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Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-03-21 by Richard Mustakos

Ron,
Thanks for the info. From what you said, I read that Ammonium
Chloride is useful as a flux, but will eat up non copper metals, is that
correct? I know it is very water soluble, so washing after forming the
circuit pattern on the substrate, but before soldering any components on
should get rid of the corrosion issue. Does this go along with your
understanding? I need it to perform 2 functions: absorb enough ink to
get sticky enough to hold the metals and flux to the board so I can dump
the metal and flux powders off the parts I don't need, and then to flux
the solder powder onto copper powder when I melt to the circuit onto the
substrate. When I attach the components, I can use regular solder & flux.
Thanks
Richard

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-03-22 by Ron Amundson

> Thanks for the info. From what you said, I read that Ammonium
> Chloride is useful as a flux, but will eat up non copper metals, is that
> correct? I know it is very water soluble, so washing after forming the
> circuit pattern on the substrate, but before soldering any components on
> should get rid of the corrosion issue.

One of my friends tried that, but found that he was unable to clean it, plus
he also had ionic contaminants that migrated into the laminate. It might be
worth trying a few things, but the cleaning will be critical. As far as
ionic contamination and resulting problems, I'm not sure what to say.
Ron

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-03-22 by Ron Amundson

> I don't know what to say about ionic contamination either, I have no
> idea what it is ;) How does it effect a board? Does it rot the
> FR-4?

Ionic contamination creates low impedance shorts all over the board.
Sometimes they will not exist when you first power the board up, but can
show up in a matter of hours. Low levels can cause clock drift, or
intermittent oscillator startup.

Very frustrating.....
Ron

Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-03-22 by rmustakos

I don't know what to say about ionic contamination either, I have no
idea what it is ;) How does it effect a board? Does it rot the
FR-4? If I'm just looking for a fast way to prototype PCBs, would it
rule out it's use? I'm just looking for a _cheap_ way to do proof of
concept, and that $1.00/ounce is looking pretty inviting, but if it
messes everything up, it's expensive at half the price.
I looked at Heraeus for powdered flux, but only found liquid and
paste. I have an e-mail in to them to see if they have anything else.
Thanks
Richard
>
> One of my friends tried that, but found that he was unable to clean
it, plus
> he also had ionic contaminants that migrated into the laminate. It
might be
> worth trying a few things, but the cleaning will be critical. As far as
> ionic contamination and resulting problems, I'm not sure what to say.
> Ron

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-03-22 by Stefan Trethan

That isn't going to work..
the solder will bead up, never form continuous useable traces.

try it with copper and solder filings and colophony powder.

If you have enough copper to make it stay you still have no adhesion to
the board.
Then you have "sucking" of ink, no resolution at all, how narroy parallel
traces
do you think are possible with this?

When you solder you have to solder in the soft solder/copper traces, that
will not be easy.

I don't see any advantage of this process, i would not waste my time even
if the
odds were better that it works.
(Even in an ideal case the work and result are much worse than many other
processes (like TT)).

If you have so much time, of course it is your decision on what you waste
it.
And i also like experiments.

I just wanted to say i think it is highly unlikely that something useable
emerges from this
idea..

I do think it makes only sense to investigate simpler/cheaper/faster
processes than we already have.
(e.g. better than TT for medium quality and better than photooptical for
highest quality)

Stefan



On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:37:21 -0800, Richard Mustakos <rmustakos@...>
wrote:

> Ron,
> Thanks for the info. From what you said, I read that Ammonium
> Chloride is useful as a flux, but will eat up non copper metals, is that
> correct? I know it is very water soluble, so washing after forming the
> circuit pattern on the substrate, but before soldering any components on
> should get rid of the corrosion issue. Does this go along with your
> understanding? I need it to perform 2 functions: absorb enough ink to
> get sticky enough to hold the metals and flux to the board so I can dump
> the metal and flux powders off the parts I don't need, and then to flux
> the solder powder onto copper powder when I melt to the circuit onto the
> substrate. When I attach the components, I can use regular solder &
> flux.
> Thanks
> Richard

Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-03-24 by Richard Mustakos

Stephan

>...the solder will bead up, never form continuous useable traces.
>try it with copper and solder filings and colophony powder.
> If you have enough copper to make it stay you still have no adhesion to
>the board.
>
>
>
>
This has been a issue in my mind, though I'm not sure what the effect
of the copper powder will have on the process is. I am also looking
into water activated adhesives, as a back up. I wonder whether sanding
the fiberglass would make a difference, since even though the wetting
won't happen, there could be a good mechanical adhesion if the reflowed
solder can get 'around' the flayed fibers. FR-4 might not be the
preferred substrate for this: I believe it is expressly engineered (or
the flux was) to not be wetted with flux, to not be solderable. I have
not looked into other possibilities, but one possibility is card stock,
since I think it can stand up to reflow temps, it should not have worse
wicking problems than anything else, and is relatively cheap (buy a pack
of 3x5s and your golden for 50-100 small prototype boards). This is
directly aimed at short lived prototype boards. Longer life boards
would be made the regular way.
I will look at the colophony powder, but a reference I've found says:

"Colophony is pine resin after the turpentine has been removed. It has
such a strong affinity for Fire that if kept in a powder form (this is
chunk), it can spontaneously combust."
<www.alchemy-works.com/incense_colophony.html>

I would want a fine powder for this application (more likely to take
detail), and spontaneous combustion of working materials is right up
there with muiriatic acid cocktails for the kids. ;)

>Then you have "sucking" of ink, no resolution at all, how narroy parallel
>traces
>do you think are possible with this?
>
>
I'm not really worried about the capillary action of the water into
the powders and how it effects the trace, as paper is a tough target
that way, and the ink jets have gotten over that problem for the most
part. So my first thought is that the effect will be negligible, but
that's what experiments are for.

