Homebrew PCBs

I have a question regarding the Piezo Heads in Epson printers. 
According to one of the links provided in the previous Inkjet 
threads, the Epson inks are solvent-based. Now I have read that 
solvent inks are non-water based inks. My question is if that can be 
construed as oil based inks? If so, I think I have found some cheap 
refillable inks that I will put into my Epson Ink cartridge and print 
out on some aluminium as Stefan has suggested. 

I feel that once we get the ink situated, a flatbed printer 
conversion would help make the pcb printing process complete becuase 
it would allow for component legends and double sided printing to 
occur flawlessly.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 05:22:42 -0000, gmanca101 <gmanca101@...> wrote:

> I have a question regarding the Piezo Heads in Epson printers.
> According to one of the links provided in the previous Inkjet
> threads, the Epson inks are solvent-based. Now I have read that
> solvent inks are non-water based inks. My question is if that can be
> construed as oil based inks? If so, I think I have found some cheap
> refillable inks that I will put into my Epson Ink cartridge and print
> out on some aluminium as Stefan has suggested.

Why use oil-inks? Why not use solvent inks?
Take the ink for permanent markers known to work with pcbs.
Maybe dilute with alcohol.
I think the epson are alcohol based??


>
> I feel that once we get the ink situated, a flatbed printer
> conversion would help make the pcb printing process complete becuase
> it would allow for component legends and double sided printing to
> occur flawlessly.


I feel the same. you could use the black for resist and the color for 
other stuff.
(if you need more than the resist color)
but the conversion must be after the proof of concept.


st

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> Why use oil-inks? Why not use solvent inks?
> Take the ink for permanent markers known to work with pcbs.
> Maybe dilute with alcohol.
> I think the epson are alcohol based??

The issue here is that I am in the US and cannot find any of the 
Staedler Refill Stations. Maybe if there was a way to remove the ink 
from the pens themselves? 

What I am wondering if solvent inks are oil inks? 

Thanks,
Genaro M.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 07:28:12 -0000, gmanca101 <gmanca101@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> Why use oil-inks? Why not use solvent inks?
>> Take the ink for permanent markers known to work with pcbs.
>> Maybe dilute with alcohol.
>> I think the epson are alcohol based??
>
> The issue here is that I am in the US and cannot find any of the
> Staedler Refill Stations. Maybe if there was a way to remove the ink
> from the pens themselves?

get a "sharpie"
you need a ink that "wets" the metal. ohp pens do that, other flt-tip pens 
not - why?

>
> What I am wondering if solvent inks are oil inks?
>

me too... reading shows it might well be.

are you sure that they are not water based, where to read?

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> get a "sharpie"

Hmm, maybe placing the sharpie in alcohol to "drain" it would work. 
And I noticed that it tends to keep its permanence.


> are you sure that they are not water based, where to read?

Well this site says that Water is different then solvent/oil based. 
http://www.signweb.com/digital/cont/inkjetinks990602.html

Question is, are the Epsons a solvent based ink printer as says this 
site:  http://www.inkjetcartridges.com/_piezo-electric-technology.html

Genaro M.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 07:48:42 -0000, gmanca101 <gmanca101@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> get a "sharpie"
>
> Hmm, maybe placing the sharpie in alcohol to "drain" it would work.
> And I noticed that it tends to keep its permanence.
>
>
>> are you sure that they are not water based, where to read?
>
> Well this site says that Water is different then solvent/oil based.
> http://www.signweb.com/digital/cont/inkjetinks990602.html
>
> Question is, are the Epsons a solvent based ink printer as says this
> site:  http://www.inkjetcartridges.com/_piezo-electric-technology.html
>
> Genaro M.

i've seen pages saying epson uses water but piezo can use both.

ST

look here:

<http://www.imaging.org/resources/leinkjet/part3.cfm>

use arrows at bottom, next is chemistry.

ST

A product that looks like what i have in mind,
the table is moved, making the modification of the printer a very easy 
task.
I do not think we can get any more information on the printer, global 
sources supplyers
are not cooperative if you don't buy a huge number (though they send me a 
magazine
every few weeks - dunno why...)
the thing to note is that it can use solvent and water based:
<http://www.globalsources.com/am/article_id/9000000042033/page/showarticle?action=GetArticle>


I think water based is not much good because it won't dry on metal.
on the other hand acrylic paint would dry and would be water based,
and acts as a resist.


