Homebrew PCBs

Hi John, Dave,

I finally found the URL for TCi.  There are some additional EMP's there,
if you are interested.  

I emailed Bruno about the Gerber header, and asked if a later version
will support INCHES.  We'll see if he cares to reply (I used babelfish
to translate to French), as well as sending English.

I've found TCI quite easy to use, after I got past the French (not
hard).  

With the addition of an additional parser for the header, I've been able
to read the RS-274X files generated, and convert them to Gcode.  I'm
still working on the algorithms, but it IS a nice way to generate simple
board layouts!

Are others interested in this?  Will work with Eagle too, Although Eagle
is a bear to learn, IMO.  I don't expect to do complicated designs, but
as long as one can "finish them up" in CAD (by importing the Gcode),
then it should suit my needs.

What have you done with TCI?  I thought I'd post a simple trace from
TCI, and it's Gcode result.

	http://b.urbani.free.fr/index.htm

Alan  KM6VV

Hi Alan, 
I'm definitely interested in what your program can output. As you 
know I'm working on the same algorithm, so any development in that 
area is beyond cool. There aren't many people on earth that are 
working on this, so it is nice to meet a fellow explorer.

I'll try to upload a pic of my input and output in the next few days.

I tried viewing the file you uploaded, but I couldn't get to it.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John, Dave,
> 
> I finally found the URL for TCi.  There are some additional EMP's 
there,
> if you are interested.  
> 
> I emailed Bruno about the Gerber header, and asked if a later 
version
> will support INCHES.  We'll see if he cares to reply (I used 
babelfish
> to translate to French), as well as sending English.
> 
> I've found TCI quite easy to use, after I got past the French (not
> hard).  
> 
> With the addition of an additional parser for the header, I've been 
able
> to read the RS-274X files generated, and convert them to Gcode.  I'm
> still working on the algorithms, but it IS a nice way to generate 
simple
> board layouts!
> 
> Are others interested in this?  Will work with Eagle too, Although 
Eagle
> is a bear to learn, IMO.  I don't expect to do complicated designs, 
but

> as long as one can "finish them up" in CAD (by importing the Gcode),
> then it should suit my needs.
> 
> What have you done with TCI?  I thought I'd post a simple trace from
> TCI, and it's Gcode result.
> 
> 	http://b.urbani.free.fr/index.htm
> 
> Alan  KM6VV

Hi Alan,
        I am hoping my next PCs are less complicated. I spent
days getting my DXF file just right. I tried every program there
is. The TCI program is very easy to use. Hopefully it will be
made in inches.

       Have you looked at Target?

http://www.ibfriedrich.com/

       I got several programs to work on simple boards. I found
drawing in DXF lets me tweek pads and traces at will. If I could
find a simple way to get isolation and efficiency I would
switch. Right now I have burned out doing my last board. The
boards keep getting larger and larger. I have to do all kinds of
tricks in order to mill a board with only one bit.

                                       John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John, Dave,
> 
> I finally found the URL for TCi.  There are some additional EMP's 
there,
> if you are interested.  
> 
> I emailed Bruno about the Gerber header, and asked if a later 
version
> will support INCHES.  We'll see if he cares to reply (I used 
babelfish
> to translate to French), as well as sending English.
> 
> I've found TCI quite easy to use, after I got past the French (not
> hard).  
> 
> With the addition of an additional parser for the header, I've been 
able
> to read the RS-274X files generated, and convert them to Gcode.  I'm
> still working on the algorithms, but it IS a nice way to generate 
simple
> board layouts!
> 
> Are others interested in this?  Will work with Eagle too, Although 
Eagle
> is a bear to learn, IMO.  I don't expect to do complicated designs, 
but

> as long as one can "finish them up" in CAD (by importing the Gcode),
> then it should suit my needs.
> 
> What have you done with TCI?  I thought I'd post a simple trace from
> TCI, and it's Gcode result.
> 
> 	http://b.urbani.free.fr/index.htm
> 
> Alan  KM6VV

Hi Dave,

Which file did you try to get?  I just tried the CNC, worked OK.  Files
are under files/TCI.  Sometimes the link on the notice gets cutoff, and
you have to manually "paste it together".  I'm still going through
Vector CAD/CAM for generating Gcode from PLC files, but if I can do the
PLC's, the Gcode is a no-brainer.

circle(  2.5400, 2.5400, 0.0000, 1.27350000, 1, 4.71238898, 1.04561007,
0.0000, 0.0000);
line(  3.1785,   3.6419,   0.0000,   3.1785,   7.7881,   0.0000);

N1050 G03 X0.1251 Y0.1434 I0.0000 J0.0501
N1060 G01 X0.1251 Y0.3066

I don't think I've got the right corresponding lines, but you get the
picture.  Actually I just realized it, but the CNC file I uploaded was
output by Vector CAD/CAM in INCHES!  So IT DID the MM->INCH conversion
for me (I think)!   Seems the NC side of Vector has it's own inch/mm
parm (from the CAD side)!  Yeah, FlashCut only likes it if I make it a
"G20" (inch)!  Somehow, the I's and J's don't scale simply between
in/mm's!  (Same problem I had in my code).