>When you solder you have to solder in the soft solder/copper traces, that
>will not be easy.
>
>
I actually have a full size syringe of silver/solder conductive inks,
and I was thinking using that for component mechanical and electrical
placement and bonding.

>I don't see any advantage of this process, i would not waste my time even
>if the
>odds were better that it works.
>(Even in an ideal case the work and result are much worse than many other
>processes (like TT)).
>
My target audience for this is, well, me.
I have children at home, and am not all that interested in having the
liquid chemicals around the house (of course keeping lead, flux and
copper powders in the house is perfectly safe <G>, that and a little
vodka seem to make the kids much easier to deal with (the powders for
them, the drink for me ;) )), or of going through the imaging/etching
process. While I'm going to end up doing smt, for the most part I'm
sticking to pdip, where I can, so I come from the low to medium
resolution camp.
Thanks for the comments
RM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-04-06 by rmustakos

I got three or four ml of solder powder and ground rosin in the mail.
According to the manufacturer, the rosin is all right for
electronics, but that it should be cleaned off for long term use. I
think it will be ok for prototypes, but I guess we'll see. I'm
working on making a Epson color 400 into a flat bed. I've got it
chopped up, but I need to track down the 'paper is present' switch, as
it keeps bitching that it's out of paper and won't print, though it
feeds paper, card stock and circuit board OK. Of course, I have not
gotten it to print, so the head may hit the board. I'll take it with
me while I travel and beat it up some more.
I've not refilled Epsons before, is it just an issue of putting ink in
through the feed hole at the bottom, or is there some other trick to
keeping it from running out of the air-hole, like taping the air hole
shut until the cartridge is installed?
Thanks
Richard

Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-04-06 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rmustakos" <rmustakos@a...> wrote:
...
> I've not refilled Epsons before, is it just an issue of putting ink in
> through the feed hole at the bottom, or is there some other trick to
> keeping it from running out of the air-hole, like taping the air hole
> shut until the cartridge is installed?

There are several methods, but the bottom fill is going to be the
easiest. Not normally necessary to tape the air hole shut unless you
are leaving it out of the printer for a long time, in which case the
bottom hole would need to be plugged, too.

What method are you going to try using? Print the rosin and sprinkle
solder on it?

Steve

Re: Inkjet printing to make circuit stick to substrate

2004-04-06 by rmustakos

Steve
I'm planning on puttng dry, powdered rosin and solder powder on the
board (mixed, but loose) and seeing if just printing ink on it will
make it stick together well enough so that I can blow the dry powders
off. The rosin is supposed to be hydrophilic. If this doesn't work,
I may try some type of waster based adhesive to hold it together.
I'm also trying to find some substrate that will wet enough to the
reflowed solder does not bead, but not so well that it doesn 't sheet.
I think a rough surface may be better for that then a smooth surface,
so the melted solder can wrap around the irregularities and have a
good mechanical connection.
Thanks for the Epson info!
Richard
> What method are you going to try using? Print the rosin and sprinkle
> solder on it?
>
> Steve

[Homebrew_PCBs] tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Stefan Trethan

Hi,


I bought a few ICs at ebay, very cheap, but some have tqfp case....

the pin to pin spacing is 20mil i believe, it are 100 pins.

Do you think this is possible with TT?

It are xilinx cplds..

I have some with 160pins (xc95216) but they have a wider spacing, they
don't trouble
me much but the 20 mil is really a bit low.....

i would really dislike to buy some photoresist boards and my printer
doesn't make transparencys
that are good...



ST


(p.s. i managed to get my nylon screws yesterday... had to make them from
a old plastic clothes hanger. no way to buy plastic screws with hexagonal
head..... will report soon about the horizontal
pcb etch holder)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:06 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] tqfp package with TT?


> Hi,
>
>
> I bought a few ICs at ebay, very cheap, but some have tqfp case....
>
> the pin to pin spacing is 20mil i believe, it are 100 pins.

It's probably 0.5 mm.

>
> Do you think this is possible with TT?
>
> It are xilinx cplds..
>
> I have some with 160pins (xc95216) but they have a wider spacing, they
> don't trouble
> me much but the 20 mil is really a bit low.....
>
> i would really dislike to buy some photoresist boards and my printer
> doesn't make transparencys
> that are good...

I don't think TT will be much use.

