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Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by Brad

Hello,

 

A while ago I bought some vintage PCB stock from 1973.  I was really excited
about this as it allowed me to go the last mile in making a reproduction
look authentic.  However, I have discovered to my dismay that the toner
transfer process is not working so well with these boards.

 

I've tried three media with my iron (I don't have a laminator):

 

Blue PCB transfer sheets.  They stick wonderfully to the modern stock but
not at all to this vintage stuff.

Yellow toner transfer paper.  Worked on the first two boards mostly, but now
won't stick to any of the others I have at all.

Magazine paper.  This sticks and I get 90% of the image, but that's it.  And
only with much greater effort than usual.

 

I have scrubbed these boards with comet and a scothbrite pad.  I note even
after doing so I still get a fine red powder residue when wiping with
acetone.  So I'm wondering if maybe this copper has just kinda gone bad over
44 years.

 

Another question - on a couple of boards I've used permanent marker to fill
in gaps, but the etchant always eats it away like it wasn't there.  Is there
a particular brand I should be using?   This has happened with both
vinegar/peroxide solutions and FeCl.

 

Thanks!

Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by kbyrne10@...

Staedtler Lumocolor Red works well and the FeCI does not affect it at all.
Bought on E-Bay four colors 10.00 or so USD. Have only tried red so far but it works for touch up real well.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by Keith B

I haven't been following the thread, so hopefully i'm not redundant.

That vintage board may be much heavier than you usually use
i.e. 2+ ounce copper etc. so you may need to heat it quite
 a bit longer to get up to transfer temperatures.

That stuff may be WELL oxidized, to the point you have to get drastic
to clean it enough for tt. I have used a medium wire wheel on a  bench
grinder in the past. The scratches may also help the toner to stick.

HTH
=================


On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 08:40:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Hello,
>
> 
>
>A while ago I bought some vintage PCB stock from 1973.  I was really excited
>about this as it allowed me to go the last mile in making a reproduction
>look authentic.  However, I have discovered to my dismay that the toner
>transfer process is not working so well with these boards.
>
> 
>
>I've tried three media with my iron (I don't have a laminator):
>
> 
>
>Blue PCB transfer sheets.  They stick wonderfully to the modern stock but
>not at all to this vintage stuff.
>
>Yellow toner transfer paper.  Worked on the first two boards mostly, but now
>won't stick to any of the others I have at all.
>
>Magazine paper.  This sticks and I get 90% of the image, but that's it.  And
>only with much greater effort than usual.
>
> 
>
>I have scrubbed these boards with comet and a scothbrite pad.  I note even
>after doing so I still get a fine red powder residue when wiping with
>acetone.  So I'm wondering if maybe this copper has just kinda gone bad over
>44 years.
>
> 
>
>Another question - on a couple of boards I've used permanent marker to fill
>in gaps, but the etchant always eats it away like it wasn't there.  Is there
>a particular brand I should be using?   This has happened with both
>vinegar/peroxide solutions and FeCl.
>
> 
>
>Thanks!
>
> 

---
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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by Brad

Yeah they are definitely pretty oxidized.. for example, where the sticker on
the plastic packaging sat this is noticeable difference in color.  And I
keep rubbing down with the acetone and still red dust comes off.  I'll try a
light sanding and see.. makes sense, these boards seem a little more
discoloured than the others.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 11:27 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

  

I haven't been following the thread, so hopefully i'm not redundant.

That vintage board may be much heavier than you usually use
i.e. 2+ ounce copper etc. so you may need to heat it quite
a bit longer to get up to transfer temperatures.

That stuff may be WELL oxidized, to the point you have to get drastic
to clean it enough for tt. I have used a medium wire wheel on a bench
grinder in the past. The scratches may also help the toner to stick.

