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Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-23 by qz9090@...

First of all, I am a hobbiest so I am not looking to acquire top of this line equipment. With that said,

I would like to acquire some new soldering/desoldering/etc. equipment for electronic hobby purposes.


Obviously, whatever I get, I would like to be able to use it for a few years, so durability is key. Also, with more and more components being surface mounted, I would like to make sure the equipment provides me the ability to work with SMD components.


My first thoughts, just for starters, were:

1) a new soldering iron

2) new multimeter (but with what measurements other than the obvious)

3) heat gun (what kind and what temp range)


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.


Frank P.



Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-23 by ctech

Soldering Iron:
get the YiHuA 835D or similar model on ebay, get an extra heating element for the gun and iron  and solder tips also ebay...
cheap ~$100
Gun and iron heating elements die rather quick if you go in the 400C range (soldering water pipes :D)
I been using this for over a year, 12h a day without break....
Regards
Andreas


On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 4:43 PM, qz9090@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

First of all, I am a hobbiest so I am not looking to acquire top of this line equipment. With that said,

I would like to acquire some new soldering/desoldering/etc. equipment for electronic hobby purposes.


Obviously, whatever I get, I would like to be able to use it for a few years, so durability is key. Also, with more and more components being surface mounted, I would like to make sure the equipment provides me the ability to work with SMD components.


My first thoughts, just for starters, were:

1) a new soldering iron

2) new multimeter (but with what measurements other than the obvious)

3) heat gun (what kind and what temp range)


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.


Frank P.




Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-24 by Harvey White

On 23 Jul 2014 15:43:18 -0700, you wrote:

>First of all, I am a hobbiest so I am not looking to acquire top of this line equipment. With that said,
> I would like to acquire some new soldering/desoldering/etc. equipment for electronic hobby purposes.
>
>
> Obviously, whatever I get, I would like to be able to use it for a few years, so durability is key. Also, with more and more components being surface mounted, I would like to make sure the equipment provides me the ability to work with SMD components.
>
>
> My first thoughts, just for starters, were:
> 1) a new soldering iron

You would like temperature controlled, and with a 1/16th inch tip at
the minimum size (or smaller). Weller has a TCP-1 model available
sometimes as surplus, or a 1500? model which is smaller and has less
power, but is good for SMT stuff.

For SMT, you want a small tip., for normal, you'd like larger, say 1/8
or slightly more. You want temperature controlled. This is either
done in the tip (ferromagnetic and curie point) or by a sensor. Tips
are not interchangeable between the two methods. Either will work
well, ferromagnetic tips are not as accurate (may not be a problem)
but are cheaper.

The top of the line is something like either Pace, Hakko, or Metcal. I
think that they all have an inexpensive line, but you can often find
older (but nicer) equipment on ebay or at a hamfest.

You may wish to invest in desoldering equipment. I've had the most
and best luck with Metcal, and some specialized tips. You'll need one
for each package type and they are expensive.

there's surface mount desoldering, generally hot air, and through
hole, generally a heated solder sucker and vacuum. I'd recommend the
self contained vacuum pump rather than the one that runs off shop air
unless you are guaranteed to have shop air available at all times, and
all places. I'd avoid the plunger type desoldering stuff unless
you're working with very large parts.

> 2) new multimeter (but with what measurements other than the obvious)

temperature, diode, continuity, transistor. I've never used the
frequency counter all that much on a multimeter.

> 3) heat gun (what kind and what temp range)

for making PC boards, a standard hair dryer can be useful to make sure
you have no excess water.

I have a small Milwaukee gun of the type used for heatshrink, which
will remove chips, but not in a very elegant manner.

I've tried the hot air desoldering systems, and they work
variously....

The specialized tip works much better for me (64, 100, or 144 pin
chips).

Bear in mind that you'll need one for each chip type.

Get solder wick, very good to clean up various solder blobs and two
pins soldered together messes (which do NOT work well with a
desoldering gun).

Get liquid flux, RMA seems to work best for me (Kester), not expensive
and it does work well. Consider isopropyl alcohol, at least 91% for
flux removal, and the commercial flux removers, with a stiff horsehair
brush (Harbor Freight sells these, just trim the bristles for
stiffness).


>
>
> Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

There's a bunch. Main thing with soldering is to avoid cheap Chinese
stuff, simply because you may not be able to get the tips again,
regardless of how well it works.

Harvey

>
>
> Frank P.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-24 by Stefan Trethan

Look into getting a hot air rework station. Chinese will do.

You need small tips for the iron and multimeter.
I won't go into recommendations since I feel anything short of JBC is not worth my while and you did not want top of the line.

Steinel heat guns are good, I believe some Sears/Craftsman in the US are Steinel OEM.
Must have closed loop adjustable temperature control, not just two fixed power settings.

