buying/building such a mill. There is 
nothing 

> wrong 
> > with offering
> > items for sale, but at some point the communication should go off 
> list, 
> > because
> > the rest of the list has no need to know.
> > 
> > ST
> 
> I agree.  
> 
> I would request Ballendo make a web page or yahoo list for the new 
> product and then allow us to respond there.
> 
> it would not need to be formal as the offer is in-formal : )
> 
> But, some of us have e-mailed ballendo and not gotten responses.  I 
> offered to trade him my T-Tech and a grand for his new machine. but 
> thank goodness he didn't respond, It sold for well over 3 grand !
> 
> 
> Dave

I do not think it would be any problem whatsoever if ballendo
gets the "i want a machine for sure" in his private email and not on the 
group.
As said before i would like to have all other techincal discussion on list,
so that more members can decide they want a machine and we might learn
something even if we don't buy this one.
But my initial complaint (which is send the "i want one" directly to him 
and
not on list) still stands.
I don't understand what the problem is to copy his adress instead of the 
list
adress, but i know for sure this discussion now is ridiculous and did cost
me way more time than just ignoring the commercial mails.

In the end it is very simple, unless steve says stop it you can send 
whatever
you want. I just tried to encourage thinking about what is relevant to the 
list
and what not. It is not my task to decide that.


Well, good luck.
I hope we soon hear about how the first delivered machines perform.

ST

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:45:03 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Hi Dave and Stefan,
>
> I beg to disagree a bit on the subject. I feel that Ballendo is
> not 'just another seller'. He is one of us, meaning that he is really
> one of us. If it were my board I would issue a waver for that machine
> and any other product that is truly benefiting this hobby. I'll give
> you examples who I think would qualify for such a waver, should they
> need one:
>


> That is my personal opinion. Respectfully, Mike

Hello, all.

 

I am afraid that a momentary lapse on my part caused a bit of a furor, and
for that I apologize.  I punched the "Reply" button instead of the "New
Mail" button, and I did not remove the ID info automatically added to all of
my new outgoing emails (but not to the "Reply" emails).  I was just in a
hurry, and blew it.

 


PDebrow




 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Hi Dave and Stefan,
> 
> I beg to disagree a bit on the subject. I feel that Ballendo is 
> not 'just another seller'. He is one of us, meaning that he is 
really 
> one of us. If it were my board I would issue a waver for that 
machine 
> and any other product that is truly benefiting this hobby. 


Here is where I disagree.

THIS hobby is MAKING PCB's, and NOT making machines that make PCB's.

TurboCNC, Xylotex, Gecko's  ??? I would venture to say that 95% of 
the people on this list don't have a clue to any of those three 
products and will never need to.

They are squarely in MACHINE BUILDING and have nothing to do with 
making PCB's.

There are multiple machin building and design lists and although it 
is an interesting topic for many of us, does not make it a mainstream 
topic for this list.

John's and Ballendo's machines are dead center for making PCB's and I 
am sure are more than welcome here.  People selling supplies would be 
just as welcome.  I think there is a guy who sells sensitized boards, 
but he rarely posts about them on here. (if he is lurking, send me an 
e-mail off list)

Any talk about the tools that make boards are dead center for this 
list, but talk about the parts that make the parts that are part of 
the thing that makes boards is a little far removed.  And to that 
end, My point is that on a machnine tool list, you will have 
mechanical engineers with years of experiance in building machines 
and who may never have made a PCB.  and on this list I think we have 
Electrical engineers who have years of experiance designing and 
making PCB's, but have never made a machine to make a pcb.

I think allowance is made to post the totally commercial venture as 
it does pertain to the list and he is a member and all that.

I do agree with Stefan that most of us should have sent a privite 
post to Ballendo and not one to the list.  Making transactions for 
sales in not proper for the list.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Taylor" <jeremy@e...> wrote:
> Steve is the owner ( the guy you just replied to), and I believe he
is the only regularly active mod.
> JT

Correct. I'm also the only moderator.

