Homebrew PCBs

Hello,

I purchased an Epson Stylus C84 some months ago (this unit is 
amazingly quiet!). I'm using Newscraft LGN Imaging Paper (System 
Facilities Inc., Syracuse, NY) to create artwork for double-sided 
ferric chloride etching. (The package states this translucent laser 
printer paper is for positive or negative images to use in exposing 
screens or printing plates directly without film. Also, it 
is "specially coated to improve toner adhesion," and 
is "dimensionally stable under heat and pressure -- holds 
registration in color separations.")

Additionally, I have a portable UV vacuum unit for processing the 
photo resist-covered brass sheets I use. Then, it's on to a heated 
power spray etching tank that I built (from Randy Gordon-Gilmore's 
online plans).

I do not use this setup for PCBs; rather, we own a small startup fine 
scale model production company. I'd like to ask a couple or three 
questions, if I may:

1) The discussion here about "direct to plate" resist imaging, using 
modified printers, applies only to single-sided plate preparation, 
correct? I am having a devil of a time applying the photo resist 
sheeting (from Think and Tinker) to the brass without bubbling (the 
brass is cleaned meticulously according to instructions).

I'd sure love to discover an alternative to the photo resist method 
I'm now using. 

2) Might someone here be familiar with the C84 and its printing 
resolution? I do not clearly understand printing resolution 
interpolation. . . .

Thank you much,

-Brian

Brian Chapman
Cedar Rapids, Iowa


---

> 1) The discussion here about "direct to plate" resist imaging, using
> modified printers, applies only to single-sided plate preparation,
> correct?

Not only, by using some aligning guide it could well be used for 
double-sided
etching.


> I'd sure love to discover an alternative to the photo resist method
> I'm now using.
>

I'm rather stuck with the direct inkjet printing and have no clue what to 
try next.
I tried using undiluted staedtler RED and it clogged a color head.
The 1:1 alcohol diluted seemed to work well, but i am not sure how long
it could stay in the head without damage.

I hope someone tells me what to do next, or i have a good idea suddenly ;-)

Oh well, good that the TT is working fine...

ST

I use Think and Tinker film, and had a hell of  time till i did:
1) use a 10% methanol pre spary,  2) Got a good laminator 3) used a carrier

As a last resort- Bubbles can be popped, and then put the board back thru the laminator 
I have not had bubbles or streaks or rips since I did the above
JT

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brian Chapman 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 10:33 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Epson C84 printer?


  Hello,

  I purchased an Epson Stylus C84 some months ago (this unit is 
  amazingly quiet!). I'm using Newscraft LGN Imaging Paper (System 
  Facilities Inc., Syracuse, NY) to create artwork for double-sided 
  ferric chloride etching. (The package states this translucent laser 
  printer paper is for positive or negative images to use in exposing 
  screens or printing plates directly without film. Also, it 
  is "specially coated to improve toner adhesion," and 
  is "dimensionally stable under heat and pressure -- holds 
  registration in color separations.")

  Additionally, I have a portable UV vacuum unit for processing the 
  photo resist-covered brass sheets I use. Then, it's on to a heated 
  power spray etching tank that I built (from Randy Gordon-Gilmore's 
  online plans).

  I do not use this setup for PCBs; rather, we own a small startup fine 
  scale model production company. I'd like to ask a couple or three 
  questions, if I may:

  1) The discussion here about "direct to plate" resist imaging, using 
  modified printers, applies only to single-sided plate preparation, 
  correct? I am having a devil of a time applying the photo resist 
  sheeting (from Think and Tinker) to the brass without bubbling (the 
  brass is cleaned meticulously according to instructions).

  I'd sure love to discover an alternative to the photo resist method 
  I'm now using. 

  2) Might someone here be familiar with the C84 and its printing 
  resolution? I do not clearly understand printing resolution 
  interpolation. . . .

  Thank you much,

  -Brian

  Brian Chapman
  Cedar Rapids, Iowa


  ---



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chapman"
<cornbeltroute@a...> wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I purchased an Epson Stylus C84 some months ago (this unit is 
> amazingly quiet!). I'm using Newscraft LGN Imaging Paper (System 
> Facilities Inc., Syracuse, NY) to create artwork for double-sided 
> ferric chloride etching. (The package states this translucent laser 
> printer paper is for positive or negative images to use in exposing 
> screens or printing plates directly without film. Also, it 
> is "specially coated to improve toner adhesion," and 
> is "dimensionally stable under heat and pressure -- holds 
> registration in color separations.")

