Homebrew PCBs

Sorry for this OT request.

Recently (Back end of last year) there was discussion about making 
tanks and bits from PVC.  There were also recommendations about how to 
weld PVC  - which hot air gun to use etc.

I have purchased a suitable gun and some pvc welding rods but I am 
wasting a lot of material trying to get a reasonable result.  So far 
all my results are disgusting and unusable.  I would appreciate some 
advice with regard to temperatures, types of welding rod and so on.

My gun is a Steinel 2305 and I bought there rods.  Are there better 
types available?  Should I give up and stick to glue (what a failure 
that would be!!)?

Simon Whitehead
s.whitehead@...

>Sorry for this OT request.
>
>Recently (Back end of last year) there was discussion about making 
>tanks and bits from PVC.  There were also recommendations about how to 
>weld PVC  - which hot air gun to use etc.
>
>I have purchased a suitable gun and some pvc welding rods but I am 
>wasting a lot of material trying to get a reasonable result.  So far 
>all my results are disgusting and unusable.  I would appreciate some 
>advice with regard to temperatures, types of welding rod and so on.
>
>My gun is a Steinel 2305 and I bought there rods.  Are there better 
>types available?  Should I give up and stick to glue (what a failure 
>that would be!!)?

Hi Simon 

If you have the 2305 LCD you have the right one. Did you also got the
propper nozzle?

Then, ready made rods are often not so well suited. I could also not
get propper results with the rod's. They very often differ from hte
material you work with and that's a big problem. What I do is I
usually cut off small srtipes (using a small circular table saw) of
the material I'm welding cause then it's guaranteed to work well.

Every material is having it's own optimal temperature. The material
should not start to create bubbles, smoke or burn, and the temperature
also depends a bit on how fast you work. I would just regulate the
temperature up bit by bit until you see that it works well. Then,
remember what temperature you have on your LCD display and set it to
this temperature the next time.

There IS a learning curve involved also. I remember that I had to
trash the first four tanks until I got useable results. Start with
just bending material. If you have the temperature set so as you can
bend the material it's not too far away from what you need for the
welding process. Play with it until you get a feeling on how it
reacts. Then start to weld something simple (i.e. weld two plates into
a T shape or such) until you have some practize.

Don't give up, it's worth it in the end and it's a very flexible
technology that you can use in many places. It's really worth
investing some practizeing.

Markus

Thats great info thanks to all that replied...
Simon
On 11 Mar 2004, at 12:53, Markus Zingg wrote:

>> Sorry for this OT request.
>>
>> Recently (Back end of last year) there was discussion about making
>> tanks and bits from PVC.  There were also recommendations about how to
>> weld PVC  - which hot air gun to use etc.
>>
>> I have purchased a suitable gun and some pvc welding rods but I am
>> wasting a lot of material trying to get a reasonable result.  So far
>> all my results are disgusting and unusable.  I would appreciate some
>> advice with regard to temperatures, types of welding rod and so on.
>>
>> My gun is a Steinel 2305 and I bought there rods.  Are there better
>> types available?  Should I give up and stick to glue (what a failure
>> that would be!!)?
>
> Hi Simon
>
> If you have the 2305 LCD you have the right one. Did you also got the
> propper nozzle?
>
> Then, ready made rods are often not so well suited. I could also not
> get propper results with the rod's. They very often differ from hte
> material you work with and that's a big problem. What I do is I
> usually cut off small srtipes (using a small circular table saw) of
> the material I'm welding cause then it's guaranteed to work well.
>
> Every material is having it's own optimal temperature. The material
> should not start to create bubbles, smoke or burn, and the temperature
> also depends a bit on how fast you work. I would just regulate the
> temperature up bit by bit until you see that it works well. Then,
> remember what temperature you have on your LCD display and set it to
> this temperature the next time.
>
> There IS a learning curve involved also. I remember that I had to
> trash the first four tanks until I got useable results. Start with
> just bending material. If you have the temperature set so as you can
> bend the material it's not too far away from what you need for the
> welding process. Play with it until you get a feeling on how it
> reacts. Then start to weld something simple (i.e. weld two plates into
> a T shape or such) until you have some practize.
>
> Don't give up, it's worth it in the end and it's a very flexible
> technology that you can use in many places. It's really worth
> investing some practizeing.
>
> Markus
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Simon Whitehead
s.whitehead@...