HTH
=================

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 08:40:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Hello,
>
> 
>
>A while ago I bought some vintage PCB stock from 1973. I was really excited
>about this as it allowed me to go the last mile in making a reproduction
>look authentic. However, I have discovered to my dismay that the toner
>transfer process is not working so well with these boards.
>
> 
>
>I've tried three media with my iron (I don't have a laminator):
>
> 
>
>Blue PCB transfer sheets. They stick wonderfully to the modern stock but
>not at all to this vintage stuff.
>
>Yellow toner transfer paper. Worked on the first two boards mostly, but now
>won't stick to any of the others I have at all.
>
>Magazine paper. This sticks and I get 90% of the image, but that's it. And
>only with much greater effort than usual.
>
> 
>
>I have scrubbed these boards with comet and a scothbrite pad. I note even
>after doing so I still get a fine red powder residue when wiping with
>acetone. So I'm wondering if maybe this copper has just kinda gone bad over
>44 years.
>
> 
>
>Another question - on a couple of boards I've used permanent marker to fill
>in gaps, but the etchant always eats it away like it wasn't there. Is there
>a particular brand I should be using? This has happened with both
>vinegar/peroxide solutions and FeCl.
>
> 
>
>Thanks!
>
> 

---
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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by Brad

Okay I’ll get a few of those.  I thought Sharpie could handle it but apparently not.

 

I also purchased some dry-transfer PCB stuff.. has traces, pads, etc.. could use some of that.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 10:41 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

  

Staedtler Lumocolor Red works well and the FeCI does not affect it at all.

Bought on E-Bay four colors 10.00 or so USD. Have only tried red so far but it works for touch up real well.



 


 <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> 

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Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by allan.hale@...

Hi Brad,


On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two items, Straight, clear ammonia NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with several applications it should clean off the old board but may take several applications tro achieve your desired results.


One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS stores. This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works wonders on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the sandpaper or emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid cleaner products.


When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to bring up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing detergent to remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water rinse and dryoff, before you proceed to the toner transfer process. This practice should get your board almost surgically clean which is what you need for a really successful transfer process.


Best of luck in your endeavors!


Allan, WA9IRS

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by keith printy

We used to use fine steel wool to clean the oxide off
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2017 2:54 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

  

Yeah they are definitely pretty oxidized.. for example, where the sticker on
the plastic packaging sat this is noticeable difference in color.  And I
keep rubbing down with the acetone and still red dust comes off.  I'll try a
light sanding and see.. makes sense, these boards seem a little more
discoloured than the others.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 11:27 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

  

I haven't been following the thread, so hopefully i'm not redundant.

That vintage board may be much heavier than you usually use
i.e. 2+ ounce copper etc. so you may need to heat it quite
a bit longer to get up to transfer temperatures.

That stuff may be WELL oxidized, to the point you have to get drastic
to clean it enough for tt. I have used a medium wire wheel on a bench
grinder in the past. The scratches may also help the toner to stick.

HTH
=================

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 08:40:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Hello,
>
> 
>
>A while ago I bought some vintage PCB stock from 1973. I was really excited
>about thi! s as it allowed me to go the last mile in making a reproduction
>look authentic. However, I have discovered to my dismay that the toner
>transfer process is not working so well with these boards.
>
> 
>
>I've tried three media with my iron (I don't have a laminator):
>
> 
>
>Blue PCB transfer sheets. They stick wonderfully to the modern stock but
>not at all to this vintage stuff.
>
>Yellow toner transfer paper. Worked on the first two boards mostly, but now
>won't stick to any of the others I have at all.
>
>Magazine paper. This sticks and I get 90% of the image, but that's it. And
>only with much greater effort than usual.
>
> 
>
>I have scrubbed these boards with comet and a scothbrite pad. I note even
>after doing so I still get a fine red powder residue when wiping with
>acetone. So I'm wondering if maybe this copper has just kinda gone bad over
>44 years.
>
> 
>
>Another question - on a couple of boards I've used permanent marker to fill
>in gaps, but the etchant always eats it away like it wasn't there. Is there
>a particular brand I should be using? This has happened with both
>vinegar/peroxide solutions and FeCl.
>
> 
>
>Thanks!
>
> 

---
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http://www.avg.com

 


 
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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-06 by keith printy

Lemon juice may work also have seen it used as flux for soldering pc boards
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2017 3:42 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

  

Hi Brad,

 

On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two items,  Straight, clear ammonia  NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with several applications it should clean off the old board but may take several applications tro achieve your desired results.