Leon

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by rmustakos

I'm about to try some TT stuff. I'm not ready to etch, yet, but I
want to play with TT some to get the transfer right. I printed out a
design with 6 mil lines and spacing using an HP1200, and it looks
great on paper (like so many other things <G>). Do the lines widen
when you transfer? Or is there something with the etching that limits
the minimum width?
Thanks
Richard
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I bought a few ICs at ebay, very cheap, but some have tqfp case....
>
> the pin to pin spacing is 20mil i believe, it are 100 pins.
>
> Do you think this is possible with TT?
>
> It are xilinx cplds..
>
> I have some with 160pins (xc95216) but they have a wider spacing, they
> don't trouble
> me much but the 20 mil is really a bit low.....
<snip>
> ST
<snip>

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by wheedal99

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan <
> I bought a few ICs at ebay, very cheap, but some have tqfp case....
>
> the pin to pin spacing is 20mil i believe, it are 100 pins.
>
> Do you think this is possible with TT?
>
> It are xilinx cplds..
>
> I have some with 160pins (xc95216) but they have a wider spacing,
they
> don't trouble
> me much but the 20 mil is really a bit low.....

??? Stefan
http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm

uses a 100 pin tqfp with 19.685 mil spacing (center to center) Xilinx
CPLD....

It is do-able.

How much did you pay for them?

-Dal

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Phil

I have no trouble with 10 mil traces with TT. You might want to just
try it out. 12 mil pads, 8 mil seperation could do it. I suspect
aligning the package will be a bit tricky but bet its doable. solder
wick is your friend here, unless you have a reflow oven.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I bought a few ICs at ebay, very cheap, but some have tqfp case....
>
> the pin to pin spacing is 20mil i believe, it are 100 pins.
>
> Do you think this is possible with TT?
>
> It are xilinx cplds..
>
> I have some with 160pins (xc95216) but they have a wider spacing,
they
> don't trouble
> me much but the 20 mil is really a bit low.....
>
> i would really dislike to buy some photoresist boards and my
printer
> doesn't make transparencys
> that are good...
>
>
>
> ST
>
>
> (p.s. i managed to get my nylon screws yesterday... had to make
them from
> a old plastic clothes hanger. no way to buy plastic screws with
hexagonal
> head..... will report soon about the horizontal
> pcb etch holder)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Stefan Trethan

>
> It's probably 0.5 mm.

correct.. i measured...

>
> I don't think TT will be much use.
>

that is not good.
I'd rather hear that's no problem at all.


well, this minute the new PCB holder is completed, and i completed the
fuser motor too...
this means i will soon try it and tell you how bad it is ;-)

thank you for your opinion, even if i don't like it.

ST

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by wheedal99

Yahoo groups is really iffy on posting these days. Anyway here it is
again:

The website I put up a while ago shows just such a usage.

http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm

uses a 100 pin TQFP Xilinx CPLD as a TT demonstration. The part
is .5mm or 19.685mil pin center to pin center. Works good, have done
it *many* times since the first posting.

-Dal
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> I bought a few ICs at ebay, very cheap, but some have tqfp case....
>
> the pin to pin spacing is 20mil i believe, it are 100 pins.
>
> Do you think this is possible with TT?
>
> It are xilinx cplds..
>
> I have some with 160pins (xc95216) but they have a wider spacing,
they
> don't trouble
> me much but the 20 mil is really a bit low.....

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Stefan Trethan

yes, and yes...

the traces widen because of the pressure in the fuser.
but i have played with the sprigs and now i can adjust it a bit to see
if i get good transfer at lower pressure and no widening.

the minimum trace width is also limited by etching, because of
undercutting.
i never had real undercutting problems, after all the copper is only 35u
thick
so in theory ther should not be more than 35u underetchnig (in theory...).


i'll have to look if orcad has the right footprint then i can try..

ST



On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:52:27 -0000, rmustakos <rmustakos@...> wrote:

> I'm about to try some TT stuff. I'm not ready to etch, yet, but I
> want to play with TT some to get the transfer right. I printed out a
> design with 6 mil lines and spacing using an HP1200, and it looks
> great on paper (like so many other things <G>). Do the lines widen
> when you transfer? Or is there something with the etching that limits
> the minimum width?
> Thanks
> Richard
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> Hi,

[Homebrew_PCBs] cucl - i don't understand this!

2004-04-07 by Stefan Trethan

just mixed the etchant for the new tank - put a small test piece in and
it worked WAY faster than the old etchant did..
you could watch it dissolving (no more than 1 minute, probably less).

I used HCL diluted to about 10% or a bit less. then i added a bit H2O2,
more
than usual but from a very old bottle i assumed not very concentrated any
more.

I did not add any cupric cloride, jsut the plain acid and H2O2.

Why is it so fast - with NO GASSING ?

i want to keep it that fast when it gets older - now i have the hydrometer
and can
check the molarity it may be better...

i will record this data for future comparision, but i am unsure if it makes
any sense to check the density if there is no copper in...

thanks for any explanation...



ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:01:30 -0000, wheedal99 <wheedal@...>
wrote:

> Yahoo groups is really iffy on posting these days. Anyway here it is
> again:
>
> The website I put up a while ago shows just such a usage.
>
> http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm
>
> uses a 100 pin TQFP Xilinx CPLD as a TT demonstration. The part
> is .5mm or 19.685mil pin center to pin center. Works good, have done
> it *many* times since the first posting.
>
> -Dal

That's what i want to read... thank you...

However - i just tried to print the footprint and my damn printer seems to
be at his
resolution border...
the pins don't come out evenly spaced.

300dpi seems not enough, how much dpi has your printer?

I will try to fiddle with the parameters of the driver and also try to
print to pdf first etc.
but i fear it is finally the resoultion limit....