why welding?  does that give superior results to gluing?  PVC is 
really easy to glue but looks a little messy if not careful.  I use 
it for water pipes (pressured and unpressured) and it holds pretty 
well.  Just curious.

also, I made my tank with plexiglass and aquarium sealer.  Kind of 
ugly but works just fine.  I was a little nervous but it has stood up 
to a fair number of etchings.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Simon Whitehead 
<s.whitehead@c...> wrote:
> Thats great info thanks to all that replied...
> Simon
> On 11 Mar 2004, at 12:53, Markus Zingg wrote:
> 
> >> Sorry for this OT request.
> >>
> >> Recently (Back end of last year) there was discussion about 
making
> >> tanks and bits from PVC.  There were also recommendations about 
how to
> >> weld PVC  - which hot air gun to use etc.
> >>
> >> I have purchased a suitable gun and some pvc welding rods but I 
am
> >> wasting a lot of material trying to get a reasonable result.  So 
far
> >> all my results are disgusting and unusable.  I would appreciate 
some
> >> advice with regard to temperatures, types of welding rod and so 
on.
> >>
> >> My gun is a Steinel 2305 and I bought there rods.  Are there 
better
> >> types available?  Should I give up and stick to glue (what a 
failure
> >> that would be!!)?
> >
> > Hi Simon
> >
> > If you have the 2305 LCD you have the right one. Did you also got 
the
> > propper nozzle?
> >
> > Then, ready made rods are often not so well suited. I could also 
not
> > get propper results with the rod's. They very often differ from 
hte
> > material you work with and that's a big problem. What I do is I
> > usually cut off small srtipes (using a small circular table saw) 
of
> > the material I'm welding cause then it's guaranteed to work well.
> >
> > Every material is having it's own optimal temperature. The 
material
> > should not start to create bubbles, smoke or burn, and the 
temperature
> > also depends a bit on how fast you work. I would just regulate the
> > temperature up bit by bit until you see that it works well. Then,
> > remember what temperature you have on your LCD display and set it 
to
> > this temperature the next time.
> >
> > There IS a learning curve involved also. I remember that I had to
> > trash the first four tanks until I got useable results. Start with
> > just bending material. If you have the temperature set so as you 
can
> > bend the material it's not too far away from what you need for the
> > welding process. Play with it until you get a feeling on how it
> > reacts. Then start to weld something simple (i.e. weld two plates 
into
> > a T shape or such) until you have some practize.
> >
> > Don't give up, it's worth it in the end and it's a very flexible
> > technology that you can use in many places. It's really worth
> > investing some practizeing.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and 
files:

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Simon Whitehead
> s.whitehead@i...

>why welding?  does that give superior results to gluing?  PVC is 
>really easy to glue but looks a little messy if not careful.  I use 
>it for water pipes (pressured and unpressured) and it holds pretty 
>well.  Just curious.
>
>also, I made my tank with plexiglass and aquarium sealer.  Kind of 
>ugly but works just fine.  I was a little nervous but it has stood up 
>to a fair number of etchings.

That's the point. When it comes to really agressiv stuff, you feel
much better with a welded tank. The reason is simple in that if it
does not leak, it will never leak (provided there was no mechanical
shock of course). I decided to weld my tanks for the through plating
station cause in there you have to use highly conentrated stuff like
sulfric acid and other VERY ugly things. Another reason was that I
partially don't know what exactly is inside the fluides. Now, if the
chemistry povider tells you that PVC can resist the stuff, you
definately feel quite good if you weld in that you are sure no other
chemical reaction - even long term - can happen. If you glue you never
know what the chemistry does to your glue. 

Of curse, knownleadge is power. So, if you know exactly what the glue
does and what kind of chemicals you use glueing is surely ok too. 

Oh, before I foreget, with a welding gun, you also can bend plastics
really well and also process other plastics that might be very hard to
glue. Then, it also serves as a very good tool to remove SMD
components from a PCB. There is also no drying period needed after
welding. Lots of reasons to do it, but I agree that one can do without
:-)

Markus

On 11 Mar 2004, at 17:25, Phil wrote:

> why welding?  does that give superior results to gluing?  PVC is
> really easy to glue but looks a little messy if not careful.  I use
> it for water pipes (pressured and unpressured) and it holds pretty
> well.  Just curious.
>
> also, I made my tank with plexiglass and aquarium sealer.  Kind of
> ugly but works just fine.  I was a little nervous but it has stood up
> to a fair number of etchings.

