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could this work for PCB milling?

could this work for PCB milling?

2004-01-10 by Justin

Firstly hello to the group - first time poster here :-)

Currently I produce my own PCB's using the UV/dev/etch method.
(homebrew UV box using insect killer lamps, etch tank is a cereal
container and fish tank pump)
This works well but is messy and time consuming (at least it is when I
do it!).

I would prefer a CNC milling solution and having searched around,
found what looks to be a promising 'off the shelf' solution:
http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis. At £189 for the kit
it would seem quite affordable, but is it up to the job?

I don't know much about this sort of thing, so wondered if anyone
could speculate on its suitability for prototype PCB work.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Justin.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] could this work for PCB milling?

2004-01-10 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Justin" <jcom10@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 12:27 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] could this work for PCB milling?


Firstly hello to the group - first time poster here :-)

Currently I produce my own PCB's using the UV/dev/etch method.
(homebrew UV box using insect killer lamps, etch tank is a cereal
container and fish tank pump)
This works well but is messy and time consuming (at least it is when I
do it!).

I would prefer a CNC milling solution and having searched around,
found what looks to be a promising 'off the shelf' solution:
http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis. At \ufffd189 for the kit
it would seem quite affordable, but is it up to the job?

I don't know much about this sort of thing, so wondered if anyone
could speculate on its suitability for prototype PCB work.

No, it isn't. It'll cope with light engraving, as they say, but it just
isn't fast or robust enough for PCB milling. You'd need something like a
CNC-controlled Taig mill - a lot more expensive.

Another problem with milling PCBs is that it is quite slow. Have a look at
the LPKF machines; they are state of the art for this type of prototyping
and take a couple of hours or more to produce a board.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@...
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

Re: could this work for PCB milling?

2004-01-10 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" <jcom10@y...> wrote:
> Firstly hello to the group - first time poster here :-)
> 
> Currently I produce my own PCB's using the UV/dev/etch method.
> (homebrew UV box using insect killer lamps, etch tank is a cereal
> container and fish tank pump)
> This works well but is messy and time consuming (at least it is 
when I
> do it!).
> 
> I would prefer a CNC milling solution and having searched around,
> found what looks to be a promising 'off the shelf' solution:
> http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis. At £189 for the 
kit
> it would seem quite affordable, but is it up to the job?
> 
> I don't know much about this sort of thing, so wondered if anyone
> could speculate on its suitability for prototype PCB work.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Cheers,
> Justin.

Interesting design.

I would assume that it will be able to do what you ask, but you need 
to also understand the tradeoffs.

I think the calculation is ....
( lead screw threads per inch times motor power times lead screw 
efficiency ) / 16 = pounds of force.

First, the stepper motors in a kit of that cost are most likely 
pretty small.  I would assume under the 50oz inch of a single stack 
NEMA23 stepper.  And more likly a pressed can stepper like found on a 
printer or fax machine.

That said, a pressed can stepper will be lucky to offer 15 oz-in of 
power.

a 1/4-20 screw is often the basis of these small machines, and 
threded rod has a generous efficiency of 20%.  That resolves to 

(15 x 20 x .2) / 16 = 3.75 pounds of force.   This is VERY light.

Therefore to get any work done, the machine either has to have a more 
fine screw, or use pullies to obtain a reduction in speed for an 
increase in power.

This results in a SLOW for said machine.

On the mechanical side, the frame may or may not be able to handle 
larger motors.   assuming it can, or you support it to do so, you can 
use larger motors.

NEMA23 single stack motors are not too uncommon so that would be the 
first up-grade.

Then a higher amp stepping motor controller would be a second upgrade.

This would then offer
50x20x.2/16 = 12.5 pounds of force.  This is still very light, but 
will probably have enought umph to push a dull cutter thru copper.

If I were in the market for a PCB machine, I would think long and 
hard about this, and probably buy it.    I am sure it can be 
strenghtened so it most likly can be upgraded.

I would considder this as a PCB-driller and etch boards by chemical, 
but of course try some mechanically etched boards.

I don't see this as a be all machine, but more as a first step into 
the wonderful world of CNC control.