I would rather not see two dozen "I want one!" posts, but I won't get
an ulcer about it. I don't think it's wise to post phone numbers or
addresses on the list.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Debrow" <pdebrow@c...>
wrote:
> Hello, all.
> 
> I am afraid that a momentary lapse on my part caused a bit of a
furor, and
> for that I apologize.  I punched the "Reply" button instead of the "New
> Mail" button, and I did not remove the ID info automatically added
to all of
> my new outgoing emails (but not to the "Reply" emails).  I was just in a
> hurry, and blew it.

We'll survive. ;')

Steve, listowner and only moderator

And let me just say: I want one! But I can't afford it.

Steve, crying quietly

Dave,

I read literally thousands of emails each week. Obvioously a few will 
sip throught hecracks. But your t-tech didn't. I Wasn't ready with my 
machines yet, and I KNEW you'd do better on ebay...

Now, as to the website...

There WILL Be a website, but...

You sure know how to look a gift horse in the mouth<G>

I'm offering these first machines HERE ONLY, and DO NOT want 
wider "publicity" at the moment. I'm giving something (money in 
discount) to get something (experienced and demanding initial 
customers).

Why here? You guys are ALL technical, and technically capable. Also, 
GOOD quality pcb milling drilling is one of the harder tests for a 
machine of this type. Any old machine can drill some holes, mill 
some "power supply" grade traces. And any ol' machine can do a 
reasonable job of engraving, etc. BUT some of the uses I have in mind 
for these machines are more demanding than what you can do with "any 
ol' DIY cnc machine. 

ALSO, in exchange for the lower price, I'm going to "take advantage" 
of your collective expertise, and let YOU make up your own cable 
assemblies/electronics using parts provided. This will save me time 
as my cable mfr/ electronic assembler ramps up for the main 
production, and you all save money, gettting machihnes at about half 
price. It also means I can assume that detailed descriptions of 
crimping connectors and soldering are unnecessary<G>  

Ballendo

P.S. I find it interesting that one email onlist-- which was a 
mistake, I believe-- has generated this much commentary... I never 
asked anyone to reply ONlist. (Believe me, I've had quite a few 
OFFList replies...) For which I thank you all!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> > I just thought we had an agreement concerning selling stuff, 
which 
> is
> > that the details are discussed off list.
> > I'd like to follow the mill discussion, but i'm not very 
interested 
> in the 
> > fifth
> > "i want one" reply with no other useful information.
> > However, i wasn't trying to offend anyone, if someone preceived 
it 
> that 
> > way i'm sorry.
> > 
> > Please, keep us informed about the progress with that mill, and 
> also about 
> > performance,
> > and problems. It is totally on topic and very interesting, after 
> all most 
> > here have
> > surely thought about buying/building such a mill. There is 
nothing 

> wrong 
> > with offering
> > items for sale, but at some point the communication should go off 
> list, 
> > because
> > the rest of the list has no need to know.
> > 
> > ST
> 
> I agree.  
> 
> I would request Ballendo make a web page or yahoo list for the new 
> product and then allow us to respond there.
> 
> it would not need to be formal as the offer is in-formal : )
> 
> But, some of us have e-mailed ballendo and not gotten responses.  I 
> offered to trade him my T-Tech and a grand for his new machine. but 
> thank goodness he didn't respond, It sold for well over 3 grand !
> 
> 
> Dave

Stefan,

Thank you. I agree. The response to one email is worse than the one 
email, as is often the case on these groups...

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> I do not think it would be any problem whatsoever if ballendo
> gets the "i want a machine for sure" in his private email and not 
on the 
> group.
> As said before i would like to have all other techincal discussion 
on list,
> so that more members can decide they want a machine and we might 
learn
> something even if we don't buy this one.
> But my initial complaint (which is send the "i want one" directly 
to him 
> and
> not on list) still stands.
> I don't understand what the problem is to copy his adress instead 
of the 
> list
> adress, but i know for sure this discussion now is ridiculous and 
did cost
> me way more time than just ignoring the commercial mails.
> 
> In the end it is very simple, unless steve says stop it you can 
send 
> whatever
> you want. I just tried to encourage thinking about what is relevant 
to the 
> list
> and what not. It is not my task to decide that.
> 
> 
> Well, good luck.
> I hope we soon hear about how the first delivered machines perform.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:45:03 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Dave and Stefan,
> >
> > I beg to disagree a bit on the subject. I feel that Ballendo is
> > not 'just another seller'. He is one of us, meaning that he is 
really
> > one of us. If it were my board I would issue a waver for that 
machine
> > and any other product that is truly benefiting this hobby. I'll 
give
> > you examples who I think would qualify for such a waver, should 
they