ST

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Steve

Wow!

And I just saw an ad in last sunday's paper for a $99 1200dpi laser
printer. Office Max or Office Depot or maybe CompUSA. Stupid rebates...

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wheedal99" <wheedal@h...> wrote:
> Yahoo groups is really iffy on posting these days. Anyway here it is
> again:
>
> The website I put up a while ago shows just such a usage.
>
> http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm
>
> uses a 100 pin TQFP Xilinx CPLD as a TT demonstration. The part
> is .5mm or 19.685mil pin center to pin center. Works good, have done
> it *many* times since the first posting.
>
> -Dal

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-07 by Stefan Trethan

> ??? Stefan
> http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm
>
> uses a 100 pin tqfp with 19.685 mil spacing (center to center) Xilinx
> CPLD....
>
> It is do-able.
>
> How much did you pay for them?
>
> -Dal
>
>

yes.. thanks for replying.. twice ;-) ?

i guess it is because yahoo is really lame with the postings..
huge delays everywhere today...


As said in the other post i have problems with the 300dpi of the printer,
uneven pad spacing. try to tweak it, or buy another printer. how much dpi
do you have?


i bought:
9 xc95144-10
2 xc95216-15
2 AD9801 (25 Msamples ADC)
2 ADSP2181 KS-160
1 ADSP21061 KS-160

i do not really have use for the DSPs, i have worked with the 2181 before
but have no immediate
application just now. same for the SHARC, looks nice though....

payed 30eur which is what one xc95144 would cost me otherwise.


First project with them is a freq. counter using one cpld and having all
leds of the 7segm. display
connected to a individual output. i know this is simply mad without
scanning etc. but i have
the I/O and i am mad. I hope to programm it in a way to display freq. or
period duration
because my scope has no readout and this would be nice.. i also will try
to allow for
t_low and t_high measurement. (if i fund a suitable input stage).


ST

Re: cucl - i don't understand this!

2004-04-07 by Steve

Anyone near me (Tacoma, WA) want about 6 or 7 pounds of dry FeCl
cheap? ;')

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> just mixed the etchant for the new tank - put a small test piece in and
> it worked WAY faster than the old etchant did..
> you could watch it dissolving (no more than 1 minute, probably less).
>
> I used HCL diluted to about 10% or a bit less. then i added a bit H2O2,
> more
> than usual but from a very old bottle i assumed not very
concentrated any
> more.
>
> I did not add any cupric cloride, jsut the plain acid and H2O2.
>
> Why is it so fast - with NO GASSING ?
>
> i want to keep it that fast when it gets older - now i have the
hydrometer
> and can
> check the molarity it may be better...
>
> i will record this data for future comparision, but i am unsure if
it makes
> any sense to check the density if there is no copper in...
>
> thanks for any explanation...
>
>
>
> ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: cucl - i don't understand this!

2004-04-07 by Stefan Trethan

Add my 2 pounds to it ;-)

But i really wonder why the fresh etchant is so much faster...
seems stupid that all the cucl recepies call for adding cucl salt.......

I also wonder why yahoo is sleeping today.

ST

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 22:08:54 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Anyone near me (Tacoma, WA) want about 6 or 7 pounds of dry FeCl
> cheap? ;')
>
> Steve

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: cucl - i don't understand this!

2004-04-07 by Jeremy Taylor

I dont think anybody here recently said you need to add copper sulfate, as
we all now know, as soon as you put the first board in, you have some.
Unless the board was micro sized, I personally cannot believe you had a 1
min etch with no gassing, but that's just from my experience. I'm thinking
your h202 was a bit stronger than maybe you anticipated.

Anyway very glad it's working for you. ~But I think it better to donate the
FeCl to your local haz mat disposer than to pass the curse on. : )

JT

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-08 by Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:01:30 -0000, wheedal99 <wheedal@h...>
>
> 300dpi seems not enough, how much dpi has your printer?
>
> I will try to fiddle with the parameters of the driver and also try
to
> print to pdf first etc.
> but i fear it is finally the resoultion limit....
>
> ST

300 DPI equates to 3.33 mils/dot. that makes a 10 mil trace all of 3
dots wides. On a 600 DPI device, that would be 6 dots. 1200 DPI -
12. Of course using a magnifying glass one can clearly see that the
dots aren't exactly round. Its not suprising to me 300 doesn't do it
for fine traces. If it were me, 1200 DPI.

I use an inkjet and then a copier. My printer has 1440 DPI resolution
and the copier is an "analog" device so its resolution is about the
size of the toner particles (probably effectively less). no problem
with 10 mil traces.

[Homebrew_PCBs] horizontal etch - bottom side way faster

2004-04-08 by Stefan Trethan

Hi


just want to inform you that the bottom side is etched MUCH faster in a
horizontal etch
setup.

HCl H2O2, from time to time moving the container around to agitate.

at least half the time on the bottom side, the top just starts
to clear at the edges and the bottom is already clear..

i assume it is because the etched away stuff is heavy, and sinks away from
the bottom
while it deposits on the top...

so if you do single sided board do them face down,

this is bad for doublesided, because of underetching....

i start thinking a vertical setup might really have been a better idea..

any good ideas out there for a vertical tank pcb holder?

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-08 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve" <alienrelics@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:52 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: tqfp package with TT?