My application is OT.  It is a very large photographic wet bench - 
about 86 x 54 inches - and I am prepared to use glue if necessary but I 
would rather master the welding if I can.  I have got to get something 
out of my expensive hot air gun!

Thanks again for the help...


Simon Whitehead
s.whitehead@...

> My application is OT.  It is a very large photographic wet bench -
> about 86 x 54 inches - and I am prepared to use glue if necessary but I
> would rather master the welding if I can.  I have got to get something
> out of my expensive hot air gun!
>
> Thanks again for the help...
>
>
> Simon Whitehead
> s.whitehead@...
>

Try look in the archives, there was one very good description of the 
different
methods, how to hold the things and so on. (a link to pdf i think).

I too have this gun, it is the best one i think. the new model is a 
downgrade again,
it has gone back to using a few leds for display, the control circuit 
seems the same.
be aware that the degree reading is inside the heating chamber, but there 
fairly
accurate. i measured once and if you put the probe exactly where the air 
comes out
through the slots it is correct with my gun.
looks much different a inch away already.

There are LOADS of useages for this tool, it is worth the money.

The trick is the control circuit. If you compare tools with closed loop
control circuit (electronic and accurate) to tools without they are worth 
way more
than double the price. i had a cheap air gun (eur 20 or so) before, it was 
really
useless.
It's the same with other tools. If you compare a power drill with real RPM 
feedback
control circuit with a power drill without you will see the differences.

If you ever design some machine try to implement a good control system.


Always let your gun blow a few seconds on cool, or the first notch of the 
switch
after high temperature, and put it standing on it's back so the heat rises 
up.
Once i forgot that and suddenly there was already smoke coming out.
the hot ceramic body heated some air, which was not forced forward and out 
any more,
and this air obviously went back into the plastic parts. there is a plastic
fan wheel and stuff which you definitely don't want melted.
there was no visible damage then but now i always put it vertical and let 
a few seconds cool
air through. (i guess the manual would recommend to do that but you know, 
i didn't read it..)


I have not yet mastered welding, i tried on a few different plastics, abs 
was the worst
and didn't work at all. i have not bought the welding shoe yet and so i 
tried the method similar
to acetylene torch welding, well, it does not work as good as acetylene 
torch welding...


I also do some soldering with the gun... if you want to solder together 
two wires
or solder on a connector it is sometimes easier than a soldering iron.
the advantage is you have no contact, only air.
In my opinion it is a "must have" tool.


Good luck with the welding!
And keep in mind some materials are easier to weld and bend.
i had some older plexiglass which was impossible to bend before getting 
blisters.


ST

Simon Whitehead wrote:

> On 11 Mar 2004, at 17:25, Phil wrote:
> 
> 
>>why welding?  does that give superior results to gluing?  PVC is
>>really easy to glue but looks a little messy if not careful.  I use
>>it for water pipes (pressured and unpressured) and it holds pretty
>>well.  Just curious.
>>
>>also, I made my tank with plexiglass and aquarium sealer.  Kind of
>>ugly but works just fine.  I was a little nervous but it has stood up
>>to a fair number of etchings.
> 
> 
> My application is OT.  It is a very large photographic wet bench - 
> about 86 x 54 inches - and I am prepared to use glue if necessary but I 
> would rather master the welding if I can.  I have got to get something 
> out of my expensive hot air gun!
> 
> Thanks again for the help...
> 

Some good information on hot air plastic welding can be
found here;
http://www.tempatron.co.uk/pdf_files/Principles.pdf

What are the dimensions of the tank ?
Welding is the only way to make fabricate tanks. PVC solvent glue 
is only suitable for joins with a large contact surface area and 
the forces are lateral, e.g. PVC pips fittings, flat sheet glued 
together.

Successful plastic welding requires correct air temperature, 
speed, rod size , nozzle shape, and how you direct the nozzle. 
Once you get these right then I'm sure you'll find welding easy 
and an extremely useful skill for chemical tank building, as 
Markus pointed out. Get lots of different rods to experiment 
with. Depending on the weld I use 1/8" round PVC, 5 mm or 7 mm 
triangle PVC rods for my tanks. Mostly 5 mm triangle.

Put it together with GOOP,  think it was talked about before on the 
list.

Ben

Ben H. Lanmon wrote:
> Put it together with GOOP,  think it was talked about before on the 
> list.
> 
> Ben


If you join two sheets of PVC edge on at 90 degrees and then 
force them apart by opening up the right angle and the plastic 
sheet breaks with the join remaining in tacked then you have a 
good join. I doubt that GOOP can achieve that level of bonding.