My best bet is still with the solvent type ink, like used by permanent
markers.
Someone here wrote "a collegue put a inkjet head on a flatbed and printed
permanent marker ink (1:1 diluted with alcohol) and it worked".
he wrote the marker was the same as they used to touchup boards.
You can for sure find it in the archives.

It is also quite well possible that the acrylic paint would work with 
piezo,
it did NOT work with bubblejet, which is obvious as the heat "boiling" the 
water
will make it clog terribly (which it did).

I guess i MUST try it, it would be a bit easier than TT and the quality 
would be better.
Also i could possibly prevent buying a new laser (for resolution). Inkjet 
printers
are MUCH cheaper.


ST

Stefan, Not to disagree with you, but I recently experimented with 
Epson 1520 which isa piezo printer and the printer doesn't like 
anything different than original Epson printer. After using an 
aftermarket ink the printer died and the printhead smoked (!)

I'will remind that my experience with floor wax killed few printers. 
The feeding of PCB is easy the problem si the ink. I suggest that any 
printer that has a printhead with the cartridge is better because if 
something goes wrong it can be replaced...

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> A product that looks like what i have in mind,
> the table is moved, making the modification of the printer a very 
easy 
> task.
> I do not think we can get any more information on the printer, 
global 
> sources supplyers
> are not cooperative if you don't buy a huge number (though they 
send me a 
> magazine
> every few weeks - dunno why...)
> the thing to note is that it can use solvent and water based:
> 
<http://www.globalsources.com/am/article_id/9000000042033/page/showart
icle?action=GetArticle>
> 
> 
> I think water based is not much good because it won't dry on metal.
> on the other hand acrylic paint would dry and would be water based,
> and acts as a resist.
> 
> 
> My best bet is still with the solvent type ink, like used by 
permanent
> markers.
> Someone here wrote "a collegue put a inkjet head on a flatbed and 
printed
> permanent marker ink (1:1 diluted with alcohol) and it worked".
> he wrote the marker was the same as they used to touchup boards.
> You can for sure find it in the archives.
> 
> It is also quite well possible that the acrylic paint would work 
with 
> piezo,
> it did NOT work with bubblejet, which is obvious as the 
heat "boiling" the 
> water
> will make it clog terribly (which it did).
> 
> I guess i MUST try it, it would be a bit easier than TT and the 
quality 
> would be better.
> Also i could possibly prevent buying a new laser (for resolution). 
Inkjet 

> printers
> are MUCH cheaper.
> 
> 
> ST

--- mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> I'will remind that my experience with floor wax
> killed few printers. 

Floor wax is water based and further, quickly builds
up a film inside the print head that clogs it up. Most
Piezo print heads are not compatible with water or
substances that conduct. I'll bet if you get your
hands on the spec sheet for inks used in Piezo head
printers, the  ink when in liquid form is
non-conductive and does not build up inside the print
head. 

Another alternative piezo style printers are use wax
that is melted and then deposited onto paper. Examples
of this printer include the Tektronix Phazer series of
printers.

Regards

Marvin Dickens 

=====
Registered Linux User No. 80253
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http://www.linuxcounter.org


	
		
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On Sun, 09 May 2004 12:26:10 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Stefan, Not to disagree with you, but I recently experimented with
> Epson 1520 which isa piezo printer and the printer doesn't like
> anything different than original Epson printer. After using an
> aftermarket ink the printer died and the printhead smoked (!)
>
> I'will remind that my experience with floor wax killed few printers.
> The feeding of PCB is easy the problem si the ink. I suggest that any
> printer that has a printhead with the cartridge is better because if
> something goes wrong it can be replaced...
>
> Mike
>
I agree the problem is the ink.

I have found no piezo printer that uses cartridges.

The 1520 seems pretty new? i hope the older 400/600/800 stylus color will
have a more basic head and be easier to work with.
there are differences in printhead construction, not all have exposed
electric parts.
(i guess your printer didn't like conductivity).

thanks

st

> substances that conduct. I'll bet if you get your
> hands on the spec sheet for inks used in Piezo head
> printers, the  ink when in liquid form is
> non-conductive and does not build up inside the print
> head.


Where to find data on epson(and other) heads and inks?

ST

Inkjets that used oil-based inks first began to appear on the scene in 
1997 as printer manufacturers began to seek ways to boost throughput 
speeds for inkjet printers. After a new generation of high-speed piezo 
printheads shorted out when exposed to water-based inks, printer OEMs 
began to investigate alternatives to water. Oil-based inks were appealing 
because they provided an easy way to build inkjet printers that could 
output graphics at higher rates of speed.

