Homebrew_PCBs

I own a TL902 Thermal Laminator By Scotch and viewed a different GBC post of a repair parts manual and need to know if any one can assist me in locating a parts type manual for mine so I may try to increase the heat of it up to 340 degrees. I have no idea what the heat is now as my manual and box does not state that only two settings available. One 3 mil second one 5 mil

with 5 mil I assume is hotter.

 

I own a TL902 Thermal Laminator By Scotch and viewed a different GBC post of a repair parts manual and need to know if any one can assist me in locating a parts type manual for mine so I may try to increase the heat of it up to 340 degrees. I have no idea what the heat is now as my manual and box does not state that only two settings available. One 3 mil second one 5 mil

with 5 mil I assume is hotter.

_

Kevin,

Here is a link to a site that explains the difference between the thermocouple types:  https://www.instrumart.com/MoreAboutCategory?CategoryID=742&gclid=Cj0KEQiAhZPDBRCz642XqYOCpb8BEiQANUcwTyWZq5RBUZO0rrRfC-M4AGxYj7g7muRGW_8__DDxp9kaAh1q8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

Operationally, the type K covers a wider temperature rance, but for the laminator project, the temperatures are nowhere near the limits for either type. The thermocouple type has to match the type required by the instrument you are using. The thermocouples are available with several different structures. In my case, I use a bead type that allows me to touch the rollers without conducting away significant heat. I can then get a reading with the case closed, giving me the most accurate picture of what happens in use. E-bay has the thermocouple and the instruments at very good prices. If you are going to use the bead type, order a few, because they are a bit fragile.

Harvey

 

Another question If I may. I have a Digi-Sense Digital Thermometer Type J Thermometer. What if any is the difference between the two Type K and Type J probes

or is it internal?

 

Non contact passive infrared rules...
Get one of these...
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570

Ancel,

 

Non contact passive infrared rules...
Get one of these...
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570

Rob,

The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading.

I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is very flat near 200°C, making the controller action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure.

In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush.

Harvey

 

Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting solder on the supporting
chips in the toner work PCB heating  path?
How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are pinpointing temperature measurment?




While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules..........

I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive infrared with
the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor.

Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield
behind a roller heater.


When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips it looked like about $15 gets that done
and
5 cents buys a thermistor....
or maybe a dollar if it has wires.

New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer TSCA

On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Non contact passive infrared rules...
Get one of these...
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570

 

Rob,

The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading.

I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is very flat near 200°C, making the controller action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure.

In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush.

Harvey

On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting solder on the supporting
chips in the toner work PCB heating  path?
How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are pinpointing temperature measurment?




While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules..........

I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive infrared with
the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor.

Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield
behind a roller heater.


When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips it looked like about $15 gets that done
and
5 cents buys a thermistor....
or maybe a dollar if it has wires.

New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer TSCA

On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Non contact passive infrared rules...
Get one of these...
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570

Rob,

The link that I purchased from is inactive, but this is the same unit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Board-Thermostat-K-Thermocouple-Probe-/182145097075?var=&hash=item2a68b19d73:m:m-d0W2aqMiE7N3CDhyhvxFwIT has the thermocouple in a bolt, but I also bought several pieces of the bead type in case I need to have the thermocouple in contact with the roller. The one I bought operates from 12 VDC. A small wall wart would do, or as in my case, I bought a 110VAC to 12 VDC converter module from ebay. Very little current is needed. One like this would do: http://www.ebay.com/itm/85V-265V-to-6V-12VDC-6W-9W-2-3-x3W-900ma-12V-LED-Driver-Power-Supply-/251651394313?hash=item3a97978b09:g:CPcAAOSw1DtXI3rk

 

Which one?

RE:
 approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Rob,

The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading.

I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is very flat near 200°C, making the controller action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure.

In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush.

Harvey

On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Where do you mount this device without destroying it and melting solder on the supporting
chips in the toner work PCB heating  path?
How far do you mount it from the desired location where you are pinpointing temperature measurment?




While I would agree that a Non contact passive infrared rules..........

I would like to some day compare the accuracy of the $20 passive infrared with
the K type thermocouple and a simple thermistor.

Noting that my ROYAL laminator heater control was done by a contact thermistor clamped to the aluminum heat shield
behind a roller heater.