Dave

Re: could this work for PCB milling?

2004-01-10 by mikezcnc

Hi 
Check http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CNC-PCB_Design/Stefan
as they talk a lot about the slides for CNC.

On a subject of cutting that was few weeks ago, that rolling cutter 
is great except it is difficult to control its direction of cutting. 
The optional fence guide is very imprecise and installation of it a 
different subject.

Personally I am not so sure anymore it is such a freat solution as I 
thought before. It does cut but how to keep the perfect right angles 
is another story.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> > Interesting design.
> 
> 
> are these drawer slides there on the picture?
> 
> 
> ST

Re: could this work for PCB milling?

2004-01-11 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> > Interesting design.
> 
> 
> are these drawer slides there on the picture?
> 
> 
> ST


It looks very much like drawer slides and the manual depicts the 
arrangement of drawer slides.

Also, since linear rails on 3 axis will cost more than the whole 
machine, I assume that these are drawer slides.

Dave

Re: could this work for PCB milling?

2004-01-12 by Tony Smith

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:08:19 -0000
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
Subject: Re: could this work for PCB milling?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" <jcom10@y...> wrote:
> Firstly hello to the group - first time poster here :-)
>
> Currently I produce my own PCB's using the UV/dev/etch method.
> (homebrew UV box using insect killer lamps, etch tank is a cereal
> container and fish tank pump)
> This works well but is messy and time consuming (at least it is
when I
> do it!).
>
> I would prefer a CNC milling solution and having searched around,
> found what looks to be a promising 'off the shelf' solution:
> http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis. At \ufffd189 for the
kit
> it would seem quite affordable, but is it up to the job?
>
> I don't know much about this sort of thing, so wondered if anyone
> could speculate on its suitability for prototype PCB work.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Cheers,
> Justin.


Have a look at http://www.gloomy-place.com/, follow the CNC link.

He brought one of these, and decided it wasn't quite what he wanted.

Dave's comments are right, it's a simple design, but lacks power & accuracy.
It doesn't use threaded rod btw, it uses dial cord, like on old radios.

After a bit of hack & slash, he eventually built a new one based on plans
from www.crankorgan.com.

He was happy with motors, they're NEMA 23 single stack, about 50 oz/inch
torque, pretty much the lower limit for most CNC machines.  You can easily
switch over to bigger motors once you've mortgaged your house.

Tony

Re: could this work for PCB milling?

2004-01-12 by mikezcnc

I talked to them few years ago and they admitted that there is not 
enough precision for what you want to do. I also suggest 
wwww.kleinbauer.com  Great plans and superior web-based support. Mike 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@r...> 
wrote:
> 
>    Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:08:19 -0000
>    From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
> Subject: Re: could this work for PCB milling?
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" <jcom10@y...> wrote:
> > Firstly hello to the group - first time poster here :-)
> >
> > Currently I produce my own PCB's using the UV/dev/etch method.
> > (homebrew UV box using insect killer lamps, etch tank is a cereal
> > container and fish tank pump)
> > This works well but is messy and time consuming (at least it is
> when I
> > do it!).
> >
> > I would prefer a CNC milling solution and having searched around,
> > found what looks to be a promising 'off the shelf' solution:
> > http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis. At £189 for the
> kit
> > it would seem quite affordable, but is it up to the job?
> >
> > I don't know much about this sort of thing, so wondered if anyone
> > could speculate on its suitability for prototype PCB work.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Justin.
> 
> 
> Have a look at http://www.gloomy-place.com/, follow the CNC link.
> 
> He brought one of these, and decided it wasn't quite what he wanted.
> 
> Dave's comments are right, it's a simple design, but lacks power & 
accuracy.
> It doesn't use threaded rod btw, it uses dial cord, like on old 
radios.
> 
> After a bit of hack & slash, he eventually built a new one based on 
plans
> from www.crankorgan.com.
> 
> He was happy with motors, they're NEMA 23 single stack, about 50 
oz/inch
> torque, pretty much the lower limit for most CNC machines.  You can 
easily
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> switch over to bigger motors once you've mortgaged your house.
> 
> Tony

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