Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew_PCBs

Index last updated: 2026-03-31 13:47 UTC

Thread

Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-27 by David

Hi
Thought I would share my way of making cheap DIY PCBs to you folk, been doing it this way since the early 70s after endless experiments.
1ST Design your layout, I normally use Sprint because of its ease of use, you can covert your circuit diagram to BMP then use it as a transparency under lay for your track pcb layout.
Once you have accomplished that you can print direct from your lay files.
2nd Paper types, In the early days I used same as allot of you on here old glossy mags, the draw back is to hit and miss and hassle of cleaning paper off.
The best most effective way is to use wax based paper, by using this you
just peel it off the copper and job done, you will find all plastic ink is where you want it on the copper laminate, the paper you originally printed on will be spotless as if it had never been printed on in the first place.
The next best paper if you have no wax paper is ordinary thin old Fax paper, the type that was on rolls, you will need to run under water to get paper off but where its so thin it only takes a few minutes.

Procedure : Print your lay file to paper with laser printer set at best settings, then print to your wax based paper.
Sand your pre cut copper laminate with very fine wet and dry under running warm/hot tap water with circular motion making sure all copper clad is spotless with a nice shinny surface, At this point Its paramount you do not touch copper clad, wipe with kitchen towel to dry.
Now cut your lay file from the paper leaving a extra half inch all round.
Lay the laminate carefully holding by edges as you would a dvd or ic, copper side down on top of your printed lay file.
Use the half inch extra to fold tightly round back end of laminate creating lips which you need to tape down with paper tape.
Once that done run through ordinary Laminator 10 times.
I used to use ordinary house hold iron but there are to many hit and misses, temperatures variants from one iron to the next the thermostats in them are very primitive which can easily damage the PCB surface due to amount of heat.
Using a Laminator as described will give enough heat to easily melt the laser compound but enough to damage copper clad surface.
Now this part is also very important, once you have run the laminate through for the 10th time you need to cool it off quickly so just put it in the freezer for 30 mins which fits the bill nicely.
After the 30 minutes take out of freezer, unwrap, providing you have followed my procedure the paper will just fall away leaving a nice covering on the copper and nothing on the paper.
Now clean with warm water, nothing abrasive
The whole job from start to finish including etching if your organised should take about 1 hour for a board say 95x100mm.
While the board is in the freezer if using granules as I do you can mix with water in piyrex dish heat with gun which i normally direct onto the surface of the mix, not the dish because you only need it warm.
The etching procedure should take no longer than 15 minutes, if it takes much longer by getting the wrong mix you will end up with a pitted surface.

You will always get 100% success providing you follow my instructions to the book, remember copper surface needs to be totally clean of grease which includes your finger prints throughout procedure, Temperature of transferring lay files, to much heat or not enough heat will give same symptoms, Etching, get the right mix keep warm,Glide PCB through solution keeping it on the move, it needs to be in and out of solution fast as possible otherwise you loose print or at best get pitting on track surface.
Actually the most boring and time consuming part of making a successful PCB is drilling the holes, even though I have a pillar drill its still a pain, worse if your getting on in the years like me, and eyes not as good as they used to be.
Anyway hope this is of some help
Regards
Dave

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-27 by Rick Sparber

David,

I have dabbled in this area for a few months but did not achieve your level
of success. I plan to give your procedure a try.

You talk about printing to wax paper. I've had good luck with parchment
paper taped down on regular paper. Do you have any experience with it?

I also plan to try to use thin sheets of copper rather than circuit board.
My goal is making nice labels and scales. If I pre-drill the mounting holes,
they can be used to align the artwork.

I already have pretreated circuit board material for my electronics work.

Drill the holes is the mind numbing part of the job. I built a stand for my
Dremel which has a very short throw. In this way a quick flip of the handle
drives the cutter through the material and back out in less than a second.
The small clearance also minimizes parallax.

Thanks for the gift of knowledge!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of David
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:37 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

Hi
Thought I would share my way of making cheap DIY PCBs to you folk, been
doing it this way since the early 70s after endless experiments.
1ST Design your layout, I normally use Sprint because of its ease of use,
you can covert your circuit diagram to BMP then use it as a transparency
under lay for your track pcb layout.
Once you have accomplished that you can print direct from your lay files.
2nd Paper types, In the early days I used same as allot of you on here old
glossy mags, the draw back is to hit and miss and hassle of cleaning paper
off.
The best most effective way is to use wax based paper, by using this you
just peel it off the copper and job done, you will find all plastic ink is
where you want it on the copper laminate, the paper you originally printed
on will be spotless as if it had never been printed on in the first place.
The next best paper if you have no wax paper is ordinary thin old Fax paper,
the type that was on rolls, you will need to run under water to get paper
off but where its so thin it only takes a few minutes.

Procedure : Print your lay file to paper with laser printer set at best
settings, then print to your wax based paper.
Sand your pre cut copper laminate with very fine wet and dry under running
warm/hot tap water with circular motion making sure all copper clad is
spotless with a nice shinny surface, At this point Its paramount you do not
touch copper clad, wipe with kitchen towel to dry.
Now cut your lay file from the paper leaving a extra half inch all round.
Lay the laminate carefully holding by edges as you would a dvd or ic,
copper side down on top of your printed lay file.
Use the half inch extra to fold tightly round back end of laminate creating
lips which you need to tape down with paper tape.
Once that done run through ordinary Laminator 10 times.
I used to use ordinary house hold iron but there are to many hit and misses,
temperatures variants from one iron to the next the thermostats in them are
very primitive which can easily damage the PCB surface due to amount of
heat.
Using a Laminator as described will give enough heat to easily melt the
laser compound but enough to damage copper clad surface.
Now this part is also very important, once you have run the laminate through
for the 10th time you need to cool it off quickly so just put it in the
freezer for 30 mins which fits the bill nicely.
After the 30 minutes take out of freezer, unwrap, providing you have
followed my procedure the paper will just fall away leaving a nice covering
on the copper and nothing on the paper.
Now clean with warm water, nothing abrasive The whole job from start to
finish including etching if your organised should take about 1 hour for a
board say 95x100mm.
While the board is in the freezer if using granules as I do you can mix with
water in piyrex dish heat with gun which i normally direct onto the surface
of the mix, not the dish because you only need it warm.
The etching procedure should take no longer than 15 minutes, if it takes
much longer by getting the wrong mix you will end up with a pitted surface.

You will always get 100% success providing you follow my instructions to the
book, remember copper surface needs to be totally clean of grease which
includes your finger prints throughout procedure, Temperature of
transferring lay files, to much heat or not enough heat will give same
symptoms, Etching, get the right mix keep warm,Glide PCB through solution
keeping it on the move, it needs to be in and out of solution fast as
possible otherwise you loose print or at best get pitting on track surface.
Actually the most boring and time consuming part of making a successful PCB
is drilling the holes, even though I have a pillar drill its still a pain,
worse if your getting on in the years like me, and eyes not as good as they
used to be.
Anyway hope this is of some help
Regards
Dave




------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-27 by Roger Blair

David,
Perhaps I'm having a senior moment here, but I don't understand your
quoted text below...
What is the purpose of laser printing to paper, if you then print
(laser?) again to waxed paper?
Are you referring to the common old style of waxed paper used for food
wrapping?
Doesn't laser printing to waxed paper melt the wax, and contaminate the
ink and printer?
Could you please break down the process in more detail?
Thanks,
Roger

------ Original Message ------
From: "David" <satdaveuk@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 7/26/2013 10:37:27 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

>"Procedure : Print your lay file to paper with laser printer set at
>best settings, then print to your wax based paper."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-28 by AlienRelics

I suspect he really means the backing from label paper. It has been nearly impossible to find actual waxed paper for quite a long time.

There is also silicone coated baking paper. Both it and label backing have been used by people here with success.

And David, thank you very much for detailing out your process.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Blair" <Roger.Blair@...> wrote:
>
> David,
> Perhaps I'm having a senior moment here, but I don't understand your
> quoted text below...
> What is the purpose of laser printing to paper, if you then print
> (laser?) again to waxed paper?
> Are you referring to the common old style of waxed paper used for food
> wrapping?
> Doesn't laser printing to waxed paper melt the wax, and contaminate the
> ink and printer?
> Could you please break down the process in more detail?
> Thanks,
> Roger
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "David" <satdaveuk@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 7/26/2013 10:37:27 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards
>
> >"Procedure : Print your lay file to paper with laser printer set at
> >best settings, then print to your wax based paper."
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-28 by Robin Whittle

Hi Dave,

I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message would
be easier to find in the archives.

Can you tell us what type of laser printer you use?

Also, exactly what is your source of paper. I think the backing paper
for adhesive labels is paper infused or coated with polyethylene, rather
than wax. Wax would melt and stick in the laser printer's fuser roller.
I am surprised that the toner sticks well enough to the paper you use
in order to bond to that rather than sticking on the fuser roller.

I developed some DIY transfer paper using thin card (120gsm I recall)
coated with a water soluble glue. I wrote a series of messages about
this in July 2012. I was using this to transfer toner onto some
laminating film which I would then bond to a self-adhesive mylar label
material to make robust self-adhesive labels. However, it should work
for transfer to copper too. The advantage of these glues, which are
based on Poly Vinyl Alcohol (not to be confused with PVA Poly Vinyl
Acetate emulsions used for wood glue) is that they dissolve in water, so
as soon as the water soaks through the paper, the whole sheet can be
peeled off and the remaining glue gently washed away. This paper or
thin card feeds well through laser printers, if it is not to stiff. The
toner sticks to it well. The trick is to make it consistently without
bubbles.

I had some success and I think this could be improved upon, but I gave
up this process of making labels in favour of injket printing onto a
difficult-to-obtain matte silvery Japanese self-adhesive inkjet label
material (A-One 29283) followed by baking this at ~120C to drive out all
water from the ink (I am using pigment ink from an Epson Stylus Pro
3800) and then laminating it.

Fax paper is very thin and I find it hard to imagine it going through
the laser printer well.

Also, what sort of laminator do you use? I think there are difficulties
finding a laminator which will accept 1.6mm PCB material in terms of
thickness and also in terms of the board being stiff and requiring a
straight-through path.

What kind of etchant do you use?

I have not experimented with toner transfer onto copper since there are
so many reports of difficulties, and since toner is probably not a good
etch resist. I am happy so far with using laser printed phototools to
expose Riston negative photoresist. My messages in the archives
describe my techniques so far.

Nonetheless, if there is a reliable combination of techniques, laser
printer, heating technique (you use a laminator) and etchant for direct
toner transfer, I might give it a go.

- Robin

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-29 by wcasse

i agree with those who have suggested laser printer label backing (the sheet left after peeling off all the labels).

i work on some big pieces (12" x 5" and larger) and have had very good success with cheap vinyl shelf liner backing - which is the same thing but on a roll. i tried the vinyl first, but it shrank too much (12" becomes 11.75"). the backing paper does not seem to shrink at all.

i print my artwork on regular legal or tabloid paper - this to mark where my printer will be printing the artwork when i put the paper through a second time.

i then cut a piece of vinyl so that it is about an inch larger than the artwork on every side. i peel off the vinyl (throw that away) and iron the backing paper to lessen the curl. using masking tape, i secure the backing paper over the printed template and run it through the printer again.

the toner seems to stick well enough to the backing paper, but comes off very easily with heat; one pass through the laminator or with an iron and the backing paper peels off with 100% transfer, NO water, and NO residue.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-29 by Rick Sparber

Like so many of you, I was fascinated with David's work on using a laser
printer and laminator to fuse toner onto copper. It was all there in his
email, although a bit compact. With his permission, I have unpacked that
email into a procedure. This document will evolve as David makes
changes/corrections. He also plans to add pictures. Thanks Dave!

