Homebrew PCBs

i was just wondering if any one has tried putting water glass (sodium 
silicate) in a printer cartarage, printing the traces, then expose 
the water glass to carbon dioxide to make it harden, then etch,
i havent tryed it yet but will soon, i wiil put a dot on a pcb and (i 
have some gas to corbonate beer with)and harden the dot.i will see if 
the water glass will desolve in the etchant.  am working on a 
repeater for the ham club now and dont have time. if any one has 
tried this let me know,so i will not have to reinvent the wheel.
mebo31

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:49:17 -0000, pebo festus <mebo31@...> wrote:

> i was just wondering if any one has tried putting water glass (sodium 
> silicate) in a printer cartarage, printing the traces, then expose the 
> water glass to carbon dioxide to make it harden, then etch,
> i havent tryed it yet but will soon, i wiil put a dot on a pcb and (i 
> have some gas to corbonate beer with)and harden the dot.i will see if the 
> water glass will desolve in the etchant.  am working on a repeater for 
> the ham club now and dont have time. if any one has tried this let me 
> know,so i will not have to reinvent the wheel.
> mebo31
>

i tried acrylic floor polish in a hp bubblejet (thermo-head).
did not work. head gummed up instantly.

try a piezo-based head only...

i don't know if water glass is different in the result.

I had no piezo printer so i never tried further...

good luck...

ST

oh, jes, there is some company now making ink exactly for that, and heads
for it too.... in the archives may be the link...

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> i was just wondering if any one has tried putting water glass (sodium 
> silicate) in a printer cartarage, printing the traces, then expose 
> the water glass to carbon dioxide to make it harden, then etch,
> i havent tryed it yet but will soon, i wiil put a dot on a pcb and (i 
> have some gas to corbonate beer with)and harden the dot.i will see if 
> the water glass will desolve in the etchant.  am working on a 
> repeater for the ham club now and dont have time. if any one has 
> tried this let me know,so i will not have to reinvent the wheel.
> mebo31

It hardens in the presence of carbon dioxide?

I thought you'd just let it dry.

I suspect, as Stefan says, you'd need a piezo head inkjet, not a
bubblejet.

I think, correct me please if I'm wrong, that the only desktop inkjet
printer with piezo heads are Epson. I have an Epson 800 (black only)
inkjet that I'm half done cleaning out the heads so I can try Future
Floor polish in it. I don't have an empty cartridge for it, though, so
I'll have to rig up something else.

From the descriptions of water glass on the web, a thin coat of it may
not work. Worth a try!

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> i was just wondering if any one has tried putting water glass (sodium 
> silicate) in a printer cartarage, printing the traces, ...

Yikes! Corrosive, at least it is to flesh.

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_silicate.html

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0851590.html

Steve

Steve wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> 
>>i was just wondering if any one has tried putting water glass (sodium 
>>silicate) in a printer cartarage, printing the traces, ...
> 
> 
> Yikes! Corrosive, at least it is to flesh.
> 
> http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_silicate.html
> 
> http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0851590.html
> 
> Steve



The sodium silicates are alkaline, so any contact from acidic 
copper etchants will only neutralize and you end up with a 
solution of silica gel (colloidal SiO2) and the salt.

yes it hardens in the presents of carbon dioxide, they
use it in foundry work to harden the sand molds
instead of baking lindseed oil in the sand. i just
dont know how fast it will soften in liquid etchant or
if it will soften.
mebo




--- Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus"
> <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> > i was just wondering if any one has tried putting
> water glass (sodium 
> > silicate) in a printer cartarage, printing the
> traces, then expose 
> > the water glass to carbon dioxide to make it
> harden, then etch,
> > i havent tryed it yet but will soon, i wiil put a
> dot on a pcb and (i 
> > have some gas to corbonate beer with)and harden
> the dot.i will see if 
> > the water glass will desolve in the etchant.  am
> working on a 
> > repeater for the ham club now and dont have time.
> if any one has 
> > tried this let me know,so i will not have to
> reinvent the wheel.
> > mebo31
> 
> It hardens in the presence of carbon dioxide?
> 
> I thought you'd just let it dry.
> 
> I suspect, as Stefan says, you'd need a piezo head
> inkjet, not a
> bubblejet.
> 
> I think, correct me please if I'm wrong, that the
> only desktop inkjet
> printer with piezo heads are Epson. I have an Epson
> 800 (black only)
> inkjet that I'm half done cleaning out the heads so
> I can try Future
> Floor polish in it. I don't have an empty cartridge
> for it, though, so
> I'll have to rig up something else.
> 
> From the descriptions of water glass on the web, a
> thin coat of it may
> not work. Worth a try!
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 


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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell 
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
 
> The sodium silicates are alkaline, so any contact from acidic 
> copper etchants will only neutralize and you end up with a 
> solution of silica gel (colloidal SiO2) and the salt.

adam are you telling me that even if the water glass is set and hard 
the acids wiil desolve it?. i have been advised that gycol and water 
glass will also harden if mixed, will the acids soften this combo 
also?.

i was toying with the idea of coating the pcb with water glass and 
print with glycol. or maybe the other way around, coating with gylcol 
and printing with water glass. there just has to be a better way.
mebo

Dried water glass will dissolve in water, but very slowly. I'm not sure how 
fast dried water glass it will dissolve in acid. I know they make silica 
gel crystals by mixing a solution of water glass and sulfuric acid to form 
colloidal  SiO2, then its dried somehow.
I guess your best bet is to try it with dilute HCl, that's assuming some 
water glass is no too difficult to get hold of.

pebo festus wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell 
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>  
> 
>>The sodium silicates are alkaline, so any contact from acidic 
>>copper etchants will only neutralize and you end up with a 
>>solution of silica gel (colloidal SiO2) and the salt.
> 
> 
> adam are you telling me that even if the water glass is set and hard 
> the acids wiil desolve it?. i have been advised that gycol and water 
> glass will also harden if mixed, will the acids soften this combo 
> also?.
> 
> i was toying with the idea of coating the pcb with water glass and 
> print with glycol. or maybe the other way around, coating with gylcol 
> and printing with water glass. there just has to be a better way.
> mebo
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

Hi,

Do any of you guys know if there is someway to have Eagle check that the
routing matches the schematic after I have "assisted" the auto router?
IE have it check that I haven't hosed it?