<http://www.bigpicture.net/index.php3?openchan=yes&channelnum=2&content=2173&displaynow=yes>

st

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gmanca101" <gmanca101@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > Why use oil-inks? Why not use solvent inks?
> > Take the ink for permanent markers known to work with pcbs.
> > Maybe dilute with alcohol.
> > I think the epson are alcohol based??
> 
> The issue here is that I am in the US and cannot find any of the 
> Staedler Refill Stations. Maybe if there was a way to remove the 
ink 
> from the pens themselves? 
> 
> What I am wondering if solvent inks are oil inks? 
> 
> Thanks,
> Genaro M.

Hi Genaro,

machinests use a metal blue paint for marking steel.  Dykem is the 
brand name and it cost less than $10.00 per 0.118 liters.

I was going to offer that in ounces, but I'm not sure if you would 
prefer US ounce, or UK ounces.

I figured tablespoons might work well, but then it could be US 
tablespoons, UK tablespoons or metric tablespoons...

Maybe quarts ?  nope, UK or Anchent Hebrew quarts, German quarts and 
then US dry or US liquid quarts.....

Cups ?  nope,  Canadian cups, US cups and Metric cups....

oh, fudge.

they sell it in Gallon containers.  you gotta figue out if it UK 
liquid or US liquid or US dry.

tru www.use-enco.com   item 825-8320   Dykem   8 ounces, $5.53

here is the manufacturer's site
http://www.americanmarking.com/dykem.htm

Dave

--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Where to find data on epson(and other) heads and
> inks?

The makers of inks will probably give you the
specifications of thier various inks if you ask for
them: They want to sell ink and the competition is
fearce. OTOH, I bet the mfg's of heads are not going
to come off meaningful specifications. They will claim
trade secrets/competitive info and ect...


Regards

Marvin Dickens

=====
Registered Linux User No. 80253
If you use linux, get counted at: 
http://www.linuxcounter.org


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover

Quite possible. I am using this opportunity to warn averybody against 
buying an Epson 1520. It is a royal junk printer that has problems 
printing on paper. Piece of $it if you ask me. I will also advise 
everybody against buying a bulk feed system and I will advice against 
morons like owners of www.posjet.com who claim an imagesetter 
quality. Their ink dries out in the bottle. PCB printing is a nirvana 
for a hobby market. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Sun, 09 May 2004 12:26:10 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> 
> > Stefan, Not to disagree with you, but I recently experimented with
> > Epson 1520 which isa piezo printer and the printer doesn't like
> > anything different than original Epson printer. After using an
> > aftermarket ink the printer died and the printhead smoked (!)
> >
> > I'will remind that my experience with floor wax killed few 
printers.
> > The feeding of PCB is easy the problem si the ink. I suggest that 
any
> > printer that has a printhead with the cartridge is better because 
if
> > something goes wrong it can be replaced...
> >
> > Mike
> >
> I agree the problem is the ink.
> 
> I have found no piezo printer that uses cartridges.
> 
> The 1520 seems pretty new? i hope the older 400/600/800 stylus 
color will
> have a more basic head and be easier to work with.
> there are differences in printhead construction, not all have 
exposed

> electric parts.
> (i guess your printer didn't like conductivity).
> 
> thanks
> 
> st

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Stefan, Not to disagree with you, but I recently experimented with 
> Epson 1520 which isa piezo printer and the printer doesn't like 
> anything different than original Epson printer. After using an 
> aftermarket ink the printer died and the printhead smoked (!)

If the printhead blew magic smoke, that is going to be due to ink
leaking into the electronics.

I run a 3rd party pigmented ink in a 1520 for Tshirt imprinting. Tens
of thousands at least use 3rd party dye and pigmented and dye sub
inkjet inks in Epson printers. They do tend to be touchier with non
dye inks.

Epson printheads are "solvent" but the solvent is alcohol. As
discussed here and on the Epson printers list, one big problem with
other solvents is they may attack other parts of the printhead like
the plastic leading up to the piezo heads.