I'd like to see what you're up to.  I had to make a few changes to get
the apertures from the header, but after I scaled them to integers (for
array storage), and figured out MM's, it worked (as well as the INCH
hand-coded RS-274D's).  If I continue to use TCI, I think I'll through
in an MM->inch conversion!

I found out Gerber files have a polygon pad, as well as circular and
rectangular.  Also an 'O' (OBROUND), which is probably an ellipse (or a
"stretched" circle?  That's what I'm doing).  Also a 'S', which I have
no idea what it is.  

I did notice that TCI leaves off the '%' in front of some parms, MOMM,
OFA0B0 and FSLAX, possibly others.  Not hard to edit the file.  That,
and G04's are used for comments (I handled that one)!

Alan  KM6VV


ph4appl wrote:

> 
> Hi Alan,
> I'm definitely interested in what your program can output. As you
> know I'm working on the same algorithm, so any development in that
> area is beyond cool. There aren't many people on earth that are
> working on this, so it is nice to meet a fellow explorer.
> 
> I'll try to upload a pic of my input and output in the next few days.
> 
> I tried viewing the file you uploaded, but I couldn't get to it.
> 
> Dave
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John, Dave,
> >
> > I finally found the URL for TCi.  There are some additional EMP's
> there,
> > if you are interested.
> >
> > I emailed Bruno about the Gerber header, and asked if a later
> version
> > will support INCHES.  We'll see if he cares to reply (I used
> babelfish
> > to translate to French), as well as sending English.
> >
> > I've found TCI quite easy to use, after I got past the French (not
> > hard).
> >
> > With the addition of an additional parser for the header, I've been
> able
> > to read the RS-274X files generated, and convert them to Gcode.  I'm
> > still working on the algorithms, but it IS a nice way to generate
> simple
> > board layouts!
> >
> > Are others interested in this?  Will work with Eagle too, Although
> Eagle
> > is a bear to learn, IMO.  I don't expect to do complicated designs,
> but
> > as long as one can "finish them up" in CAD (by importing the Gcode),
> > then it should suit my needs.
> >
> > What have you done with TCI?  I thought I'd post a simple trace from
> > TCI, and it's Gcode result.
> >
> >       http://b.urbani.free.fr/index.htm
> >
> > Alan  KM6VV
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi John,

No, I hadn't seen target.  Similar to Eagle?  100 pins limit, might be a
little tight.  I'm thinking that I will probably upgrade on Eagle, IF I
can ever get time to learn it!

Inches WOULD be easier!  I can get the MM/IN translation done by Vector
CAD/CAM, and I'm thinking I can put a parm in my program to do it for
me.  

What sort of board did you do in TCI?  Which output did you use?  I've
posted a simple TCI file of a trace with it's corresponding (generated)
CNC file.

Alan  KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

> 
> Hi Alan,
>         I am hoping my next PCs are less complicated. I spent
> days getting my DXF file just right. I tried every program there
> is. The TCI program is very easy to use. Hopefully it will be
> made in inches.
> 
>        Have you looked at Target?
> 
> http://www.ibfriedrich.com/
> 
>        I got several programs to work on simple boards. I found
> drawing in DXF lets me tweek pads and traces at will. If I could
> find a simple way to get isolation and efficiency I would
> switch. Right now I have burned out doing my last board. The
> boards keep getting larger and larger. I have to do all kinds of
> tricks in order to mill a board with only one bit.
> 
>                                        John
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John, Dave,
> >
> > I finally found the URL for TCi.  There are some additional EMP's
> there,
> > if you are interested.
> >
> > I emailed Bruno about the Gerber header, and asked if a later
> version
> > will support INCHES.  We'll see if he cares to reply (I used
> babelfish
> > to translate to French), as well as sending English.
> >
> > I've found TCI quite easy to use, after I got past the French (not
> > hard).
> >
> > With the addition of an additional parser for the header, I've been
> able
> > to read the RS-274X files generated, and convert them to Gcode.  I'm
> > still working on the algorithms, but it IS a nice way to generate
> simple
> > board layouts!
> >
> > Are others interested in this?  Will work with Eagle too, Although
> Eagle
> > is a bear to learn, IMO.  I don't expect to do complicated designs,
> but
> > as long as one can "finish them up" in CAD (by importing the Gcode),
> > then it should suit my needs.
> >
> > What have you done with TCI?  I thought I'd post a simple trace from
> > TCI, and it's Gcode result.
> >
> >       http://b.urbani.free.fr/index.htm
> >
> > Alan  KM6VV

Hi Alan,
        After I made a test board. I then saved it to a directory. 
Then I found when I clicked on Gerber a set of Gerber files
appeared in that directory. I was then able to import one of them
into KCam.  In KCam I might be able to rescale the drawing
to inches. If I get time I will give it a shot.