> > need one:
> >
> 
> 
> > That is my personal opinion. Respectfully, Mike

Dave,

IMO you're way off the mark here... (And Steve has said so before. 
There is nothing wrong--according to Steve, who OWNS the list--with 
discussing ALL aspects of making "homebrew pcb's", INCLUDING making 
cnc pcb drills and mills.  You were told this a few months ago, and 
Steve even said he was surprised--and a bit disappointed--that you 
felt the need to start new group due to YOUR interpretation of THIS 
groups parameters... We talk about converting printer fusers into 
laminators and inkjets into resist printers?!? Why NOT discuss 
computerised homebrew pcb machines? 

(BTW, If you want to see the results of over-moderation of topics on 
a group, just look at the monthly postings "numbers" at the formerly 
bustling CAD CAM EDM DRO yahoo group...)

HAVING SAID all that, I am NOT "discussing" how to build a cnc 
mill/drill/ (except to answer others questions; as in my recent how 
to use a Sherline mill more effectively for Pcb's) 

I AM offering one as a COMPLETE kit. Including power 
supply/interface, drives, motors, mechanicals AND software. At half 
price to members of this list only (initially)

Ballendo

>"Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> wrote:
>Here is where I disagree.
> 
> THIS hobby is MAKING PCB's, and NOT making machines that make PCB's.
> 
> TurboCNC, Xylotex, Gecko's  ??? I would venture to say that 95% of 
> the people on this list don't have a clue to any of those three 
> products and will never need to.
> 
> They are squarely in MACHINE BUILDING and have nothing to do with 
> making PCB's.
> 
> There are multiple machin building and design lists and although it 
> is an interesting topic for many of us, does not make it a 
mainstream 
> topic for this list.
> 
> John's and Ballendo's machines are dead center for making PCB's and 
I 
> am sure are more than welcome here.  People selling supplies would 
be 
> just as welcome.  I think there is a guy who sells sensitized 
boards, 
> but he rarely posts about them on here. (if he is lurking, send me 
an 
> e-mail off list)
> 
> Any talk about the tools that make boards are dead center for this 
> list, but talk about the parts that make the parts that are part of 
> the thing that makes boards is a little far removed.  And to that 
> end, My point is that on a machnine tool list, you will have 
> mechanical engineers with years of experiance in building machines 
> and who may never have made a PCB.  and on this list I think we 
have 

> Electrical engineers who have years of experiance designing and 
> making PCB's, but have never made a machine to make a pcb.
> 
> I think allowance is made to post the totally commercial venture as 
> it does pertain to the list and he is a member and all that.
> 
> I do agree with Stefan that most of us should have sent a privite 
> post to Ballendo and not one to the list.  Making transactions for 
> sales in not proper for the list.
> 
> Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> IMO you're way off the mark here... (And Steve has said so before. 
> There is nothing wrong--according to Steve, who OWNS the list--with 
> discussing ALL aspects of making "homebrew pcb's", INCLUDING making 
> cnc pcb drills and mills.  You were told this a few months ago, and 
> Steve even said he was surprised--and a bit disappointed--that you 
> felt the need to start new group due to YOUR interpretation of THIS 
> groups parameters... We talk about converting printer fusers into 
> laminators and inkjets into resist printers?!? Why NOT discuss 
> computerised homebrew pcb machines? 

Don't over react.

the poster said that free reign should be given to those who have 
some products, specifically, TurboCNC, Gecko, Xylotex...  and so on.

My response was to him, that the list topic is in the title. and the 
first line of the group home page.  let me quote it again 
"Making, etching, soldering printed circuit boards yourself."

re-read the home page.  I'll paraphrase  "professionals should not 
spam the list except about once a month"

My powers of observation and engineering and my above average 
fantastic insight and above average intelegence that G_d has given me 
has enabled me to read and understand those words.

