Homebrew_PCBs

On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 08:40:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Hello,
>
>
>
>A while ago I bought some vintage PCB stock from 1973. I was really excited
>about this as it allowed me to go the last mile in making a reproduction
>look authentic. However, I have discovered to my dismay that the toner
>transfer process is not working so well with these boards.
>
>
>
>I've tried three media with my iron (I don't have a laminator):
>
>
>
>Blue PCB transfer sheets. They stick wonderfully to the modern stock but
>not at all to this vintage stuff.
>
>Yellow toner transfer paper. Worked on the first two boards mostly, but now
>won't stick to any of the others I have at all.
>
>Magazine paper. This sticks and I get 90% of the image, but that's it. And
>only with much greater effort than usual.
>
>
>
>I have scrubbed these boards with comet and a scothbrite pad. I note even
>after doing so I still get a fine red powder residue when wiping with
>acetone. So I'm wondering if maybe this copper has just kinda gone bad over
>44 years.
>
>
>
>Another question - on a couple of boards I've used permanent marker to fill
>in gaps, but the etchant always eats it away like it wasn't there. Is there
>a particular brand I should be using? This has happened with both
>vinegar/peroxide solutions and FeCl.
>
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>

---
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Hi Brad,

On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two items,  Straight, clear ammonia  NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with several applications it should clean off the old board but may take several applications tro achieve your desired results.

One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS stores.  This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works wonders on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the sandpaper or emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid cleaner products.

When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to bring up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing detergent to remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water rinse and dryoff, before you proceed to the toner transfer process.  This practice should get your board almost surgically clean which is what you need for a really successful transfer process.

Best of luck in your endeavors!

Allan,   WA9IRS

Brad,

A couple of thoughts:

I have used Bar Keeper's Friend on some stubbornly oxidized boards. It contains some oxalic acid, so wear gloves.

When a board is completely clean, it will support a continuous film of water. If you hold the board horizontal, and pour enough water on it to cover it, the water spreads out, and will pull away from any place that is not clean.  Pat the board dry with clean paper towels.

 

Hi Brad,

On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two items,  Straight, clear ammonia  NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with several applications it should clean off the old board but may take several applications tro achieve your desired results.

One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS stores.  This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works wonders on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the sandpaper or emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid cleaner products.

When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to bring up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing detergent to remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water rinse and dryoff, before you proceed to the toner transfer process.  This practice should get your board almost surgically clean which is what you need for a really successful transfer process.

Best of luck in your endeavors!

Allan,   WA9IRS

 

Thanks guys.  Going to take another run at it.

 

Question for those that iron – I have read competing schools of thought.. some say you need tons of pressure, others say you just need consistent heat.  Thoughts?

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 8:09 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems

 

 

Brad,

A couple of thoughts:

I have used Bar Keeper's Friend on some stubbornly oxidized boards. It contains some oxalic acid, so wear gloves.

When a board is completely clean, it will support a continuous film of water. If you hold the board horizontal, and pour enough water on it to cover it, the water spreads out, and will pull away from any place that is not clean.  Pat the board dry with clean paper towels.

Harvey A

On 7/6/2017 12:41 PM, allan.hale@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Hi Brad,

 

On the severely oxidized portion of the boards you can try two items,  Straight, clear ammonia  NH4OH or sudsy ammonia with several applications it should clean off the old board but may take several applications tro achieve your desired results.

 

One other item to try is "Tarn-X" available at Walgreens and CVS stores.  This product is a thio-urea based cleaner and works wonders on PC boards based on personal experience. I'd avoid the sandpaper or emery cloth abrasive materials in favor of the liquid cleaner products.

 

When you get the copper mostly clean you could use "Brasso" to bring up a shine on the board, then wash with Dawn dishwashing detergent to remove any remaining oils followed by a clean water rinse and dryoff, before you proceed to the toner transfer process.  This practice should get your board almost surgically clean which is what you need for a really successful transfer process.

 

Best of luck in your endeavors!

 

Allan,   WA9IRS

 

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

 

 

Will do.  In the last day I have managed to pull off two perfect transfers with magazine paper and my iron.  I clean the boards more heavily.  When ironing, I take a 10 minute pause and then resume.. for some reason it seems to help.