                                      John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> No, I hadn't seen target.  Similar to Eagle?  100 pins limit, might 
be a
> little tight.  I'm thinking that I will probably upgrade on Eagle, 
IF I
> can ever get time to learn it!
> 
> Inches WOULD be easier!  I can get the MM/IN translation done by 
Vector
> CAD/CAM, and I'm thinking I can put a parm in my program to do it 
for
> me.  
> 
> What sort of board did you do in TCI?  Which output did you use?  
I've
> posted a simple TCI file of a trace with it's corresponding 
(generated)
> CNC file.
> 
> Alan  KM6VV
> 
> 
> crankorgan wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Alan,
> >         I am hoping my next PCs are less complicated. I spent
> > days getting my DXF file just right. I tried every program there
> > is. The TCI program is very easy to use. Hopefully it will be
> > made in inches.
> > 
> >        Have you looked at Target?
> > 
> > http://www.ibfriedrich.com/
> > 
> >        I got several programs to work on simple boards. I found
> > drawing in DXF lets me tweek pads and traces at will. If I could
> > find a simple way to get isolation and efficiency I would
> > switch. Right now I have burned out doing my last board. The
> > boards keep getting larger and larger. I have to do all kinds of
> > tricks in order to mill a board with only one bit.
> > 
> >                                        John
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
wrote:
> > > Hi John, Dave,
> > >
> > > I finally found the URL for TCi.  There are some additional 
EMP's
> > there,
> > > if you are interested.
> > >
> > > I emailed Bruno about the Gerber header, and asked if a later
> > version
> > > will support INCHES.  We'll see if he cares to reply (I used
> > babelfish
> > > to translate to French), as well as sending English.
> > >
> > > I've found TCI quite easy to use, after I got past the French 
(not
> > > hard).
> > >
> > > With the addition of an additional parser for the header, I've 
been
> > able
> > > to read the RS-274X files generated, and convert them to 
Gcode.  I'm
> > > still working on the algorithms, but it IS a nice way to 
generate
> > simple
> > > board layouts!
> > >
> > > Are others interested in this?  Will work with Eagle too, 
Although
> > Eagle
> > > is a bear to learn, IMO.  I don't expect to do complicated 
designs,
> > but
> > > as long as one can "finish them up" in CAD (by importing the 
Gcode),
> > > then it should suit my needs.
> > >
> > > What have you done with TCI?  I thought I'd post a simple trace 
from

> > > TCI, and it's Gcode result.
> > >
> > >       http://b.urbani.free.fr/index.htm
> > >
> > > Alan  KM6VV

Hi John,

KCam!  OK, now I remember you saying you used it.  Can KCam then export
in DXF?  Sounds like a plan.  Let me know how it turns out.  I'd like to
see the results.

Alan  KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

> 
> Hi Alan,
>         After I made a test board. I then saved it to a directory.
> Then I found when I clicked on Gerber a set of Gerber files
> appeared in that directory. I was then able to import one of them
> into KCam.  In KCam I might be able to rescale the drawing
> to inches. If I get time I will give it a shot.
> 
>                                       John
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > No, I hadn't seen target.  Similar to Eagle?  100 pins limit, might
> be a
> > little tight.  I'm thinking that I will probably upgrade on Eagle,
> IF I
> > can ever get time to learn it!
> >
> > Inches WOULD be easier!  I can get the MM/IN translation done by
> Vector
> > CAD/CAM, and I'm thinking I can put a parm in my program to do it
> for
> > me.
> >
> > What sort of board did you do in TCI?  Which output did you use?
> I've
> > posted a simple TCI file of a trace with it's corresponding
> (generated)
> > CNC file.
> >
> > Alan  KM6VV                             John

Hi Alan,
        I turned a trace into a ruler at the bottom
of the drawing. This way I could figure out what scaling
to use. I found the KCam left out some traces. So much for
that idea. This works with that, but it don't work with
this!  KCam only imports and it saves GCode.  I just
use an old version to plot and scale my DXF. I then save
them as GCode. Works great!  I wish somebody would make
a simple drawing program that saves in GCode.

                                       John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> KCam!  OK, now I remember you saying you used it.  Can KCam then 
export
> in DXF?  Sounds like a plan.  Let me know how it turns out.  I'd 
like to
> see the results.
> 
> Alan  KM6VV
> 
> 
> crankorgan wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Alan,
> >         After I made a test board. I then saved it to a directory.
> > Then I found when I clicked on Gerber a set of Gerber files
> > appeared in that directory. I was then able to import one of them
> > into KCam.  In KCam I might be able to rescale the drawing
> > to inches. If I get time I will give it a shot.
> > 
> >                                       John
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
wrote:
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > No, I hadn't seen target.  Similar to Eagle?  100 pins limit, 
might
> > be a
> > > little tight.  I'm thinking that I will probably upgrade on 
Eagle,
> > IF I
> > > can ever get time to learn it!
> > >
> > > Inches WOULD be easier!  I can get the MM/IN translation done by
> > Vector
> > > CAD/CAM, and I'm thinking I can put a parm in my program to do 
it

> > for
> > > me.
> > >
> > > What sort of board did you do in TCI?  Which output did you use?
> > I've
> > > posted a simple TCI file of a trace with it's corresponding
> > (generated)
> > > CNC file.
> > >
> > > Alan  KM6VV                             John

John,

>I wish somebody would make
>a simple drawing program that saves in GCode.

We're working on it....