You do not go to a bunch of mechanical engineers and ask about the 
specifics making pcbs.    I'm not sure why that is just so apparent 
to me and not a some others.....

 
> (BTW, If you want to see the results of over-moderation of topics 
on 
> a group, just look at the monthly postings "numbers" at the 
formerly 
> bustling CAD CAM EDM DRO yahoo group...)

You and I have had that conversation off list before your DIY-CNC 
list and we both predicted that many of the heavy hitters would opt 
for a list in which they are free to talk.  No argument from me on 
that.
 
> HAVING SAID all that, I am NOT "discussing" how to build a cnc 
> mill/drill/ (except to answer others questions; as in my recent how 
> to use a Sherline mill more effectively for Pcb's) 

I agree and I am HAPPY that you posted over here with your machine, 
and am looking forward to getting more details about it.  And will be 
happy to discuss how to make it work and all the ins's and outs with 
it as we start to get more experiance with it.  

I do predict that you will create a seperate list to discuss that 
machine in the near future.  If you too see that as an inevitablilty, 
then why is it that you feel the need to (I'll use your 
words) "dissapoint" Steve with yet another new group when this one is 
already established ?  Don't you see that is exactly what I have been 
saying ? that specialized things grow and the need becomes clear to 
collect the brain trust into a group that has a much higher level of  
experiance and learning for that specific area ?  ( when that day 
comes and you see that this list has some limits, I think you could 
offer Steve a free unit to ease his dissapointment)

But, as for your machine,  IT (your machine) fits the group dead 
center.  Talk about it all you want. I'm not trying to moderate you 
or anyone else.  I will speak my mind as many others have done.

And I would bet you a new machine that somewhere on some list I can 
find where you told someone to go to another list to get the answers 
to their question.  lemme see...if I can find a post from you, then I 
would get a machine.... if I can't then I'd buy one (at $500 of 
course)  

This is NOT the list to get answers on Geckos. plain as day.  it is 
also not the list you used to design your machine and select metals 
and finshes and structural components and even motor driver circuit 
boards.  If you would not use this list for such research why would 
you be offended if someone told someone else to go to a list the 
professionals in that other field for answers ?

This is the list to discuss your machine and it's abilities and the 
future options and such so don't hold back.  And don't think I am 
pointing fingers at you.  Just that if you have a question on 
Sherline mills, you will not get other mill owners on here to answer 
the questions and that another list exists for such a need.

But your machine fits well so give us more details.

"Homebrew_PCBs · Homebrew Printed Circuit Boards"
"Making, etching, soldering printed circuit boards yourself."

> I AM offering one as a COMPLETE kit. Including power 
> supply/interface, drives, motors, mechanicals AND software. At half 
> price to members of this list only (initially)
> 
> Ballendo

> Ballendo
>
> P.S. I find it interesting that one email onlist-- which was a
> mistake, I believe-- has generated this much commentary... I never
> asked anyone to reply ONlist. (Believe me, I've had quite a few
> OFFList replies...) For which I thank you all!
>

;-) it wasn't one mail...
there were 4 or 5 i ignored, and reading the sixt i thougt i might
point out it is not interesting for 99% of the group who buys a mill...
What a mistake......

Well, tomorrow we will laugh about it i think.

ST

Stefan, would you call your 'mistake' a case of overmoderation?

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> > Ballendo
> >
> > P.S. I find it interesting that one email onlist-- which was a
> > mistake, I believe-- has generated this much commentary... I never
> > asked anyone to reply ONlist. (Believe me, I've had quite a few
> > OFFList replies...) For which I thank you all!
> >
> 
> ;-) it wasn't one mail...
> there were 4 or 5 i ignored, and reading the sixt i thougt i might
> point out it is not interesting for 99% of the group who buys a 
mill...

> What a mistake......
> 
> Well, tomorrow we will laugh about it i think.
> 
> ST

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:28 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Stefan, would you call your 'mistake' a case of overmoderation?
>
> Mike

No, definitely not.
I still believe it was wrong to send a couple of clearly off topic,
clearly private mails on list. I'd probably do the same again tomorrow.
Just because the reaction wasn't what i wanted to achieve doesn't make the 
attempt
wrong. But this series of mails is even more useless and off topic, so we
probably should not send them i reckon ....