 

However one issue I’m seeing and had before with the magazine paper is that the printer is not putting enough toner down.  You can see a pixelation that looks just like what you see if you look really close at a magazine photo.  In spots, even though it has clearly lifted all the toner from the paper the toner is thin enough to leave micro traces of visible copper, which in turn gets attacked or pitted by the etchant.  Not sure how to get a thicker toner down or if maybe my ‘compatible’ toner is part of the problem.

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, July 7, 2017 6:56 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems IRON pressure

 

 

Brad,

Have a look at the videos in the files section of my project:

https://hackaday.io/project/3363-apache-al13p-tl-320b-one-pass-pcb-toner-xfer

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

 

On Sat, 7/8/17, kbyrne10@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vintage PCB toner transfer problems
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 8, 2017, 4:59 PM


 









I have found that only genuine HP Laser ink works
not replacement ink.Do you have software with
printer to set density to 1200 times 1200 DPI?









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Genuine or non oem HP toner works for me. For the pitting problem I
transfer craft metallic foil on top of the toner before etching. It's a
well known practice and reliable.

Rather than using acetone or citronella to prepare/clean the copper I
use 220 grit sandpaper and an iso-propyl wipe which makes the toner
'grip' the oil free copper. Even fingerprints can interfere so handle
the edges of the PCB. As a test I polished/lapped copper and tried the
identical transfer with poor results all other things being the same.

Also, before I did the metal foiling, I used to use a silver sharpie to
'fill' in the toner transfer for any breaks or potential pitting and
then etch.

I have done literally hundreds of double sided boards and even boards
for RF use to 1Ghz with toner transfer. It works.

Ancel

>I have been using Toner Transfer with very good results!
>I scrub my boards with very fine scotch-brite pads. They are grey colored and they are available
>at auto parts stores. They are finer than 220 grit and give good tooth for the toner to attach to.The green ones in the supermarket are usable but they are a coarser grit.I use Isopropyl alcohol or acetone. the other cleaners are ok also but you have to rinse the board well.

>I gave up on using an iron! I found a top of the line GBC H525 laminator  on line and I got it withshipping for less than $100 on ebay. I pass my boards through 10 times.
>regards
>Mike
>
>
> On Sunday, July 9, 2017 11:07 AM, "Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>   I had not tried alcohol.
> I've been using 220 grit sandpaper per your advice...since  a year ago?
> Then I used acetone to clean up the fingerprint oil and sanding dirt.
> Not that fingerprints are a problem... I always wear heavy 9mil nitrile gloves when playing with PCBs. 
>
> Is the iso-prpyl wipe anything more than or different than using a tough paper towel and 91% alcohol?
>
> I had experimented with transfer craft metallic foil but really didn't need the foil after using a Sharpie.
> I can see using the foil for massively complicated or detailed  circuits that would test patience tracing a whole board with a Sharpie. But nothing I do is that complicated.
>  
>
>
> On 07/09/2017 10:29 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
>
>   Genuine or non oem HP toner works for me. For the pitting problem I
> transfer craft metallic foil on top of the toner before etching. It's a
> well known practice and reliable.
>
> Rather than using acetone or citronella to prepare/clean the copper I
> use 220 grit sandpaper and an iso-propyl wipe which makes the toner
> 'grip' the oil free copper. Even fingerprints can interfere so handle
> the edges of the PCB. As a test I polished/lapped copper and tried the
> identical transfer with poor results all other things being the same.
>
> Also, before I did the metal foiling, I used to use a silver sharpie to
> 'fill' in the toner transfer for any breaks or potential pitting and
> then etch.
>
> I have done literally hundreds of double sided boards and even boards
> for RF use to 1Ghz with toner transfer. It works.
>
> Ancel
>
>
>
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>
>

>I first used toner transfer paper purchased at Digikey over 20 years ago.
>Discovered the whole process to be RUBBISH...

>
>So it seams still is.
>Digikey discontinued to carry it after everyone else failed too.
>I get 98% success with presensitsed photo etch with a clear positive image on film.
>

>-
>
>Don Matthys
>dba Don's Light and Magic
>www.dlmparts.com
>don@...
>
>John Adams wrote that the Fourth of July "...ought to be celebrated by pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations from one end of this continent to the other..."