> Wow!
>
> And I just saw an ad in last sunday's paper for a $99 1200dpi laser
> printer. Office Max or Office Depot or maybe CompUSA. Stupid rebates...

I think they make their money on the toner, it's the same with ink jet
printers and cartridges.

Leon

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-08 by rmustakos

That's interesting - 300 dpi should give you 3&1/3 mil pixels, right?
Is there anything in the driver that might be effecting it? Unless it
is _really_ trying to do 19.xxx mil, in which case the pads are small
enough that you would see the difference between 16&2/3 and 20 mill
centers, and it probably depends on where the pad starts and ends as
to whether is goes big or small.
You might try printing a test pattern with 1 to n mill wide traces,
multiples places, so you can see how each is effected by placement.
Find a size that is stable and stick with it, 6.667 mil widths on 6.67
mils grid, or just don't worry about the width delta. It shouldn't
really effect how well the board works.
Richard

> However - i just tried to print the footprint and my damn printer
seems to
> be at his
> resolution border...
> the pins don't come out evenly spaced.
>
> 300dpi seems not enough, how much dpi has your printer?
>
> I will try to fiddle with the parameters of the driver and also try to
> print to pdf first etc.
> but i fear it is finally the resoultion limit....
>
> ST

Re: horizontal etch - bottom side way faster

2004-04-08 by Phil

You could just flip the board half way through.

there are several plans/designs on the internet for vertical tanks.
I used http://www.embeddedtronics.com/etchant.html as a starting
point. be generous with the aquarium sealer/adhesive. My first
attempt leaked just a little so I rebuilt it with about twice the
amount and it works good now. Be sure to buy the special knife for
cutting the plexiglass, it makes all the difference.

I sized it to hold 1 liter etchant so I could pour it into a
container at the end of the etch. Got an aquarium heater and air
pump. Drilled #69 holes in some 1/4" (6mm?) tubing for a bubbler.
The bubbler really works well in that etching is very uniform. with
AP and heater to 100F, it takes around 13 minutes. You will want to
build a lid for it because the bubbles cause some splashing.
Remember to cut some slots for the board holder(s) so it will sit
flat.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
>
> just want to inform you that the bottom side is etched MUCH faster
in a
> horizontal etch
> setup.
>
> HCl H2O2, from time to time moving the container around to agitate.
>
> at least half the time on the bottom side, the top just starts
> to clear at the edges and the bottom is already clear..
>
> i assume it is because the etched away stuff is heavy, and sinks
away from
> the bottom
> while it deposits on the top...
>
> so if you do single sided board do them face down,
>
> this is bad for doublesided, because of underetching....
>
> i start thinking a vertical setup might really have been a better
idea..
>
> any good ideas out there for a vertical tank pcb holder?
>
> ST

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-08 by wheedal99

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan >
> yes.. thanks for replying.. twice ;-) ?
>
> i guess it is because yahoo is really lame with the postings..
> huge delays everywhere today...
Yep, the first reply took 4.5 hrs to post, the 2nd reply beat the
first one by a couple of hours. --Strange, must be an artifact of
the clustered databases/stored procedures.


> As said in the other post i have problems with the 300dpi of the
printer,
> uneven pad spacing. try to tweak it, or buy another printer. how
much dpi
> do you have?

Uneven spacing is the aliasing from your 300dpi printer, even at
600dpi, it's there, but much less of an issue. You can see a little
of it on the 48pin tqfp on my website photo of the raw copper with
the newly tranfered image.

My LJ 5L is a 600dpi --I'd like to get a newer 1200dpi, but this one
works good so even the $79 (after rebate) printers you see at a lot
of stores now is hard to justify. If I didn't already have one
though, it'd be a no brainer.

I have done some work with HP III, IIp with OK results --but no
tight traces --also the toner on that one was a little more brittle --
3rd party refillable. I don't think 300dpi is up to doing .5mm pitch
tqfps though.


> i bought:
> 9 xc95144-10
> 2 xc95216-15
> 2 AD9801 (25 Msamples ADC)
> 2 ADSP2181 KS-160
> 1 ADSP21061 KS-160

> payed 30eur which is what one xc95144 would cost me otherwise.
>
>
Sounds like a pretty good deal! Also, Xilinx online store has some
better prices than a few of the electronics vendors that carry thier
products. If you ship outside of the US though, shipping costs kill
the deal.

> First project with them is a freq. counter using one cpld and
having all
> leds of the 7segm. display
> connected to a individual output. i know this is simply mad without
> scanning etc. but i have
> the I/O and i am mad. I hope to programm it in a way to display
freq. or
> period duration
> because my scope has no readout and this would be nice.. i also
will try
> to allow for
> t_low and t_high measurement. (if i fund a suitable input stage).