ST

a bit of a joke on my part, Stefan, no harm intended.

TT is working for me also very well, but I am concerned with what 
what Jeremy said that he measured the heat distortion of a laser 
print out and it is something on level of 0.010 if I rememebr 
correctly. Stefan, do you make SMD boards also?

The fact that Marcus is making 4 layer boards is an incredible news.

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:28 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> > Stefan, would you call your 'mistake' a case of overmoderation?
> >
> > Mike
> 
> No, definitely not.
> I still believe it was wrong to send a couple of clearly off topic,
> clearly private mails on list. I'd probably do the same again 
tomorrow.
> Just because the reaction wasn't what i wanted to achieve doesn't 
make the 
> attempt
> wrong. But this series of mails is even more useless and off topic, 
so we

> probably should not send them i reckon ....
> 
> 
> 
> ST

>The fact that Marcus is making 4 layer boards is an incredible news.

Mike,

Actually 4 (or 6 for that matter) layers is not even really hard. It's
a bit more work but definately doable. Basically I do my own
multilayers because I think I'm not that good with PCB design - as
silly as this sounds. It puts me into the possition to test a board
quickly and efficiently (a four layer with say 200 holes 3.5x3.5
inches takes about 4 hours to complete) before I give it into
production. I really hate ending up with 200 boards to trash just
because I overlooked a tiny detail of elko X touching the housing
somewhere or such.

I glue the layers together with 5 minute epoxy. That's well enough for
prototyping purposes and private use. I would however not SELL such a
board to others just to be on the save side.

There are posts in the past of me about the topic where I describe the
process mostly step by step. Please bear with me if I'm too lazy to
retype all this. I'm also a bit under pressure since I leave to a two
week holiday in a couple of hours.

Markus

On Thursday 29 July 2004 01:44 am, Steve wrote:
> And let me just say: I want one! But I can't afford it.
>
> Steve, crying quietly

Yeah,  I know *exactly* what you mean,  there...	:-(

<snip>

> There are posts in the past of me about the topic where I describe 
the
> process mostly step by step. Please bear with me if I'm too lazy to
> retype all this. I'm also a bit under pressure since I leave to a 
two
> week holiday in a couple of hours.
> 
> Markus

I can search the list in a few minutes and offer post numbers so we 
can all read up while you are on holiday.

Have a wonderful time on Holiday !

Dave

Dave,

As far as a four layer board is concerned, an extensive check on 
what's available in the archives and emails with Makrus brought me to 
conclusion that a four layer board is not neccesary to my happieness -
 I don't need it. For thruholes I took the advise to check thinktink 
website and came up with this link:

http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/inksup.htm  Zero 
ohm resistors sound very sweet at this point.

Then I found out that he might have a conductive ink

http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/specs/inkspec.htm

I think that once we have Ballendo's machine it would be possible to 
use that ink to print our own PCBs.

Mike

"Keep the main thing, the main thing"

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> <snip>
> 
> > There are posts in the past of me about the topic where I 
describe 
> the
> > process mostly step by step. Please bear with me if I'm too lazy 
to

> > retype all this. I'm also a bit under pressure since I leave to a 
> two
> > week holiday in a couple of hours.
> > 
> > Markus
> 
> I can search the list in a few minutes and offer post numbers so we 
> can all read up while you are on holiday.
> 
> Have a wonderful time on Holiday !
> 
> Dave

>Have a wonderful time on Holiday !
>
>Dave

Thanks, 

Markus - one leg already inside the car...

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:02:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> a bit of a joke on my part, Stefan, no harm intended.
>
> TT is working for me also very well, but I am concerned with what
> what Jeremy said that he measured the heat distortion of a laser
> print out and it is something on level of 0.010 if I rememebr
> correctly. Stefan, do you make SMD boards also?
>
> The fact that Marcus is making 4 layer boards is an incredible news.
>
> Mike
>

I'm also concerned about distortion, but i found something more unsettling
last time making a board. the fuser/laminator to transfer made
the paper shrink about 1mm on 100mm length. (i discovered that when trying
to align a "silkscreen" component legend on the etched copper side).
There is definitely some more measuring needed.
First to determine how much distortion the laser itself has and then how 
much it
is harmed by the laminator. I believe passing the paper through before 
printing
would "pre-shrink" it and lessen the effect.
I'll let you know when i had time to do a few testprints.