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> Hi Alan,
>         I turned a trace into a ruler at the bottom
> of the drawing. This way I could figure out what scaling
> to use. I found the KCam left out some traces. So much for
> that idea. This works with that, but it don't work with
> this!  KCam only imports and it saves GCode.  I just
> use an old version to plot and scale my DXF. I then save
> them as GCode. Works great!  I wish somebody would make
> a simple drawing program that saves in GCode.
> 
>                                        John
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> > 
> > KCam!  OK, now I remember you saying you used it.  Can KCam then 
> export
> > in DXF?  Sounds like a plan.  Let me know how it turns out.  I'd 
> like to
> > see the results.
> > 
> > Alan  KM6VV
> > 
> > 
> > crankorgan wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi Alan,
> > >         After I made a test board. I then saved it to a 
directory.
> > > Then I found when I clicked on Gerber a set of Gerber files
> > > appeared in that directory. I was then able to import one of 
them
> > > into KCam.  In KCam I might be able to rescale the drawing
> > > to inches. If I get time I will give it a shot.
> > > 
> > >                                       John
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
> wrote:
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > No, I hadn't seen target.  Similar to Eagle?  100 pins limit, 
> might
> > > be a
> > > > little tight.  I'm thinking that I will probably upgrade on 
> Eagle,
> > > IF I
> > > > can ever get time to learn it!
> > > >
> > > > Inches WOULD be easier!  I can get the MM/IN translation done 
by
> > > Vector
> > > > CAD/CAM, and I'm thinking I can put a parm in my program to 
do 
> it
> > > for
> > > > me.
> > > >
> > > > What sort of board did you do in TCI?  Which output did you 
use?

> > > I've
> > > > posted a simple TCI file of a trace with it's corresponding
> > > (generated)
> > > > CNC file.
> > > >
> > > > Alan  KM6VV                             John

Hi John,

I haven't played with KCam enough, I guess.  I gave it a Gerber file,
but I didn't see anything (graphics), just a few random lines. I looked
at the Gcode in the window, but wasn't sure about it.  It had "M3 Z1"
and "M5 Z.5" between EACH cut!  So I can see why you said it takes a LOT
of lines!  I'm probably doing something wrong, or my "fake" RS-274X
header is incorrect.

I have an OLD demo, no Gcode save (I believe).

Alan  KM6VV



crankorgan wrote:

> 
> Hi Alan,
>         I turned a trace into a ruler at the bottom
> of the drawing. This way I could figure out what scaling
> to use. I found the KCam left out some traces. So much for
> that idea. This works with that, but it don't work with
> this!  KCam only imports and it saves GCode.  I just
> use an old version to plot and scale my DXF. I then save
> them as GCode. Works great!  I wish somebody would make
> a simple drawing program that saves in GCode.
> 
>                                        John
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > KCam!  OK, now I remember you saying you used it.  Can KCam then
> export
> > in DXF?  Sounds like a plan.  Let me know how it turns out.  I'd
> like to
> > see the results.
> >
> > Alan  KM6VV

Hi Alan,
        TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has the
pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program to write. I 
think the cost is high because there are so few PCBMills in
use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at last
year when I came out with my plans. Now there are several 
people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to get
in on the fun! 

                                                 John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> I haven't played with KCam enough, I guess.  I gave it a Gerber 
file,
> but I didn't see anything (graphics), just a few random lines. I 
looked
> at the Gcode in the window, but wasn't sure about it.  It had "M3 
Z1"
> and "M5 Z.5" between EACH cut!  So I can see why you said it takes 
a LOT
> of lines!  I'm probably doing something wrong, or my "fake" RS-274X
> header is incorrect.
> 
> I have an OLD demo, no Gcode save (I believe).
> 
> Alan  KM6VV
> 
> 
> 
> crankorgan wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Alan,
> >         I turned a trace into a ruler at the bottom
> > of the drawing. This way I could figure out what scaling
> > to use. I found the KCam left out some traces. So much for
> > that idea. This works with that, but it don't work with
> > this!  KCam only imports and it saves GCode.  I just
> > use an old version to plot and scale my DXF. I then save
> > them as GCode. Works great!  I wish somebody would make
> > a simple drawing program that saves in GCode.
> > 
> >                                        John
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
wrote:

> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > KCam!  OK, now I remember you saying you used it.  Can KCam then
> > export
> > > in DXF?  Sounds like a plan.  Let me know how it turns out.  I'd
> > like to
> > > see the results.
> > >
> > > Alan  KM6VV

Alan,
    Check this one out. The software!


http://www.epsilon-international.com/Products/products.html

                                      John    





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> I haven't played with KCam enough, I guess.  I gave it a Gerber 
file,
> but I didn't see anything (graphics), just a few random lines. I 
looked
> at the Gcode in the window, but wasn't sure about it.  It had "M3 
Z1"
> and "M5 Z.5" between EACH cut!  So I can see why you said it takes 
a LOT
> of lines!  I'm probably doing something wrong, or my "fake" RS-274X
> header is incorrect.
> 
> I have an OLD demo, no Gcode save (I believe).
> 
> Alan  KM6VV
> 
> 
> 
> crankorgan wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Alan,
> >         I turned a trace into a ruler at the bottom
> > of the drawing. This way I could figure out what scaling
> > to use. I found the KCam left out some traces. So much for
> > that idea. This works with that, but it don't work with
> > this!  KCam only imports and it saves GCode.  I just
> > use an old version to plot and scale my DXF. I then save
> > them as GCode. Works great!  I wish somebody would make
> > a simple drawing program that saves in GCode.
> > 
> >                                        John
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
wrote:

> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > KCam!  OK, now I remember you saying you used it.  Can KCam then
> > export
> > > in DXF?  Sounds like a plan.  Let me know how it turns out.  I'd
> > like to
> > > see the results.
> > >
> > > Alan  KM6VV

Hi John,

Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to write", right Dave? 
I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, component, and
solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have traces and pads. 
The silk (yellow) is component outline. 
I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded a TCi gerber
file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As long as I can
convert the files, I'll just run them through my own "process".
 
Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an inexpensive converter
program!

Alan  KM6VV


crankorgan wrote:

> 
> Hi Alan,
>         TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has the
> pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
> BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
> more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
> it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
> that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
> new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program to write. I
> think the cost is high because there are so few PCBMills in
> use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at last
> year when I came out with my plans. Now there are several
> people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to get
> in on the fun!
> 
>                                                  John
>

Hi John,

Thanks for the URL.  Seem to be new ones all the time!  I contacted
them.

Alan  KM6VV

crankorgan wrote:

> 
> Alan,
>     Check this one out. The software!
> 
> http://www.epsilon-international.com/Products/products.html
> 
>                                       John

Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone doesn't believe 
me, take a look at 

http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG99/SKrivograd/

This page describes some of the math involved with generating an 
outline or tool path.

On a side note, I got ToolPathPro to compile this afternoon. I ran a 
sample DXF file through it and generated some rather interesting 
GCodes. I'll have some pics on my website shortly. The good news is 
that Alan has inspired me to keep on working on this thing. It can 
currently handle direct DXF export from TraxMakerPro and convert to 
GCode. I still need to work on the optimization algorithm, and forsee 
several weeks of coding, but it is in the works.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to write", right 
Dave? 
> I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, component, and
> solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have traces and 
pads. 
> The silk (yellow) is component outline. 
> I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded a TCi 
gerber

> file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As long as I can
> convert the files, I'll just run them through my own "process".
>  
> Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an inexpensive converter
> program!
> 
> Alan  KM6VV
> 
> 
> crankorgan wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Alan,
> >         TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has the
> > pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
> > BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
> > more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
> > it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
> > that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
> > new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program to write. I
> > think the cost is high because there are so few PCBMills in
> > use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at last
> > year when I came out with my plans. Now there are several
> > people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to get
> > in on the fun!
> > 
> >                                                  John
> >

Hi Dave,
        I ment the guys who make Eagle or Target. Make a drawing
program that saves the pad outlines as Gcode or PLT. Running a post
processor is after the fact. You have to put up with all kinds of
garbage. I do beleive a program is comming! Lots of people talking
about milling circuit boards at the hobby level. I would even
go for a Gcode save in Turbocad at this point. I left out two
holes on my last circuit board. Now I have two or more hours
of work to fix it. Adding the holes is easy. Then I have to rotate
the drawing. Convert it to Gcode. Take out some junk. Add some
other stuff. Then center the Gcode, then offset it for the machine
I mill it on. All because I left two hole out. Now if I could draw
in GCode. We are talking minutes.  

                                        John 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone doesn't 
believe 
> me, take a look at 
> 
> http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG99/SKrivograd/
> 
> This page describes some of the math involved with generating an 
> outline or tool path.
> 
> On a side note, I got ToolPathPro to compile this afternoon. I ran 
a 
> sample DXF file through it and generated some rather interesting 
> GCodes. I'll have some pics on my website shortly. The good news is 
> that Alan has inspired me to keep on working on this thing. It can 
> currently handle direct DXF export from TraxMakerPro and convert to 
> GCode. I still need to work on the optimization algorithm, and 
forsee 
> several weeks of coding, but it is in the works.
> 
> Dave
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> > 
> > Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to write", right 
> Dave? 
> > I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, component, and
> > solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have traces and 
> pads. 
> > The silk (yellow) is component outline. 
> > I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded a TCi 
> gerber
> > file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As long as I 
can
> > convert the files, I'll just run them through my own "process".
> >  
> > Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an inexpensive 
converter
> > program!
> > 
> > Alan  KM6VV
> > 
> > 
> > crankorgan wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi Alan,
> > >         TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has the
> > > pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
> > > BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
> > > more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
> > > it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
> > > that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
> > > new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program to write. 
I

> > > think the cost is high because there are so few PCBMills in
> > > use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at last
> > > year when I came out with my plans. Now there are several
> > > people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to get
> > > in on the fun!
> > > 
> > >                                                  John
> > >