Very interesting that Epson Durabrite inks stick to a laser
transparency. I'd have not thought it was possible! Perhaps it's
because of improvements that allow the Durabrite in the C84 to print
onto some glossy inkjet papers.

FYI, the Durabrite inks from one model to the next are not the same.
The C82 and C80 only print on matte paper.

> Additionally, I have a portable UV vacuum unit for processing the 
> photo resist-covered brass sheets I use. Then, it's on to a heated 
> power spray etching tank that I built (from Randy Gordon-Gilmore's 
> online plans).

Do you have a link? If so, it'd be great if you could put it in the
Links section.

> I do not use this setup for PCBs; rather, we own a small startup fine 
> scale model production company. I'd like to ask a couple or three 
> questions, if I may:
> 
> 1) The discussion here about "direct to plate" resist imaging, using 
> modified printers, applies only to single-sided plate preparation, 
> correct? I am having a devil of a time applying the photo resist 
> sheeting (from Think and Tinker) to the brass without bubbling (the 
> brass is cleaned meticulously according to instructions).

How are you applying the photoresist sheeting?

> I'd sure love to discover an alternative to the photo resist method 
> I'm now using. 
> 
> 2) Might someone here be familiar with the C84 and its printing 
> resolution? I do not clearly understand printing resolution 
> interpolation. . . .

This is timely. I just got this link from another list, it discusses
printer resolution and why 288 lpi is the right raster image
resolution to send to a printer with a stated resolution of 720dpi or
a multiple of that.
http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/Epson2200/

Steve

Stefan, Jeremy, Steve,

>> 1) The discussion here about "direct to plate" resist imaging, 
using modified printers, applies only to single-sided plate 
preparation, correct? <<

> Not only, by using some aligning guide it could well be used for 
double-sided etching. <

I'll have to pursue this once a printer method is up and working.

> I'm rather stuck with the direct inkjet printing and have no clue 
what to try next. . . . Oh well, good that the TT is working fine. <

Uh, TT? As you can tell, I'm pretty new at all this.

> I use Think and Tinker film, and had a hell of time till I did: 1) 
use a 10% methanol pre-spray, 2) got a good laminator 3) used a 
carrier. As a last resort: Bubbles can be popped, and then put the 
board back thru the laminator. I have not had bubbles or streaks or 
rips since I did the above. <

Jeremy, is methanol available over the counter at, say, a drug store? 
Methanol and water mix? I'm using a Regal laminator, and when I 
finally began using a carrier the resulting resist-covered plates 
were improved. I've tried a light spray of water, but I'll certainly 
give the methanol approach a try next time I etch.

> Very interesting that Epson Durabrite inks stick to a laser 
transparency. I'd have not thought it was possible! <

With the C84, one of the "paper" options is transparency film. The 
C84 Durabrite ink works extremely well with the LGN translucent paper 
I mentioned. Also, the C84 resolution appears finer than the output 
from my 1200 dpi HP laser. Is this possible?

> power spray etching tank that I built (from Randy Gordon-Gilmore's 
online plans) <

>> Do you have a link? If so, it'd be great if you could put it in 
the Links section. <<

You bet. I put the URL in Links > Photoresist etching > Build a Power 
Spray Etching System.

> I just got this link from another list, it discusses printer 
resolution and why 288 lpi is the right raster image resolution to 
send to a printer with a stated resolution of 720dpi or a multiple of 
that:
http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/Epson2200/ <

I'm looking forward to exploring this link later today.

Thank you all for the help. Much obliged.  -Brian   

Brian Chapman/Cedar Rapids, Iowa

---

> Uh, TT? As you can tell, I'm pretty new at all this.

sorry, toner transfer. using a laser printer, printing on coated paper,
placing the paper on the to-be-etched metal, "fuse it" by heat and pressure
(iron, laminator, fuser), peel it (soak paper in water), ready.
the toner sticks to the metal and is the resist.


> Jeremy, is methanol available over the counter at, say, a drug store?
> Methanol and water mix?

It's alcohol, yes it is easily available. may be expensive at the drug 
store.


ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chapman"
<cornbeltroute@a...> wrote:
...> 
> Uh, TT? As you can tell, I'm pretty new at all this.

Toner Transfer. See Links. Basically you print laser printer onto a
carrier (plain paper, magazine pages, special films, lots of things
have been tried and work) and it is heat pressed onto the blank
copper. Depending on the paper used, it is either peeled or soaked and
rubbed off, leaving the toner stuck onto the copper as etch resist.
Acetone or fingernail polish remover wipes the toner right off after
etching.