As for SMD - i prefer it 'cause i don't like the drilling.
Populating/soldering too is easier and faster.
There are certain parts i use throughole (old stock, salvaged, high power 
parts,
mechanically strained components) but when there is SMD in my storage i'll 
use it
and it is definitely preferred when buying new parts.
I have no trouble with the resolution as 6,66mil is the limit (my printer).
There is a point where you have "ideal" single-layer boards, which in my 
opinion
is throughhole ICs and SMD passive components. this allows for easiest 
routing.
More SMD makes it harder again.
You can see a very simple (1206) SMD board witht the alignment problem at
<http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e0225977/pub/comp_bot.jpg>
sorry, i have no picture of finer art at the moment but it is easily 
possible.

ST

Thanks for the comments, Stefan. I like the idea of preshrinking the 
paper same principle applies to new cotton shirt, that mother used to 
buy a size larger tocompensate for that shrinkage. Attached PCB looks 
to me quite nice. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:02:48 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> > a bit of a joke on my part, Stefan, no harm intended.
> >
> > TT is working for me also very well, but I am concerned with what
> > what Jeremy said that he measured the heat distortion of a laser
> > print out and it is something on level of 0.010 if I rememebr
> > correctly. Stefan, do you make SMD boards also?
> >
> > The fact that Marcus is making 4 layer boards is an incredible 
news.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> 
> I'm also concerned about distortion, but i found something more 
unsettling
> last time making a board. the fuser/laminator to transfer made
> the paper shrink about 1mm on 100mm length. (i discovered that when 
trying
> to align a "silkscreen" component legend on the etched copper side).
> There is definitely some more measuring needed.
> First to determine how much distortion the laser itself has and 
then how 
> much it
> is harmed by the laminator. I believe passing the paper through 
before 
> printing
> would "pre-shrink" it and lessen the effect.
> I'll let you know when i had time to do a few testprints.
> 
> As for SMD - i prefer it 'cause i don't like the drilling.
> Populating/soldering too is easier and faster.
> There are certain parts i use throughole (old stock, salvaged, high 
power 
> parts,
> mechanically strained components) but when there is SMD in my 
storage i'll 
> use it
> and it is definitely preferred when buying new parts.
> I have no trouble with the resolution as 6,66mil is the limit (my 
printer).
> There is a point where you have "ideal" single-layer boards, which 
in my 
> opinion
> is throughhole ICs and SMD passive components. this allows for 
easiest 
> routing.
> More SMD makes it harder again.
> You can see a very simple (1206) SMD board witht the alignment 
problem at
> <http://stud4.tuwien.ac.at/~e0225977/pub/comp_bot.jpg>
> sorry, i have no picture of finer art at the moment but it is 
easily 

> possible.
> 
> ST

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:55:33 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the comments, Stefan. I like the idea of preshrinking the
> paper same principle applies to new cotton shirt, that mother used to
> buy a size larger tocompensate for that shrinkage. Attached PCB looks
> to me quite nice. Mike

The important thing is the shirt shrinks very much the first time you wash
it, and then much, much less.
Buying the shit larger is more like printing at, say, 101% scale to 
compensate.
What i have in mind is wash the fabric before the taylor cuts the shirt. 
Thus
causing most shrink before the image is printed and having less distortion 
later on.

But of course that needs proof of concept, which i'll do asap.

ST

No, I didn't forget...

Hello again,

Just wanted to say that the pcb drills/cnc mills I'm bringing out are 
still on their way...

Still expect to be taking orders this month for delivery late this 
month.

The details and pictures that I promised are coming THIS week instead 
of last week. Two reasons. First, I had a really tough time with a 
cnc control program last week. It was appearing to work correctly; 
but the pulses to the motor were incorrect. It was a VERY subtle 
thing, and it took a few days of my time.