 

One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS stores.  This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works wonders on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the sandpaper or emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid cleaner products.

 

When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to bring up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing detergent to remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water rinse and dryoff, before you proceed to the toner transfer process.  This practice should get your board almost surgically clean which is what you need for a really successful transfer process.

 

Best of luck in your endeavors!

 

Allan,   WA9IRS

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-07 by Harvey Altstadter

Brad,

A couple of thoughts:

I have used Bar Keeper's Friend on some stubbornly oxidized boards. It 
contains some oxalic acid, so wear gloves.

When a board is completely clean, it will support a continuous film of 
water. If you hold the board horizontal, and pour enough water on it to 
cover it, the water spreads out, and will pull away from any place that 
is not clean.  Pat the board dry with clean paper towels.

Harvey A
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 7/6/2017 12:41 PM, allan.hale@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>
> Hi Brad,
>
>
> On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two items,  
> Straight, clear ammonia  NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with several 
> applications it should clean off the old board but may take several 
> applications tro achieve your desired results.
>
>
> One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS 
> stores.  This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works wonders 
> on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the sandpaper or 
> emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid cleaner products.
>
>
> When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to bring 
> up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing detergent to 
> remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water rinse and dryoff, 
> before you proceed to the toner transfer process.  This practice 
> should get your board almost surgically clean which is what you need 
> for a really successful transfer process.
>
>
> Best of luck in your endeavors!
>
>
> Allan,   WA9IRS
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-07 by Brad

Thanks guys.  Going to take another run at it.

 

Question for those that iron – I have read competing schools of thought.. some say you need tons of pressure, others say you just need consistent heat.  Thoughts?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 8:09 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

  

Brad,

A couple of thoughts:

I have used Bar Keeper's Friend on some stubbornly oxidized boards. It contains some oxalic acid, so wear gloves.

When a board is completely clean, it will support a continuous film of water. If you hold the board horizontal, and pour enough water on it to cover it, the water spreads out, and will pull away from any place that is not clean.  Pat the board dry with clean paper towels.

Harvey A

On 7/6/2017 12:41 PM, allan.hale@... <mailto:allan.hale@...>  [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

  

Hi Brad,

 

On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two items,  Straight, clear ammonia  NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with several applications it should clean off the old board but may take several applications tro achieve your desired results.

 

One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS stores.  This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works wonders on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the sandpaper or emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid cleaner products.

 

When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to bring up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing detergent to remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water rinse and dryoff, before you proceed to the toner transfer process.  This practice should get your board almost surgically clean which is what you need for a really successful transfer process.

 

Best of luck in your endeavors!

 

Allan,   WA9IRS

 



 


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Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-07 by leeleduc@...

I use "Tarn-X". It's a cleaner for copper bottom pans and silverware. You can find it in the cleaners isle of the supermarket. Another brand that works well is Wrights Copper Cream.

Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems IRON pressure

2017-07-07 by Rob

I could not get consistent results with a clothes iron so I resorted to 
steel plates:

http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/hotcakes.html
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 07/07/2017 12:32 AM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>
> Thanks guys.  Going to take another run at it.
>
> Question for those that iron \u2013 I have read competing schools of 
> thought.. some say you need tons of pressure, others say you just need 
> consistent heat.  Thoughts?
>
> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 6, 2017 8:09 PM
> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems
>
> Brad,
>
> A couple of thoughts:
>
> I have used Bar Keeper's Friend on some stubbornly oxidized boards. It 
> contains some oxalic acid, so wear gloves.
>
> When a board is completely clean, it will support a continuous film of 
> water. If you hold the board horizontal, and pour enough water on it 
> to cover it, the water spreads out, and will pull away from any place 
> that is not clean.  Pat the board dry with clean paper towels.
>
> Harvey A
>
> On 7/6/2017 12:41 PM, allan.hale@... <mailto:allan.hale@...> 
> [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>
>     Hi Brad,
>
>     On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two
>     items,  Straight, clear ammonia  NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with
>     several applications it should clean off the old board but may
>     take several applications tro achieve your desired results.
>
>     One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS
>     stores.  This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works
>     wonders on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the
>     sandpaper or emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid
>     cleaner products.
>
>     When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to
>     bring up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing
>     detergent to remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water
>     rinse and dryoff, before you proceed to the toner transfer
>     process.  This practice should get your board almost surgically
>     clean which is what you need for a really successful transfer process.
>
>     Best of luck in your endeavors!
>
>     Allan,   WA9IRS
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>
> 	
>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com 
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> 
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems IRON pressure

2017-07-08 by Brad

Will do.  In the last day I have managed to pull off two perfect transfers with magazine paper and my iron.  I clean the boards more heavily.  When ironing, I take a 10 minute pause and then resume.. for some reason it seems to help.

 

However one issue I’m seeing and had before with the magazine paper is that the printer is not putting enough toner down.  You can see a pixelation that looks just like what you see if you look really close at a magazine photo.  In spots, even though it has clearly lifted all the toner from the paper the toner is thin enough to leave micro traces of visible copper, which in turn gets attacked or pitted by the etchant.  Not sure how to get a thicker toner down or if maybe my ‘compatible’ toner is part of the problem.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 7, 2017 6:56 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems IRON pressure

 

  

Brad,

Have a look at the videos in the files section of my project:

https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-tl-320b-one-pass-pcb-toner-xfer



 


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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems IRON pressure

2017-07-08 by Howard Chester

I no longer use the toner transfer method to produce my PCB's(I use UV exposure), I remember using "Orange scented household cleaner" as an adhesive to help the toner to adhere to the PCB with consistant results.
Orange scented spray household cleaners contain Citronella Oil. This is a slow solvent for the Toner when heated.
Prepare to PCB as usual, spray a small amount of cleaner on a paper kitchen towel. Apply a thin film to the PCB and carefully rub with a a clean paper towel until you have removed the cleaner(no trace on the paper towel). Iron as usual.
The fine layer of cleaner left behind after wiping clean dissolves a fine top layer of the toner and "sticks" the toner to the PCB.
A point to note, when removing the cleaner check the paper for any black deposists. Deposists indicate that the board still needs cleaning properly.
Hope this helps, chester

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems IRON pressure

2017-07-08 by Rob

Check out your print image quality options.
Mine defaults to NORMAL and had the option for DRAFT...which uses less 
toner and is lighter.
Perhaps your default is set to DRAFT.
You can always print again on the same paper to lay more toner layers.

Noting that toner will ALWAYS have microscopic pitting that can be 
attacked and etched
so I have resorted to always using the widest traces possible ... not 
the thinnest traces possible
and...
always tracing over the toner with a black Sharpie or EDDING 404 or 
STAEDLER LUMOCOLOR PERMANENT
marker.
It might be time consuming but I am not manufacturing items to sell.... 
its just a hobby.
  http://www.learnmorsecode.com/regen/00regen.html
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 07/08/2017 10:04 AM, 'Brad' unclefalter@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>
> Will do.  In the last day I have managed to pull off two perfect 
> transfers with magazine paper and my iron.  I clean the boards more 
> heavily.  When ironing, I take a 10 minute pause and then resume.. for 
> some reason it seems to help.
>
> However one issue I\u2019m seeing and had before with the magazine paper is 
> that the printer is not putting enough toner down.  You can see a 
> pixelation that looks just like what you see if you look really close 
> at a magazine photo.  In spots, even though it has clearly lifted all 
> the toner from the paper the toner is thin enough to leave micro 
> traces of visible copper, which in turn gets attacked or pitted by the 
> etchant.  Not sure how to get a thicker toner down or if maybe my 
> \u2018compatible\u2019 toner is part of the problem.
>
> *From:*Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 7, 2017 6:56 PM
> *To:* Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems 
> IRON pressure
>
> Brad,
>
> Have a look at the videos in the files section of my project:
>
> https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-tl-320b-one-pass-pcb-toner-xfer
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>
> 	
>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com 
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> 
>
>
>

Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-08 by kbyrne10@...

I have found that only genuine HP Laser ink works not replacement ink.
Do you have software with printer to set density to 1200 times 1200 DPI?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-09 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

If your HP printer is newer than the one I have, you can use LJConfig to control the amount of toner laid down

<http://ljconfig.soft112.com/>

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it! 
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin 
The writing is on the wall. 
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 7/8/17, kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems
 To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, July 8, 2017, 4:59 PM
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       I have found that only genuine HP Laser ink works
 not replacement ink.Do you have software with
 printer to set density to 1200 times 1200 DPI?
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv4326670882 #yiv4326670882 --

Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-09 by AncelB

Genuine or non oem HP toner works for me. For the pitting problem I 
transfer craft metallic foil on top of the toner before etching. It's a 
well known practice and reliable.

Rather than using acetone or citronella to prepare/clean the copper I 
use 220 grit sandpaper and an iso-propyl wipe which makes the toner 
'grip' the oil free copper. Even fingerprints can interfere so handle 
the edges of the PCB. As a test I polished/lapped copper and tried the 
identical transfer with poor results all other things being the same.

Also, before I did the metal foiling, I used to use a silver sharpie to 
'fill' in the toner transfer for any breaks or potential pitting and 
then etch.

I have done literally hundreds of double sided boards and even boards 
for RF use to 1Ghz with toner transfer. It works.

Ancel

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems ios-propyl wipe

2017-07-09 by Rob

I had not tried alcohol.
I've been using 220 grit sandpaper per your advice...since  a year ago?
Then I used acetone to clean up the fingerprint oil and sanding dirt.
Not that fingerprints are a problem... I always wear heavy 9mil nitrile 
gloves when playing with PCBs.

Is the iso-prpyl wipe anything more than or different than using a tough 
paper towel and 91% alcohol?

I had experimented with transfer craft metallic foil but really didn't 
need the foil after using a Sharpie.
I can see using the foil for massively complicated or detailed circuits 
that would test patience tracing a whole board with a Sharpie. But 
nothing I do is that complicated.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 07/09/2017 10:29 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>
> Genuine or non oem HP toner works for me. For the pitting problem I
> transfer craft metallic foil on top of the toner before etching. It's a
> well known practice and reliable.
>
> Rather than using acetone or citronella to prepare/clean the copper I
> use 220 grit sandpaper and an iso-propyl wipe which makes the toner
> 'grip' the oil free copper. Even fingerprints can interfere so handle
> the edges of the PCB. As a test I polished/lapped copper and tried the
> identical transfer with poor results all other things being the same.
>
> Also, before I did the metal foiling, I used to use a silver sharpie to
> 'fill' in the toner transfer for any breaks or potential pitting and
> then etch.
>
> I have done literally hundreds of double sided boards and even boards
> for RF use to 1Ghz with toner transfer. It works.
>
> Ancel
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems ios-propyl wipe

2017-07-09 by michael tenore

I have been using Toner Transfer with very good results!
I scrub my boards with very fine scotch-brite pads. They are grey colored and they are available 
at auto parts stores. They are finer than 220 grit and give good tooth for the toner to attach to.The green ones in the supermarket are usable but they are a coarser grit.I use Isopropyl alcohol or acetone. the other cleaners are ok also but you have to rinse the board well.
I gave up on using an iron! I found a top of the line GBC H525 laminator  on line and I got it withshipping for less than $100 on ebay. I pass my boards through 10 times.
regards
Mike
 

    On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:07 AM, "Rob roomberg@ptd.net [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

      I had not tried alcohol.
 I've been using 220 grit sandpaper per your advice...since  a year ago?
 Then I used acetone to clean up the fingerprint oil and sanding dirt.
 Not that fingerprints are a problem... I always wear heavy 9mil nitrile gloves when playing with PCBs.  
 