You may or may not need magnification, depending on eyesight.

ST


On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:43 AM, qz9090@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


First of all, I am a hobbiest so I am not looking to acquire top of this line equipment. With that said,

I would like to acquire some new soldering/desoldering/etc. equipment for electronic hobby purposes.


Obviously, whatever I get, I would like to be able to use it for a few years, so durability is key. Also, with more and more components being surface mounted, I would like to make sure the equipment provides me the ability to work with SMD components.


My first thoughts, just for starters, were:

1) a new soldering iron

2) new multimeter (but with what measurements other than the obvious)

3) heat gun (what kind and what temp range)


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.


Frank P.






Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-24 by James

I'd say any chinese soldering station which takes 900 series tips ( handle looks like this: http://imgur.com/Uwi6dXS ).

Any hot air station, preferably one that has an auto shut-off (note that it should not shut the air off instantly, it needs a cool-down period), some have fans inside the handle, some have diaphragm pumps inside the base unit, don't ask me which is best.

A combined station is fine too.

Atten, Yihua and Saike are perhaps the most recognisable chinese "brands" in terms of this equipment (but there are many many different badges for basically the same product, or copies of copies of...), just head over to ebay and search for those brand names along with soldering and you'll see what's available, set the low price to about $30 to weed out the tips and replacement elements and stuff.

Note that it is recommended to take your new station part and visually check the assembly for obvious problems, bad earthing, dodgy wiring, that kind of thing, before you power it on the first time :-)

Also grab a cheap pack of 10 900 series iron tips off ebay and see what you like best, somewhat it's personal preference, some people like big and chunky, some people like small and nimble, but having a few tips comes in handy, the very fine pointy one might not be much use in general, but when you really need to get into a tight spot it's nice to have it in your toolbox.



On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Stefan Trethan stefan_trethan@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Look into getting a hot air rework station. Chinese will do.

You need small tips for the iron and multimeter.
I won't go into recommendations since I feel anything short of JBC is not worth my while and you did not want top of the line.

Steinel heat guns are good, I believe some Sears/Craftsman in the US are Steinel OEM.
Must have closed loop adjustable temperature control, not just two fixed power settings.

You may or may not need magnification, depending on eyesight.

ST




On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:43 AM, qz9090@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


First of all, I am a hobbiest so I am not looking to acquire top of this line equipment. With that said,

I would like to acquire some new soldering/desoldering/etc. equipment for electronic hobby purposes.


Obviously, whatever I get, I would like to be able to use it for a few years, so durability is key. Also, with more and more components being surface mounted, I would like to make sure the equipment provides me the ability to work with SMD components.


My first thoughts, just for starters, were:

1) a new soldering iron

2) new multimeter (but with what measurements other than the obvious)

3) heat gun (what kind and what temp range)


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.


Frank P.







Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-24 by bobledoux@...

I do SMT generally down to 0805, SOIC and SOT-23 size components.  In a rare case a TSSOP is soldered.

I use a Haako temperature controlled soldering station with three tip sizes that can be changed according to component needs.  The biggest tip is 1/8 wide for large through hole or heat sinked components.

Next, is a flux pen.

Then, a good pair of small non-magnetic high quality tweezers.  Nothing is more frustrating than a pair of "nonmagnetic" tweezers that won't less go of 0805 components.

A head mounted magnifier is next.

Finally, some .020 diameter lead solder.

That is all I use. 

For de-soldering I use two irons at the same time to heat both sides. 

I'd start with this list and expand it as necessary.

Chips down to SOIC size can be removed without a heat gun. Buy some Chip Quik for occasional parts removal.

If you need accurate capacitor or inductor measurements get the AADE meter.  Otherwise a basic multimeter will do.

Its easy to buy fancy stuff that is not needed or is rarely used.

Then, develop your own procedures for getting the job done.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-25 by B Miller

What size are your final boards going to be?

Bob

Sent from an Android device

On Jul 23, 2014 3:43 PM, "qz9090@... [Homebrew_PCBs]" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

First of all, I am a hobbiest so I am not looking to acquire top of this line equipment. With that said,

I would like to acquire some new soldering/desoldering/etc. equipment for electronic hobby purposes.


Obviously, whatever I get, I would like to be able to use it for a few years, so durability is key. Also, with more and more components being surface mounted, I would like to make sure the equipment provides me the ability to work with SMD components.


My first thoughts, just for starters, were:

1) a new soldering iron

2) new multimeter (but with what measurements other than the obvious)

3) heat gun (what kind and what temp range)


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.


Frank P.



Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-26 by Paul Alciatore

I am also making the transition to SMDs and it is not that painful.
Some things I have done and find useful:

1. I did buy a new soldering station, not because my old Weller WTCP
station was bad for this work, but I just wanted a new one for a
second work bench. I have used a Hakko solder/unsolder station and
found it grossly overpriced for what it did. The unsolder side had a
seriously underpowered vacuum pump and the tip constantly required
disassembly for cleaning. I stopped using it and went back to the
hand operated vacuum device. The soldering side of it was OK, but I
found my Weller to be just as good or better. And a lot less expensive.

I bought a Tenma digital station with interchangeable tips and have
been using it for about a year now. It is every bit as good as my
Weller for about 1/3 to 1/4 of the price (of the Weller, not the
grossly expensive Hakko).

2. I purchased a cup warmer and use it to preheat circuit boards to
make working on SMDs easier.

3. I found this internet article on modifying an inexpensive Radio
Shack desoldering iron into a hot air soldering iron.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/07/how-to-make-a-surface-mount-soldering-iron/

I have built this and it does work for soldering many SMD devices. I
use it in conjunction with the cup warmer and soldering paste. It can
also be used to unsolder some SMD devices with just 2 to 4 leads. It
has a very gentle air flow which can be directed to just a few leads
at a time.

4. Tweezers. Small, sharp tips. Straight and bent.

5. Visor with magnifying lenses. You need this even if your vision is 20/20.

Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-27 by Bob Butcher

Another item I have found very helpful especially when soldering lots of components on a commercial PCB with solder mask is an inexpensive toaster oven. I bought one from Wal Mart for about $20, and it works amazingly well. I apply solder paste to the pads with a small hypodermic syringe and place the components with tweezers. You do not need to be real accurate in placement. Then I place the boards in the oven and turn on the power on high setting. I watch the solder until it turns from black to shiny, and turn off the power and let it cool. The components will self-align when the solder starts to flow, and most bridges between leads on IC's will vanish like magic. Sometimes it is necessary to touch up a joint or two, or maybe fix a bridge, but it is amazing how well this works. I even used a thermocouple and timer to plot a temperature profile for the oven heating and cooling. It compared very well to the recommended profiles used in real soldering ovens. Probably the biggest fault is that the center of the oven heated up a little faster than around the perimeter, but I suspect most ovens do that. There are a bunch of websites offering more details on the cheap toaster oven technique.

This does not work very well if you lack soldermask to keep the solder isolated to only the pads, and then hand soldering is my preferred method.

Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-29 by qz9090@...

Stefan,

>Look into getting a hot air rework station. Chinese will do.
It seems that some of the rework stations come with or without a soldering iron, is that a good thing?
Historically, I have never liked integrated components so a heat gun may seem more appropriate.

>You need small tips for the iron and multimeter.
May I ask, which sizes I should consider for the iron and multimeter tips.
I am also thinking if I don't purchase an integrated workstation, it might be good to purchase a new soldering iron.

>I won't go into recommendations since I feel anything short of JBC is not worth my while and you did not want >top of the line.
I respect that...maybe some of the other members of the group have some recommendations on Chinese branded rework stations or guns.

>Steinel heat guns are good, I believe some Sears/Craftsman in the US are Steinel OEM.
>Must have closed loop adjustable temperature control, not just two fixed power settings.
How do I determine if the device has a closed loop adjustable control?

>You may or may not need magnification, depending on eyesight.
Yep, need this too. Some times those tiny devices can be pretty hard to see.
Any recommendation...?

Thanks.

Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-29 by qz9090@...

James,
Now I have "egg on my face", since I hadn't read all the messages in this thread.

You answered some of my questions to Stefan, in my previous message...
I was always told in school  not to read ahead... didn't work this time.....  ;-)

I started to look at the Atten, Yihua and Saike brands this morning, what a coincidence.
I am still debating between integrated and not integrated, although I am leaning toward the former.

On the 900 series tips, are those for a specific soldering iron?

Your "note" ....."Note that it is recommended to take your new station part and visually check the assembly for obvious problems, bad earthing, dodgy wiring, that kind of thing, before you power it on the first time :-)"

Does make me a little nervous.... having to fix something before you use it.

Thanks for the Info.

Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-29 by qz9090@...

Bob,
I will probably start out by doing simple repairs on items around my home and car, so, essentially, I don't have a specific board size in mind.

Most likely, I will start with larger and work my way smaller as I get better with the tools, etc.

Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-29 by qz9090@...

Paul,

>1.....
May I ask what model of Tenma digital station you purchased?

>2. I purchased a cup warmer and use it to preheat circuit boards to
>make working on SMDs easier.
May I ask, what kind of cup warmer? Is it the kind to keep your coffee hot at your desk?
This is a new one on me...If it works, that's great!

>3. I found this article...
I saw this article too but thought I might like to have a little more control over the heat.