> Some good information on hot air plastic welding can be
> found here;
> http://www.tempatron.co.uk/pdf_files/Principles.pdf
>


I trust this is already in the links section under tank costruction?
if not it would be good if it gets there.

I agree that welding is superior, however it is also harder to master,
and expensive if you have to buy the gun. So if your application does allow
gluing i would not dismiss it completely as an option.

Do you all weld with a special welding shoe or someone with a round
nozzle only? i really expected slow speed welding to work (As described in 
the
pdf, but i couldn't get anything useful so far (i admit i have no tried 
enough maybe).

What are the ideal plastics to try with?
i only know ABS was a complete failure, it got charred and blistery and 
still
did not really fuse.
PVC did work a bit better, but still not perfect.

i expect polypropylene to work well, it is shaped nicely by heat.
What about polyethylene, the PE shrinks under heat strong, or is this
only true for the bottles and stuff? i would expect it to be problematic 
to weld?

Is there any surface preparation to do?
i have this acryl/plexiglas here that gets really soft (like soft rubber),
but it does not fuse with the welding rod of the same material,
if i heat more it charrs.

ST

>Do you all weld with a special welding shoe or someone with a round
>nozzle only? i really expected slow speed welding to work (As described in 
>the
>pdf, but i couldn't get anything useful so far (i admit i have no tried 
>enough maybe).

I definately use the special welding shoe. I would not want to try
differently.

>What are the ideal plastics to try with?
>i only know ABS was a complete failure, it got charred and blistery and 
>still
>did not really fuse.
>PVC did work a bit better, but still not perfect.
>
>i expect polypropylene to work well, it is shaped nicely by heat.
>What about polyethylene, the PE shrinks under heat strong, or is this
>only true for the bottles and stuff? i would expect it to be problematic 
>to weld?

In my experinece it all depends on the welding rod material and the
shoe. Again, I don't use rod's that one can buy but cut off stripes
from the sheets I'm working with. Like this you never have the wrong
material.

>Is there any surface preparation to do?

No

>i have this acryl/plexiglas here that gets really soft (like soft rubber),
>but it does not fuse with the welding rod of the same material,
>if i heat more it charrs.

I doubth it's really the same material then. 

Markus

I use a Seelye Electric hot air welder for plastics. There are low 
cost copies of this torch available on eBay. They go for less than 
$50 (US). Air can be used for welding PVC but nitrogen is used for 
almost every other type of plastic. You will need a tacking tip and a 
plain round tip. Another tip to consider is a speed welding tip which 
feeds the rod and welds at the same time.

I rigged up a valve that switches the torch to air during warmup and 
when idle. The nitrogen is switched in when welding. This conserves 
the nitrogen supply. The air and gas pressure is regulated to about 2 
PSI. 

I use nitrogen for all plastic types including PVC because it's 
easier to prevent charred edges and burning. The cleanest welds will 
always be made when using an inert gas. No amount of gluing will ever 
equal a properly welded joint.

Tom

>> i have this acryl/plexiglas here that gets really soft (like soft 
>> rubber),
>> but it does not fuse with the welding rod of the same material,
>> if i heat more it charrs.
>
> I doubth it's really the same material then.
>
> Markus

Well, it's cut of the same sheet.
it is hard transparent plastic when cold, when hot is flexes like rubber,
you can cut it with a knife over a broad temperature range, but it simply 
didn't
want to join, i heated it until it already started to char and pressed it 
together
hard and it just didn't fuse. (if you cut it with a knife and then heat
up the cut it will not fuse together again.)
i think the problem is it gets so soft. the material just flexes under the 
pressure.

I do not really need to weld this sheet, it may just be a kind very hard 
to weld.


You said you use the shoe sold in the DIY store? (from steinel)
then i will go and get one...

I cut the strips with a table saw (i rebuilt the proxxon saw with the 
burnt-up
12V motor into a good saw, now it has a toothed belt drive and a powerful 
220V motor.
Now it is really useable, as you say, for pcb cutting and such. it laughs 
at 4mm plastic.)
How wide do you cut your strips, square? (e.g. 4x4mm)

ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:
>>Some good information on hot air plastic welding can be
>>found here;
>>http://www.tempatron.co.uk/pdf_files/Principles.pdf
>>
> 
> 
> 
> I trust this is already in the links section under tank costruction?
> if not it would be good if it gets there.