 Is the iso-prpyl wipe anything more than or different than using a tough paper towel and 91% alcohol?
 
 I had experimented with transfer craft metallic foil but really didn't need the foil after using a Sharpie.
 I can see using the foil for massively complicated or detailed  circuits that would test patience tracing a whole board with a Sharpie. But nothing I do is that complicated.
  
 
 
 On 07/09/2017 10:29 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
  
    Genuine or non oem HP toner works for me. For the pitting problem I 
 transfer craft metallic foil on top of the toner before etching. It's a 
 well known practice and reliable.
 
 Rather than using acetone or citronella to prepare/clean the copper I 
 use 220 grit sandpaper and an iso-propyl wipe which makes the toner 
 'grip' the oil free copper. Even fingerprints can interfere so handle 
 the edges of the PCB. As a test I polished/lapped copper and tried the 
 identical transfer with poor results all other things being the same.
 
 Also, before I did the metal foiling, I used to use a silver sharpie to 
 'fill' in the toner transfer for any breaks or potential pitting and 
 then etch.
 
 I have done literally hundreds of double sided boards and even boards 
 for RF use to 1Ghz with toner transfer. It works.
 
 Ancel

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems ios-propyl wipe

2017-07-10 by Harvey White

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 21:31:37 +0000 (UTC), you wrote:

>I have been using Toner Transfer with very good results!
>I scrub my boards with very fine scotch-brite pads. They are grey colored and they are available 
>at auto parts stores. They are finer than 220 grit and give good tooth for the toner to attach to.The green ones in the supermarket are usable but they are a coarser grit.I use Isopropyl alcohol or acetone. the other cleaners are ok also but you have to rinse the board well.

What I use:

scrub the boards with 1000 or 1200 grit wet/dry paper.  Using it wet
is fine.

use something like bon-ami to clean the boards.

rinse them.

wipe with acetone to eliminate oil.  You may see some copper dust.

Print and then run through laminator.

What you want is enough heat to make the toner adhere.  For small
boards (less than 4x6 inches) I use about 6 to 8 passes.  For larger
boards (perhaps more than that) I'd do 8 or so.

What you want is the board to be hot enough to soften the toner, make
it sticky, and let it adhere to the board.

I then (after the board runs through 6 or 8 times, 3 or 4 upwards, 3
or 4 downwards), dump it directly into room temperature water.

blow dry with hair dryer

run through same laminator twice with green foil (not tried other
ones).

Let that cool

peel off

etch

sand off toner with wet/dry paper, 1000 grit is fine.

(keeps acetone dissolved toner from discoloring board.  Your choice.)

Tin as needed, 

rinse!!!

(tin/lead is nasty stuff)


Dry in sun, etc

rinse and use.

10/10 is reliable with this.  Never tried 8/8.