When I was looking into thermocouple circuits and supporting chips it looked like about $15 gets that done
and
5 cents buys a thermistor....
or maybe a dollar if it has wires.

New Reprap NTC 3950 Thermistor 100K with 1 Meter wire for 3D Printer TSCA

On 12/30/2016 09:02 AM, AncelB mosaicmerc@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Non contact passive infrared rules...
Get one of these...
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570

 

The lead wires on thermocouples usually are soldered with some type of lead based solder. In high heat conditions this can come loose or oxidize to where it is weak . when I worked in an electronics plant and we dealt with high heat we always used thermocouples. When we used a packaged temperature controller they were usually type j . when we used microprocessor control they were type k .

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

Which one?

RE:
 approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Rob,

The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading.

I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is very flat near 200°C, making the controller action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure.

In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush.

Harvey

 

On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

Thermocouples are made by welding two wires of different materials together. That's what makes the bead on the bead type. The other terminations are just methods for making rugged ways to mount and protect the bead, which is kind of fragile. The wires will stay together over the entire operating temperature range of the TC. Thermistors are usually soldered into their circuits. The temperature at which the joints will fail is a function of what type of solder was used. Depending on the type of lead material used on the thermistor, it may also possible to weld them. The RepRap glass bead thermistors that I bought have magnetic leads, telling me that they are probably weldable, and I would expect that the thermistor that comes with the cable attached is probably welded.

 

How  HIGH is what you say is high heat conditions that weaken the soldered thermocouple ?
Considering that some  are rated at over 2,000 F degrees
while others only are rated to 400 F.
 

On 12/30/2016 03:15 PM, 'keith printy' keethpr@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

The lead wires on thermocouples usually are soldered with some type of lead based solder. In high heat conditions this can come loose or oxidize to where it is weak . when I worked in an electronics plant and we dealt with high heat we always used thermocouples. When we used a packaged temperature controller they were usually type j . when we used microprocessor control they were type k .

 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

Which one?

RE:
 approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

On 12/30/2016 01:04 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Rob,

The Passive IR gun type thermometer is only used for making initial measurements, not for a feedback type control system. The PIR thermometers have a distance to spot ratio. The Sparkfun unit mentioned previously has a ratio of 12:1, meaning that at a distance of 12 inches, the detector is reading the temperature in a 1 inch circle. The thermistor and thermocouple approaches measure the temperature at the point of contact, a much smaller area. With the PIR thermometer, I could not read the rollers in my laminator at all because they are surrounded by the heater structure except where the paper path is. Those slots were too narrow for either of my PIR thermometers. Another issue with the PIR thermometers, usually ignored in the advertising, is that the emissivity of the surface being measured has an effect on the readings. In plain English, this means that two surfaces made with different materials could be at the same temperature, but give different readings on the PIR. Surfaces with multiple materials, if they fall in the reading area, will give a reading that integrates the two readings, rather than providing a true reading.

I tried to use the RepRap thermistor in my original control circuit, and found that while it works, the resistance vs temperature curve is very flat near 200°C, making the controller action sluggish. I abandoned the thermistor approach in favor of a purchased controller with a type K thermocouple. This cost USD 8.99 on e-bay from China. I have not yet put it into service because of the melted gears.

As far as the location of the thermistor in the Royal laminator, this is a mechanically simple location to use, and if we think about it, we understand that there is no need to measure the actual temperature of the rollers, at least in the original application of the laminator. As long as the temperature drop between the heater and the roller is known, the system can be calibrated for proper operation with the thermistor mounted on the heater structure. The Harbor Freight unit uses mechanical thermoswitches mounted on the heater structure.

In our toner transfer case, it is not clear (at least to me) that measuring at the heater is sufficient. Since we are putting single or double sided thermally conductive boards of different sizes through the rollers, I am not sure that the temperature drop is sufficiently constant that we don't have to measure the temperature at the roller. I was experimenting with this when my gears turned to mush.

Harvey

 

On 12/30/2016 8:24 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so

stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.