The last round of changes came from questions from the group. So keep those
questions coming.

If you are interested, please see

http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf

Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of David
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:37 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

Hi
Thought I would share my way of making cheap DIY PCBs to you folk, been
doing it this way since the early 70s after endless experiments.
1ST Design your layout, I normally use Sprint because of its ease of use,
you can covert your circuit diagram to BMP then use it as a transparency
under lay for your track pcb layout.
Once you have accomplished that you can print direct from your lay files.
2nd Paper types, In the early days I used same as allot of you on here old
glossy mags, the draw back is to hit and miss and hassle of cleaning paper
off.
The best most effective way is to use wax based paper, by using this you
just peel it off the copper and job done, you will find all plastic ink is
where you want it on the copper laminate, the paper you originally printed
on will be spotless as if it had never been printed on in the first place.
The next best paper if you have no wax paper is ordinary thin old Fax paper,
the type that was on rolls, you will need to run under water to get paper
off but where its so thin it only takes a few minutes.

Procedure : Print your lay file to paper with laser printer set at best
settings, then print to your wax based paper.
Sand your pre cut copper laminate with very fine wet and dry under running
warm/hot tap water with circular motion making sure all copper clad is
spotless with a nice shinny surface, At this point Its paramount you do not
touch copper clad, wipe with kitchen towel to dry.
Now cut your lay file from the paper leaving a extra half inch all round.
Lay the laminate carefully holding by edges as you would a dvd or ic,
copper side down on top of your printed lay file.
Use the half inch extra to fold tightly round back end of laminate creating
lips which you need to tape down with paper tape.
Once that done run through ordinary Laminator 10 times.
I used to use ordinary house hold iron but there are to many hit and misses,
temperatures variants from one iron to the next the thermostats in them are
very primitive which can easily damage the PCB surface due to amount of
heat.
Using a Laminator as described will give enough heat to easily melt the
laser compound but enough to damage copper clad surface.
Now this part is also very important, once you have run the laminate through
for the 10th time you need to cool it off quickly so just put it in the
freezer for 30 mins which fits the bill nicely.
After the 30 minutes take out of freezer, unwrap, providing you have
followed my procedure the paper will just fall away leaving a nice covering
on the copper and nothing on the paper.
Now clean with warm water, nothing abrasive The whole job from start to
finish including etching if your organised should take about 1 hour for a
board say 95x100mm.
While the board is in the freezer if using granules as I do you can mix with
water in piyrex dish heat with gun which i normally direct onto the surface
of the mix, not the dish because you only need it warm.
The etching procedure should take no longer than 15 minutes, if it takes
much longer by getting the wrong mix you will end up with a pitted surface.

You will always get 100% success providing you follow my instructions to the
book, remember copper surface needs to be totally clean of grease which
includes your finger prints throughout procedure, Temperature of
transferring lay files, to much heat or not enough heat will give same
symptoms, Etching, get the right mix keep warm,Glide PCB through solution
keeping it on the move, it needs to be in and out of solution fast as
possible otherwise you loose print or at best get pitting on track surface.
Actually the most boring and time consuming part of making a successful PCB
is drilling the holes, even though I have a pillar drill its still a pain,
worse if your getting on in the years like me, and eyes not as good as they
used to be.
Anyway hope this is of some help
Regards
Dave

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-29 by cunningfellow

> Someone wrote:
>
> been doing it this way since the early
> 70s after endless experiments.

Thats nothing. I have been doing it that
way since 1736. Although it wasn't until
laser printers where either first made in
the mid 70s or possibly when the first
commercially viable printer came out in
1981 that the common people did it.

The big step was in the very late 80's
or early 90's when xerox released a paper
about their novel new idea for using
laser printer toner as an etchant mask
that the idea REALLY took off.

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-29 by David

Hi Rick
I did try very recently to print directly onto copper sticky back as used for Faraday shielding of coils etc.
What I did was applied the copper surface sticky side down to thin card.
Cleaned upper copper surface with the wet/dry emery paper applying water to the wet/dry not the actual surface because I didn't want the copper backing to get soaked.
Run it through the printer with one of my lay files loaded, and it was a disaster parts of the track were missing and what was there was smudged.
I am sure it was down to heat, Was tempted to cook the copper then while still hot retry but I was worried because theirs a very good chance I would have rendered my printer useless.
Hopefully either you or someone else will go the extra mile and try it maybe on a old laser printer.
I do know that's what the lads are having to do with the hacked direct printing conversions but most of them have either changed or modified the rollers etc because at the very least the kit isnt going to last very long.
Regards

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> I have dabbled in this area for a few months but did not achieve your level
> of success. I plan to give your procedure a try.
>
> You talk about printing to wax paper. I've had good luck with parchment
> paper taped down on regular paper. Do you have any experience with it?
>
> I also plan to try to use thin sheets of copper rather than circuit board.
> My goal is making nice labels and scales. If I pre-drill the mounting holes,
> they can be used to align the artwork.
>
> I already have pretreated circuit board material for my electronics work.
>
> Drill the holes is the mind numbing part of the job. I built a stand for my
> Dremel which has a very short throw. In this way a quick flip of the handle
> drives the cutter through the material and back out in less than a second.
> The small clearance also minimizes parallax.
>
> Thanks for the gift of knowledge!
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of David
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:37 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards
>
> Hi
> Thought I would share my way of making cheap DIY PCBs to you folk, been
> doing it this way since the early 70s after endless experiments.
> 1ST Design your layout, I normally use Sprint because of its ease of use,
> you can covert your circuit diagram to BMP then use it as a transparency
> under lay for your track pcb layout.
> Once you have accomplished that you can print direct from your lay files.
> 2nd Paper types, In the early days I used same as allot of you on here old
> glossy mags, the draw back is to hit and miss and hassle of cleaning paper
> off.
> The best most effective way is to use wax based paper, by using this you
> just peel it off the copper and job done, you will find all plastic ink is
> where you want it on the copper laminate, the paper you originally printed
> on will be spotless as if it had never been printed on in the first place.
> The next best paper if you have no wax paper is ordinary thin old Fax paper,
> the type that was on rolls, you will need to run under water to get paper
> off but where its so thin it only takes a few minutes.
>
> Procedure : Print your lay file to paper with laser printer set at best
> settings, then print to your wax based paper.
> Sand your pre cut copper laminate with very fine wet and dry under running
> warm/hot tap water with circular motion making sure all copper clad is
> spotless with a nice shinny surface, At this point Its paramount you do not
> touch copper clad, wipe with kitchen towel to dry.
> Now cut your lay file from the paper leaving a extra half inch all round.
> Lay the laminate carefully holding by edges as you would a dvd or ic,
> copper side down on top of your printed lay file.
> Use the half inch extra to fold tightly round back end of laminate creating
> lips which you need to tape down with paper tape.
> Once that done run through ordinary Laminator 10 times.
> I used to use ordinary house hold iron but there are to many hit and misses,
> temperatures variants from one iron to the next the thermostats in them are
> very primitive which can easily damage the PCB surface due to amount of
> heat.
> Using a Laminator as described will give enough heat to easily melt the
> laser compound but enough to damage copper clad surface.
> Now this part is also very important, once you have run the laminate through
> for the 10th time you need to cool it off quickly so just put it in the
> freezer for 30 mins which fits the bill nicely.
> After the 30 minutes take out of freezer, unwrap, providing you have
> followed my procedure the paper will just fall away leaving a nice covering
> on the copper and nothing on the paper.
> Now clean with warm water, nothing abrasive The whole job from start to
> finish including etching if your organised should take about 1 hour for a
> board say 95x100mm.
> While the board is in the freezer if using granules as I do you can mix with
> water in piyrex dish heat with gun which i normally direct onto the surface
> of the mix, not the dish because you only need it warm.
> The etching procedure should take no longer than 15 minutes, if it takes
> much longer by getting the wrong mix you will end up with a pitted surface.
>
> You will always get 100% success providing you follow my instructions to the
> book, remember copper surface needs to be totally clean of grease which
> includes your finger prints throughout procedure, Temperature of
> transferring lay files, to much heat or not enough heat will give same
> symptoms, Etching, get the right mix keep warm,Glide PCB through solution
> keeping it on the move, it needs to be in and out of solution fast as
> possible otherwise you loose print or at best get pitting on track surface.
> Actually the most boring and time consuming part of making a successful PCB
> is drilling the holes, even though I have a pillar drill its still a pain,
> worse if your getting on in the years like me, and eyes not as good as they
> used to be.
> Anyway hope this is of some help
> Regards
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by David

Hi Robin
The printer I am using at the moment is the Samsung ML1860
The fax paper I was using is like the old stuff bit wider than A4 so need to trim it down.
The wax paper as I call it is wax based but has other undisclosed property's, its marketed as Toner transfer paper.
If you go on fleebay they have drped the price to £1.28 per 10 sheets incl p/p, the company is offshore or something like that.
The only bug bare is its delivered rolled up so you need to flaten it down for a couple of days or run it through the laminator warm not hot, to straighten it out.

Regards

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robin Whittle <rw@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message would
> be easier to find in the archives.
>
> Can you tell us what type of laser printer you use?
>
> Also, exactly what is your source of paper. I think the backing paper
> for adhesive labels is paper infused or coated with polyethylene, rather
> than wax. Wax would melt and stick in the laser printer's fuser roller.
> I am surprised that the toner sticks well enough to the paper you use
> in order to bond to that rather than sticking on the fuser roller.
>
> I developed some DIY transfer paper using thin card (120gsm I recall)
> coated with a water soluble glue. I wrote a series of messages about
> this in July 2012. I was using this to transfer toner onto some
> laminating film which I would then bond to a self-adhesive mylar label
> material to make robust self-adhesive labels. However, it should work
> for transfer to copper too. The advantage of these glues, which are
> based on Poly Vinyl Alcohol (not to be confused with PVA Poly Vinyl
> Acetate emulsions used for wood glue) is that they dissolve in water, so
> as soon as the water soaks through the paper, the whole sheet can be
> peeled off and the remaining glue gently washed away. This paper or
> thin card feeds well through laser printers, if it is not to stiff. The
> toner sticks to it well. The trick is to make it consistently without
> bubbles.
>
> I had some success and I think this could be improved upon, but I gave
> up this process of making labels in favour of injket printing onto a
> difficult-to-obtain matte silvery Japanese self-adhesive inkjet label
> material (A-One 29283) followed by baking this at ~120C to drive out all
> water from the ink (I am using pigment ink from an Epson Stylus Pro
> 3800) and then laminating it.
>
> Fax paper is very thin and I find it hard to imagine it going through
> the laser printer well.
>
> Also, what sort of laminator do you use? I think there are difficulties
> finding a laminator which will accept 1.6mm PCB material in terms of
> thickness and also in terms of the board being stiff and requiring a
> straight-through path.
>
> What kind of etchant do you use?
>
> I have not experimented with toner transfer onto copper since there are
> so many reports of difficulties, and since toner is probably not a good
> etch resist. I am happy so far with using laser printed phototools to
> expose Riston negative photoresist. My messages in the archives
> describe my techniques so far.
>
> Nonetheless, if there is a reliable combination of techniques, laser
> printer, heating technique (you use a laminator) and etchant for direct
> toner transfer, I might give it a go.
>
> - Robin
>

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-30 by David

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cunningfellow" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>
> > Someone wrote:
> >
> > been doing it this way since the early
> > 70s after endless experiments.
>
> Thats nothing. I have been doing it that
> way since 1736. Although it wasn't until
> laser printers where either first made in
> the mid 70s or possibly when the first
> commercially viable printer came out in
> 1981 that the common people did it.
>
> The big step was in the very late 80's
> or early 90's when xerox released a paper
> about their novel new idea for using
> laser printer toner as an etchant mask
> that the idea REALLY took off.
lol
We were doing it with laser copiers long before xerox came out with there clame to fame, mind you in those days all are lay files were hand done, didn't have computers and such like in those days like we have today, so much easier now.
>

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-30 by cunningfellow

> > > Someone wrote:
> > >
> > > been doing it this way since the early
> > > 70s after endless experiments.
> >
> > Thats nothing. I have been doing it that
> > way since 1736. Although it wasn't until
> > laser printers where either first made in
> > the mid 70s or possibly when the first
> > commercially viable printer came out in
> > 1981 that the common people did it.
> > <SNIP>

> lol
> We were doing it with laser copiers long
> before xerox came out with there clame to
> fame, mind you in those days all are lay
> files were hand done, didn't have computers
> and such like in those days like we have
> today, so much easier now.