I just checked, and the link is indeed listed under "Acid Etching 
and Electroplating Tank Construction"

> 
> I agree that welding is superior, however it is also harder to master,
> and expensive if you have to buy the gun. So if your application does allow
> gluing i would not dismiss it completely as an option.

Welding is a skill that's takes a fair amount of practice to 
learn. But it is often that welding is the only method suitable 
to joining plastic. You are correct saying that if something can 
be glued then its should be glued and not welded because its 
simpler. PVC pipe fittings is an example of glued plastic. 
Sometimes a the flat face of a PVC block or sheet can be glued to 
another.

> 
> Do you all weld with a special welding shoe or someone with a round
> nozzle only? i really expected slow speed welding to work (As described in 
> the
> pdf, but i couldn't get anything useful so far (i admit i have no tried 
> enough maybe).
> 
> What are the ideal plastics to try with?
> i only know ABS was a complete failure, it got charred and blistery and 
> still
> did not really fuse.
> PVC did work a bit better, but still not perfect.

I only have experience with PVC. But I've heard polypropylene 
(PP) is only slightly more difficult to weld. Each plastic 
required a different welding technique. I believe ABS is similar 
to PVC.
PVC and PP are the two most common tank building materials. PP 
can have a tendency to warp after welding and folding, especially 
if thin sheets are used (< 4 mm).


With regards to PVC welding, If you are experiencing burned 
surfaces then you have the temperature too high or you are moving 
the air nozzle two slow, which is allowing the plastic too much 
time to heat up. There is a fine balance between nozzle moving 
speed and temperature.

I have only ever welded with the round nozzle ("slow speed 
welding" as described in the PDF) , since I often welding inside 
tanks and around tight corners which cannot be done with a speed 
nozzle. Welding with a plain round nozzle will take more practice 
but has advantage of being more flexible in application.


> i expect polypropylene to work well, it is shaped nicely by heat.
> What about polyethylene, the PE shrinks under heat strong, or is this
> only true for the bottles and stuff? i would expect it to be problematic 
> to weld?
> 
> Is there any surface preparation to do?
> i have this acryl/plexiglas here that gets really soft (like soft rubber),
> but it does not fuse with the welding rod of the same material,
> if i heat more it charrs.
> 

Surface prep is important to get good contact area for fusing 
between the rod and plastic. Just as metal welding a V grove is 
often made in the location to be welded.

Some plastics, such as acrylic and polycarbonate will burn in air 
before reaching melting temperature. I don't know if they can be 
welded with hot air, but rather nitrogen might be needed. 
Nitrogen gas welding is not practical the hobbyist so I would 
stay with PVC. You can try hot air welding on some scrap PP to 
get familiar with, but I don't know how difficult PP is to work 
with. It took me many number of hours of practicing on scrap 
pieces before I could weld up tank.

Adam, Markus Z,

Will pvc (cemented) stand up to the chemicals of your THP system?
What about glued acrylic?

Next, Has anyone found a good US supplier of the "commercial" THP 
chemicals, like the Bungard chemistry Markus uses? Is Bungard sold in 
the USA?

I don't want to mess with the black hole techniques, or vacuuming 
away the expensive hole wall activator... 

Thank you in advance,

Ballendo 

 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell 
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
 You are correct saying that if something can 

> be glued then its should be glued and not welded because its 
> simpler. PVC pipe fittings is an example of glued plastic. 
> Sometimes a the flat face of a PVC block or sheet can be glued to 
> another.
>

ballendo wrote:

> Adam, Markus Z,
> 
> Will pvc (cemented) stand up to the chemicals of your THP system?
> What about glued acrylic?

PMMA (acrylic) solvent cement and PVC solvent cements (note they 
are not the same cements) are completely resistant to all 
chemicals used for PCB fabrication.

I intensely researched the chemical options, and in the US

For small scale, inking the holes is the most cost effective, and cleanest
method. ie.. if you cant afford the ink you definitely cant afford the
chems, and testing, and wetbench, ventilation, filtering, and effluent
processing. of desmear, carbon black. and associated neutralizers.

$75 for roughly 12500 holes <50Grams>, That's $0.006 per hole

BTW You can reuse the excess ink that you remove if you are very careful and
use a recovery jar in your vacuum line If it's getting to hard, I glob it on
the board, and put a few drops of acetone on it, and quickly smear it in. so
far it's worked perfectly.