John, I now know how you feel.
I spent hours and hours drawing a board in TurboCAD only to find out 
that when I milled the board, I had inverted one of the layers. So, 
all of the holes and traces on the other side were off. So, it is a 
pain. I agree. Hopefully this code we are working on will ease the 
pain until one of the comercial packages can save in GCode.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>         I ment the guys who make Eagle or Target. Make a drawing
> program that saves the pad outlines as Gcode or PLT. Running a post
> processor is after the fact. You have to put up with all kinds of
> garbage. I do beleive a program is comming! Lots of people talking
> about milling circuit boards at the hobby level. I would even
> go for a Gcode save in Turbocad at this point. I left out two
> holes on my last circuit board. Now I have two or more hours
> of work to fix it. Adding the holes is easy. Then I have to rotate
> the drawing. Convert it to Gcode. Take out some junk. Add some
> other stuff. Then center the Gcode, then offset it for the machine
> I mill it on. All because I left two hole out. Now if I could draw
> in GCode. We are talking minutes.  
> 
>                                         John 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> > Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone doesn't 
> believe 
> > me, take a look at 
> > 
> > http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG99/SKrivograd/
> > 
> > This page describes some of the math involved with generating an 
> > outline or tool path.
> > 
> > On a side note, I got ToolPathPro to compile this afternoon. I 
ran 
> a 
> > sample DXF file through it and generated some rather interesting 
> > GCodes. I'll have some pics on my website shortly. The good news 
is 
> > that Alan has inspired me to keep on working on this thing. It 
can 
> > currently handle direct DXF export from TraxMakerPro and convert 
to 
> > GCode. I still need to work on the optimization algorithm, and 
> forsee 
> > several weeks of coding, but it is in the works.
> > 
> > Dave
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
wrote:
> > > Hi John,
> > > 
> > > Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to write", 
right 
> > Dave? 
> > > I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, component, and
> > > solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have traces 
and 
> > pads. 
> > > The silk (yellow) is component outline. 
> > > I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded a TCi 
> > gerber
> > > file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As long as I 
> can
> > > convert the files, I'll just run them through my own "process".
> > >  
> > > Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an inexpensive 
> converter
> > > program!
> > > 
> > > Alan  KM6VV
> > > 
> > > 
> > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Alan,
> > > >         TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has the
> > > > pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
> > > > BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
> > > > more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
> > > > it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
> > > > that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
> > > > new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program to 
write. 

> I
> > > > think the cost is high because there are so few PCBMills in
> > > > use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at last
> > > > year when I came out with my plans. Now there are several
> > > > people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to get
> > > > in on the fun!
> > > > 
> > > >                                                  John
> > > >

Hi,
   So you did a two sided board? Or one side of
the board got messed up?

                             John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> John, I now know how you feel.
> I spent hours and hours drawing a board in TurboCAD only to find 
out 
> that when I milled the board, I had inverted one of the layers. So, 
> all of the holes and traces on the other side were off. So, it is a 
> pain. I agree. Hopefully this code we are working on will ease the 
> pain until one of the comercial packages can save in GCode.
> 
> Dave
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >         I ment the guys who make Eagle or Target. Make a drawing
> > program that saves the pad outlines as Gcode or PLT. Running a 
post
> > processor is after the fact. You have to put up with all kinds of
> > garbage. I do beleive a program is comming! Lots of people talking
> > about milling circuit boards at the hobby level. I would even
> > go for a Gcode save in Turbocad at this point. I left out two
> > holes on my last circuit board. Now I have two or more hours
> > of work to fix it. Adding the holes is easy. Then I have to rotate
> > the drawing. Convert it to Gcode. Take out some junk. Add some
> > other stuff. Then center the Gcode, then offset it for the machine
> > I mill it on. All because I left two hole out. Now if I could draw
> > in GCode. We are talking minutes.  
> > 
> >                                         John 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> > > Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone doesn't 
> > believe 
> > > me, take a look at 
> > > 
> > > http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG99/SKrivograd/
> > > 
> > > This page describes some of the math involved with generating 
an 
> > > outline or tool path.
> > > 
> > > On a side note, I got ToolPathPro to compile this afternoon. I 
> ran 
> > a 
> > > sample DXF file through it and generated some rather 
interesting 
> > > GCodes. I'll have some pics on my website shortly. The good 
news 
> is 
> > > that Alan has inspired me to keep on working on this thing. It 
> can 
> > > currently handle direct DXF export from TraxMakerPro and 
convert 
> to 
> > > GCode. I still need to work on the optimization algorithm, and 
> > forsee 
> > > several weeks of coding, but it is in the works.
> > > 
> > > Dave
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
> wrote:
> > > > Hi John,
> > > > 
> > > > Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to write", 
> right 
> > > Dave? 
> > > > I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, component, 
and
> > > > solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have traces 
> and 
> > > pads. 
> > > > The silk (yellow) is component outline. 
> > > > I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded a 
TCi 
> > > gerber
> > > > file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As long as 
I 
> > can
> > > > convert the files, I'll just run them through my 
own "process".