>4. Tweezers
Okay

>5. Visor
I haven't figured out how I am going to do the magnification yet, I wear glasses today and can't see much without them. I thought I might try a desk lamp with a built in magnifying glass, and see how it goes.

Regardless of my purchases, I still have a lot of thru hole components that I would like to use up, so as I look at the various items, I try to see if they are applicable to both thru hole and SMD.

What about solder vs solder paste? Is this a personal preference?

Thanks for your input.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-30 by Harvey White

On 29 Jul 2014 14:44:59 -0700, you wrote:

>Stefan,
>
>>Look into getting a hot air rework station. Chinese will do.
>It seems that some of the rework stations come with or without a soldering iron, is that a good thing?


>Historically, I have never liked integrated components so a heat gun may seem more appropriate.

Rework stations have more control over the heat, and more control
about where the hot air goes. You can remove parts with a hot air
gun, but I've got no idea of what it may eventually do to the parts.

>
>>You need small tips for the iron and multimeter.
>May I ask, which sizes I should consider for the iron and multimeter tips.
>I am also thinking if I don't purchase an integrated workstation, it might be good to purchase a new soldering iron.

Iron, 1/16 maximum for the SMT soldering or less if you can get it,
too small does not work, the plating area is very small and often gets
worn off, and thus just sits there warming up the part.

Multimeter tips, try needle tips, but also note that you're putting a
lot of pressure on a small area with something very smart, so sticking
a solder joint is much better than a trace or a lead.


>
>>I won't go into recommendations since I feel anything short of JBC is not worth my while and you did not want >top of the line.
>I respect that...maybe some of the other members of the group have some recommendations on Chinese branded rework stations or guns.

I got a "blackjack' from circuit specialists (IIRC), is not so bad,
but is also not all that wonderful. You really want one that has a
suction tip inside the area that's being heated, thus the chip will
lift right off.

I've had much more luck with a square cup type of tip for a Metcal
iron, much faster, does not overheat the chip as much. May not have
had the air temperature up high enough.


>
>>Steinel heat guns are good, I believe some Sears/Craftsman in the US are Steinel OEM.
>>Must have closed loop adjustable temperature control, not just two fixed power settings.
>How do I determine if the device has a closed loop adjustable control?

Temperature dial rather than "high" "low".

>
>>You may or may not need magnification, depending on eyesight.
>Yep, need this too. Some times those tiny devices can be pretty hard to see.
>Any recommendation...?

I have a binocular microscope, American Optical. You want one with a
2 or 3 inch distance between the objective lenses and the object.
There are ones that are used for wafer examination, and have maybe a
1/4 inch maximum clearance.

Harvey

>
>Thanks.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-30 by B Miller

You are correct, that part always gets me as I design the board and have them made, saves a lot of time when size matters and you want yo use 0402, 0603 & 0805 for the bulk of your work.  FWIW, I have have good luck with Aoyue products, probably not upto Hakko but neither is the price.  Not sure the power you will need but the brand has worked reliably since 2010 (before that it was just projects here and there, 2010  is when I really got into it making items.  I know a lot of you have been doing this for 40 years plus, 2010 is all I can give you for reliability terms).  If you decide to give Aoyue a try, http://sra-solder.com/ has what I consider good stock and prices.

Bob

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014, qz9090@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Bob,
The lack of a soldermask and the fact that most of the work I do is repair, I'm not sure your methods will work for me. Thanks, though...



--
Sent from the iPad

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-30 by Eldon Brown

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Harvey White madyn@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

On 29 Jul 2014 14:44:59 -0700, you wrote:


>
>>You may or may not need magnification, depending on eyesight.
>Yep, need this too. Some times those tiny devices can be pretty hard to see.
>Any recommendation...?

I have a binocular microscope, American Optical. You want one with a
2 or 3 inch distance between the objective lenses and the object.
There are ones that are used for wafer examination, and have maybe a
1/4 inch maximum clearance.

Harvey


I agree !

I know the original question was for suggestions of inexpensive tools for SMD's. But, if you can find the cash, a Binocular Microscope is a great addition to your shop.

See my microscope and use at: http://wa0uwh.blogspot.com/search/label/Microscope, the link is a search excerpts from my Blog.

Regards,
Eldon Brown

73 - Eldon - WA0UWH - CN88xc - http://WA0UWH.blogspot.com/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-30 by Eldon Brown


On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 5:29 PM, Harvey White madyn@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>>You need small tips for the iron and multimeter.
>May I ask, which sizes I should consider for the iron and multimeter tips.
>I am also thinking if I don't purchase an integrated workstation, it might be good to purchase a new soldering iron.

Iron, 1/16 maximum for the SMT soldering or less if you can get it,
too small does not work, the plating area is very small and often gets
worn off, and thus just sits there warming up the part.