 

Dave

Ancel,

I am not sure I understand why slowing the rollers causes them to pick up more heat energy. In my  laminator (Harbor Freight) there are two heaters, placed on opposite sides fo the rollers. The heaters are attached to aluminum structures that enclose the roller assembly all around, except for the slots for the paper path. Slowing down the rollers does not change their exposure to the heat source when there is no board traversing the path. With a board in place, the board would act as a heat removal path, changing the temperature of the rollers. I would think that slower speed would allow more heat to bleed out the otherwise closed heater area. Does the Apache/Trulam have an open structure that allows visibility by the FLIR camera? It would be difficult to get a good reading on the Harbor Freight unit  because of the close spacing (~1/8") of the paper path. The rollers are recessed far inside, and the slots are actually a fairly deep aluminum structure.

Less accurate control systems in the cheap units is an understatement. The temperature control for my unit is a thermoswitch mounted on the heater. This is a single heat unit, so no more control is needed for normal lamination. I got curious to see what temperature the thermal fuse is rated for. This fuse is clamped to one of the aluminum heater fins, and is covered by a flexible plasticized glass fiber filled sleeve. The fuse is marked as 185°C. By mounting it in the thermally insulating sleeve, the heater temperature can go higher without tripping the fuse. I had it operating at approximately 210°C for an extended period without any complaint from the fuse. The only thing that fuses was the gears.

I have not yet had the time to determine the softening temperature of the structural plastic that supports the roller assembly. This outcome will determine whether there is any point in continuing with this particular laminator. The Brother toner supposedly fuses around 370°F, or 188°C. I have measured a 20°C temperature difference between the heater fins and the roller, making operation around 210+°C a necessary condition for my use of this laminator.

 

When a laminator's net roller speed is modified, you also modify the
heat energy transfer to the rollers as the same surface of the roller
sees more radiant heat in a given time. Thus it gets hotter without even
upgrading the heater.
Now if you run the rollers too slow, the roller area being heated vs the
roller area being sensed will have a hi temperature delta and you could
burn the rollers. If the gears are exposed to some of this heat
conducted by the roller shaft, thermoplastic gears can 'become' plastic
and fail.

I encountered this heat delta effect when I was developing & monitoring
my Apache/Trulam mod with a FLIR camera. To eliminate this heat spike,
whenever the mod. reverses the roller it cuts the heater. This seems to
work well to date with no roller damage and good transfers. Thus running
the laminator at 'normal' speed during the heat up phase and then
'slowing' the rollers just for the Toner Transfer phase and returning
the laminator to normal speed afterward keeps the rollers from seeing
too much of a heat delta cycle and they suffer less degradation.

For the different laminators being modified, cheaper units seem to have
cheaper materials in them, with less accurate controls. Thus it's trial
and error as to how slow and how hot you can go before you exceed the
design spec enough to destroy the laminator and make a fire hazard.

Rob's approach eliminates this risk but is not 'over the counter'
repeatable for everyone and is certainly more time consuming when you
have a batch to run!

I shipped a built Apache/Trulam mod. to Italy yesterday based on the
newer layout with the SMT PIC. It uses low ESR SMT bypass caps and wider
power rail traces as well to mitigate PIC resets due to transient power
spijes as are generated from the relay and heater switching.

Rob,

The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat is provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric with either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides of the rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit around the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two pieces that are separated to form the slots for the paper path.

The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse remains.

There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/  This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. The heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater assembly, and not in view in these pics.

 

Really? This grabs my attention.
What make and model?
Can you take a picture and share?
Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted?

 

On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so

stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.

 

Dave

 

Rob,

The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat is provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric with either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides of the rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit around the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two pieces that are separated to form the slots for the paper path.

The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse remains.

There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/  This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. The heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater assembly, and not in view in these pics.

Harvey

On 12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Really? This grabs my attention.
What make and model?
Can you take a picture and share?
Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted?

 

On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so

stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.

 

Dave

On Sat, 12/31/16, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Temp upgrades of lam's Harbor Freight hack
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, December 31, 2016, 8:31 PM


 












thanks

I had not seen that dimmer hack yet.

Those pictures show the guts of the laminator.

Looks  a lot like my APACHE AL9

http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/al9.html



http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/index.html







On 12/31/2016 02:38 PM,
Harvey
Altstadter hrconsult@...
[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:


 



Rob,
The Harbor Freight unit is
"concentric" in the sense that
the heat is provide from all around the roller
assembly.
It is not concentric with either roller. There
are two
heaters mounted on opposite sides of the
rollers, and an
aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit
around the
rollers. The aluminum structure is actually
two pieces
that are separated to form the slots for the
paper path.