The EPA has a great breakdown with enough info to point you toward the
makers of the chems
Also discusses all available techniques.
Conductive ink is listed as "currently in development" <g>
http://www.epa.gov/dfe/pubs/pwb/tech_rep/ctech/index.htm

As for PVC Cement and Acrylic glue, neither are really glue, they are both
fusers, that chemically melt the edges in contact and fuse them together -- 
never to be undone. I've built a number of saltwater filter boxes with clear
acrylic using the "glue" in a syringe just applying it into the joint, and I
have some that are 12years old, no problem. However saltwater is not
acid...I know that PP, HDPE, and PVC  all come before Acrylic or anysort of
ABS  for longterm chemical and temperature resistance

JT
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "ballendo" <ballendo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 6:53 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] THP line questions was Re: Welding PVC - OT


> Adam, Markus Z,
>
> Will pvc (cemented) stand up to the chemicals of your THP system?
> What about glued acrylic?
>
> Next, Has anyone found a good US supplier of the "commercial" THP
> chemicals, like the Bungard chemistry Markus uses? Is Bungard sold in
> the USA?
>
> I don't want to mess with the black hole techniques, or vacuuming
> away the expensive hole wall activator...
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Ballendo
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>  You are correct saying that if something can
> > be glued then its should be glued and not welded because its
> > simpler. PVC pipe fittings is an example of glued plastic.
> > Sometimes a the flat face of a PVC block or sheet can be glued to
> > another.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> > Next, Has anyone found a good US supplier of the "commercial" THP
> > chemicals, like the Bungard chemistry Markus uses? Is Bungard sold in
> > the USA?
> >

I don't think Bungard is sold here. You can easily purchase THP chem, if you
are an industrial account, and can jump through all of the regulatory hoops,
and don't mind 55 gallon drums. I have never found a small volume supplier
of THP chem.

I order from Alpha, and you can get just about any chemicals you can think
of. However Alpha sells analytical chem, not tech grade, and as such are
really really expensive. Also, they do some background checking, as for
obvious reason's they don't want their chem used for WMD or drugs. As such,
they really screen their customers, even if you order something inert.
Unfortunately, the prices and screening may keep things out of the hobbyist
realm. http://www.alfa.com/alf/index.htm

Another source which is easy to deal with, and pretty cheap is elemental
scientific. However you would need to prepare the solutions from scratch so
to speak.  http://www.elementalscientific.net/

Then theres think and tinker.
http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db=condink.dat&category=Conductive_Plating_Ink
http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db=copplat.dat&category=Acid_Copper_Consumables

Good luck
Ron

If you are a chemist with the ability to make it from scratch,
There is also http://www.postapplescientific.com/
You can probably find a distributor of elementals within driving range, thus
saving on shipping.

If you can find a recipe for a non cyanide, fluro, or formaldehyde... carbon
or graphite system. By all means - post it.

JT


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Amundson" <ron_amundson@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] THP line questions was Re: Welding PVC - OT


> > > Next, Has anyone found a good US supplier of the "commercial" THP
> > > chemicals, like the Bungard chemistry Markus uses? Is Bungard sold in
> > > the USA?
> > >
>
> I don't think Bungard is sold here. You can easily purchase THP chem, if
you
> are an industrial account, and can jump through all of the regulatory
hoops,
> and don't mind 55 gallon drums. I have never found a small volume supplier
> of THP chem.
>
> I order from Alpha, and you can get just about any chemicals you can think
> of. However Alpha sells analytical chem, not tech grade, and as such are
> really really expensive. Also, they do some background checking, as for
> obvious reason's they don't want their chem used for WMD or drugs. As
such,
> they really screen their customers, even if you order something inert.
> Unfortunately, the prices and screening may keep things out of the
hobbyist
> realm. http://www.alfa.com/alf/index.htm
>
> Another source which is easy to deal with, and pretty cheap is elemental
> scientific. However you would need to prepare the solutions from scratch
so
> to speak.  http://www.elementalscientific.net/
>
> Then theres think and tinker.
>
http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db=condink.dat&category=Conductive_Plating_Ink
>
http://www.thinktink.com/cgi-bin/cart.pl?db=copplat.dat&category=Acid_Copper_Consumables

>
> Good luck
> Ron
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Jeremy,

Nice link. Thank you!