Harvey



When stating with SMD's I purchased a Hakko 888, but while wait for it to arrive my old Weller died. I was desperate for a soldering iron, so I purchased a cheepy Hakko 980 iron only for the current emergency. I think I only paid $30 for Hakko 980 at a local Frys store.

But today, I use the inexpesive Hakko 980 about 99% of the time on SMD's, and only use the Hakko 888 on very rear occasions.  I like really like the Hakko 980 for all SMD work.

See my soldering adventures via excerpts from my blog at: http://wa0uwh.blogspot.com/search/label/Soldering%20Iron



Regards,
Eldon Brown

73 - Eldon - WA0UWH - CN88xc - http://WA0UWH.blogspot.com/

Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-30 by palciatore@...

1. I did not buy the Tenma digital station: it was in my employer's shop when I started there. I don't work there any longer and don't remember the model number. It must be an older one as my employment there started about 20 years ago. It was a model with a combination of soldering iron on one side and de-soldering iron on the other. I remember looking it up and finding the cost was over $500 (about 15 years ago). And it really was a royal pain to try to keep the de-soldering iron's passage ways clean. Perhaps the newer ones are better, but personally I like a separate, hand held solder sucker: the big ones, not the little wimpy ones. One click and the solder is gone. And they are a LOT easier to clean and will go for longer intervals between cleanings. As far as I am concerned, they beat any de-soldering iron or solder wick, HANDS DOWN.

Now, don't get me wrong, solder wick is good for things like cleaning up excess solder and solder bridges on SMDs. I keep some on the bench and use it for that; but not for de-soldering things like through hole components.

2. Yes, just a desk top warmer for a single cup. I got it in a local store for $10 to $15. Mr. Coffee brand, no controls except On/Off, and I made no mods. I just lay the PCB on top of it and turn it on. I think the pre-heat really does help, especially when you are dealing with a ground plane or other large mass that will soak up the heat.

3. Commercial hot air irons are more powerful. I was afraid they would blow the parts around. Probably not, but that was my thought. And I am cheap. I will probably get one when I have more experience under my belt. You can control the heat by the distance and the small tip allows precise application. But not good for removing SMD parts with leads on several sides.

4. Yes, several.

5. I like the visor and I have at least four of them. I use them both at my electronic bench and in my garage (metal and wood) shop. It is nice to have them there, on my head instead of mounted on the bench. And I can easily look under the lenses when I don't need the magnification. But, to each his/her own.

And solder vs. solder paste. Each has it's own uses and I have both on the bench. Like you, I also use both through hole and SMD style components. Many times you can't escape it.


---In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <qz9090@...> wrote :

Paul,

>1.....
May I ask what model of Tenma digital station you purchased?

>2. I purchased a cup warmer and use it to preheat circuit boards to
>make working on SMDs easier.
May I ask, what kind of cup warmer? Is it the kind to keep your coffee hot at your desk?
This is a new one on me...If it works, that's great!

>3. I found this article...
I saw this article too but thought I might like to have a little more control over the heat.

>4. Tweezers
Okay

>5. Visor
I haven't figured out how I am going to do the magnification yet, I wear glasses today and can't see much without them. I thought I might try a desk lamp with a built in magnifying glass, and see how it goes.

Regardless of my purchases, I still have a lot of thru hole components that I would like to use up, so as I look at the various items, I try to see if they are applicable to both thru hole and SMD.

What about solder vs solder paste? Is this a personal preference?

Thanks for your input.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-30 by Kirk Kleinschmidt

Harvey and the group:


I bought a nice American Optical stereo microscope at Goodwill for $6 :)


It's in nice shape, was probably new in the '60s, has two magnification levels and the requisite 3-4 inch working distance, but...


The "eyeball separation adjustment" is very critical, and if I move my head back and forth just a teeny, there's no optical path until I move my eyes back into that one very critical position. Plus, if I have my glasses on (which is a good thing), I can't get close enough to the eyepieces to see much of anything.


Dang!


I could use it for inspection, but I can't imagine that I'd be able to use it with any type of soldering or hot air device.


My original idea was to cobble together a video microscope for SMD work, with a small VGA or composite monitor. Based on my experiences with one particular stereo microscope, a home-brew video scope couldn't be any worse :)




Thanks,


--Kirk, NT0Z


My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from
www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by Harvey White

On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 14:49:59 -0700, you wrote:

>Harvey and the group:
>
>
>I bought a nice American Optical stereo microscope at Goodwill for $6 :)

Very good buy, never paid that little for one.
>
>
>It's in nice shape, was probably new in the '60s, has two magnification levels and the requisite 3-4 inch working distance, but...
>
>
>The "eyeball separation adjustment" is very critical, and if I move my head back and forth just a teeny, there's no optical path until I move my eyes back into that one very critical position. Plus, if I have my glasses on (which is a good thing), I can't get close enough to the eyepieces to see much of anything.
>

Yep, I know that one, the adjustment is quite critical. I have the
10x wide eyepieces on both of mine, and that may make somewhat of a
difference.