Bob,

You should go in and update the wikipedia
page which shows Xerox as the inventors
of the laser printer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_printing

I've seen a lot of blatant lies on wikipedia.
Like the one about micheal jackson actually
being a secret agent from the future sent
back in time to save us.

Someone needs to be vigilant about correcting
these things.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-30 by James

On 30/07/13 14:48, cunningfellow wrote:
>
>
> You should go in and update the wikipedia
> page which shows Xerox as the inventors
> of the laser printer..
>
>
>

[Insert obligatory not sure if serious image here.]

David said, as one would expect, that he used copiers back in the old
days (to image hand-layed/drawn artwork).

Even the Xerox 914 used Toner :-)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Robin Whittle

Hi Dave,

Thanks for this information.

I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
to any conductive surface.

Can you describe the Heat Toner Transfer Paper you are using?

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/heat-toner-transfer-paper

Is it a gummed paper, in which there is a clear coating of perhaps
slightly cracked or crackable hard gum, which can be dissolved in water?
This is traditional dextrin gummed paper, as used in stamps and
lick-to-stick envelope flaps. It is also sold in jars as "flap gum".

If so, I had all sorts of trouble with such paper due to the toner
jumping around the place. This depended on how dry the paper was - too
dry and the toner would not stick to it long enough to be melted into it
by the fuser roller.

Is it something which water will not touch?

In the write-up of your work by Rick Sparber:

http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/el.htm

Copper Etching with Laser Printed Artwork, by David Pickering
http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf

you mention using the Heat Toner Transfer paper and that after freezing
it, it simply peels off the copper and toner, without any water. I think
this is a most remarkable thing. I plan to order some of this paper.

Thanks Rick for summarizing Dave's technique, as elaborated in these
discussions. I suggest you put a link in your document to this fine
discussion forum / mailing list.

- Robin



On 2013-07-30 10:17 AM, David wrote:

> Hi Robin
> The printer I am using at the moment is the Samsung ML1860
> The fax paper I was using is like the old stuff bit wider than A4 so need to trim it down.
> The wax paper as I call it is wax based but has other undisclosed property's, its marketed as Toner transfer paper.
> If you go on fleebay they have drped the price to £1.28 per 10 sheets incl p/p, the company is offshore or something like that.
> The only bug bare is its delivered rolled up so you need to flaten it down for a couple of days or run it through the laminator warm not hot, to straighten it out.
>
> Regards

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by David Pickering

Hi
The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.
If you notice there is allot of similar type looking paper that others are selling which I cant vouch for because always used the people mentioned.
They told it was wax based paper, that why I originally bought it, maybe its not , but what I can assure is it works with the success rate stated otherwise wouldn't have bothered to pass the information on too you all.
This technique I am using isn't just for hobbies its also used for prototyping in my business.
If your wanting to try it I strongly suggest that you buy from the supplier I mentioned then you know you have something that works, otherwise you could well end up with a half shot job and be disappointed.
Regards
Dave


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 4:29
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks for this information.

I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
to any conductive surface.

Can you describe the Heat Toner Transfer Paper you are using?

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/heat-toner-transfer-paper

Is it a gummed paper, in which there is a clear coating of perhaps
slightly cracked or crackable hard gum, which can be dissolved in water?
This is traditional dextrin gummed paper, as used in stamps and
lick-to-stick envelope flaps. It is also sold in jars as "flap gum".

If so, I had all sorts of trouble with such paper due to the toner
jumping around the place. This depended on how dry the paper was - too
dry and the toner would not stick to it long enough to be melted into it
by the fuser roller.

Is it something which water will not touch?

In the write-up of your work by Rick Sparber:

http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/el.htm

Copper Etching with Laser Printed Artwork, by David Pickering
http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf

you mention using the Heat Toner Transfer paper and that after freezing
it, it simply peels off the copper and toner, without any water. I think
this is a most remarkable thing. I plan to order some of this paper.

Thanks Rick for summarizing Dave's technique, as elaborated in these
discussions. I suggest you put a link in your document to this fine
discussion forum / mailing list.

- Robin



On 2013-07-30 10:17 AM, David wrote:

> Hi Robin
> The printer I am using at the moment is the Samsung ML1860
> The fax paper I was using is like the old stuff bit wider than A4 so need to trim it down.
> The wax paper as I call it is wax based but has other undisclosed property's, its marketed as Toner transfer paper.
> If you go on fleebay they have drped the price to £1.28 per 10 sheets incl p/p, the company is offshore or something like that.
> The only bug bare is its delivered rolled up so you need to flaten it down for a couple of days or run it through the laminator warm not hot, to straighten it out.
>
> Regards




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Robin Whittle

Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin


On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by David Pickering

Hi Robin
The hammers just dropped on the nail for me when you mention gum paper.
The gum paper your probably talking about was and still is far as I know sold off as Decal transfer paper, which was never designed to have any sort of heat applied to it, in fact most on the market was only ever designed to be used with inject printers.
Theirs a very good chance that's what you got hold of and would explain why it was a failure.
The stuff I am on about is smooth as glass with a sheen that feels like wax, the nearest Ive seen to it is as the lads have mentioned on here sticky label backing which would actually make sense although not tried that myself.

Regards


________________________________
From: David Pickering <satdaveuk@...>
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 7:39
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi
The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.
If you notice there is allot of similar type looking paper that others are selling which I cant vouch for because always used the people mentioned.
They told it was wax based paper, that why I originally bought it, maybe its not , but what I can assure is it works with the success rate stated otherwise wouldn't have bothered to pass the information on too you all.
This technique I am using isn't just for hobbies its also used for prototyping in my business.
If your wanting to try it I strongly suggest that you buy from the supplier I mentioned then you know you have something that works, otherwise you could well end up with a half shot job and be disappointed.
Regards
Dave

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 4:29
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



Hi Dave,

Thanks for this information.

I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
to any conductive surface.

Can you describe the Heat Toner Transfer Paper you are using?

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/heat-toner-transfer-paper

Is it a gummed paper, in which there is a clear coating of perhaps
slightly cracked or crackable hard gum, which can be dissolved in water?
This is traditional dextrin gummed paper, as used in stamps and
lick-to-stick envelope flaps. It is also sold in jars as "flap gum".

If so, I had all sorts of trouble with such paper due to the toner
jumping around the place. This depended on how dry the paper was - too
dry and the toner would not stick to it long enough to be melted into it
by the fuser roller.

Is it something which water will not touch?

In the write-up of your work by Rick Sparber:

http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/el.htm

Copper Etching with Laser Printed Artwork, by David Pickering
http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf

you mention using the Heat Toner Transfer paper and that after freezing
it, it simply peels off the copper and toner, without any water. I think
this is a most remarkable thing. I plan to order some of this paper.

Thanks Rick for summarizing Dave's technique, as elaborated in these
discussions. I suggest you put a link in your document to this fine
discussion forum / mailing list.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 10:17 AM, David wrote:

> Hi Robin
> The printer I am using at the moment is the Samsung ML1860
> The fax paper I was using is like the old stuff bit wider than A4 so need to trim it down.
> The wax paper as I call it is wax based but has other undisclosed property's, its marketed as Toner transfer paper.
> If you go on fleebay they have drped the price to £1.28 per 10 sheets incl p/p, the company is offshore or something like that.
> The only bug bare is its delivered rolled up so you need to flaten it down for a couple of days or run it through the laminator warm not hot, to straighten it out.
>
> Regards

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by David Pickering

That,s the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Leon Heller

On 30/07/2013 04:29, Robin Whittle wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Thanks for this information.
>
> I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
> As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
> to any conductive surface.

When I worked for Rank-Xerox in the 1960s, Xerox had a technique using
their original 1385 flat-plate system for direct printing onto copper.
They had some documentation for using it for making PCBs.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by kabowers@...

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:26:26 +0100, you wrote:

>On 30/07/2013 04:29, Robin Whittle wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> Thanks for this information.
>>
>> I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
>> As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
>> to any conductive surface.
>
>When I worked for Rank-Xerox in the 1960s, Xerox had a technique using
>their original 1385 flat-plate system for direct printing onto copper.
>They had some documentation for using it for making PCBs.
>
>Leon

Around 1969 Bell Labs, and maybe Xerox, was experimenting
with using a process camera with the photographic plate replaced
with a photoreceptor plate to reduce big engineering drawings
for archival storage.

The image was formed on the photoreceptor, a dark slide was
inserted into the "film" holder. The holder was slid into the side
of a box containing toner. The slide was pulled and the box
flipped over several times to allow toner to stick to the plate.

The plate was then placed in a charge transfer station and the
toner deposited on a sheet of mylar or paper. I never heard
what voltage they were using. The image was then "fixed"
on the paper/mylar using a very fine mist of trichloroethelene.

I got them to add a step to the process. They used the transfer
station to transfer the image of a PCB drawing from the paper/mylar
to a sheet of copper. They then misted the copper to "fix" the toner
to the copper. Worked really well with IIRC amonimum persulfate
etchant.

Last I heard of the project they were waiting for a new toner formulation
from Xerox. Shortly thereafter we moved out of that building to a monster
complex shared with Western Electric and I lost touch.

Back in the early days of laser printers fuser failures weren't uncommon
and the images were in good shape when they came out of the printer
(assuming they came face up out the back and didn't get turned over and smeared
after the fuser station).

I've thought for years it would be interesting to try disabling the fuser on
a laser printer and trying to transfer the toner from the paper to a PCB
using a homebrew electrostatic transfer station and mister.

Yet another project that will probably stay in the arena of thought.
Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

David,

I would never try to print directly to metal. I would be afraid that it
would scratch the transfer roller.