Anthony

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Anthony Toft" <toftat@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 12:29 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing


> Hi,
> 
> Do any of you guys know if there is someway to have Eagle check that the
> routing matches the schematic after I have "assisted" the auto router?
> IE have it check that I haven't hosed it?

I don't use Eagle but I've played with it, for my sins. It's Tools > ERC

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@...
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

I tried the ERC after intentionally crossing Vcc and ground, it didn't
figure it out.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leon Heller [mailto:leon_heller@...] 
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 7:43 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anthony Toft" <toftat@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 12:29 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Do any of you guys know if there is someway to have Eagle 
> check that 
> > the routing matches the schematic after I have "assisted" the auto 
> > router? IE have it check that I haven't hosed it?
> 
> I don't use Eagle but I've played with it, for my sins. It's 
> Tools > ERC
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM
> Email: aqzf13@...
> My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system: 
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.h> tml
> 
> Be sure to 
> visit the group home and check for new 
> Bookmarks and files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits 
> for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. 
> Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. 
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----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Anthony Toft" <toftat@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 2:06 AM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing


> I tried the ERC after intentionally crossing Vcc and ground, it didn't
> figure it out.

It's something to do with ERC according to Help.

 I hate Eagle, it's the most counter-intuitive piece of crap I've ever come
across.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@...
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

I agree, but it was free, and now I have learnt enough to be at least a
little dangerous. I am loath to switch to another product, but I will if
something really cool shows up...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leon Heller [mailto:leon_heller@...] 
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:27 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anthony Toft" <toftat@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 2:06 AM
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing
> 
> 
> > I tried the ERC after intentionally crossing Vcc and 
> ground, it didn't 
> > figure it out.
> 
> It's something to do with ERC according to Help.
> 
>  I hate Eagle, it's the most counter-intuitive piece of crap 
> I've ever come across.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM
> Email: aqzf13@...
> My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system: 
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.h> tml
> 
> Be sure to 
> visit the group home and check for new 
> Bookmarks and files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
> 
> To unsubscribe 
> from this group, send an email to:  
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:  
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

thanks Adam, one can get water glass at most drug
stores, readily available. i guess i am just going to
have to run some tests. thanks again
mebo


--- Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:
> Dried water glass will dissolve in water, but very
> slowly. I'm not sure how 
> fast dried water glass it will dissolve in acid. I
> know they make silica 
> gel crystals by mixing a solution of water glass and
> sulfuric acid to form 
> colloidal  SiO2, then its dried somehow.
> I guess your best bet is to try it with dilute HCl,
> that's assuming some 
> water glass is no too difficult to get hold of.
> 
> pebo festus wrote:
> 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam
> Seychell 
> > <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> >  
> > 
> >>The sodium silicates are alkaline, so any contact
> from acidic 
> >>copper etchants will only neutralize and you end
> up with a 
> >>solution of silica gel (colloidal SiO2) and the
> salt.
> > 
> > 
> > adam are you telling me that even if the water
> glass is set and hard 
> > the acids wiil desolve it?. i have been advised
> that gycol and water 
> > glass will also harden if mixed, will the acids
> soften this combo 
> > also?.
> > 
> > i was toying with the idea of coating the pcb with
> water glass and 
> > print with glycol. or maybe the other way around,
> coating with gylcol 
> > and printing with water glass. there just has to
> be a better way.
> > mebo
> > 
> > 
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Bookmarks and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
> > 
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >  Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> >  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 


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OK, I think I found it...

DRC won't explicitly say they cross, but the rules will highlight errors
based on signal clearance. It successfully found my crossed connection
as two signals too close.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leon Heller [mailto:leon_heller@...] 
> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:27 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anthony Toft" <toftat@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 2:06 AM
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle question: Manual routing
> 
> 
> > I tried the ERC after intentionally crossing Vcc and 
> ground, it didn't 
> > figure it out.
> 
> It's something to do with ERC according to Help.
> 
>  I hate Eagle, it's the most counter-intuitive piece of crap 
> I've ever come across.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM
> Email: aqzf13@...
> My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system: 
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.h> tml
> 
> Be sure to 
> visit the group home and check for new 
> Bookmarks and files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> To visit your group on the web, go to:  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
> 
> To unsubscribe 
> from this group, send an email to:  
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:  
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

--- pebo festus <mebo31@...> wrote:
> thanks Adam, one can get water glass at most drug
> stores, readily available. i guess i am just going
> to
> have to run some tests. thanks again
> mebo
> 
> 
> --- Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...>
> wrote:
> they make silica gel crystals by mixing a solution
of > water glass and sulfuric acid to form colloidal 
SiO2, then its dried somehow.

In a lab setting, the collodial is collected on filter
paper using a vacum (Most of the h20 is removed in
this step) and then dryed in an oven to produce to
achieve the anhydrous form.


Best 

Marvin Dickens


=====
Registered Linux User No. 80253
If you use linux, get counted at: 
http://www.linuxcounter.org

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