Take your glasses off (unless you have severe astigmatism), and use
the microscope focusing adjustments to correct for your
nearsightedness, farsightedness, etc. Remember that the two eye
pieces focus independently, and are designed that way for just this
situation.

>
>Dang!

P'raps not....

>
>
>I could use it for inspection, but I can't imagine that I'd be able to use it with any type of soldering or hot air device.
>

Oh, I can, and do. You use it with soldering, but you don't need it
(my opinion) at all for desoldering. Perhaps the ultimate is to get a
swing arm and stand combination. They're hard to find, though.

On one of mine, I have to go machine a new knob, since the knob
plastic was cheap, and someone played swap...

Oh, and I suggest making a ring light, or something of that nature to
give yourself a good vertical light source. At times you'll want
something that is a sidelight, but for the most part, vertical is
good.

One that I have is a fiber optics ring with a projector lamp as a
light source. I have it turned to minimum and that has seemed to
increase the lamp light quite a lot.

If I run out of projector lamps (I have a spare), I'll rig up
something with very bright LEDS.



Harvey


>
>My original idea was to cobble together a video microscope for SMD work, with a small VGA or composite monitor. Based on my experiences with one particular stereo microscope, a home-brew video scope couldn't be any worse :)
>
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>--Kirk, NT0Z
>
>
>My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from
>www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by Kirk Kleinschmidt

I didn't know that the eyepieces focus independently... Actually, mine (black metal/plastic?) don't seem to move or rotate at all. Maybe they're stuck? I don't want to simply reef on them (!), so perhaps you can tell me how they're supposed to move/adjust? I just use the main focusing rack at present.


Unfortunately, I DO have goofy eyeballs (astigmatism), although at present, as long as my head doesn't move out of position, I can still get a reasonably sharp magnified image with the rack adjuster.

Might there be "wider field" eyepieces for this unit?

And if there are, perhaps the eyepiece magnification could be reduced a bit. At present, the lowest of the two mag settings is usable, but a bit more intense than I might prefer. The high setting seems too be a bit too high.

My model is the "Forty Spencer,"  42-I or 42-L (?)

Thanks!

--Kirk, NT0Z


My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from
www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by Harvey White

On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 19:50:22 -0700, you wrote:

>I didn't know that the eyepieces focus independently... Actually, mine (black metal/plastic?) don't seem to move or rotate at all. Maybe they're stuck? I don't want to simply reef on them (!), so perhaps you can tell me how they're supposed to move/adjust? I just use the main focusing rack at present.
>

There's a metal collar that the eyepieces fit into. Mine are press
fit eyepieces, and can just be pulled out. Rotating the collars
(coarse thread) allows each one to be independently adjusted.

Mine say 10xWF.

>
>Unfortunately, I DO have goofy eyeballs (astigmatism), although at present, as long as my head doesn't move out of position, I can still get a reasonably sharp magnified image with the rack adjuster.

As long as your astigmatism is not too bad, you should be ok.
>
>Might there be "wider field" eyepieces for this unit?

I suspect so, but I got what I got, and that was duplicate 10xWF on
each microscope

>
>And if there are, perhaps the eyepiece magnification could be reduced a bit. At present, the lowest of the two mag settings is usable, but a bit more intense than I might prefer. The high setting seems too be a bit too high.

Ah, well, when you start to look at the pins of a 144 pin IC, you'll
want to have high magnification.

Mine have 3 and 5 levels.


>
>My model is the "Forty Spencer,"  42-I or 42-L (?)

Not sure what mine is....

>
>Thanks!


n/p
Harvey

>
>--Kirk, NT0Z
>
>
>My book, "Stealth Amateur Radio," is now available from
>www.stealthamateur.com and on the Amazon Kindle (soon)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by Kerry

I picked up a model 569 (0.7-3X zoom) at a flea market for $25. It was
dirty and badly out of collimation. I had to take it all apart to clean
the lenses and adjust it. (Harder than it sounds, at least for me!) It
has a 4" working distance and 10X eyepieces. I only use it at the
lowest mag.

On mine, only the left eyepiece is adjustable, by turning the knurled
portion. Like binoculars, you adjust for the difference between your
eyes, and then focus with the rack.