Steve

> I'will remind that my experience with floor wax killed few printers. 
> The feeding of PCB is easy the problem si the ink. I suggest that any 
> printer that has a printhead with the cartridge is better because if 
> something goes wrong it can be replaced...
> 
> Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> wrote:
> Quite possible. I am using this opportunity to warn averybody against 
> buying an Epson 1520. It is a royal junk printer that has problems 
> printing on paper. Piece of $it if you ask me. I will also advise 
> everybody against buying a bulk feed system and I will advice against 
> morons like owners of www.posjet.com who claim an imagesetter 
> quality. Their ink dries out in the bottle. PCB printing is a nirvana 
> for a hobby market. Mike

The Epson 1520 is an old and discontinued Epson. I have one, got it at
a thrift store for $26. Still going on eBay for around $200, because
it will print 13.6 inches wide and the piezo head can use 3rd party
pigmented and dye sub inks.

The 1520 is a pain. I am using it with a bulk ink system with
pigmented ink, and it is -very- sensistive to the height of ink in the
bottles. No way is it imagesetter quality, I only use it for Tshirt
and other fabric imprinting, I can even print directly on cloth with
it. But I have to keep fiddling with the height of the bottles as it
uses up ink.

If you get a 1520 and intend to use it to try printing on PCBs, don't.
Put it up on eBay and use the money to buy some old cheaper letter
size Epson printers and play with those. If you do a good auction,
you'll get well over $100 for a 1520.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
> Epson printheads are "solvent" but the solvent is alcohol. As
> discussed here and on the Epson printers list, one big problem with
> other solvents is they may attack other parts of the printhead like
> the plastic leading up to the piezo heads.

Steve,

I found out that Sharpie pens are alcohol-based, however, these pens 
are susceptable to drying out without the cap. Would the print sponge 
pad be enough of a "cap" to prevent this? 

Secondly, anyone here happen to know the compoistion of Staedtler Red 
Lumocolor Permanent Pens? I understand that they are dry-proof, but I 
wonder what is based of.

Hello,

Has anyone tried shellac? It is soluble in alcohol, in fact that's 
what the dykem Dave mentioned is.

But I wouldn't use dykem as the pigments may create a problem. 
Shellac is waterproof, and should make an excellent resist. It is 
sold in different grades depending upon the level of refinement. 
Ultra blonde is what you would want to use for this purpose, IMO.

The better grades are sold as flakes which are dissolved in alcohol.
You can mix it thick or thin, and woodworking stores as well as home 
depot carry it. Get denatured alcohol at the same time.

It might even work in the thermal print heads.

BTW, it dries very fast.

I bet it will work in the print heads...

Ballendo



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
wrote:
> > Stefan, Not to disagree with you, but I recently experimented 
with 
> > Epson 1520 which isa piezo printer and the printer doesn't like 
> > anything different than original Epson printer. After using an 
> > aftermarket ink the printer died and the printhead smoked (!)
> 
> If the printhead blew magic smoke, that is going to be due to ink
> leaking into the electronics.
> 
> I run a 3rd party pigmented ink in a 1520 for Tshirt imprinting. 
Tens
> of thousands at least use 3rd party dye and pigmented and dye sub
> inkjet inks in Epson printers. They do tend to be touchier with non
> dye inks.
> 
> Epson printheads are "solvent" but the solvent is alcohol. As
> discussed here and on the Epson printers list, one big problem with
> other solvents is they may attack other parts of the printhead like
> the plastic leading up to the piezo heads.
> 
> Steve
> 
> > I'will remind that my experience with floor wax killed few 
printers. 
> > The feeding of PCB is easy the problem si the ink. I suggest that 
any 
> > printer that has a printhead with the cartridge is better because 
if 

> > something goes wrong it can be replaced...
> > 
> > Mike

> I found out that Sharpie pens are alcohol-based, however, these pens
> are susceptable to drying out without the cap. Would the print sponge
> pad be enough of a "cap" to prevent this?

most likely .... perhaps ;-)
would be a good idea to use some additional means of preventing drying.
the staedtler pens are "dry proof" meaning as long as some liquid
ink is in the pen the tip won't dry. it will thicken a bit. they say 2 
weeks
open i think and it still must go.

>
> Secondly, anyone here happen to know the compoistion of Staedtler Red
> Lumocolor Permanent Pens? I understand that they are dry-proof, but I
> wonder what is based of.


oh, yes, i see you already understand they are dry proof... sorry for that.

I think it is alcohol based. it is solved by alcohol, and it is no stronger
solvent (plastic survives). It also has a light alcohol smell.

the labels on the refill are highly flammable and irritant.
Alcohol does not carry irritant normally, so it could be another solvent.