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Taylor" <jt@j...> wrote:
> I intensely researched the chemical options, and in the US
> 
> For small scale, inking the holes is the most cost effective, and 
cleanest
> method. ie.. if you cant afford the ink you definitely cant afford 
the
> chems, and testing, and wetbench, ventilation, filtering, and 
effluent
> processing. of desmear, carbon black. and associated neutralizers.
> 
> $75 for roughly 12500 holes <50Grams>, That's $0.006 per hole
> 
> BTW You can reuse the excess ink that you remove if you are very 
careful and
> use a recovery jar in your vacuum line If it's getting to hard, I 
glob it on
> the board, and put a few drops of acetone on it, and quickly smear 
it in. so
> far it's worked perfectly.
> 
> The EPA has a great breakdown with enough info to point you toward 
the
> makers of the chems
> Also discusses all available techniques.
> Conductive ink is listed as "currently in development" <g>
> http://www.epa.gov/dfe/pubs/pwb/tech_rep/ctech/index.htm
> 
> As for PVC Cement and Acrylic glue, neither are really glue, they 
are both
> fusers, that chemically melt the edges in contact and fuse them 
together -- 
> never to be undone. I've built a number of saltwater filter boxes 
with clear
> acrylic using the "glue" in a syringe just applying it into the 
joint, and I
> have some that are 12years old, no problem. However saltwater is not
> acid...I know that PP, HDPE, and PVC  all come before Acrylic or 
anysort of
> ABS  for longterm chemical and temperature resistance
> 
> JT
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 6:53 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] THP line questions was Re: Welding PVC - OT
> 
> 
> > Adam, Markus Z,
> >
> > Will pvc (cemented) stand up to the chemicals of your THP system?
> > What about glued acrylic?
> >
> > Next, Has anyone found a good US supplier of the "commercial" THP
> > chemicals, like the Bungard chemistry Markus uses? Is Bungard 
sold in
> > the USA?
> >
> > I don't want to mess with the black hole techniques, or vacuuming
> > away the expensive hole wall activator...
> >
> > Thank you in advance,
> >
> > Ballendo
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
> > <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> >  You are correct saying that if something can
> > > be glued then its should be glued and not welded because its
> > > simpler. PVC pipe fittings is an example of glued plastic.
> > > Sometimes a the flat face of a PVC block or sheet can be glued 
to
> > > another.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and 
files:

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> Some plastics, such as acrylic and polycarbonate will burn in air
> before reaching melting temperature. I don't know if they can be
> welded with hot air, but rather nitrogen might be needed.
> Nitrogen gas welding is not practical the hobbyist so I would
> stay with PVC. You can try hot air welding on some scrap PP to
> get familiar with, but I don't know how difficult PP is to work
> with. It took me many number of hours of practicing on scrap
> pieces before I could weld up tank.
>
>
>

Thanks for all the tips, i will try again more seriously with the round 
nozzle.
The very absurd thing is that i should have learned plastic welding in the 
school i was.
for some very stupid, and very unknown to me, reason they cancelled the 
plastic course in
my year. There was so much stupid things we were made to waste time with 
and they did not
think that is important for electrical engineers (No idea how they got 
that impression).
I did learn metal welding there, which is kind of funny as it is just as 
likely to be
needed as plastic welding, i do not say the metal welding was one of the 
useless things,
but there WERE really useless things... I really regret i didn't learn it 
then...
(Wasting school material is always better when learning things, and 
instructions are not bad..)

So, i have to figure it out on my own now i think.

Thanks for the hints, i will ask again if problems occur..

ST

Hello Ballendo,

Specified tank materials for the bungard system are:
Cleaner DS270      : Stainless steel or PPE
Predip DS400       : PVC or PPE
Activator DS500    : PVC or PPE
Intensifier DS650  : PVC or PPE
Plating bath CU400 : Not found, but Polypropylene anode bags are OK

For this reason I decided to weld the tanks from Polypropylene (PPE)
To do this I made a special tip for my temperature controlled 
soldering station. It cuts through the joint and seals the two sheets 
of material together on the full depth of the sheet (3mm) Should 
probably also work for PVC and other thermoplasts.
However it takes some time to get the right speed, pressure etc.
Sometimes it works better then others, but I found it with my 
materials much more reliable than welding using a heat gun.
I uploaded some pictures of this tip to:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/homebrew_pcbs/lst?.dir=/impala&.s
rc=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/

Sorry they are a bit unsharp, but I had to use some additional lenses 
to get the close-up pictures, and not enough hands to hold it all 
steady.