If it is not properly collimated, you will never get the separation to
be right. I never looked through a pair of collimated binoculars until
I collimated a pair myself, but when I did, i said "wow!". With a
collimated binocular microscope, you really do see a 3D image. With
steady hands, it is easy to touch iron to lead and apply solder. You
can tell just how far above the board the iron is.

Kerry


On 7/30/2014 9:50 PM, Kirk Kleinschmidt kirk@...
[Homebrew_PCBs] wrote:
> I didn't know that the eyepieces focus independently... Actually, mine (black metal/plastic?) don't seem to move or rotate at all. Maybe they're stuck? I don't want to simply reef on them (!), so perhaps you can tell me how they're supposed to move/adjust? I just use the main focusing rack at present.
>
>
> Unfortunately, I DO have goofy eyeballs (astigmatism), although at present, as long as my head doesn't move out of position, I can still get a reasonably sharp magnified image with the rack adjuster.
>
> Might there be "wider field" eyepieces for this unit?
>
> And if there are, perhaps the eyepiece magnification could be reduced a bit. At present, the lowest of the two mag settings is usable, but a bit more intense than I might prefer. The high setting seems too be a bit too high.
>
> My model is the "Forty Spencer," 42-I or 42-L (?)
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Kirk, NT0Z
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by Howard Chester

A good & cheaper option to a stereo microscope is a USB microscope. Priced in the £30.00 to £50.00($45.00 to $70.00 aprox).
I use mine for inspection as I have a old PC running Win XP as my W/bench PC. A chemistry stand with a beaker clamp allows me enough space to manipulate the board below with both hands.
An ongoing project, using a USB microscope on the top of a wooden box with my PCB drill & stand mounted underneath allows for precise drilling of the PCB as the microscope has a "cross type vernier built in)
Hope this is of some use, chester

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Chester

Take a look at the setup I made for engineering use, easily adapted for PCB use.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw1b58kITxQ>

Malcolm

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 7/31/14, joeprice@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 31, 2014, 2:36 PM


 









Chester,

Any
suggestions on a good USB microscope setup model number ect.
Do you have enough work area
between the
board and scope to allow soldering. After having cataracts
removed and old age i need
something more
than just a magnifier.

Tnx  Joe   near Chicago









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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by Harvey White

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:53:13 +0100, you wrote:

>A good & cheaper option to a stereo microscope is a USB microscope. Priced in the £30.00 to £50.00($45.00 to $70.00 aprox).
>I use mine for inspection as I have a old PC running Win XP as my W/bench PC. A chemistry stand with a beaker clamp allows me enough space to manipulate the board below with both hands.

That's a good use, but it is not stereo. What you paid for the USB
microscope is what I paid for the binocular microscopes, although I
wouldn't buy one that was more (PS: Nikon is lots more). The swing
arm stand was extra.

>An ongoing project, using a USB microscope on the top of a wooden box with my PCB drill & stand mounted underneath allows for precise drilling of the PCB as the microscope has a "cross type vernier built in)

I have one, I used a Proxxon rotary tool, a ball bearing slide, a
linear stepper, a TV camera and a monitor that had cross hairs for a
graticule.

With a microprocessor controlling the drill rate, I have three
adjustable positions, rest, top of drill, and drill change. Make sure
that you put a foot pedal in, you'll want one.

Very convenient now, and pretty much solves the board/board
registration problem.

Harvey


>Hope this is of some use, chester

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-07-31 by B Miller




On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:49 PM, palciatore@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 


>3. Commercial hot air irons are more powerful. I was afraid they would blow the parts around. Probably not, but that was my thought. And I am cheap. I will probably get one when I have more experience under my belt. You can control the heat by the distance and the small tip allows precise application. But not good for removing SMD parts with leads on several sides.


Brands like Hakko Hot Air Workstation and better and worse brands have the option of airflow control along w/ heat control - and no trouble problem for removing  "larger" parts as you can turn up the heat and air and grab it with a set of tweezers.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-08-01 by Howard Chester

I will reply to the people who posted replies together,

On the subject of what USB Microscope to use;-
I bought a reduced price M/Scope from Maplin (Electronic supplier chain here in the U.K.). The M/Scope comes with a disc with a "cross-hair" and "capture and compare" measurement mode. As to the soldering application, using a chemistry beaker stand and beaker clamp gives about 3 inches of clearance between the board and the bottom of the M/Scope(I would cover the end of the M/Scope with cling film  to stop any damage to the Lens from spatter and vapour from the solder resin). As an added feature, the M/Scope comes with a LED illumination ring.
The M/Scope has auto focus, turning the "focus" ring increases the Magnification from 3x to 300x.
As to the astigmatism issue, as the M/Scope is displayed on a PC screen with your selected magnification, this should not cause any forseeable problems(no pun intended).