> > > >  
> > > > Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an inexpensive 
> > converter
> > > > program!
> > > > 
> > > > Alan  KM6VV
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hi Alan,
> > > > >         TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has the
> > > > > pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
> > > > > BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
> > > > > more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
> > > > > it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
> > > > > that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
> > > > > new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program to 
> write. 
> > I
> > > > > think the cost is high because there are so few PCBMills in
> > > > > use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at last
> > > > > year when I came out with my plans. Now there are several
> > > > > people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to get
> > > > > in on the fun!
> > > > > 
> > > > >                                                  John
> > > > >

Right on Dave!

Glad to hear you're again working at it!  Yeah, that's an interesting
page.  Wish I'd seen it BEFORE I started on my code.  Did you see the
files I posted for Demo1R?

I take it ToolPathPro is your program?  I gotta come up with some better
program names!

Alan  KM6VV


ph4appl wrote:

> 
> Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone doesn't believe
> me, take a look at
> 
> http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG99/SKrivograd/
> 
> This page describes some of the math involved with generating an
> outline or tool path.
> 
> On a side note, I got ToolPathPro to compile this afternoon. I ran a
> sample DXF file through it and generated some rather interesting
> GCodes. I'll have some pics on my website shortly. The good news is
> that Alan has inspired me to keep on working on this thing. It can
> currently handle direct DXF export from TraxMakerPro and convert to
> GCode. I still need to work on the optimization algorithm, and forsee
> several weeks of coding, but it is in the works.
> 
> Dave
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> wrote:
> > Hi John,
> >
> > Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to write", right
> Dave?
> > I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, component, and
> > solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have traces and
> pads.
> > The silk (yellow) is component outline.
> > I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded a TCi
> gerber
> > file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As long as I can
> > convert the files, I'll just run them through my own "process".
> >
> > Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an inexpensive converter
> > program!
> >
> > Alan  KM6VV

John, 
All of my boards have been 2-sided so far. I haven't tried a single 
sided board yet. So, you can imagine the work that I had to do in 
TurboCad getting the layers to line up correctly. What a nightmare. 
That is what spawned the work on a tool path generator. So far, I 
only have one of my axis running on a 2sided board that my mill 
etched and drilled. There are many issues getting the layers to line 
up, so I've only been successful once.

I'll put up a pic so you can check it out.

Dave













--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> Hi,
>    So you did a two sided board? Or one side of
> the board got messed up?
> 
>                              John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> > John, I now know how you feel.
> > I spent hours and hours drawing a board in TurboCAD only to find 
> out 
> > that when I milled the board, I had inverted one of the layers. 
So, 
> > all of the holes and traces on the other side were off. So, it is 
a 
> > pain. I agree. Hopefully this code we are working on will ease 
the 
> > pain until one of the comercial packages can save in GCode.
> > 
> > Dave
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > > Hi Dave,
> > >         I ment the guys who make Eagle or Target. Make a drawing
> > > program that saves the pad outlines as Gcode or PLT. Running a 
> post
> > > processor is after the fact. You have to put up with all kinds 
of
> > > garbage. I do beleive a program is comming! Lots of people 
talking
> > > about milling circuit boards at the hobby level. I would even
> > > go for a Gcode save in Turbocad at this point. I left out two
> > > holes on my last circuit board. Now I have two or more hours
> > > of work to fix it. Adding the holes is easy. Then I have to 
rotate
> > > the drawing. Convert it to Gcode. Take out some junk. Add some
> > > other stuff. Then center the Gcode, then offset it for the 
machine
> > > I mill it on. All because I left two hole out. Now if I could 
draw
> > > in GCode. We are talking minutes.  
> > > 
> > >                                         John 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> > > > Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone doesn't 
> > > believe 
> > > > me, take a look at 
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG99/SKrivograd/
> > > > 
> > > > This page describes some of the math involved with generating 
> an 
> > > > outline or tool path.
> > > > 
> > > > On a side note, I got ToolPathPro to compile this afternoon. 
I 
> > ran 
> > > a 
> > > > sample DXF file through it and generated some rather 
> interesting 
> > > > GCodes. I'll have some pics on my website shortly. The good 
> news 
> > is 
> > > > that Alan has inspired me to keep on working on this thing. 
It 
> > can 
> > > > currently handle direct DXF export from TraxMakerPro and 
> convert 
> > to 
> > > > GCode. I still need to work on the optimization algorithm, 
and 
> > > forsee 
> > > > several weeks of coding, but it is in the works.
> > > > 
> > > > Dave
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV <KM6VV@a...> 
> > wrote:
> > > > > Hi John,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to write", 
> > right 
> > > > Dave? 
> > > > > I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, 
component, 
> and
> > > > > solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have 
traces 
> > and 
> > > > pads. 
> > > > > The silk (yellow) is component outline. 
> > > > > I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded a 
> TCi 
> > > > gerber
> > > > > file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As long 
as 
> I 
> > > can
> > > > > convert the files, I'll just run them through my 
> own "process".
> > > > >  
> > > > > Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an inexpensive 
> > > converter
> > > > > program!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Alan  KM6VV
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Hi Alan,
> > > > > >         TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has the
> > > > > > pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
> > > > > > BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
> > > > > > more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
> > > > > > it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
> > > > > > that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
> > > > > > new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program to 
> > write. 
> > > I
> > > > > > think the cost is high because there are so few PCBMills 
in

> > > > > > use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at last
> > > > > > year when I came out with my plans. Now there are several
> > > > > > people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to get
> > > > > > in on the fun!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >                                                  John
> > > > > >

Dave,
     In TurboCad you can set layers and different
colors. Put alignment Crosses or holes in each corner
of the drawings. I just got the hang of the layers the
last month or so. I use single sided boards to keep 
cost down. I use crossover jumpers.