Once I tried to print to some plastic that I removed from a bottle. It
wrapped around the roller. It took me a few days to figure out how to
disassemble the printer and pull out that plastic. I won't do that again!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of David
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 5:00 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

Hi Rick
I did try very recently to print directly onto copper sticky back as used
for Faraday shielding of coils etc.
What I did was applied the copper surface sticky side down to thin card.
Cleaned upper copper surface with the wet/dry emery paper applying water to
the wet/dry not the actual surface because I didn't want the copper backing
to get soaked.
Run it through the printer with one of my lay files loaded, and it was a
disaster parts of the track were missing and what was there was smudged.
I am sure it was down to heat, Was tempted to cook the copper then while
still hot retry but I was worried because theirs a very good chance I would
have rendered my printer useless.
Hopefully either you or someone else will go the extra mile and try it maybe
on a old laser printer.
I do know that's what the lads are having to do with the hacked direct
printing conversions but most of them have either changed or modified the
rollers etc because at the very least the kit isnt going to last very long.
Regards

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> I have dabbled in this area for a few months but did not achieve your
> level of success. I plan to give your procedure a try.
>
> You talk about printing to wax paper. I've had good luck with
> parchment paper taped down on regular paper. Do you have any experience
with it?
>
> I also plan to try to use thin sheets of copper rather than circuit board.
> My goal is making nice labels and scales. If I pre-drill the mounting
> holes, they can be used to align the artwork.
>
> I already have pretreated circuit board material for my electronics work.
>
> Drill the holes is the mind numbing part of the job. I built a stand
> for my Dremel which has a very short throw. In this way a quick flip
> of the handle drives the cutter through the material and back out in less
than a second.
> The small clearance also minimizes parallax.
>
> Thanks for the gift of knowledge!
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of David
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 10:37 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards
>
> Hi
> Thought I would share my way of making cheap DIY PCBs to you folk,
> been doing it this way since the early 70s after endless experiments.
> 1ST Design your layout, I normally use Sprint because of its ease of
> use, you can covert your circuit diagram to BMP then use it as a
> transparency under lay for your track pcb layout.
> Once you have accomplished that you can print direct from your lay files.
> 2nd Paper types, In the early days I used same as allot of you on here
> old glossy mags, the draw back is to hit and miss and hassle of
> cleaning paper off.
> The best most effective way is to use wax based paper, by using this you

> just peel it off the copper and job done, you will find all plastic
> ink is where you want it on the copper laminate, the paper you
> originally printed on will be spotless as if it had never been printed on
in the first place.
> The next best paper if you have no wax paper is ordinary thin old Fax
> paper, the type that was on rolls, you will need to run under water to
> get paper off but where its so thin it only takes a few minutes.
>
> Procedure : Print your lay file to paper with laser printer set at
> best settings, then print to your wax based paper.
> Sand your pre cut copper laminate with very fine wet and dry under
> running warm/hot tap water with circular motion making sure all copper
> clad is spotless with a nice shinny surface, At this point Its
> paramount you do not touch copper clad, wipe with kitchen towel to dry.
> Now cut your lay file from the paper leaving a extra half inch all round.
> Lay the laminate carefully holding by edges as you would a dvd or ic,
> copper side down on top of your printed lay file.
> Use the half inch extra to fold tightly round back end of laminate
> creating lips which you need to tape down with paper tape.
> Once that done run through ordinary Laminator 10 times.
> I used to use ordinary house hold iron but there are to many hit and
> misses, temperatures variants from one iron to the next the
> thermostats in them are very primitive which can easily damage the PCB
> surface due to amount of heat.
> Using a Laminator as described will give enough heat to easily melt
> the laser compound but enough to damage copper clad surface.
> Now this part is also very important, once you have run the laminate
> through for the 10th time you need to cool it off quickly so just put
> it in the freezer for 30 mins which fits the bill nicely.
> After the 30 minutes take out of freezer, unwrap, providing you have
> followed my procedure the paper will just fall away leaving a nice
> covering on the copper and nothing on the paper.
> Now clean with warm water, nothing abrasive The whole job from start
> to finish including etching if your organised should take about 1 hour
> for a board say 95x100mm.
> While the board is in the freezer if using granules as I do you can
> mix with water in piyrex dish heat with gun which i normally direct
> onto the surface of the mix, not the dish because you only need it warm.
> The etching procedure should take no longer than 15 minutes, if it
> takes much longer by getting the wrong mix you will end up with a pitted
surface.
>
> You will always get 100% success providing you follow my instructions
> to the book, remember copper surface needs to be totally clean of
> grease which includes your finger prints throughout procedure,
> Temperature of transferring lay files, to much heat or not enough heat
> will give same symptoms, Etching, get the right mix keep warm,Glide
> PCB through solution keeping it on the move, it needs to be in and out
> of solution fast as possible otherwise you loose print or at best get
pitting on track surface.
> Actually the most boring and time consuming part of making a
> successful PCB is drilling the holes, even though I have a pillar
> drill its still a pain, worse if your getting on in the years like me,
> and eyes not as good as they used to be.
> Anyway hope this is of some help
> Regards
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

Robin,

I just added a reference to the group but will collect more input before
publishing the next version of the article.

Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Robin Whittle
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 8:30 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi Dave,

...

Thanks Rick for summarizing Dave's technique, as elaborated in these
discussions. I suggest you put a link in your document to this fine
discussion forum / mailing list.

- Robin

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

Dave,

I found this on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PCB-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ca75648f

I think this is the correct vendor. Notice that they have a warning that their supplies are almost gone. Don't know if that is true or just a sales technique.

Thanks,

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:39 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi
The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.
If you notice there is allot of similar type looking paper that others are selling which I cant vouch for because always used the people mentioned.
They told it was wax based paper, that why I originally bought it, maybe its not , but what I can assure is it works with the success rate stated otherwise wouldn't have bothered to pass the information on too you all.
This technique I am using isn't just for hobbies its also used for prototyping in my business. If your wanting to try it I strongly suggest that you buy from the supplier I mentioned then you know you have something that works, otherwise you could well end up with a half shot job and be disappointed.
Regards
Dave


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 4:29
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks for this information.

I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
to any conductive surface.

Can you describe the Heat Toner Transfer Paper you are using?

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/heat-toner-transfer-paper

Is it a gummed paper, in which there is a clear coating of perhaps
slightly cracked or crackable hard gum, which can be dissolved in water?
This is traditional dextrin gummed paper, as used in stamps and
lick-to-stick envelope flaps. It is also sold in jars as "flap gum".

If so, I had all sorts of trouble with such paper due to the toner
jumping around the place. This depended on how dry the paper was - too
dry and the toner would not stick to it long enough to be melted into it
by the fuser roller.

Is it something which water will not touch?

In the write-up of your work by Rick Sparber:

http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/el.htm

Copper Etching with Laser Printed Artwork, by David Pickering
http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf

you mention using the Heat Toner Transfer paper and that after freezing
it, it simply peels off the copper and toner, without any water. I think
this is a most remarkable thing. I plan to order some of this paper.

Thanks Rick for summarizing Dave's technique, as elaborated in these
discussions. I suggest you put a link in your document to this fine
discussion forum / mailing list.

- Robin



On 2013-07-30 10:17 AM, David wrote:

> Hi Robin
> The printer I am using at the moment is the Samsung ML1860
> The fax paper I was using is like the old stuff bit wider than A4 so need to trim it down.
> The wax paper as I call it is wax based but has other undisclosed property's, its marketed as Toner transfer paper.
> If you go on fleebay they have drped the price to £1.28 per 10 sheets incl p/p, the company is offshore or something like that.
> The only bug bare is its delivered rolled up so you need to flaten it down for a couple of days or run it through the laminator warm not hot, to straighten it out.
>
> Regards




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with 21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner, it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with 21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links






------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Pict

Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John


From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique






I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Harvey White

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:

>I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner, it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.
>
>So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that the toner will breakdown.

I think that the "more copper" argument has little effect on the total
etching time. If you have enough etchant flow, I'd simply expect the
same "density" of etchant on each square area of the board, and if it
etches, it won't be at a different rate. In etching different sized
boards, I haven't seen all that much difference in etch times. It's
more related to etchant strength and temperature than otherwise.

The problem with most xerox process copiers is that charge tends to
congregate at the edges of the black area. They've come a long way in
fixing that problem, but it still exists. A large black area of toner
will almost inevitably be thinner at the center.

One way to "fix" the problem is to use a crosshatch fill with very
small dots that still shields (mostly) what you want to shield, but
the laser printer sees as a series of small lines with a lot of edges.

That is also a trick to control board warpage, since (at least they
used to) warp with large areas of copper. That may be a definite case
with older paper based single sided boards.

You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top
of the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more
rugged as well as eliminating some of the holes.

Harvey

>
>Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am taking liberties with the paper.
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.
>
>I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.
>
>I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with 21 minutes to go.
>
>One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.
>
>Using the laminator is pure genus!
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>That's the one Robin
>As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>
>
>
>Hi Dave,
>
>Thanks - I ordered this material:
>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631
>
>A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
>PCB Electronic Prototype
>
>1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
>seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.
>
>- Robin
>
>On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:
>
>> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
>> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

As a side test, I took one of my coupons and stuck it on an old credit card. Then I ran it through the laminator 10 times and in the freezer for 30 minutes. All of the toner transferred. So here is a way to indirectly laser print onto plastic. I'm sure some kind of cover coat is needed to protect the toner since it is on the surface and not soaked in.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with 21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links






------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

John,

I believe I have adjusted the printer for the darkest print but can't be
sure. This HP laser printer has very few options. I selected the highest
resolution and also told it I was printing to velum.

Maybe I'm just arriving where others have already left, but I'm fairly
convinced that parchment paper does not release the toner as well as what
Dave recommends. Time to order some of that wax paper!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Pict
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:13 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John


From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique






I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from seller
http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you sent
> marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

I'm not sure people on this BBS have seen this old article:

http://rick.sparber.org/ttm.pdf

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with 21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links






------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by Rick Sparber

Harvey,

You make a lot of sense. The etchant will become "used up" sooner but should
do the job.

I'm playing with etching text into copper. Having a bunch of little dots
would not looks so good.

Never heard of "green foil". A search turned up plenty of foil that is green
but I doubt that is what you are suggesting.

One thing I'm playing with now is the use of 3M Blue painter's tape to hold
on the artwork. It releases a lot easier than 3M frosty Scotch tape.
However, the toner does not fuse into the metal after 10 passes through the
laminator if this blue tape is over the top. This time around I'm only using
on the perimeter. David talked about wrapping the edges of the artwork
around the board. That would avoid the problem of tape over the top of the
artwork.

Another thing I am trying right now is to take the sample out of the
laminator after 5 passes and press it between two blocks of smooth aluminum
with a big chunk of steel on top. I left it there for 1 minute and then put
it in the freezer for 15 (not 30) minutes. The toner did not fuse at all. I
will now repeat the test with 10 passes, press, and freezer for 15 minutes.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Harvey White
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:16 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:

>I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment
paper does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.
>
>So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

I think that the "more copper" argument has little effect on the total
etching time. If you have enough etchant flow, I'd simply expect the same
"density" of etchant on each square area of the board, and if it etches, it
won't be at a different rate. In etching different sized boards, I haven't
seen all that much difference in etch times. It's more related to etchant
strength and temperature than otherwise.

The problem with most xerox process copiers is that charge tends to
congregate at the edges of the black area. They've come a long way in
fixing that problem, but it still exists. A large black area of toner will
almost inevitably be thinner at the center.

One way to "fix" the problem is to use a crosshatch fill with very small
dots that still shields (mostly) what you want to shield, but the laser
printer sees as a series of small lines with a lot of edges.

That is also a trick to control board warpage, since (at least they used to)
warp with large areas of copper. That may be a definite case with older
paper based single sided boards.

You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top of
the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more rugged as
well as eliminating some of the holes.