ST

Dave,

I used that method with scratch and etch consept developed by Jojn 
Kleinbauer from www.kleinbauer.com

I used that paint in a spray can and I noticed that it is etch 
resistant... to a degree. If left for too long my HCl based solved 
lifted the paint but for regular times it etched nicely.  Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gmanca101" <gmanca101@y...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
> > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > > Why use oil-inks? Why not use solvent inks?
> > > Take the ink for permanent markers known to work with pcbs.
> > > Maybe dilute with alcohol.
> > > I think the epson are alcohol based??
> > 
> > The issue here is that I am in the US and cannot find any of the 
> > Staedler Refill Stations. Maybe if there was a way to remove the 
> ink 
> > from the pens themselves? 
> > 
> > What I am wondering if solvent inks are oil inks? 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Genaro M.
> 
> Hi Genaro,
> 
> machinests use a metal blue paint for marking steel.  Dykem is the 
> brand name and it cost less than $10.00 per 0.118 liters.
> 
> I was going to offer that in ounces, but I'm not sure if you would 
> prefer US ounce, or UK ounces.
> 
> I figured tablespoons might work well, but then it could be US 
> tablespoons, UK tablespoons or metric tablespoons...
> 
> Maybe quarts ?  nope, UK or Anchent Hebrew quarts, German quarts 
and 

> then US dry or US liquid quarts.....
> 
> Cups ?  nope,  Canadian cups, US cups and Metric cups....
> 
> oh, fudge.
> 
> they sell it in Gallon containers.  you gotta figue out if it UK 
> liquid or US liquid or US dry.
> 
> tru www.use-enco.com   item 825-8320   Dykem   8 ounces, $5.53
> 
> here is the manufacturer's site
> http://www.americanmarking.com/dykem.htm
> 
> Dave

Hi ! I read from an old issue of radio electronics one of the ways they used shellac in preparing PCB's. They first dyed the stuff so that it would be visible when applied. Then, they loaded the thing into a technical drawing pen and used that to directly apply the shellac as an etch resist onto the blank pcb. 

Jobet

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ballendo 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:48 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Piezo Print Heads and Oil Based Inks


  Hello,

  Has anyone tried shellac? It is soluble in alcohol, in fact that's 
  what the dykem Dave mentioned is.

  But I wouldn't use dykem as the pigments may create a problem. 
  Shellac is waterproof, and should make an excellent resist. It is 
  sold in different grades depending upon the level of refinement. 
  Ultra blonde is what you would want to use for this purpose, IMO.

  The better grades are sold as flakes which are dissolved in alcohol.
  You can mix it thick or thin, and woodworking stores as well as home 
  depot carry it. Get denatured alcohol at the same time.

  It might even work in the thermal print heads.

  BTW, it dries very fast.

  I bet it will work in the print heads...

  Ballendo



  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
  wrote:
  > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...> 
  wrote:
  > > Stefan, Not to disagree with you, but I recently experimented 
  with 
  > > Epson 1520 which isa piezo printer and the printer doesn't like 
  > > anything different than original Epson printer. After using an 
  > > aftermarket ink the printer died and the printhead smoked (!)
  > 
  > If the printhead blew magic smoke, that is going to be due to ink
  > leaking into the electronics.
  > 
  > I run a 3rd party pigmented ink in a 1520 for Tshirt imprinting. 
  Tens
  > of thousands at least use 3rd party dye and pigmented and dye sub
  > inkjet inks in Epson printers. They do tend to be touchier with non
  > dye inks.
  > 
  > Epson printheads are "solvent" but the solvent is alcohol. As
  > discussed here and on the Epson printers list, one big problem with
  > other solvents is they may attack other parts of the printhead like
  > the plastic leading up to the piezo heads.
  > 
  > Steve
  > 
  > > I'will remind that my experience with floor wax killed few 
  printers. 
  > > The feeding of PCB is easy the problem si the ink. I suggest that 
  any 
  > > printer that has a printhead with the cartridge is better because 
  if 
  > > something goes wrong it can be replaced...
  > > 
  > > Mike



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 10 May 2004 22:35:29 +0800, Jobet Claudio 
<jobetclaudio@...> wrote:

> Hi ! I read from an old issue of radio electronics one of the ways they 
> used shellac in preparing PCB's. They first dyed the stuff so that it 
> would be visible when applied. Then, they loaded the thing into a 
> technical drawing pen and used that to directly apply the shellac as an 
> etch resist onto the blank pcb.
>
> Jobet


I'm suspicious towards shellac.
I admit i have never seen it in solved state, but it somehow is linked
to a "sticky" image.
Please keep in mind that in the past it was a much more popular stuff than 
it
is today, maybe because there was no better ink around. After all we 
*have* resist
pens now, and do not longer fill schellac into drawing pens.