You could hook an oscillator to the CPLD and muliplex some of the LED
drivers; although with that many pins, as you say, you might not have
to. I'd probably pulse the outputs anyway to reduce how much power
you were sinking into the CPLD's. These little devices are pretty
cool. Much more reliable than the AMD variant pal-gal 22v10's we
used in school. Although, they don't breadboard too easy. ;')

Anyway, sounds fun. :')

Re: horizontal etch - bottom side way faster

2004-04-08 by rmustakos

I'm thinking about the same, and I remember seeing plastic letter
and/or legal file containers that had snap on/off hinged lids, maybe
Orffice Despot. If I recall, they were maybe 12x10x2 inches, with the
lid being 12x2. I was thinking about getting a bigger container that
would hold an appropriate number of those side by side, as well a
heater, pump and power supply (kind of like Markus' PTH setup, with
space to expand to plating later). If I have to go chemical, the hcl
etch used to feed the plating solution, with minimal effluent
(described at think & tink, I think ;) ) seemed like a good, green way
to go.
Is there any particular type of plastic I should look for, or try and
avoid, either for any of the etchants, or for plating?
Thanks
Richard
>
> any good ideas out there for a vertical tank pcb holder?
>
> ST

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-08 by wheedal99

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rmustakos" > I'm about to try
some TT stuff. I'm not ready to etch, yet, but I
> want to play with TT some to get the transfer right. I printed out
a
> design with 6 mil lines and spacing using an HP1200, and it looks
> great on paper (like so many other things <G>). Do the lines widen
> when you transfer? Or is there something with the etching that
limits
> the minimum width?

I'd probably try something on the order of 10-12mil at first --those
are fairly easy. 6mil is doable, but will take a bit of practice. I
try to avoid anything under 8mil trace/ 6mil clearance, simply
because (1)my printer is 600dpi and I get aliasing below that (2)
without a solder mask it's pretty easy to damage a 6mil trace when
soldering (although with hot air, you can get away with quite a
bit). That said your 1200 dpi should give you better results; but
I'd suggest you try some looser tolerances until you've done a few.

As a side, has anyone done any homebrew pcb/ bga placement? TT or
not.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] messless pcb holder

2004-04-08 by Stefan Trethan

hi again...

at <http://www.electronics.dit.ie/techprocs/p_c_b.htm>
you can see a pcb holder like bungard makes them.

(Please not that this page may contain pictures which are
not suited for people with a strong inclination to tidiness.
if you can't cope with some mess don't look ;-) )

well, for those with a strong stomach you have seen the pcb holder.
(in the pictures in the middle, under the crust of FeCl)

what about removing the screws on the sides, and replacing them
by a plastic rod in the middle up through the top. the upper
bar holding the pcb could then be moved by sliding the rod.
some bracing would be needed to keep the bar parallel bat that's no
problem.
one could add a screw on top to fix the rod.

I think if one makes a vertical tank with a step on the side to rest the
holder
one could put in and take out a pcb with only two hands, not three.
right hand holds the frame on a handle and moves the rod (you have 5
fingers)
and the left hand operates the pcb with tweezers...

this would mean the holder stays above the etchant container all the time,
the occassional
drop well aimed back into the container.
the holder also would have a plate on top which forms the lid for keeping
in the fumes
when it is immersed (and stored).
i reckon the rod which moves the bar can be sealed off enough to prevent
air exchange.


Any good ideas welcome...

I'm rather disappointed that my new tank is not at all what i expected,
after
all it was a lot of work and time going into it (epsecially in two
screws.....)
It is working - but cumbersome....

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: horizontal etch - bottom side way faster

2004-04-08 by Jeremy Taylor

Think n Tink is not HCL... it' Sulfuric, and it works very well.
.
JT

----- Original Message -----
From: "rmustakos" <rmustakos@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 12:42 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: horizontal etch - bottom side way faster


> I'm thinking about the same, and I remember seeing plastic letter
> and/or legal file containers that had snap on/off hinged lids, maybe
> Orffice Despot. If I recall, they were maybe 12x10x2 inches, with the
> lid being 12x2. I was thinking about getting a bigger container that
> would hold an appropriate number of those side by side, as well a
> heater, pump and power supply (kind of like Markus' PTH setup, with
> space to expand to plating later). If I have to go chemical, the hcl
> etch used to feed the plating solution, with minimal effluent
> (described at think & tink, I think ;) ) seemed like a good, green way
> to go.
> Is there any particular type of plastic I should look for, or try and
> avoid, either for any of the etchants, or for plating?
> Thanks
> Richard
> >
> > any good ideas out there for a vertical tank pcb holder?
> >
> > ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-09 by javaguy11111

> As a side, has anyone done any homebrew pcb/ bga placement? TT or
> not.

A few months back I did an experiment with a 555 time in a micro 8
package. My first project to experiment with some 0201 components as
well. The 0201's mounted just fine. Some of the solder balls on the
bga wicked out along the traces and the bga did not settle properly.
There was some bridging as well.

For alignment I bought some balsa triangle and small 1/2 inch mirrors
so I could check the alignment of the balls to the pads. The work was
done under a stereo zoom microscope.

I ultimately got the circuit to flash, but I lined up the bga part and
crudely pressed it into place to get it stick and make contact. Not a
reliable connection by any means.

Biggest headache was my board thickness. The overall ciruit was not
much thicker than the board.

I have bought some .01 and 1/32 board and at some point when I do not
have other projects pressing, I will give it another go.

Re: messless pcb holder

2004-04-09 by ballendo

Hello,

How about the three rod holder Markus Z uses in his THP setup? That
seems to me to be a really great design...