Next, there have been some major design changes in the machine. I got 
rid of the 3/4" round rails. There are HUGE benefits for both of us, 
mostly for you, but an important couple for me too<G> I'll put "your" 
benefits at the top<G>

First, the machine is stiffer. Not only have the changes made 
component parts stiffer; it has also reduced overhangs and cantilever 
ratios. More importantly, the rails have gone from end supported 
round rails, to fully supported rectangular rails. Even if this were 
the only benefit, it would have been worth making the change. But 
there's more. A LOT more...  

For instance, it is MUCH easier to build. AND much easier to adjust.  

Third, it allows for easy upgrade to bearings and rails capable of 
allowing this little machine to mill STEEL. Yes, you read that right. 
At some point down the road, these guys will be able to mill steel. 
(A rails/bearing upgrade will be required, and offered.) 

Fourth, the new bearings have a greater load capability, and are 
preload adjustable. The old ones weren't; but they were replaceable. 
The new ones are replaceable too, but expected life before needing 
too is far longer.

Fifth, the machine TRAVELS HAVE INCREASED. It is now a 10"+ by 10"+ 
by 2-1/2" machine! (BTW the "+" means that the 10" travel is AT LEAST 
that much. There is additional travel beyond this, and some of it 
will be usable. I've always thought it was a bit unfair to say a 
machine has 10 inch "travel", when that's really the dimension of the 
rails minus the sliders. You never can get travel completely to the 
ends, IME. For example, this machine has 13-3/8 rails, and the Y 
slider is 2-3/4 wide. so the POSSIBLE travel is 10-5/8. I just call 
this 10"+, even though you will likely get 10-3/8 or so...

Sixth, in addition to the longer axis travels; you can work on larger 
workpieces. The space between the gantry uprights has increased, and 
a motor cable which WAS "inside"--between them, is now "outside" so 
the full available width is usable for larger workpieces. Figure it 
for work that is 13-1/4 max width, of any length, and up to 2-3/8 
inches thick.

Most everything else is as before. You still get microstepping 
drives, it's still a COMPLETE kit. The wires are still running in 
tracks, so you don't have the commonly seen IMO "half-done" flying 
wires everywhere, and I won't have to "doctor up" the pics so you 
don't notice this fact before buying one...(As many small cnc 
makers/builders seem to do<G>) Still leadscrew drive with anti-
backlash nuts. Still a HUGE range of accessories planned and being 
implemented, including fourth axes: vinyl cutting(TANGENTIAL)and 
rotary tables, "Home shop" pick and place, board inspection--camera 
mount and S/W, turning attachments, high speed spindles, 
machine "look" customisations, and much more...

It will still take a few hours to put together, but IMO, those hours 
will be less frustrating due to better accessibility of needed and 
desirable adjustments. This is a very nice machine.

And the best part? It's STILL only 500 bucks for you guys (and gals) 
on this list...

Now to my benefits:

A) I was pushing the "limits" of MFG. tolerances, and asking a LOT of 
the bearings I was using. That's part of the reason I was using 3/4 
inch rails; it reduced the PV (pressure/velocity coefficient). Also 
the fact that the round rails were end-supported only made it a good 
idea to use a larger diameter.  NOW, I am WELL within acceptable 
bearing loads. My allowable mfg. tolerances are greater. My suppliers 
are breathing easier, which is good for both/all of us<G>.

B) Making it easier for you to build and adjust makes it easier for 
me to support.

C) I've eliminated two suppliers. The logistics of MFG. will be 
easier. Our cost to mfr. "may" be lower, but only time will answer 
that one for sure.

The downside? This "lost" week of re-doing things, money spent for 
parts that now won't/can't be used, and I DID lose a really great 
little place to join the Z/A/C motor and it's cable inside a housing. 
(Still working to see if I can get those wires back "inside" 
and "under cover" (And I prob'ly WILL; I hate dangling wiring<G>) 

Thank you for your patience, and all the expressed interest. Pictures 
this week<G>

Ballendo

Hello,

Working hard. stop. Going well. stop. Few more days. stop. Ballendo