Harvey

>
>Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit
>Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.
>
>I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.
>
>I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.
>
>One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.
>
>Using the laminator is pure genus!
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit
>Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>That's the one Robin
>As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
>flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a
>couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of
>times
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit
>Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>
>
>
>Hi Dave,
>
>Thanks - I ordered this material:
>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631
>
>A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY PCB Electronic
>Prototype
>
>1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
>seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.
>
>- Robin
>
>On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:
>
>> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you sent
>> marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-30 by <n0tt1@...>

Can you 'splain the green foil thing to "seal" the
top of the toner?

Charlie

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:15:38 -0400 Harvey White <madyn@...>
writes:

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:
You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top
of the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more
rugged as well as eliminating some of the holes.

Harvey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Sam Rod

The green foil fills in "micro" gaps, and adds a layer of additional protecting to the transfer toner.
other than that? nothing. Just my personal opinion

If you get a good layer of toner? go with it.

I usually use a permanent marker to fill in what I believe to be light spots.

S



On Jul 30, 2013, at 6:12 PM, <n0tt1@...> wrote:

> Can you 'splain the green foil thing to "seal" the
> top of the toner?
>
> Charlie
>
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:15:38 -0400 Harvey White <madyn@...>
> writes:
>
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:
> You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top
> of the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more
> rugged as well as eliminating some of the holes.
>
> Harvey
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Rick Sparber

Well, I learned a few things today. The most important lesson was that parchment paper does work but I had to use a roller after running it through the laminator 10 times. I also learned that 15 minutes in the freezer was enough.

Using some used ferric chloride, I etched a small copper plate for 12 minutes. It took off maybe 0.001" of metal which is certainly enough to see the raised letters. Maybe of more surprise was that the toner did not break down. The solution was at ambient temperature which is about 106° since I was outside here in Phoenix.

Without using the roller, the toner would not transfer from parchment paper to copper plate. I also had zero luck with Avery label backing paper. I used a single piece of 3M magic tape over the 1/4" x 3/4" piece of artwork and that worked fine. Maybe a lower quality tape would fall off in the freezer. That would be nice.

Rick



-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with 21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times


________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links






------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Harvey White

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 14:36:31 -0700, you wrote:

>Harvey,
>
>You make a lot of sense. The etchant will become "used up" sooner but should
>do the job.

If you use the HCL/peroxide etchant, it's so cheap that you don't need
to worry too much. It also regenerates with air, so you don't need to
worry about running out so much.

>
>I'm playing with etching text into copper. Having a bunch of little dots
>would not looks so good.
Actually, it's a crosshatch, and you get to pick the size. It's not
the printing screen you'd expect in printing.

>
>Never heard of "green foil". A search turned up plenty of foil that is green
>but I doubt that is what you are suggesting.

Pulsar TRF film, Mouser has it, amongst others.


>
>One thing I'm playing with now is the use of 3M Blue painter's tape to hold
>on the artwork. It releases a lot easier than 3M frosty Scotch tape.
>However, the toner does not fuse into the metal after 10 passes through the
>laminator if this blue tape is over the top.

It's acting like an insulator. I use thin stationary labels used for
laser printers, say an inch and a half by about half an inch. I
overlap the artwork on a border (no artwork at all) by about 1/4 inch.
I manage to do this only on one side, and always feed in from that
side.

For the laminator I use (GBC creative), I use the Pulsar paper (not
what you're using) and run through six times to 8 times, varying the
position on the laminator to avoid colder spots, and turning the board
over half way through (that may avoid colder top and bottom rollers).


>This time around I'm only using
>on the perimeter. David talked about wrapping the edges of the artwork
>around the board. That would avoid the problem of tape over the top of the
>artwork.

Good idea. however, if you have tape on all four sides, does the
artwork wrinkle? May not be a good idea.

>
>Another thing I am trying right now is to take the sample out of the
>laminator after 5 passes and press it between two blocks of smooth aluminum
>with a big chunk of steel on top. I left it there for 1 minute and then put
>it in the freezer for 15 (not 30) minutes. The toner did not fuse at all.

I'd think that the board does not get hot enough with 5 passes and
your laminator. If you can set the temperature, try higher if it
already isn't at the top temperature.

Harvey

>I
>will now repeat the test with 10 passes, press, and freezer for 15 minutes.
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of Harvey White
>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:16 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
>Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment
>paper does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
>laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
>is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
>artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
>it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.
>>
>>So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
>print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
>format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
>so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
>means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
>the toner will breakdown.
>
>I think that the "more copper" argument has little effect on the total
>etching time. If you have enough etchant flow, I'd simply expect the same
>"density" of etchant on each square area of the board, and if it etches, it
>won't be at a different rate. In etching different sized boards, I haven't
>seen all that much difference in etch times. It's more related to etchant
>strength and temperature than otherwise.
>
>The problem with most xerox process copiers is that charge tends to
>congregate at the edges of the black area. They've come a long way in
>fixing that problem, but it still exists. A large black area of toner will
>almost inevitably be thinner at the center.
>
>One way to "fix" the problem is to use a crosshatch fill with very small
>dots that still shields (mostly) what you want to shield, but the laser
>printer sees as a series of small lines with a lot of edges.
>
>That is also a trick to control board warpage, since (at least they used to)
>warp with large areas of copper. That may be a definite case with older
>paper based single sided boards.
>
>You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top of
>the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more rugged as
>well as eliminating some of the holes.
>
>Harvey
>
>>
>>Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
>taking liberties with the paper.
>>
>>Rick
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
>>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit
>>Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>>
>>The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
>HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
>mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
>"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.
>>
>>I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
>of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.
>>
>>I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
>21 minutes to go.
>>
>>One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
>placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
>up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
>coupon.
>>
>>Using the laminator is pure genus!
>>
>>Rick
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
>>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit
>>Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>>
>>That's the one Robin
>>As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
>>flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a
>>couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of
>>times
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
>>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
>>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit
>>Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi Dave,
>>
>>Thanks - I ordered this material:
>>
>>http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631
>>
>>A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY PCB Electronic
>>Prototype
>>
>>1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
>>seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.
>>
>>- Robin
>>
>>On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:
>>
>>> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you sent
>>> marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Harvey White

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 22:12:59 +0000, you wrote:

>Can you 'splain the green foil thing to "seal" the
>top of the toner?

Pulsar (who makes a blue transfer paper) recommends a light foil to
seal the top of the toner. It's similar to the stuff that's sold in
sheets. Put it over a black text on a paper copy, and run it through
a laser printer or laminator, and the "dust" on the foil (or the foil
on the carrier) fuses to the toner. Makes colored or
foil/gold/silver/copper letters.

The use of the foil in making PC boards is to coat the top of the
toner with something supposedly harder than just toner, and to fill in
the gaps in the toner with the foil. Pulsar makes two varieties, one
green for the toner/etchant, the second is a thicker white that is
used to do silk screening. The only difference is that the pattern is
transferred to a drilled and etched board, and the foil is much
thicker.

Put it on, and then you use tape to pull off the excess. (needs to be
done), then you have a silk screen. I normally don't do it simply
because it takes more expensive paper.

Harvey


>
>Charlie
>
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:15:38 -0400 Harvey White <madyn@...>
>writes:
>
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:
>You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top
>of the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more
>rugged as well as eliminating some of the holes.
>
>Harvey
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by <n0tt1@...>

OK, thanks for that info Harvey!

Charlie

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 22:09:35 -0400 Harvey White <madyn@...>
writes:

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 22:12:59 +0000, you wrote:

>Can you 'splain the green foil thing to "seal" the
>top of the toner?

Pulsar (who makes a blue transfer paper) recommends a light foil to
seal the top of the toner. It's similar to the stuff that's sold in
sheets. Put it over a black text on a paper copy, and run it through
a laser printer or laminator, and the "dust" on the foil (or the foil
on the carrier) fuses to the toner. Makes colored or
foil/gold/silver/copper letters.

The use of the foil in making PC boards is to coat the top of the
toner with something supposedly harder than just toner, and to fill in
the gaps in the toner with the foil. Pulsar makes two varieties, one
green for the toner/etchant, the second is a thicker white that is
used to do silk screening. The only difference is that the pattern is
transferred to a drilled and etched board, and the foil is much
thicker.

Put it on, and then you use tape to pull off the excess. (needs to be
done), then you have a silk screen. I normally don't do it simply
because it takes more expensive paper.

Harvey

>
>Charlie
>
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:15:38 -0400 Harvey White <madyn@...>
>writes:
>
>On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:
>You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top
>of the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more
>rugged as well as eliminating some of the holes.
>
>Harvey
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by David Pickering

Hi John
Darkest print option will make everything dark which is what we don't want.
If your printer gives the options, go into graphics and select best quality print, and under Text tab set darkest settings, which will give you more toner on the text and darken text only.
Also if there is a Tab for sharpen Text make sure its not Ticked because it tends to give a sawtooth effect around the edges of what your printing.

Regards
Dave


________________________________
From: Pict <pict@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 18:13
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John

From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by David Pickering

Hi Rick
Its probably true because you wont see it cheaper anywhere else


________________________________
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 14:55
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Dave,

I found this on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PCB-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ca75648f

I think this is the correct vendor. Notice that they have a warning that their supplies are almost gone. Don't know if that is true or just a sales technique.

Thanks,

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:39 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi
The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.
If you notice there is allot of similar type looking paper that others are selling which I cant vouch for because always used the people mentioned.
They told it was wax based paper, that why I originally bought it, maybe its not , but what I can assure is it works with the success rate stated otherwise wouldn't have bothered to pass the information on too you all.
This technique I am using isn't just for hobbies its also used for prototyping in my business. If your wanting to try it I strongly suggest that you buy from the supplier I mentioned then you know you have something that works, otherwise you could well end up with a half shot job and be disappointed.
Regards
Dave

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 4:29
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Hi Dave,

Thanks for this information.

I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
to any conductive surface.

Can you describe the Heat Toner Transfer Paper you are using?

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/heat-toner-transfer-paper

Is it a gummed paper, in which there is a clear coating of perhaps
slightly cracked or crackable hard gum, which can be dissolved in water?
This is traditional dextrin gummed paper, as used in stamps and
lick-to-stick envelope flaps. It is also sold in jars as "flap gum".

If so, I had all sorts of trouble with such paper due to the toner
jumping around the place. This depended on how dry the paper was - too
dry and the toner would not stick to it long enough to be melted into it
by the fuser roller.

Is it something which water will not touch?

In the write-up of your work by Rick Sparber:

http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/el.htm

Copper Etching with Laser Printed Artwork, by David Pickering
http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf

you mention using the Heat Toner Transfer paper and that after freezing
it, it simply peels off the copper and toner, without any water. I think
this is a most remarkable thing. I plan to order some of this paper.