I tried colophony solved in alcohol in a plotter pen once. sticky mess.
not sure if schellac is that sticky or not.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Jobet Claudio" <jobetclaudio@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Piezo Print Heads and Oil Based Inks


> Hi ! I read from an old issue of radio electronics one of the ways they
used shellac in preparing PCB's. They first dyed the stuff so that it would
be visible when applied. Then, they loaded the thing into a technical
drawing pen and used that to directly apply the shellac as an etch resist
onto the blank pcb.

Nail varnish is supposed to work quite well, also.

Leon

> Nail varnish is supposed to work quite well, also.
>
> Leon

yes, to put on your nails maybe. ( ;-) )
And of course you can smear it on a pcb and then etch it.

But this does not mean you can use it in an inkjet.

You can probably use butter or tar to make a pcb, but not with a inkjet.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Piezo Print Heads and Oil Based Inks


> On Mon, 10 May 2004 22:35:29 +0800, Jobet Claudio
> <jobetclaudio@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi ! I read from an old issue of radio electronics one of the ways they
> > used shellac in preparing PCB's. They first dyed the stuff so that it
> > would be visible when applied. Then, they loaded the thing into a
> > technical drawing pen and used that to directly apply the shellac as an
> > etch resist onto the blank pcb.
> >
> > Jobet
>
>
> I'm suspicious towards shellac.
> I admit i have never seen it in solved state, but it somehow is linked
> to a "sticky" image.
> Please keep in mind that in the past it was a much more popular stuff than
> it
> is today, maybe because there was no better ink around. After all we
> *have* resist
> pens now, and do not longer fill schellac into drawing pens.
>
> I tried colophony solved in alcohol in a plotter pen once. sticky mess.
> not sure if schellac is that sticky or not.

Shellac should be OK, it's quite hard when it dries. It was used for
varnishing wood a long time ago, and for 'french polishing'.

Leon

> Shellac should be OK, it's quite hard when it dries. It was used for
> varnishing wood a long time ago, and for 'french polishing'.
>
> Leon
>

yes, but is it sticky when solved / half drying?

colophony is also hard when dry.

ST

What is better for smd (de-)soldering?

solder tweezers or hot air pencil?

As the last hot air pencil attempt failed i now need to build a better
one (with a workig heater) or i could build solder tweezers.

I want to be able to exchange smd parts.

I have worked with neither so i hope to find what is better...

thanks

ST

EPSON MSDS:

<http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/msds/s020108.pdf>
<http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/msds/s191089.pdf>
<http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/msds/s020089.pdf>

The above are for the COLOR 800.
But you can get them all at epson support page (sorry no link possible).
I have looked at a few and they are all the same.

I't doesn't say much, but it DOES say it is aqueous ink.

I still think alcohol solved ink may work quite well.

ST

Is it really a question of either?  each has their appropriate 
applications.  I think the tweezers are good for 1206/805/603 but not 
so good for soics and bigger.  Hot air with the appropriate nozzle 
can do just about anything soic and up.  


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> What is better for smd (de-)soldering?
> 
> solder tweezers or hot air pencil?
> 
> As the last hot air pencil attempt failed i now need to build a 
better

> one (with a workig heater) or i could build solder tweezers.
> 
> I want to be able to exchange smd parts.
> 
> I have worked with neither so i hope to find what is better...
> 
> thanks
> 
> ST

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:18:36 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

> Is it really a question of either?  each has their appropriate
> applications.  I think the tweezers are good for 1206/805/603 but not
> so good for soics and bigger.  Hot air with the appropriate nozzle
> can do just about anything soic and up.
>

talking only about bipedals here.

(I don't think a small hot air pencil is good for ICs? enough volume?
i thought i will continue to use the hot air gun for the ICs, but it is 
clumsy
for the tiny ones...)

it is a question of "i have only time to build one - which one is better".