The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant.
By the time
the mod is done, not much of the original
circuitry or
wiring remains. The temperature control
thermoswitch is
removed,and replaced by the temperature
controller I
referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that
controls the
ready light is removed because it operates at
a
temperature that is irrelevant. What remains
is the small
circuit board that holds the ready LED and the
power
indicator LED, and the ON/OFF switch. This
board has two
rectifiers, two resistors and two LEDs. The
motor remains,
the heaters remain and the thermal fuse
remains.


There are some photos of the interior of the
laminator
here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/%c2%a0
This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series
with the
motor, so most of the pics have to do with
modifying and
mounting the dimmer, but there a few that show
the motor,
the heater and the circuit board. The heater
control
thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater
assembly,
and not in view in these pics.


Harvey



On
12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@...
[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:



 

Really? This grabs my
attention.

What make and model?

Can you take a picture and share?

Is there an online parts list we can
eyeball that
shows how concentric heaters are
mounted?



 




On
12/31/2016 11:53 AM,
'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@...
[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:


 


But,
but the heaters are concentric
with the
rollers (or at least they are in
my laminator)
so
stopped/forward/reverse

should make no
difference.
 
Dave




























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Rob,

It looks like it is similar to the Apache that you have, but it lacks the second thermoswitch mounted directly on the  heater. I don't understand the wiring in parallel of the two thermoswitches in your schematic. I assume that they are normally closed, opening on reaching their specified temperature. Since they are in parallel, and wired in series with the heater, the only one that would have any effect would be the higher temperature one. I could understand if they were in series. Then the lower temperature switch would be the controller, with the higher temp switch acting as a protection in case the lower temperature switch failed short. The effect on the green light would be the same as it is in your description.

The HF unit has an additional thermoswitch mounted on the heater in a thermally insulating mount. That switch is normally open, and is in series with the resistor, rectifier and the green LED, and turns on the  ready light when the unit has reached temperature.

The HF unit is also somewhat larger, with a larger heater assembly. The rest is empty space.

Harvey

 

thanks
I had not seen that dimmer hack yet.
Those pictures show the guts of the laminator.
Looks  a lot like my APACHE AL9
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/al9.html

http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/index.html

On 12/31/2016 02:38 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Rob,

The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat is provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric with either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides of the rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit around the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two pieces that are separated to form the slots for the paper path.

The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse remains.

There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/  This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. The heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater assembly, and not in view in these pics.

Harvey

On 12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Really? This grabs my attention.
What make and model?
Can you take a picture and share?
Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted?

 

On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so

stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.

 

Dave

 

Rob,

It looks like it is similar to the Apache that you have, but it lacks the second thermoswitch mounted directly on the  heater. I don't understand the wiring in parallel of the two thermoswitches in your schematic. I assume that they are normally closed, opening on reaching their specified temperature. Since they are in parallel, and wired in series with the heater, the only one that would have any effect would be the higher temperature one. I could understand if they were in series. Then the lower temperature switch would be the controller, with the higher temp switch acting as a protection in case the lower temperature switch failed short. The effect on the green light would be the same as it is in your description.

The HF unit has an additional thermoswitch mounted on the heater in a thermally insulating mount. That switch is normally open, and is in series with the resistor, rectifier and the green LED, and turns on the  ready light when the unit has reached temperature.

The HF unit is also somewhat larger, with a larger heater assembly. The rest is empty space.

Harvey

On 12/31/2016 1:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

thanks
I had not seen that dimmer hack yet.
Those pictures show the guts of the laminator.
Looks  a lot like my APACHE AL9
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/al9.html

http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/index.html

On 12/31/2016 02:38 PM, Harvey Altstadter hrconsult@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Rob,

The Harbor Freight unit is "concentric" in the sense that the heat is provide from all around the roller assembly. It is not concentric with either roller. There are two heaters mounted on opposite sides of the rollers, and an aluminum structure that is manufactured to fit around the rollers. The aluminum structure is actually two pieces that are separated to form the slots for the paper path.