Thanks Rick for summarizing Dave's technique, as elaborated in these
discussions. I suggest you put a link in your document to this fine
discussion forum / mailing list.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 10:17 AM, David wrote:

> Hi Robin
> The printer I am using at the moment is the Samsung ML1860
> The fax paper I was using is like the old stuff bit wider than A4 so need to trim it down.
> The wax paper as I call it is wax based but has other undisclosed property's, its marketed as Toner transfer paper.
> If you go on fleebay they have drped the price to £1.28 per 10 sheets incl p/p, the company is offshore or something like that.
> The only bug bare is its delivered rolled up so you need to flaten it down for a couple of days or run it through the laminator warm not hot, to straighten it out.
>
> Regards

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by David Pickering

Hi Keith
Only just opened your email
Really interesting read
Lucky i didn't damage the printer
Thanks for the information
If you progress down those lines any more let me Know
Dave


________________________________
From: "kabowers@..." <kabowers@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 14:00
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 10:26:26 +0100, you wrote:

>On 30/07/2013 04:29, Robin Whittle wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> Thanks for this information.
>>
>> I think your attempt to laser print onto copper is doomed to failure.
>> As far as I know there is no way of transferring the toner from the drum
>> to any conductive surface.
>
>When I worked for Rank-Xerox in the 1960s, Xerox had a technique using
>their original 1385 flat-plate system for direct printing onto copper.
>They had some documentation for using it for making PCBs.
>
>Leon

Around 1969 Bell Labs, and maybe Xerox, was experimenting
with using a process camera with the photographic plate replaced
with a photoreceptor plate to reduce big engineering drawings
for archival storage.

The image was formed on the photoreceptor, a dark slide was
inserted into the "film" holder. The holder was slid into the side
of a box containing toner. The slide was pulled and the box
flipped over several times to allow toner to stick to the plate.

The plate was then placed in a charge transfer station and the
toner deposited on a sheet of mylar or paper. I never heard
what voltage they were using. The image was then "fixed"
on the paper/mylar using a very fine mist of trichloroethelene.

I got them to add a step to the process. They used the transfer
station to transfer the image of a PCB drawing from the paper/mylar
to a sheet of copper. They then misted the copper to "fix" the toner
to the copper. Worked really well with IIRC amonimum persulfate
etchant.

Last I heard of the project they were waiting for a new toner formulation
from Xerox. Shortly thereafter we moved out of that building to a monster
complex shared with Western Electric and I lost touch.

Back in the early days of laser printers fuser failures weren't uncommon
and the images were in good shape when they came out of the printer
(assuming they came face up out the back and didn't get turned over and smeared
after the fuser station).

I've thought for years it would be interesting to try disabling the fuser on
a laser printer and trying to transfer the toner from the paper to a PCB
using a homebrew electrostatic transfer station and mister.

Yet another project that will probably stay in the arena of thought.
Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Rick

I have to use a heater in my Ferric etch tank to get to a reasonable etch temperature to give an etch time of 7 mins and that is set to 30'C, 86'F
I do use the Edinburgh etch formula, with citric acid added, and that seems to speed up each time I use it.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 7/31/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 31, 2013, 1:50 AM


























Well, I learned a few things today. The most
important lesson was that parchment paper does work but I
had to use a roller after running it through the laminator
10 times. I also learned that 15 minutes in the freezer was
enough.



Using some used ferric chloride, I etched a small copper
plate for 12 minutes. It took off maybe 0.001" of metal
which is certainly enough to see the raised letters. Maybe
of more surprise was that the toner did not break down. The
solution was at ambient temperature which is about 106°
since I was outside here in Phoenix.



Without using the roller, the toner would not transfer from
parchment paper to copper plate. I also had zero luck with
Avery label backing paper. I used a single piece of 3M magic
tape over the 1/4" x 3/4" piece of artwork and
that worked fine. Maybe a lower quality tape would fall off
in the freezer. That would be nice.



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Rick Sparber

Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique



The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using
Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using
silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black
with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used
the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image
the text.



I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the
ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte
Finish Magic Tape.



I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in
the freezer with 21 minutes to go.



One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way
around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the
side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper,
I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.



Using the laminator is pure genus!



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of David Pickering

Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique



That's the one Robin

As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you
will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it
between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run
it through the laminator a couple of times



________________________________

From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com


Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique





Hi Dave,



Thanks - I ordered this material:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631



A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY

PCB Electronic Prototype



1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong
Kong from

seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.



- Robin



On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:



> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the
page you

> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is
shcfstore.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links



------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Rick Sparber

Malcolm,

I normally do use a 200W bulb under the tub to both illuminate and warm the ferric chloride. My etch time is the same as yours. But when I work outside this time of year, it is plenty hot! Last time I measured my dashboard it was at 171F.

Rick



-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:38 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick

I have to use a heater in my Ferric etch tank to get to a reasonable etch temperature to give an etch time of 7 mins and that is set to 30'C, 86'F I do use the Edinburgh etch formula, with citric acid added, and that seems to speed up each time I use it.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 7/31/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, July 31, 2013, 1:50 AM


























Well, I learned a few things today. The most important lesson was that parchment paper does work but I had to use a roller after running it through the laminator
10 times. I also learned that 15 minutes in the freezer was enough.



Using some used ferric chloride, I etched a small copper plate for 12 minutes. It took off maybe 0.001" of metal which is certainly enough to see the raised letters. Maybe of more surprise was that the toner did not break down. The solution was at ambient temperature which is about 106° since I was outside here in Phoenix.



Without using the roller, the toner would not transfer from parchment paper to copper plate. I also had zero luck with Avery label backing paper. I used a single piece of 3M magic tape over the 1/4" x 3/4" piece of artwork and that worked fine. Maybe a lower quality tape would fall off in the freezer. That would be nice.



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Rick Sparber

Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the "WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.



I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.



I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with 21 minutes to go.



One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another coupon.



Using the laminator is pure genus!



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of David Pickering

Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



That's the one Robin

As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times



________________________________

From: Robin Whittle <rw@...>

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com


Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique





Hi Dave,



Thanks - I ordered this material:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631



A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY

PCB Electronic Prototype



1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from

seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.



- Robin



On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:



> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you

> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links



------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links




























------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Rick Sparber

David,

I spent a full day trying to merge your procedure with silicone coated paper (parchment paper). The results are not good enough. Lines a few thou wide are too light. Text around 5 thou wide have a few places where the toner did not release from the paper and fuse to the copper plate.

As I run my finger over the toner that did transfer, it does not fall off. My conclusion is that the silicone coated paper holds onto the toner just a bit too much.


I placed an order for the paper you recommended but I believe it is literally on a slow boat from China. Expect to get it by September 4th at the latest.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:07 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi John
Darkest print option will make everything dark which is what we don't want.
If your printer gives the options, go into graphics and select best quality print, and under Text tab set darkest settings, which will give you more toner on the text and darken text only.
Also if there is a Tab for sharpen Text make sure its not Ticked because it tends to give a sawtooth effect around the edges of what your printing.

Regards
Dave


________________________________
From: Pict <pict@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 18:13
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John

From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by Pict

Hi Dave,

Probably depends on the printer then. If I set my Canon MF4270 to the
darkest print setting there is no toner laid down in completely 'white'
areas. It does improve the solidity of the black areas though.

Regards,
John


From: David Pickering <satdaveuk@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:06:37 +0100 (BST)
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique






Hi John
Darkest print option will make everything dark which is what we don't want.
If your printer gives the options, go into graphics and select best quality
print, and under Text tab set darkest settings, which will give you more
toner on the text and darken text only.
Also if there is a Tab for sharpen Text make sure its not Ticked because it
tends to give a sawtooth effect around the edges of what your printing.

Regards
Dave

________________________________
From: Pict <pict@... <mailto:pict%40pict.co.uk> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 18:13
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John

From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@... <mailto:rgsparber%40aol.com> >
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au>
<mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by David Pickering

Hi John
Yes your correct and we all need to keep that in mind because we are all using all sorts of different printers even though all be it laser types there bound to be variants between different manufactures and models.
Regards


________________________________
From: Pict <pict@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2013, 17:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Hi Dave,

Probably depends on the printer then. If I set my Canon MF4270 to the
darkest print setting there is no toner laid down in completely 'white'
areas. It does improve the solidity of the black areas though.

Regards,
John

From: David Pickering <satdaveuk@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:06:37 +0100 (BST)
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi John
Darkest print option will make everything dark which is what we don't want.
If your printer gives the options, go into graphics and select best quality
print, and under Text tab set darkest settings, which will give you more
toner on the text and darken text only.
Also if there is a Tab for sharpen Text make sure its not Ticked because it
tends to give a sawtooth effect around the edges of what your printing.

Regards
Dave

________________________________
From: Pict <pict@... <mailto:pict%40pict.co.uk> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 18:13
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John

From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@... <mailto:rgsparber%40aol.com> >
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au>
<mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-07-31 by David Pickering

Hi Rick
Yes they are slow , my last order was about 5-6 weeks if I remember correctly


________________________________
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2013, 16:47
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




David,

I spent a full day trying to merge your procedure with silicone coated paper (parchment paper). The results are not good enough. Lines a few thou wide are too light. Text around 5 thou wide have a few places where the toner did not release from the paper and fuse to the copper plate.

As I run my finger over the toner that did transfer, it does not fall off. My conclusion is that the silicone coated paper holds onto the toner just a bit too much.

I placed an order for the paper you recommended but I believe it is literally on a slow boat from China. Expect to get it by September 4th at the latest.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:07 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi John
Darkest print option will make everything dark which is what we don't want.
If your printer gives the options, go into graphics and select best quality print, and under Text tab set darkest settings, which will give you more toner on the text and darken text only.
Also if there is a Tab for sharpen Text make sure its not Ticked because it tends to give a sawtooth effect around the edges of what your printing.

Regards
Dave

________________________________
From: Pict <pict@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 18:13
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John

From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-01 by AlienRelics

BTW, that seems to be the same stuff as the Laser printer foils you can buy from paper and craft stores.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Sam Rod <mail4sam@...> wrote:
>
> The green foil fills in "micro" gaps, and adds a layer of additional protecting to the transfer toner.
> other than that? nothing. Just my personal opinion
>
> If you get a good layer of toner? go with it.
>
> I usually use a permanent marker to fill in what I believe to be light spots.
>
> S
>
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 6:12 PM, <n0tt1@...> wrote:
>
> > Can you 'splain the green foil thing to "seal" the
> > top of the toner?
> >
> > Charlie
> >
> > On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:15:38 -0400 Harvey White <madyn@...>
> > writes:
> >
> > On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:
> > You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top
> > of the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more
> > rugged as well as eliminating some of the holes.
> >
> > Harvey
> >

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-01 by Harvey White

On Thu, 01 Aug 2013 00:25:14 -0000, you wrote:

>BTW, that seems to be the same stuff as the Laser printer foils you can buy from paper and craft stores.

It's along the same idea. No idea if it's more or less expensive, and
even if it's exactly the same stuff, Naturally, you don't want the
metallic foils here, although they would be rather interesting for
some uses, and regular transfer foil would allow you to have different
colors for your silk screen.

Harvey

>
>Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Sam Rod <mail4sam@...> wrote:
>>
>> The green foil fills in "micro" gaps, and adds a layer of additional protecting to the transfer toner.
>> other than that? nothing. Just my personal opinion
>>
>> If you get a good layer of toner? go with it.
>>
>> I usually use a permanent marker to fill in what I believe to be light spots.
>>
>> S
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 30, 2013, at 6:12 PM, <n0tt1@...> wrote:
>>
>> > Can you 'splain the green foil thing to "seal" the
>> > top of the toner?
>> >
>> > Charlie
>> >
>> > On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:15:38 -0400 Harvey White <madyn@...>
>> > writes:
>> >
>> > On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700, you wrote:
>> > You may also want to consider green foil or the like to "seal" the top
>> > of the toner, which may help a lot in making the board a bit more
>> > rugged as well as eliminating some of the holes.
>> >
>> > Harvey
>> >

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-02 by Rick Sparber

That's OK. I can wait. Who knows, I might even find a substitute during this time. So far, no luck...