> > I use Think and Tinker film, and had a hell of time till I did: 1) 
> use a 10% methanol pre-spray, 2) got a good laminator 3) used a 
> carrier. As a last resort: Bubbles can be popped, and then put the 
> board back thru the laminator. I have not had bubbles or streaks or 
> rips since I did the above. <
> 
> Jeremy, is methanol available over the counter at, say, a drug store? 
> Methanol and water mix? I'm using a Regal laminator, and when I 
> finally began using a carrier the resulting resist-covered plates 
> were improved. I've tried a light spray of water, but I'll certainly 
> give the methanol approach a try next time I etch.

Hmmm... I know it as a fuel additive. Ironically, it's added to
Ethanol to make Denatured alcohol, so-called because it's toxic with
the addition of Methanol.

> > Very interesting that Epson Durabrite inks stick to a laser 
> transparency. I'd have not thought it was possible! <
> 
> With the C84, one of the "paper" options is transparency film. The 
> C84 Durabrite ink works extremely well with the LGN translucent paper 
> I mentioned. Also, the C84 resolution appears finer than the output 
> from my 1200 dpi HP laser. Is this possible?

Except on every other printer (which also have "transparency"
settings) it assumes inkjet transparency, which is specially coated to
hold the ink.

The C84 has variable drop size, much smaller than the default fixed
size of a toner dot. Also, your HP laser may be "enhanced resolution
1200dpi", meaning it's really 600dpi but they pull some tricks to get
slightly better resolution.

> > power spray etching tank that I built (from Randy Gordon-Gilmore's 
> online plans) <
> 
> >> Do you have a link? If so, it'd be great if you could put it in 
> the Links section. <<
> 
> You bet. I put the URL in Links > Photoresist etching > Build a Power 
> Spray Etching System.

Thanks!

> > I just got this link from another list, it discusses printer 
> resolution and why 288 lpi is the right raster image resolution to 
> send to a printer with a stated resolution of 720dpi or a multiple of 
> that:
> http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/Epson2200/ <
> 
> I'm looking forward to exploring this link later today.

Keep in mind if you are printing from a vector image, don't worry
about resolution of the file.

Steve

Hi all...

two short notes concerning toner transfer:

A) i use now a "chicken grill" spit rotating motor for driving my fuser.
it is as slow as a snail now, and a really slow snail i mean.

I tried 2 passes for the first pcb and it is perfect, maybe i try reducing
it to 1 pass.
Really quick and easy to build.


B) paper - i tried the other Avery/Zweckform paper, the thinner one with 
100g
instead of 150g.
The number is 2588, it is coated on both sides.

I also cut it in half and print only on this paper (i did tape a piece of 
the 150g
paper to 80g office paper before).
this reduces the thickness by over 100% and GREATLY improves density and 
reduces pinholes.

(the doublesided coating is nice, you need not take care to use the right 
side.)

Soaking is also much faster, as expected. comes off really easy.

So, once you have found your paper try to get the lightest version they 
make with
the particular coating. it is much better for TT (and usually cheaper).

I will add the paper to the database after i have made a few boards to get 
a objective
assessment.

ST

I'm sorry - I should have said:
Denatured Alcohol
It's available at hardware stores in the painting section. 
JT

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brian Chapman 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 1:49 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson C84 printer?


  Stefan, Jeremy, Steve,

  >> 1) The discussion here about "direct to plate" resist imaging, 
  using modified printers, applies only to single-sided plate 
  preparation, correct? <<

  > Not only, by using some aligning guide it could well be used for 
  double-sided etching. <

  I'll have to pursue this once a printer method is up and working.

  > I'm rather stuck with the direct inkjet printing and have no clue 
  what to try next. . . . Oh well, good that the TT is working fine. <

  Uh, TT? As you can tell, I'm pretty new at all this.

  > I use Think and Tinker film, and had a hell of time till I did: 1) 
  use a 10% methanol pre-spray, 2) got a good laminator 3) used a 
  carrier. As a last resort: Bubbles can be popped, and then put the 
  board back thru the laminator. I have not had bubbles or streaks or 
  rips since I did the above. <

  Jeremy, is methanol available over the counter at, say, a drug store? 
  Methanol and water mix? I'm using a Regal laminator, and when I 
  finally began using a carrier the resulting resist-covered plates 
  were improved. I've tried a light spray of water, but I'll certainly 
  give the methanol approach a try next time I etch.