The BOM for this unit is mostly irrelevant. By the time the mod is done, not much of the original circuitry or wiring remains. The temperature control thermoswitch is removed,and replaced by the temperature controller I referenced yesterday, the thermal switch that controls the ready light is removed because it operates at a temperature that is irrelevant. What remains is the small circuit board that holds the ready LED and the power indicator LED, and the ON/OFF switch. This board has two rectifiers, two resistors and two LEDs. The motor remains, the heaters remain and the thermal fuse remains.

There are some photos of the interior of the laminator here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/15304611@N03/sets/72157635447779272/  This mod is one that adds a dimmer in series with the motor, so most of the pics have to do with modifying and mounting the dimmer, but there a few that show the motor, the heater and the circuit board. The heater control thermoswitch is on the underside of the heater assembly, and not in view in these pics.

Harvey

On 12/31/2016 11:10 AM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

Really? This grabs my attention.
What make and model?
Can you take a picture and share?
Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted?

 

On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so

stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.

 

Dave

>>I am not sure I understand why slowing the rollers causes them to

Ancel,

That makes sense. I am beginning to see why the laser printers I have looked at use heaters inside the rollers.

Harvey

 

Harvey asked :
>>I am not sure I understand why slowing the rollers causes them to pick up more heat energy. In my  laminator (Harbor Freight) there are two heaters, placed on opposite sides fo the rollers. The heaters are attached to aluminum structures that enclose the roller assembly all around, except for the slots for the paper path.<<

During development of the Apache PCB mod, I effectively slowed the rollers to a  net zero movement.

Before long the rollers' area closest to the heaters started to smoke a lot.

When I powered down cooled and dismantled the rollers they had developed a white powdery surface which shed when wiped. After cleaning this sediment the rollers had become oval shaped and frangible.

I swapped them out with the 'cold rollers' (quad roller laminator) and wrapped them in kapton tape to keep them serviceable.

In summary; the reflected heat from the metal enclosure is not as much as the direct radiant heat from the heater coils and (with an almost parked roller)  this creates a temperature on the roller surface than can  exceed the roller's spec, if the roller does not rotate away from the heater and cool off.
Because the temp sensor is on the exposed  side of the roller away from the heaters, it depends on the hot side of the roller rotating into contact with it, if this doesn't happen fast enough, the temp sensor sees a temp well below the hottest part of the rollers and does NOT shut off the heater, resulting in overheating.

 

It’s a Vivid IP-330 described as having “hot roller” technology.

 

I need to dig it out as I can’t remember what I did to increase the Temp range (probably just changed a resistor in the op-amp circuit that used a 1N4148 as a Temp sensor).

 

Can’t find a parts list …

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 31 December 2016 18:11
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions

 

 

Really? This grabs my attention.
What make and model?
Can you take a picture and share?
Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted?

 

On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so

stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.

 

Dave

 

Rob,

It does, but the maximum operating temperature is 200°C for the 4148. With ~-2mV/°C tempco, it is difficult to build a controller that works well up to that temperature. You also need to calibrate it because the tempco is not constant over the full temperature range, nor is it exactly -2 mV/°C. I was unhappy with the way it worked when I did it, so I switched over to the RepRap thermistor. Unhappy with the poor performance at hot temperature, I bought the thermocouple based temperature controller.

The linearity of diode type temperature sensors is pretty good for short temperature ranges, but going from room temperature to the temperature ranges we are using didn't give me satisfactory performance.

For me, the thermocouple is the best route. Thermocouples are tricky because their terminations make additional thermocouples in series with the measurement couple, screwing up the readings. A packaged solution that takes care of the termination issues is the easiest way. At $8.99, a bargain! No fuss, no muss, no bother. And digital readout, too.

Harvey

 

Always learning something new here.
1N4148 + LM741 makes a temperature sensor

On 01/01/2017 07:11 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

It’s a Vivid IP-330 described as having “hot roller” technology.

 

I need to dig it out as I can’t remember what I did to increase the Temp range (probably just changed a resistor in the op-amp circuit that used a 1N4148 as a Temp sensor).

 

Can’t find a parts list …

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 31 December 2016 18:11
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions

 

 

Really? This grabs my attention.
What make and model?
Can you take a picture and share?
Is there an online parts list we can eyeball that shows how concentric heaters are mounted?

 

On 12/31/2016 11:53 AM, 'David C. Partridge' david.partridge@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:

 

But, but the heaters are concentric with the rollers (or at least they are in my laminator) so

stopped/forward/reverse should make no difference.