I hope to use the same compressor as i use for the solder paste dispenser,
so the air source would have a nice regulator. I also plan to use
the other side of the compressor for a vacuum (for now only manual) PnP.
I tried to use it as a "solder sucker" already, and it works.


By the way, another question, why is there no aluminium used for 
desoldering tips?
is it not making enogh contact to heat the joint? it would not be consumed
like copper and those rivets are just the right size... (good thing there 
are
ones of copper too... exchangeable and VERY cheap solder sucker tips: pop 
rivets.)

Well, i will see if i can make a appropriate heater for the hot-air...


ST

I see a lot of hakko 850b clones on ebay for 130-160.  does anyone 
have this station?  Is this a reasonably good product?  any 
experieces with it would be appreciated.

Phil

> I see a lot of hakko 850b clones on ebay for 130-160.  does anyone
> have this station?  Is this a reasonably good product?  any
> experieces with it would be appreciated.

    I got one here in Brazil - works flawlessly. I have a Hakko at work and
a Sunkko 850A at home.


---
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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> I see a lot of hakko 850b clones on ebay for 130-160.  does anyone 
> have this station?  Is this a reasonably good product?  any 
> experieces with it would be appreciated.
> 
> Phil

I've got a Atten 850 dropped shipped direct from china.  Works 
great.  You can get these in the states now fairly easy for the same 
price (~$150)...  Circuit specialists carries them now.


-Dal

--- Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:
> I see a lot of hakko 850b clones on ebay for
> 130-160.  does anyone have this station? 

If you can find a Pace that was made in the last 10
years, buy it. No other rework station even comes
close to the over all dependability or ease of
reproducable results that a Pace gives. 

Regards

Marvin Dickens  

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If all you're changing is caps and resistors you can do it with a plain soldering iron easily enough.  You can remove sot-23 parts too but it's a little trickier.
  
Paul Davs

On Tue, 11 May 2004 13:34:30 +0200, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> What is better for smd (de-)soldering?
>
>
> solder tweezers or hot air pencil?
>
>
> As the last hot air pencil attempt failed i now need to build a
> better one (with a workig heater) or i could build solder tweezers.
>
> I want to be able to exchange smd parts.
>
>
> I have worked with neither so i hope to find what is better...
>
>
> thanks
>
>
> ST

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:29:59 -0600, Paul Davis <paul_davis@...> wrote:

> If all you're changing is caps and resistors you can do it with a plain 
> soldering iron easily enough. \ufffdYou can remove sot-23 parts too but it's 
> a little trickier.
> \ufffd\ufffd
> Paul Davs
> \ufffd\ufffd

How do you do that? without ripping off the contacts?

ST

You just heat one side up until the solder melts, then heat the other side but leave the heat on for an extra half second then heat the other pad and push of the part with the iron.  The important thing is to have a clean iron tip and to get as much of the iron on the pad as possible so that you get good heat transfer.  Until you get skilled at it you may have to move the iron from pad to pad a few extra times. if you have problems just add some extra solder to one side as it'll help to contain the heat longer.  it's also easier with 60/40 rather that 63/37 solder.   You won't rip contacts as long as both sides are still liquid. just don't force it.  done right the part will slide right off.

For the sot-23 you can remove the solder form the single pin and then heat and lift the part just enough so that that pin is no longer connected.  it's then easy to remove the other two pins.

Paul Davis

On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:01:46 +0200, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:29:59 -0600, Paul Davis <paul_davis@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>> If all you're changing is caps and resistors you can do it with a
>> plain soldering iron easily enough.  You can remove sot-23 parts
>> too but it's a little trickier.    Paul Davs
>>
>
> How do you do that? without ripping off the contacts?
>
>
> ST
>
>
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> ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
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>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
> files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs Yahoo! Groups
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>
>

On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:35:06 -0600, Paul Davis <paul_davis@...> wrote:

> You just heat one side up until the solder melts, then heat the other 
> side but leave the heat on for an extra half second then heat the other 
> pad and push of the part with the iron.  The important thing is to have 
> a clean iron tip and to get as much of the iron on the pad as possible 
> so that you get good heat transfer.  Until you get skilled at it you may 
> have to move the iron from pad to pad a few extra times. if you have 
> problems just add some extra solder to one side as it'll help to contain 
> the heat longer.  it's also easier with 60/40 rather that 63/37 
> solder.   You won't rip contacts as long as both sides are still liquid. 
> just don't force it.  done right the part will slide right off.
>

Ok that's how i do it all the time... didn't love it too much.
(there is no secret trick)

thanks

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "mpdickens" <md30022@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Hot stations: Hakko and clones...