                                  John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> John, 
> All of my boards have been 2-sided so far. I haven't tried a single 
> sided board yet. So, you can imagine the work that I had to do in 
> TurboCad getting the layers to line up correctly. What a nightmare. 
> That is what spawned the work on a tool path generator. So far, I 
> only have one of my axis running on a 2sided board that my mill 
> etched and drilled. There are many issues getting the layers to 
line 
> up, so I've only been successful once.
> 
> I'll put up a pic so you can check it out.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >    So you did a two sided board? Or one side of
> > the board got messed up?
> > 
> >                              John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> > > John, I now know how you feel.
> > > I spent hours and hours drawing a board in TurboCAD only to 
find 
> > out 
> > > that when I milled the board, I had inverted one of the layers. 
> So, 
> > > all of the holes and traces on the other side were off. So, it 
is 
> a 
> > > pain. I agree. Hopefully this code we are working on will ease 
> the 
> > > pain until one of the comercial packages can save in GCode.
> > > 
> > > Dave
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "crankorgan" <john@k...> wrote:
> > > > Hi Dave,
> > > >         I ment the guys who make Eagle or Target. Make a 
drawing
> > > > program that saves the pad outlines as Gcode or PLT. Running 
a 
> > post
> > > > processor is after the fact. You have to put up with all 
kinds 
> of
> > > > garbage. I do beleive a program is comming! Lots of people 
> talking
> > > > about milling circuit boards at the hobby level. I would even
> > > > go for a Gcode save in Turbocad at this point. I left out two
> > > > holes on my last circuit board. Now I have two or more hours
> > > > of work to fix it. Adding the holes is easy. Then I have to 
> rotate
> > > > the drawing. Convert it to Gcode. Take out some junk. Add some
> > > > other stuff. Then center the Gcode, then offset it for the 
> machine
> > > > I mill it on. All because I left two hole out. Now if I could 
> draw
> > > > in GCode. We are talking minutes.  
> > > > 
> > > >                                         John 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., "ph4appl" <ph4appl@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Not easy by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone 
doesn't 
> > > > believe 
> > > > > me, take a look at 
> > > > > 
> > > > > http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/studentwork/CESCG99/SKrivograd/
> > > > > 
> > > > > This page describes some of the math involved with 
generating 
> > an 
> > > > > outline or tool path.
> > > > > 
> > > > > On a side note, I got ToolPathPro to compile this 
afternoon. 
> I 
> > > ran 
> > > > a 
> > > > > sample DXF file through it and generated some rather 
> > interesting 
> > > > > GCodes. I'll have some pics on my website shortly. The good 
> > news 
> > > is 
> > > > > that Alan has inspired me to keep on working on this thing. 
> It 
> > > can 
> > > > > currently handle direct DXF export from TraxMakerPro and 
> > convert 
> > > to 
> > > > > GCode. I still need to work on the optimization algorithm, 
> and 
> > > > forsee 
> > > > > several weeks of coding, but it is in the works.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dave
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@y..., Alan Marconett KM6VV 
<KM6VV@a...> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi John,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Well, I wouldn't say it's a "very simple program to 
write", 
> > > right 
> > > > > Dave? 
> > > > > > I've seen the three Gerber files from TCi.  Silk, 
> component, 
> > and
> > > > > > solder.  Both component (green) and solder (red) have 
> traces 
> > > and 
> > > > > pads. 
> > > > > > The silk (yellow) is component outline. 
> > > > > > I only saw a few random blue and red lines when I loaded 
a 
> > TCi 
> > > > > gerber
> > > > > > file into KCam.  I suspect I have an old version.  As 
long 
> as 
> > I 
> > > > can
> > > > > > convert the files, I'll just run them through my 
> > own "process".
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Hay!  If the cost is high, maybe I can sell an 
inexpensive 
> > > > converter
> > > > > > program!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Alan  KM6VV
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > crankorgan wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hi Alan,
> > > > > > >         TCI makes three Gerber files. One of them has 
the
> > > > > > > pads and traces. When I plot the Gerber I get lots of
> > > > > > > BLUE lines. Red is cut and blue is travel. When I see
> > > > > > > more BLUE than Red I quit. I like my machine to spend
> > > > > > > it's time cutting not traveling all over. Most program
> > > > > > > that do outlines of traces are bogus. There are several
> > > > > > > new ones coming out. Big money! A very simple program 
to 
> > > write. 
> > > > I
> > > > > > > think the cost is high because there are so few 
PCBMills 
> in
> > > > > > > use. They are very expensive to buy. I got laughed at 
last
> > > > > > > year when I came out with my plans. Now there are 
several
> > > > > > > people with homemade PCBMills. Here is your chance to 
get

> > > > > > > in on the fun!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >                                                  John
> > > > > > >