Hope this helps,

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> hi again...
>
> at <http://www.electronics.dit.ie/techprocs/p_c_b.htm>
> you can see a pcb holder like bungard makes them.
>
> (Please not that this page may contain pictures which are
> not suited for people with a strong inclination to tidiness.
> if you can't cope with some mess don't look ;-) )
>
> well, for those with a strong stomach you have seen the pcb holder.
> (in the pictures in the middle, under the crust of FeCl)
>
> what about removing the screws on the sides, and replacing them
> by a plastic rod in the middle up through the top. the upper
> bar holding the pcb could then be moved by sliding the rod.
> some bracing would be needed to keep the bar parallel bat that's no
> problem.
> one could add a screw on top to fix the rod.
>
> I think if one makes a vertical tank with a step on the side to
rest the
> holder
> one could put in and take out a pcb with only two hands, not three.
> right hand holds the frame on a handle and moves the rod (you have
5
> fingers)
> and the left hand operates the pcb with tweezers...
>
> this would mean the holder stays above the etchant container all
the time,
> the occassional
> drop well aimed back into the container.
> the holder also would have a plate on top which forms the lid for
keeping
> in the fumes
> when it is immersed (and stored).
> i reckon the rod which moves the bar can be sealed off enough to
prevent
> air exchange.
>
>
> Any good ideas welcome...
>
> I'm rather disappointed that my new tank is not at all what i
expected,
> after
> all it was a lot of work and time going into it (epsecially in two
> screws.....)
> It is working - but cumbersome....
>
> ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] horizontal etch - bottom side way faster

2004-04-09 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 1:09 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] horizontal etch - bottom side way faster


>
>
> Hi
>
>
> just want to inform you that the bottom side is etched MUCH faster in a
> horizontal etch
> setup.
>
> HCl H2O2, from time to time moving the container around to agitate.
>
> at least half the time on the bottom side, the top just starts
> to clear at the edges and the bottom is already clear..
>
> i assume it is because the etched away stuff is heavy, and sinks away from
> the bottom
> while it deposits on the top...
>
> so if you do single sided board do them face down,
>
> this is bad for doublesided, because of underetching....
>
> i start thinking a vertical setup might really have been a better idea..
>
> any good ideas out there for a vertical tank pcb holder?

Simplest way is to put a piece of string in a hole in the board and dangle
it in the tank.

Leon

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: horizontal etch - bottom side way faster

2004-04-09 by David Hopkins

Gentlemen,
have a look at
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HP9530&CATID=&keywords=tank&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID

This is a commercial product that I have used for years.

Although this is an Australian supplier the Tank would most likely be made
in China or one of those eastern countries.

The same tank can be bought from several suppliers in this country so I
would be surprised if it were not available in most countries in the world.

David

At 02:18 AM 9/04/2004, you wrote:
>You could just flip the board half way through.
>
>there are several plans/designs on the internet for vertical tanks.
>I used http://www.embeddedtronics.com/etchant.html as a starting
>point. be generous with the aquarium sealer/adhesive. My first
>attempt leaked just a little so I rebuilt it with about twice the
>amount and it works good now. Be sure to buy the special knife for
>cutting the plexiglass, it makes all the difference.
>
>I sized it to hold 1 liter etchant so I could pour it into a
>container at the end of the etch. Got an aquarium heater and air
>pump. Drilled #69 holes in some 1/4" (6mm?) tubing for a bubbler.
>The bubbler really works well in that etching is very uniform. with
>AP and heater to 100F, it takes around 13 minutes. You will want to
>build a lid for it because the bubbles cause some splashing.
>Remember to cut some slots for the board holder(s) so it will sit
>flat.
>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
><stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> >
> > just want to inform you that the bottom side is etched MUCH faster
>in a
> > horizontal etch
> > setup.
> >
> > HCl H2O2, from time to time moving the container around to agitate.
> >
> > at least half the time on the bottom side, the top just starts
> > to clear at the edges and the bottom is already clear..
> >
> > i assume it is because the etched away stuff is heavy, and sinks
>away from
> > the bottom
> > while it deposits on the top...
> >
> > so if you do single sided board do them face down,
> >
> > this is bad for doublesided, because of underetching....
> >
> > i start thinking a vertical setup might really have been a better
>idea..
> >
> > any good ideas out there for a vertical tank pcb holder?
> >
> > ST
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

David Hopkins (VK4ZF)
Queensland
AUSTRALIA
davhop@...
S 27, 22.294 E153, 11.008

[Homebrew_PCBs] test..

2004-04-09 by Stefan Trethan

my damn mail provider says causes trouble,
yahoo says mail undeliverable - bouncing mails (or something similar).

i missed several messages and have to read them online..

hope it works now..

sorry for messing up the list but i must try.

ST

Re: test..

2004-04-09 by stefan_trethan

damn, didn't get through...
I hate gmx...

i have changed to my student adress, which should work now.
you can send to the old adress too, at least now.
i don't like to change my adress at all.
i will have to have a word with those guys at gmx.
they desperately try to make the users buy "pro" accounts
and so they make your free account really bad working.

the new adress is e0225977@..., but it
is still me ;-).

sorry for messing up the list, but i have to debug this.
i will delete those messages when everything is up and running
again.

anyone knowing a really good (and permanent, and free) email provider?

thanks

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> my damn mail provider says causes trouble,
> yahoo says mail undeliverable - bouncing mails (or something
similar).
>
> i missed several messages and have to read them online..
>
> hope it works now..
>
> sorry for messing up the list but i must try.
>
> ST

Re: test..