On the  posted subject of the "Measuring Microscope" on UTube;-
The measurement option comes with the USB M/Scope, however as this option finds few applications with me.
My appilcation is as follows;-
Use a Lab stand and clamp on the upper layer or a wooden "box" type stand with a hole milled to allow the drill bit to protude about 4mm above the upper surface. The drill stand is mounted upside down inside the box.
To operate, the board is laid with copper clad side upwards. Center the hole to be drilled in the M/Scope cross-hairs, Lift the drill stand handle upwards gently to drill the hole. Move the board to the next hole etc.

Hope this helps, chester

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-08-02 by Peter Johansson

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 9:36 AM, joeprice@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Any suggestions on a good USB microscope setup model number ect.

You are going to have two serious problems with a USB microscope: latency and depth perception.

Latency is terrible with most (if not all) USB microscopes.  This is not a problem for inspection, but it makes assembly difficult to impossible.

The lack of depth perception is why you always want a binocular scope for soldering, and if not a scope then jewelers glasses or a large lens.

-p.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-08-02 by Stefan Trethan

Having tested both optical and digital microscopes for soldering just recently I can confirm that the digital version is inferior.
I have looked at the Tagarno Magnus FHD (digital) and Mantis Elite (analog).
<http://www.tagarno.com/products/magnus-fhd-zip-0>
<http://www.visioneng.com/products/stereo-microscopes/mantis-elite-3d-eyepieceless-inspection-microscope>

The Tagarno just doesn't have the same picture quality as a good optical scope, even if you disregard the lack of stereoscopic vision.
On the positive side I would count the high working distance, wide magnification range, and strain-free viewing on a monitor.
But the mantis elite is definitely the better choice for working under it.

Now those two microscopes are probably not an option for the home shop at roughly 3000EUR/USD for either one.
I believe the gap between digital and analog is much closer on the low budget front, simply because of ergonomics.

In the low cost region you have to replace the mantis elite with a conventional stereo microscope (unless you find a used mantis).
The picture quality for conventional stereo microscopes can be very good, if you stay away from the very worst cheapy optics, but ergonomics will  suffer. You'll be looking down into the eyepieces, OK for short term work but no good for days of soldering on end.

On the digital front you can actually get much closer to the Tagarno on the cheap, which is another reason why I decided against it.
You may have to eliminate the zoom optics and autofocus, but there are full HD digital microscopes which can be used for soldering.
Dave Jones from the EEV blog shows a couple of solutions in his videos.

Sorry I can't be more clear, I do believe the optical scope has the edge even on the low budget sector because of stereoscopic vision, but if ergonomics are important (e.g. bad back) I would not completely dismiss the digital version.




As for magnification and working distance, at least I can answer this with more certainty.

You want about x3 to x6 for soldering, and x8 to x15 for inspection.
Don't get carried away with high magnification, you need that low setting around 3-6 for comfortable manual work.
If you can only have one magnification, the lower one is more important.
Two fixed magnification settings is fine, zoom is not necessary.

For working distance the minimum is about 50mm (2"), the more the better.
It depends on the diameter of the objective, you need to get in there with tools at a 45° angle at the very least.

ST

 


On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 7:21 PM, joeprice@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Peter,

Point well taken  After looking on E-Bay I don't know what I'm lloking for other than stereo
what Mag. is needed for general PC inspection and soldering also what about work distance
under optics. Could you give some general guid-lines?

Thanks   Joe


Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-08-02 by Peter Johansson

On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 1:21 PM, joeprice@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Point well taken  After looking on E-Bay I don't know what I'm lloking for other than stereo
> what Mag. is needed for general PC inspection and soldering also what about work distance
> under optics. Could you give some general guid-lines?

You only want about 5x for assembly and 10-20x is good for inspection.

-p.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-08-02 by lists

In article <lrj6md+1vtjf4u@...>,
joeprice@... [Homebrew_PCBs] <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:
> Peter,

> Point well taken After looking on E-Bay I don't know what I'm lloking
> for other than stereo what Mag. is needed for general PC inspection and
> soldering also what about work distance under optics. Could you give
> some general guid-lines?

Something like this probably.

Unfortunatly they don't give a price

--
Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Thru Hole to SMD transition: How to and What to get

2014-08-02 by lists

In article <54310e8549Stuartlists@...>,
lists Stuartlists@... [Homebrew_PCBs]
<Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> > Peter,

> > Point well taken After looking on E-Bay I don't know what I'm lloking
> > for other than stereo what Mag. is needed for general PC inspection and
> > soldering also what about work distance under optics. Could you give
> > some general guid-lines?

> Something like this probably.

> Unfortunatly they don't give a price

Ooops, try

http://www.labequip.com/wp-advanced-zoom-qzsis6-stereo-zoom-microscope-on-boom-stand.html

--
Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/