Harvey

>I gave up on using an iron! I found a top of the line GBC H525 laminator\ufffd on line and I got it withshipping for less than $100 on ebay. I pass my boards through 10 times.
>regards
>Mike
> 
>
>    On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:07 AM, "Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>
> \ufffd    I had not tried alcohol.
> I've been using 220 grit sandpaper per your advice...since\ufffd a year ago?
> Then I used acetone to clean up the fingerprint oil and sanding dirt.
> Not that fingerprints are a problem... I always wear heavy 9mil nitrile gloves when playing with PCBs.\ufffd 
> 
> Is the iso-prpyl wipe anything more than or different than using a tough paper towel and 91% alcohol?
> 
> I had experimented with transfer craft metallic foil but really didn't need the foil after using a Sharpie.
> I can see using the foil for massively complicated or detailed\ufffd circuits that would test patience tracing a whole board with a Sharpie. But nothing I do is that complicated.
> \ufffd
> 
> 
> On 07/09/2017 10:29 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>  
> \ufffd  Genuine or non oem HP toner works for me. For the pitting problem I 
> transfer craft metallic foil on top of the toner before etching. It's a 
> well known practice and reliable.
> 
> Rather than using acetone or citronella to prepare/clean the copper I 
> use 220 grit sandpaper and an iso-propyl wipe which makes the toner 
> 'grip' the oil free copper. Even fingerprints can interfere so handle 
> the edges of the PCB. As a test I polished/lapped copper and tried the 
> identical transfer with poor results all other things being the same.
> 
> Also, before I did the metal foiling, I used to use a silver sharpie to 
> 'fill' in the toner transfer for any breaks or potential pitting and 
> then etch.
> 
> I have done literally hundreds of double sided boards and even boards 
> for RF use to 1Ghz with toner transfer. It works.
> 
> Ancel
> 
>   
> 
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>

Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems ios-propyl wipe

2017-07-10 by AncelB

91% isopropyl and Bounty paper towels work fine for cleaning the copper 
after sanding it. Don't use cheap tissue that sheds. Also for double 
sided boards I drill the registration pin holes before sanding so the 
sanding removes burrs.

Here is an example of a double sided board done with this method, note 
the 'copper' silk screen values etc.

https://hackaday.io/project/25741/gallery#86a5661397dafe0b3c4ffcc3110e0288

Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-10 by don@...

I first used toner transfer paper purchased at Digikey over 20 years ago.
Discovered the whole process to be RUBBISH...
So it seams still is.
Digikey discontinued to carry it after everyone else failed too.
I get 98% success with presensitsed photo etch with a clear positive image on film.

-

Don Matthys
dba Don's Light and Magic
www.dlmparts.com
don@dlmparts.com

John Adams wrote that the Fourth of July "...ought to be celebrated by pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations from one end of this continent to the other..."

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-10 by Harvey White

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 15:16:07 +0000, you wrote:

>I first used toner transfer paper purchased at Digikey over 20 years ago.
>Discovered the whole process to be RUBBISH...

The clear film transfer is something I've not had a lot of luck with.
The Pulsar paper, once you understand the limits of the process, will
work.
>
>So it seams still is.
>Digikey discontinued to carry it after everyone else failed too.
>I get 98% success with presensitsed photo etch with a clear positive image on film.
>

Photoetch is the best method, but it has problems as well, a good
opaque pattern is key, and a good coated board is also key.  

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>-
>
>Don Matthys
>dba Don's Light and Magic
>www.dlmparts.com
>don@...
>
>John Adams wrote that the Fourth of July "...ought to be celebrated by pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations from one end of this continent to the other..."

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

2017-07-11 by Brad

Are you using an iron or a laminator?  I’m finding I get very good results with iron if I do the prep properly, but there’s always that one spot that no matter how much heat or pressure you put on it, the toner doesn’t stick.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 7:29 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

  

Genuine or non oem HP toner works for me. For the pitting problem I 
transfer craft metallic foil on top of the toner before etching. It's a 
well known practice and reliable.

Rather than using acetone or citronella to prepare/clean the copper I 
use 220 grit sandpaper and an iso-propyl wipe which makes the toner 
'grip' the oil free copper. Even fingerprints can interfere so handle 
the edges of the PCB. As a test I polished/lapped copper and tried the 
identical transfer with poor results all other things being the same.

Also, before I did the metal foiling, I used to use a silver sharpie to 
'fill' in the toner transfer for any breaks or potential pitting and 
then etch.

I have done literally hundreds of double sided boards and even boards 
for RF use to 1Ghz with toner transfer. It works.

Ancel



 


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