>
> --- Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:
> > I see a lot of hakko 850b clones on ebay for
> > 130-160.  does anyone have this station?
>
> If you can find a Pace that was made in the last 10
> years, buy it. No other rework station even comes
> close to the over all dependability or ease of
> reproducable results that a Pace gives.

Metcal equipment is much better, IMHO. It's very expensive new, but often
available at reasonable prices on eBay.

Leon

--- Leon Heller <leon_heller@...> wrote:

> Metcal equipment is much better, IMHO. It's very
> expensive new, but often
> available at reasonable prices on eBay.

Hello Leon!

I've had poor experiences with metcal equipment. When
it works, it works well, but it does not hold up as
well as pace. The metcal stuff has very modern
ergonomics. In fact, the ergonomics are better than
than any other equipment available. However, it's not
as well made as pace and cannot hold up in an
industrial environment (Which is why you rarely see it
in production centers that really turn out a lot of
work...).

As far as a feature for feature comparision, metcal
offers everything that pace does (And visa versa), but
the quality is just not there with the metcal gear and
when it fails, your done for the day (Which we cannot
afford). FWIW, we have 5 pace stations and we have
never had a station fail. Now, thats not to say we
have not had minor failures like a solder pin breaking
after 5 to 7 years of being on for 12 hours a day, but
nothing major: Nothing expensive or anything that
would shut us down for a day. I cannot say the same
for the metcal units we have used (And subsequently
gotten rid of).

Now, pace has been selling rework stations for 30
years. They have a HUGE install base. Metcal has been
in business for 10 to 15 years (I think...). Even so,
for every 30 metcal units you see on ebay, your lucky
if you see one pace unit. Everybody that owns a pace
keeps it forever or until it dies from old age. The
same thing can be said gear made by ERSA (Out of
Germany. They invented and patented the first
soldering iron in the 1920's). Everybody that owns an
ERSA keeps it forever.

My two cents.

Best 

Marvin 

=====
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> keeps it forever or until it dies from old age. The
> same thing can be said gear made by ERSA (Out of
> Germany. They invented and patented the first
> soldering iron in the 1920's). Everybody that owns an
> ERSA keeps it forever.
>
Well, then i better never throw it away...

I though we are talking about some "does the work on it's own" magic
soldering station. If you say the ersa tools are good then i'm lucky...

By the way, many ERSA stations use the heater as sensing thermistor.
Not sure if the very last generation does.
You can buy the 60W 24V irons for 50 eur, making the control electronics 
isn't
hard...

ST

> My two cents.
>
> Best
>
> Marvin
>
> =====
> Registered Linux User No. 80253
> If you use linux, get counted at:
> http://www.linuxcounter.org
>
>
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________
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> Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2'
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>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Pace vs Metcal

My experience is just the opposite, however it is dated a few years.. We got
rid of all the Pace equipment and switched to Metcal. We had way too many
breakdowns with Pace. My gut feel says that most outfits go with Pace as its
cheaper upfront, rather than Metcal, but in the long term scheme of things,
the Metcal was cheaper and was much less of a hassle, especially when you
don't have the staffing to repair and fiddle with the Pace units.

However.... The newer Pace equipment is still much cheaper than Metcal, and
according to a friend of mine, their quality has improved multifold. He
bought a couple of them last year and was pretty impressed. As such, he just
bought 25 new Pace rework stations. If he is still happy with them in
another year, looks like I'll have to change too. Those Metcal rework tips
at $50-$75 each do get spendy.... He told me the Pace ones were about half.
I sure hope they work out well... that would be a big savings!!!

Ron

bought a stylus pro.

Will take a few days until i have it, then i let you know what it does.


is it safe to use alcohol to clean the head?
I have no windex and the ammonia i have was no much good with the hp 
printer.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> bought a stylus pro.
> 
> Will take a few days until i have it, then i let you know what it does.
> 
> 
> is it safe to use alcohol to clean the head?
> I have no windex and the ammonia i have was no much good with the hp 
> printer.

Isopropyl is safe. But not very effective. Mix nonsudsing household
ammonia half and half with 50% isopropyl alcohol. Cuts through just
about any ink.

Don't leave it in the printer, though, as ammonia eats metal for dinner.

Steve