Also I found some information on the chemicals themselves. I first 
ordered the Bungard chemicals for a starting point, but want to test 
the chemical compositions found as well. Those chemicals seem to work 
like the Bungard chemicals, so I can try one tank at a time to test 
if they are useable.

These make them yourself chemicals are based on United States Patent 
5,071,517 link:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?
Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=5
0&s1=5,071,517.WKU.&OS=PN/5,071,517&RS=PN/5,071,517

And, searching for the link, I also found the next two links, which 
might be of interrest. (I didn't read them yet)

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?
Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=5
0&s1=4,933,010.WKU.&OS=PN/4,933,010&RS=PN/4,933,010

http://nr.stic.gov.tw/ejournal/ProceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf

Apart from these links, I also found some more information, which I 
can dig up if anyone wants to start trying.


Regards,

Gertjan




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
wrote:
> Adam, Markus Z,
> 
> Will pvc (cemented) stand up to the chemicals of your THP system?
> What about glued acrylic?
> 
> Next, Has anyone found a good US supplier of the "commercial" THP 
> chemicals, like the Bungard chemistry Markus uses? Is Bungard sold 
in 

> the USA?
> 
> I don't want to mess with the black hole techniques, or vacuuming 
> away the expensive hole wall activator... 
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> 
> Ballendo 
> 
>  
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell 
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>  You are correct saying that if something can 
> > be glued then its should be glued and not welded because its 
> > simpler. PVC pipe fittings is an example of glued plastic. 
> > Sometimes a the flat face of a PVC block or sheet can be glued to 
> > another.
> >

Thank you.

Ballendo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gk_impala" <yahoo@i...> wrote:
> Hello Ballendo,
> 
> Specified tank materials for the bungard system are:
> Cleaner DS270      : Stainless steel or PPE
> Predip DS400       : PVC or PPE
> Activator DS500    : PVC or PPE
> Intensifier DS650  : PVC or PPE
> Plating bath CU400 : Not found, but Polypropylene anode bags are OK
> 
> For this reason I decided to weld the tanks from Polypropylene (PPE)
> To do this I made a special tip for my temperature controlled 
> soldering station. It cuts through the joint and seals the two 
sheets 
> of material together on the full depth of the sheet (3mm) Should 
> probably also work for PVC and other thermoplasts.
> However it takes some time to get the right speed, pressure etc.
> Sometimes it works better then others, but I found it with my 
> materials much more reliable than welding using a heat gun.
> I uploaded some pictures of this tip to:
> 
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/homebrew_pcbs/lst?.dir=/impala&.s
> rc=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/
> 
> Sorry they are a bit unsharp, but I had to use some additional 
lenses 
> to get the close-up pictures, and not enough hands to hold it all 
> steady.
> 
> 
> Also I found some information on the chemicals themselves. I first 
> ordered the Bungard chemicals for a starting point, but want to 
test 
> the chemical compositions found as well. Those chemicals seem to 
work 
> like the Bungard chemicals, so I can try one tank at a time to test 
> if they are useable.
> 
> These make them yourself chemicals are based on United States 
Patent 
> 5,071,517 link:
> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?
> 
Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=5
> 0&s1=5,071,517.WKU.&OS=PN/5,071,517&RS=PN/5,071,517
> 
> And, searching for the link, I also found the next two links, which 
> might be of interrest. (I didn't read them yet)
> 
> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?
> 
Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=5
> 0&s1=4,933,010.WKU.&OS=PN/4,933,010&RS=PN/4,933,010
> 
> http://nr.stic.gov.tw/ejournal/ProceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf
> 
> Apart from these links, I also found some more information, which I 
> can dig up if anyone wants to start trying.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Gertjan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> 
> wrote:
> > Adam, Markus Z,
> > 
> > Will pvc (cemented) stand up to the chemicals of your THP system?
> > What about glued acrylic?
> > 
> > Next, Has anyone found a good US supplier of the "commercial" THP 
> > chemicals, like the Bungard chemistry Markus uses? Is Bungard 
sold 
> in 
> > the USA?
> > 
> > I don't want to mess with the black hole techniques, or vacuuming 
> > away the expensive hole wall activator... 
> > 
> > Thank you in advance,
> > 
> > Ballendo 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell 
> > <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> >  You are correct saying that if something can 
> > > be glued then its should be glued and not welded because its 
> > > simpler. PVC pipe fittings is an example of glued plastic. 
> > > Sometimes a the flat face of a PVC block or sheet can be glued 
to 
> > > another.
> > >