2004-04-09 by Phil

stefan, its not on your end, its yahoo.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "stefan_trethan"
<e0225977@s...> wrote:
> damn, didn't get through...
> I hate gmx...
>
> i have changed to my student adress, which should work now.
> you can send to the old adress too, at least now.
> i don't like to change my adress at all.
> i will have to have a word with those guys at gmx.
> they desperately try to make the users buy "pro" accounts
> and so they make your free account really bad working.
>
> the new adress is e0225977@s..., but it
> is still me ;-).
>
> sorry for messing up the list, but i have to debug this.
> i will delete those messages when everything is up and running
> again.
>
> anyone knowing a really good (and permanent, and free) email
provider?
>
> thanks
>
> ST
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > my damn mail provider says causes trouble,
> > yahoo says mail undeliverable - bouncing mails (or something
> similar).
> >
> > i missed several messages and have to read them online..
> >
> > hope it works now..
> >
> > sorry for messing up the list but i must try.
> >
> > ST

Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-09 by mikezcnc

Stefan,

I never added cupric chloride and I always use fresh mix due to
safety reasons. I always have lighting fast etching and I always have
fumes and lot's of it. The fact that you have no fumes says that you
have a NEW PROCESS and I would try to duplicate it. You have
something so new that I checked your date if it is not an April Fool
joke. What you experience is not possible.

Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:01:30 -0000, wheedal99 <wheedal@h...>
> wrote:
>
> > Yahoo groups is really iffy on posting these days. Anyway here
it is
> > again:
> >
> > The website I put up a while ago shows just such a usage.
> >
> > http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm
> >
> > uses a 100 pin TQFP Xilinx CPLD as a TT demonstration. The part
> > is .5mm or 19.685mil pin center to pin center. Works good, have
done
> > it *many* times since the first posting.
> >
> > -Dal
>
> That's what i want to read... thank you...
>
> However - i just tried to print the footprint and my damn printer
seems to
> be at his
> resolution border...
> the pins don't come out evenly spaced.
>
> 300dpi seems not enough, how much dpi has your printer?
>
> I will try to fiddle with the parameters of the driver and also try
to
> print to pdf first etc.
> but i fear it is finally the resoultion limit....
>
> ST

[Homebrew_PCBs] 300DPI resolution limits...

2004-04-09 by Stefan Trethan

damn...

just noticed the posts i wrote the last week didn't show up at all...
(at least is seems so..)
i used the wrong adress i think, you will get them all at once now..
sorry for so many messages at once...


FIRST THING:

PLEASE EVERYONE MAKING Toner Transfer LIST RESULTS IN DATABASE SECTION,
I'm going to buy another printer and need to know which ones work.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/database?method=reportRows&tbl=4>
thank you very much..


resolution:

Had some free space on a small pcb and decided to do some testing.
one patten consisting of lines from 8 to 3 mil,
result: 8 and 7 mil look exactly the same, 6,5,4,3 look also exactly the
same.

another pattern: 1 mil lines with center to center spacing of 1 to 7 mil.
only 7 mil shows clearance at all(i would not rely on it without testing).
The interesting thing is the 1 mil lines have the same thickness as the
6,5,4,3 in the
experiment above.

so that leaves me thinking the printer always outputs 6,66 mil if under
6,66 mil.
(not 3,33 below 3,33).
But the 6,66mil looks pretty reliable, i would trust it without second
thought (ok visual
inspection).

i had to fuse it a bit longer because of pinholes (my printer seems to have
noticed i plan to replace it and so he has decided to make no proper
printout ever again).
This means with only standard fusing the 7 mil spacing would maybe get
more reliable.


so you see, the 300dpi would be enough for 6.66 mil traces which is more
than i ever
asked for. if the damn tqfp wouldn't have metric spacing or the damn
printer wouldn't have
imperial resolution there would be no problem i guess.
As much as we europeans always complain about the mil, sometimes it is not
that bad.

would love to hear of someone with a 600 or 1200 dpi printer doing the
"staggered spacing"
and "staggered width" experiment and writing up what he gets. it takes
less than a square cm
and it looks even a bit decorative..

Damn it is late already - didn't notice.. considering the last sentence
you might have noticed
already.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: tqfp package with TT?

2004-04-09 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 22:57:12 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Stefan,
>
> I never added cupric chloride and I always use fresh mix due to
> safety reasons. I always have lighting fast etching and I always have
> fumes and lot's of it. The fact that you have no fumes says that you
> have a NEW PROCESS and I would try to duplicate it. You have
> something so new that I checked your date if it is not an April Fool
> joke. What you experience is not possible.
>
> Mike

The bubbles came afer 15 minutes...

It seems the first dose of H2O2 stays in without bubbling because there is
no
metal solved.

no bubbles where to be seen on the first pcb but later i had them, more
than enough.

i did 3 pcbs in 2 days without replenishing H2O2 so there was more than
enough in there.

However, the first pcb showed no bubbles and i could watch the copper
vanish,
believe it or not.

definitely no new process, did it as ever - i'm just not used to start a
batch since
it is only my second.

I also measured the density, is well lighter than 1.2 (the scale ends
there and the hydrometer
stayed floored.
no time fore HCl molarity yet.

ST