 

Dave

 

>
>
> Wow
> all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes and
> transistors.
> https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI
>
>
>
>
>
> A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a
> temperature probe. Is
> the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe
> circuits like I
> do for other projects.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted by: Rob <roomberg@...>

 

On 1/1/2017 2:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> Wow
> all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes and
> transistors.
> https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI

 

You do realize that diodes and transistors can not handle the
temperatures involved while they have power. Most Silicon transistors
can handle up to 100C which is much lower than the temperature of the
rollers.

--
Cecil - k5nwa
http://thepartsplace.k5nwa.com/

That will work just fine, but unless you use a transistor with a metal case, your upper temperature will be limited to 150°C, or possibly lower. If you use a metal case transistor, remember that the collector is connected to the case, and this may cause a grounding problem. Temperature limit with the metal can is 200°C or lower. Look at the datasheet for the maximum storage temperature, and use the lowest current through the transistor you can.

 

A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is 

the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I 

do for other projects.

> For exactly one pass through the laminator, what would be the optimal temperature?

It is unless you need to go to a higher temperature range. The metal can, TO-46 part only goes to 148.5°C. The other plastic packages are even lower. The LM34AH metal can part sells for USD 19.41 at Arrow.

There is a whole family of these simple thermometers, but all suffer from the same limitations.

 

A  LM34DZ  is a HELL of a lot more simple than trying to use a diode or transistor to measure temperature.

The other possibility would be an in line pre heater. In that case, the rollers wouldn't have to get so hot, as the board could be at or close to the fusing temperature upon entering the laminator.

 

> For exactly one pass through the laminator, what would be the optimal temperature?

My modified laminator runs up to 250C and even than needs multiple passes for a large 11” x 8” double sized 1.6mm PCB (thermal capacity of PCB too high). A small 0.8mm PCB will work in one pass at 250C.

Even with a metal case this is pushing the limits (I had to recover the rollers with glass fibre shrink-fit and cover that with PTFE shrink-fit).

Overall a single pass temperature setting for a large board would be so high as to kill even PTFE covered rollers, and would probably overcook the first part of the board.

There are more exotic roller coverings than PTFE but the price would make your eyes water copiously (think hundreds of pounds).

I think that a solution similar to Ancel’s where the roller speeds are modified and driven in a forward/backward manner is probably the best.

FWIW I only do laser transfer now for the LARGE boards that would be too costly from a PCB supply house.

Dave

Wow
all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes and transistors.
https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI





A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is
the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I
do for other projects.

 

Why not just use a thermistor? It's made for that purpose, already calibrated, costs a dollar or so, is tiny snd rugged, and can be read with a simple ohmmeter. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 1, 2017, at 3:31 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Wow
all sorts of web sources explaining how to measure temp with diodes and transistors.
https://youtu.be/fvjDWfRpdAI





A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is
the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I
do for other projects.

 

I would say it is a relay. 

The box is the coil which has 400 Ohm resistance and 1mH inductance

I don't know why they specified the inductance of the coil, I can't imagine it's really important, probably it's just what they had.

Since said coil is shown as powered from 12v, and we know it's 400R, it will be around 25-30mA when the transistor below it is saturated.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Rob roomberg@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this
schematic?

http://www.learnmorsecode.com/ laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg

 

Relay, the Bulb shown on the schematic is a stand in to the heaters

 

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: 02 January 2017 03:36
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] WHAT is K1 1mH 400 ohm

 

 

What is the component labeled K1 1mH 400 ohm on the right side of this
schematic?

http://www.learnmorsecode.com/laminator/gbc/pp330.jpg

The transistor is being used as a diode. I’ve seen this on amplifiers to monitor the power transistors and adjust the bias so it don’t go into thermal runaway.  In all heater circuits I have dealt with we always used a temperature control with a thermocouple. These withstood the higher temperatures . they also had some form of high limit protection in case of a shorted thermocouple or controller failure.if the thermocouple failed open the controller simply shut the heat off altogether.
 
 
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [ mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2017 2:12 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Temp upgrades of lam's HOW high is high heat conditions
 
 
A transistor with two of three legs soldered together makes a temperature probe. Is
the temperature inside of lam too hot? Google for temperature probe circuits like I
do for other projects.