  > Very interesting that Epson Durabrite inks stick to a laser 
  transparency. I'd have not thought it was possible! <

  With the C84, one of the "paper" options is transparency film. The 
  C84 Durabrite ink works extremely well with the LGN translucent paper 
  I mentioned. Also, the C84 resolution appears finer than the output 
  from my 1200 dpi HP laser. Is this possible?

  > power spray etching tank that I built (from Randy Gordon-Gilmore's 
  online plans) <

  >> Do you have a link? If so, it'd be great if you could put it in 
  the Links section. <<

  You bet. I put the URL in Links > Photoresist etching > Build a Power 
  Spray Etching System.

  > I just got this link from another list, it discusses printer 
  resolution and why 288 lpi is the right raster image resolution to 
  send to a printer with a stated resolution of 720dpi or a multiple of 
  that:
  http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/Epson2200/ <

  I'm looking forward to exploring this link later today.

  Thank you all for the help. Much obliged.  -Brian   

  Brian Chapman/Cedar Rapids, Iowa

  ---







  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 


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              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> With the C84, one of the "paper" options is transparency film. The
> C84 Durabrite ink works extremely well with the LGN translucent paper
> I mentioned. Also, the C84 resolution appears finer than the output
> from my 1200 dpi HP laser. Is this possible?

>Except on every other printer (which also have "transparency"
>settings) it assumes inkjet transparency, which is specially coated to
>hold the ink.

I find that both my C60 and C82's Durabrite ink sticks even to clear
polycarbonate film without a problem, as long as I let it air dry for an
hour or so. Same deal with glossy paper. However, I did do a lot of playing
with the settings to make it work correctly.

Ron

doing small series really speeds up the learning curve...

i tried 1 run through the fuser -> 2 small errors where the toner didn't 
stick.

later i remembered i used laquer thinner instead of denatuerd alcohol to 
clean this time.

so i made the 3rd board with denatured alcohol cleaning again and 1 run,
-> no errors.

I have noticed several times now that laquer thinner does produce errors.
i guess it does not degrease the surface as good as alcohol does.
it might also be that this bottle of thinner is contaminated with grease
(e.g. wetted a greasy rag by pressing against the opening and turning 
upside down)

i timed the feed rate of the fuser at 10mm per minute.

If someone can think of a way how to measure the pressure easily i will do 
it.

The temperatuere is at 160 degree C.

ST

oh, yes, my step-by-step procedure:

Switch on printer
plug in fuser heater, temp control, and turn on motor (even heating of 
drum).
put a half A4 paper in printer.
print.
while printing wipe the pcb with laquer thinner to get off grease.
sand transfer side of pcb with 600grit paper
wet a corner of a paper towel with denatured alcohol.
wipe the pcb and dry with another corner.
then again wet a corner of the towel with alcohol and wipe the pcb
do not dry it but place it on top of the fuser to dry.
cut out the in the meanwhile printed paper.
align, and feed into the fuser.
take out (pliers) and drop in water.
immediately start rubbing, take of most of the paper fast.
only leave the last layer of the paper (coating).
now dip again in water and rub off the last layer.
now take a piece of foam rubber and give the board a strong rub.
It will take out any paper from the drillholes, and where traces are close
together.
flush, ready.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> doing small series really speeds up the learning curve...
> 
> i tried 1 run through the fuser -> 2 small errors where the toner 
didn't 
> stick.
> 
> later i remembered i used laquer thinner instead of denatuerd 
alcohol to 
> clean this time.
> 
> so i made the 3rd board with denatured alcohol cleaning again and 1 
run,
> -> no errors.


I have found that the slightest fingerprint on the surface will 
prevent a good transfer.

Dave

> How are you applying the photoresist sheeting?
> 
> > I'd sure love to discover an alternative to the
> photo resist method 

Try this:

Wet the surface that you are applying the sheeting to
with alchohol (Or some solvent that does not harm the
resist, but does not contaminate the surface of the
board). Then put the sheet on it and starting from the
middle of the sheet (Or a corner. Some people like the
middle, some like a corner...), using a piece of
plastic as a wiper (Something that is flexable) press
the air bubbles and excess alcohol out.

Regards

Marvin Dickens

=====
Registered Linux User No. 80253
If you use linux, get counted at: 
http://www.linuxcounter.org


	
		
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> I have found that the slightest fingerprint on the surface will
> prevent a good transfer.
>
> Dave
>
yes of course.
what i wanted to say is laquer thinner seems not to degrease it as good as 
alcohol does.

ST