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 1:25 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi Rick
Yes they are slow , my last order was about 5-6 weeks if I remember correctly


________________________________
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 31 July 2013, 16:47
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




David,

I spent a full day trying to merge your procedure with silicone coated paper (parchment paper). The results are not good enough. Lines a few thou wide are too light. Text around 5 thou wide have a few places where the toner did not release from the paper and fuse to the copper plate.

As I run my finger over the toner that did transfer, it does not fall off. My conclusion is that the silicone coated paper holds onto the toner just a bit too much.

I placed an order for the paper you recommended but I believe it is literally on a slow boat from China. Expect to get it by September 4th at the latest.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:07 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi John
Darkest print option will make everything dark which is what we don't want.
If your printer gives the options, go into graphics and select best quality print, and under Text tab set darkest settings, which will give you more toner on the text and darken text only.
Also if there is a Tab for sharpen Text make sure its not Ticked because it tends to give a sawtooth effect around the edges of what your printing.

Regards
Dave

________________________________
From: Pict <pict@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 18:13
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Did you adjust the printer for the darkest print possible? There's usually a
setting from the printer control panel or possibly via the driver.

Regards,
John

From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:30:35 -0700
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I'm not "there" yet but am getting close. The silicone based parchment paper
does give up most but not all of its toner after 10 cycles through the
laminator and 30 minutes in the freezer. I think my main problem right now
is toner density. The artwork is not a solid black. So any thin spots in the
artwork appears as thin spots on the copper. However, where there is toner,
it solidly fuses to the copper which is great.

So now I am waiting for the laminator to heat back up so I can run a better
print through it. If this does not work, I will go to a positive artwork
format so only black letters are present on a white background. Less toner
so probably it will be darker. That will mean more copper to etch which
means longer etch time. The longer the time, the higher the probability that
the toner will breakdown.

Bottom line: David's process is showing a lot of promise even though I am
taking liberties with the paper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

The test has begun. I printed out some artwork using Microsoft Word and my
HP laser printer. I'm using silicone based parchment paper. The artwork is
mostly black with white letters so the letters should etch out. I used the
"WordArt" feature inside Word to mirror image the text.

I cut out one of the four test coupons and taped it at the ends on a piece
of thin copper plate. I'm using 3M Matte Finish Magic Tape.

I then ran it through my laminator 10 times. It is now in the freezer with
21 minutes to go.

One mistake I think I made was to not tape it all the way around. Before
placing in the freezer, I saw places on the side where the artwork lifted
up. If this is a show stopper, I will clean off the copper and use another
coupon.

Using the laminator is pure genus!

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:07 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

That's the one Robin
As I said it does come in rolls and its quite thin so you will need to
flatten it out, if in no rush just put it between some books for a couple of
days, if urgent just run it through the laminator a couple of times

________________________________
From: Robin Whittle <rw@... <mailto:rw%40firstpr.com.au> >
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 July 2013, 8:05
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi Dave,

Thanks - I ordered this material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170900415631

A4 10Pcs Sheets Heat Toner Transfer Paper For DIY
PCB Electronic Prototype

1,677 sold. It cost AUD$2.21 including shipping from Hong Kong from
seller http://myworld.ebay.com/shcfstore.

- Robin

On 2013-07-30 4:39 PM, David Pickering wrote:

> The paper and supplier that I have been using is on the page you
> sent marked dib-bid and the suppliers name is shcfstore.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-08 by Rick Watson

I've etched a couple of great boards using the Pulsar toner transfer paper and green foil.

The problem I've had is my laser printer doesn't produce accurate artwork. It's not even consistent from page to page, so I haven't had any luck trying to scale the original image to get an accurate print.

This is exacerbated by my wanting to use my CNC router to drill the holes. Holes that are a little off when hand drilling are OK, but not so much when CNC drilling.

Does anyone use a laser printer that produces repeatable and accurate artwork?

--Rick Watson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> Like so many of you, I was fascinated with David's work on using a laser
> printer and laminator to fuse toner onto copper. It was all there in his
> email, although a bit compact. With his permission, I have unpacked that
> email into a procedure. This document will evolve as David makes
> changes/corrections. He also plans to add pictures. Thanks Dave!
>
> The last round of changes came from questions from the group. So keep those
> questions coming.
>
> If you are interested, please see
>
> http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf
>
> Rick
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-09 by Rick Sparber

The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30 minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time. Two of these coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.



I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10 times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun. Every 15 minutes I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001" according to my caliper. The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.



My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique shows promise.



IMG_1203.JPG



Thanks for the great procedure Dave,



Rick





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-09 by James Newton

Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any other details about the "special waxed paper"?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30 minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time. Two of these coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.
>
>
>
> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10 times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun. Every 15 minutes I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001" according to my caliper. The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.
>
>
>
> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique shows promise.
>
>
>

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-09 by Terry

Look back through previous posts to this same topic for a post by Robin Whittle. He gives a link to ebay for the stuff. Very cheap, very long lead time...2-3 weeks.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James Newton" <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>
> Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any other details about the "special waxed paper"?
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> wrote:
> >
> > The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30 minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time. Two of these coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.
> >
> >
> >
> > I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10 times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun. Every 15 minutes I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001" according to my caliper. The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.
> >
> >
> >
> > My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique shows promise.
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-09 by a8050266

Rick,
I have used the same pulsar methods and have gotten reasonable results from them.
Though I do not have dozen upon dozen under my belt I have done my share.

If i could fully control things. I would say my biggest issue is the printer stage,
I never have scale/size issues. nor should you... you should be getting 100% accurate sizes.
good news is this is controllable. and most likely from within your print dialog.
I have tried a few different printers all with different and same results. The one
thing they share that Is do not like is the distribution of toner. In some of my pour areas. I find they are not soilid enough sometimes too much toner is some areas while in others not enough. all with the same print file/etc... just changing the printers so to say.
This is the core if my issues. Bad toner transfers result in bad down the line.

Enough so that even the green foil cant bond well enough to areas that lack in toner.

Holes:
Some of my first ever boards were done completely on a CnC machine. while the accuracy was spot on and the hole drilling was nice. I found it to be too time consuming. and the potential for possible failure due to oversights was .001 But my biggest complaint from a CnC version
was Most of my project boards were small and had lots of small traces that were very close together. after cutting some boards I spent a considerable amount of time cleaning up all the copper tails left behind. which if unattended would result in failed boards. the time spend was too much imho. Which led me to doing them the way i currently doing them.

Draw up the schematic in Diptrace.... print.... etch.... drill.... test... solder... drink beer.
I would say 9 out of 10 boards I do are double sided.

Printers used: Hp LJ 1300, HPLJ 5, HPLJ 1100 and a samsung ML2955w.
they all perform equally imho.

-Sam






-

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-09 by Rick Sparber

I'm away from home right now but if you look back through this thread, you will find the details.

Rick

On Aug 9, 2013, at 1:10 PM, "James Newton" <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:

> Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any other details about the "special waxed paper"?
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>>
>> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30 minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time. Two of these coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.
>>
>>
>>
>> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10 times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun. Every 15 minutes I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001" according to my caliper. The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.
>>
>>
>>
>> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique shows promise.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-09 by <n0tt1@...>

Rick,

When you say that the output isn't consistent from page to page, are
you talking about the same layout, perhaps the same "print" file? or...?

I use a HP LJ-5000...very consistent/accurate. IMHO, "bad"
printer drivers (or other software) can absolutely destroy the accuracy
of any printer output.

Charlie

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:14:08 -0000 "Rick Watson"
<watson.rick.101@...> writes:

I've etched a couple of great boards using the Pulsar toner transfer
paper and green foil.

The problem I've had is my laser printer doesn't produce accurate
artwork. It's not even consistent from page to page, so I haven't had any
luck trying to scale the original image to get an accurate print.

This is exacerbated by my wanting to use my CNC router to drill the
holes. Holes that are a little off when hand drilling are OK, but not so
much when CNC drilling.

Does anyone use a laser printer that produces repeatable and accurate
artwork?

--Rick Watson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...>
wrote:
>
> Like so many of you, I was fascinated with David's work on using a
laser
> printer and laminator to fuse toner onto copper. It was all there in
his
> email, although a bit compact. With his permission, I have unpacked
that
> email into a procedure. This document will evolve as David makes
> changes/corrections. He also plans to add pictures. Thanks Dave!
>
> The last round of changes came from questions from the group. So keep
those
> questions coming.
>
> If you are interested, please see
>
> http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf
>
> Rick
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-09 by Harvey White

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:14:08 -0000, you wrote:

>I've etched a couple of great boards using the Pulsar toner transfer paper and green foil.
>
>The problem I've had is my laser printer doesn't produce accurate artwork. It's not even consistent from page to page, so I haven't had any luck trying to scale the original image to get an accurate print.
>
>This is exacerbated by my wanting to use my CNC router to drill the holes. Holes that are a little off when hand drilling are OK, but not so much when CNC drilling.
>
>Does anyone use a laser printer that produces repeatable and accurate artwork?

Mine probably doesn't (HP2100 series), if you ultimately want to keep
doing this, then consider a video camera and software to accurately
locate the holes (coordinates get close), then CNC zero in on it. Not
a trivial project, I'd think, but worth it if that's the way you will
go.

Harvey

>
>--Rick Watson
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>>
>> Like so many of you, I was fascinated with David's work on using a laser
>> printer and laminator to fuse toner onto copper. It was all there in his
>> email, although a bit compact. With his permission, I have unpacked that
>> email into a procedure. This document will evolve as David makes
>> changes/corrections. He also plans to add pictures. Thanks Dave!
>>
>> The last round of changes came from questions from the group. So keep those
>> questions coming.
>>
>> If you are interested, please see
>>
>> http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf
>>
>> Rick
>>
>

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-09 by cunningfellow

> Someone wrote:
> <SNIP>
> I never have scale/size issues. nor should
> you... you should be getting 100% accurate
> sizes. good news is this is controllable.
> and most likely from within your print
> dialog.
> <SNIP>

Unfortunately not true.

Laser printers will get the X axis spot on
and repeatable every time.

They often have slip on the paper as it is
fed through and the Y axis may on some
printers be totally uncontrollable.

Some are worse than others. The OP may
have one of the very bad Y axis printers.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-10 by kabowers@...

On Fri, 09 Aug 2013 23:44:44 -0000, you wrote:


>> <SNIP>
>
>Unfortunately not true.
>
>Laser printers will get the X axis spot on
>and repeatable every time.
>
>They often have slip on the paper as it is
>fed through and the Y axis may on some
>printers be totally uncontrollable.
>
>Some are worse than others. The OP may
>have one of the very bad Y axis printers.
>
If it's an older printer the rubber rollers may
have dried out or developed a glaze.

A good place to start might be the paper pickup mechanism.

Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-10 by Terry

And yet another problem is that the "pulsar" type toner transfer paper stretches with heat and moisture. I found that no matter what printer I used I could never get double sided artwork to line up close enough for cnc drilling. This is exacerbated on large boards and hardly noticeable on very small boards. I finally gave up on boards bigger than 3" in either dimension and went first to direct inkjet printing (which was never very reliable) and finally back to the negative photo method.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, kabowers@... wrote:
>
> On Fri, 09 Aug 2013 23:44:44 -0000, you wrote:
>
>
> >> <SNIP>
> >
> >Unfortunately not true.
> >
> >Laser printers will get the X axis spot on
> >and repeatable every time.
> >
> >They often have slip on the paper as it is
> >fed through and the Y axis may on some
> >printers be totally uncontrollable.
> >
> >Some are worse than others. The OP may
> >have one of the very bad Y axis printers.
> >
> If it's an older printer the rubber rollers may
> have dried out or developed a glaze.
>
> A good place to start might be the paper pickup mechanism.
>
> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-10 by Harvey White

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 01:26:06 -0000, you wrote:

>And yet another problem is that the "pulsar" type toner transfer paper stretches with heat and moisture. I found that no matter what printer I used I could never get double sided artwork to line up close enough for cnc drilling. This is exacerbated on large boards and hardly noticeable on very small boards. I finally gave up on boards bigger than 3" in either dimension and went first to direct inkjet printing (which was never very reliable) and finally back to the negative photo method.

You can get closer registration (perhaps not exact) by matching up the
distortions. For the top, use mirror and rotate, for the bottom, use
neither of them. That gets the board to line up vertically and
horizontally. Hopefully, if you are having problems with the board
lining up due to printer problems, this at least gets the two to line
up when printed.

Harvey


>
>Anyway, my 2 cents.
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, kabowers@... wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 09 Aug 2013 23:44:44 -0000, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> <SNIP>
>> >
>> >Unfortunately not true.
>> >
>> >Laser printers will get the X axis spot on
>> >and repeatable every time.
>> >
>> >They often have slip on the paper as it is
>> >fed through and the Y axis may on some
>> >printers be totally uncontrollable.
>> >
>> >Some are worse than others. The OP may
>> >have one of the very bad Y axis printers.
>> >
>> If it's an older printer the rubber rollers may
>> have dried out or developed a glaze.
>>
>> A good place to start might be the paper pickup mechanism.
>>
>> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-10 by Rick Watson

I'm printing the same board image, originally from Eagle, now a PDF. I
was trying scaling with the print dialog to get the dimensions right,
when I discovered that the size would change without changing the
scaling. It is only noticeable in the Y dimension, so it could be the
rollers, page feed mechanism, etc.

--Rick

On 8/9/2013 6:32 PM, n0tt1@... wrote:
>
> Rick,
>
> When you say that the output isn't consistent from page to page, are
> you talking about the same layout, perhaps the same "print" file? or...?
>
> I use a HP LJ-5000...very consistent/accurate. IMHO, "bad"
> printer drivers (or other software) can absolutely destroy the accuracy
> of any printer output.
>
> Charlie
>
> On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:14:08 -0000 "Rick Watson"
> <watson.rick.101@... <mailto:watson.rick.101%40gmail.com>> writes:
>
> I've etched a couple of great boards using the Pulsar toner transfer
> paper and green foil.
>
> The problem I've had is my laser printer doesn't produce accurate
> artwork. It's not even consistent from page to page, so I haven't had any
> luck trying to scale the original image to get an accurate print.
>
> This is exacerbated by my wanting to use my CNC router to drill the
> holes. Holes that are a little off when hand drilling are OK, but not so
> much when CNC drilling.
>
> Does anyone use a laser printer that produces repeatable and accurate
> artwork?
>
> --Rick Watson
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Like so many of you, I was fascinated with David's work on using a
> laser
> > printer and laminator to fuse toner onto copper. It was all there in
> his
> > email, although a bit compact. With his permission, I have unpacked
> that
> > email into a procedure. This document will evolve as David makes
> > changes/corrections. He also plans to add pictures. Thanks Dave!
> >
> > The last round of changes came from questions from the group. So keep
> those
> > questions coming.
> >
> > If you are interested, please see
> >
> > http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/cel.pdf
> >
> > Rick
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards

2013-08-10 by a8050266

@kabowers...
My prints and boards beg to differ.
sorry you do not agree.

@ everyone else...
I stand by my post.
print a 5x5 square adjust your printer to the square (if needed at all).
I get a 5x5 all the time... except when I want some other dimension.
the proof is in the prints.

Sam



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "cunningfellow" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>
> > Someone wrote:
> > <SNIP>
> > I never have scale/size issues. nor should
> > you... you should be getting 100% accurate
> > sizes. good news is this is controllable.
> > and most likely from within your print
> > dialog.
> > <SNIP>
>
> Unfortunately not true.
>
> Laser printers will get the X axis spot on
> and repeatable every time.
>
> They often have slip on the paper as it is
> fed through and the Y axis may on some
> printers be totally uncontrollable.
>
> Some are worse than others. The OP may
> have one of the very bad Y axis printers.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-12 by David Pickering

Hi Rick
Just got back from holiday
Nice to here you had success
If your gettng away with 15 mins in the freezer then all the better.
Did a quick PCB for a project before I went away and again all went well apart from 3-4 small pin holes needed dotting with pen.
Its worth mentioning on here that DIY PCBs as we do here with basic equipment will never be as good as manufactures, However the finshed PCBs we can produce are very good, usable and perfect for a one off protyping.
The plus side is your producing it within a hour, and providing you have the parts to populate the board often the project can be up and running within the same day or over a weekend.
Regards
Dave




________________________________
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 9 August 2013, 4:07
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30 minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time. Two of these coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.

I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10 times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun. Every 15 minutes I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001" according to my caliper. The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.

My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique shows promise.

IMG_1203.JPG

Thanks for the great procedure Dave,

Rick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-12 by Rick Sparber

David,

I have one more challenge before I can rest: toner transfer to a cylinder. Then I can cut off a 1/4" length of copper pipe, press fit it around a steel hub, and etch a scale into the perimeter. I plan to preheat the copper+steel and then make a single pass over the wax paper. Etching should not be a problem. I just need to make a fixture to keep it all aligned.

Rick

On Aug 12, 2013, at 12:39 AM, David Pickering <satdaveuk@...> wrote:

> Hi Rick
> Just got back from holiday
> Nice to here you had success
> If your gettng away with 15 mins in the freezer then all the better.
> Did a quick PCB for a project before I went away and again all went well apart from 3-4 small pin holes needed dotting with pen.
> Its worth mentioning on here that DIY PCBs as we do here with basic equipment will never be as good as manufactures, However the finshed PCBs we can produce are very good, usable and perfect for a one off protyping.
> The plus side is your producing it within a hour, and providing you have the parts to populate the board often the project can be up and running within the same day or over a weekend.
> Regards
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 9 August 2013, 4:07
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>
>
>
> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30 minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time. Two of these coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.
>
> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10 times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun. Every 15 minutes I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001" according to my caliper. The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.
>
> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique shows promise.
>
> IMG_1203.JPG
>
> Thanks for the great procedure Dave,
>
> Rick
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-13 by Rick Sparber

James,

This is what I bought:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PC
B-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of James Newton
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 11:11 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any other details
about the "special waxed paper"?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it
today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30
minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror
image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time. Two of these
coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.
>
>
>
> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10
times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The
paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather
used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun. Every 15 minutes
I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The
toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001" according to my caliper.
The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.
>
>
>
> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and
leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and
then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique
shows promise.
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-13 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Rick

I have had equal success using ink jet photo paper from our local pound shop. It is a heavy weight paper, 10 sheets for one UK pound, and the toner separation was complete. It seems that the freezing after thermal transfer is the key. The 0.005" boundary lines even transferred.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 8/13/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2013, 11:56 PM


























James,



This is what I bought:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PC

B-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of James Newton

Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 11:11 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards -

Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any
other details

about the "special waxed paper"?



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,
"Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:

>

> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the
promise date - got it

today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale
with 10 major and 30

minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then
printed, mirror

image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time.
Two of these

coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.

>

>

>

> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top
through my laminator 10

times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30
minutes. The

paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two
samples in rather

used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun.
Every 15 minutes

I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the
samples. The

toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001"
according to my caliper.

The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.

>

>

>

> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color
the background and

leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the
entire surface and

then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job
but the technique

shows promise.

>

>

>



------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-13 by Rick Sparber

Malcolm,

Can you be more specific on the paper you used?

Thanks,

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:06 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick

I have had equal success using ink jet photo paper from our local pound shop. It is a heavy weight paper, 10 sheets for one UK pound, and the toner separation was complete. It seems that the freezing after thermal transfer is the key. The 0.005" boundary lines even transferred.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 8/13/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2013, 11:56 PM


























James,



This is what I bought:



http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PC

B-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of James Newton

Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 11:11 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -

Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any other details

about the "special waxed paper"?



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,
"Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:

>

> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it

today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30

minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror

image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time.
Two of these

coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.

>

>

>

> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10

times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30 minutes. The

paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather

used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun.
Every 15 minutes

I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The

toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001"
according to my caliper.

The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.

>

>

>

> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and

leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and

then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique

shows promise.

>

>

>



------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links




























------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-13 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Rick

Will take a photo of the package and post it tomorrow, as it has gone midnight here.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/14/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2013, 12:17 AM


























Malcolm,



Can you be more specific on the paper you used?



Thanks,



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:06 PM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique



Rick



I have had equal success using ink jet photo paper from our
local pound shop. It is a heavy weight paper, 10 sheets for
one UK pound, and the toner separation was complete. It
seems that the freezing after thermal transfer is the key.
The 0.005" boundary lines even transferred.



Malcolm



I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin

The writing is on the wall.

Ha-ktovet al ha-kir



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/13/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
wrote:



Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2013, 11:56 PM





















































James,







This is what I bought:







http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PC



B-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631







Rick







-----Original Message-----



From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]



On Behalf Of James Newton



Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 11:11 AM



To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com



Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards -



Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique







Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or
any other details



about the "special waxed paper"?







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,

"Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:



>



> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the
promise date - got it



today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale
with 10 major and 30



minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then
printed, mirror



image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time.

Two of these



coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.



>



>



>



> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top
through my laminator 10



times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30
minutes. The



paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two
samples in rather



used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun.

Every 15 minutes



I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the
samples. The



toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001"

according to my caliper.



The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked
perfect.



>



>



>



> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color
the background and



leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the
entire surface and



then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good
job but the technique



shows promise.



>



>



>







------------------------------------







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!

Groups Links























































------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Rick Sparber

Thanks Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:26 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick

Will take a photo of the package and post it tomorrow, as it has gone midnight here.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/14/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2013, 12:17 AM


























Malcolm,



Can you be more specific on the paper you used?



Thanks,



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:06 PM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



Rick



I have had equal success using ink jet photo paper from our local pound shop. It is a heavy weight paper, 10 sheets for one UK pound, and the toner separation was complete. It seems that the freezing after thermal transfer is the key.
The 0.005" boundary lines even transferred.



Malcolm



I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin

The writing is on the wall.

Ha-ktovet al ha-kir



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/13/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
wrote:



Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2013, 11:56 PM





















































James,







This is what I bought:







http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PC



B-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631







Rick







-----Original Message-----



From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]



On Behalf Of James Newton



Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 11:11 AM



To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com



Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -



Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique







Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any other details



about the "special waxed paper"?







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,

"Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:



>



> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the promise date - got it



today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale with 10 major and 30



minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then printed, mirror



image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time.

Two of these



coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.



>



>



>



> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top through my laminator 10



times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30
minutes. The



paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two samples in rather



used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun.

Every 15 minutes



I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the samples. The



toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001"

according to my caliper.



The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked perfect.



>



>



>



> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color the background and



leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the entire surface and



then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good job but the technique



shows promise.



>



>



>







------------------------------------







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!

Groups Links























































------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links




























------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Rick

I added a photo of the wrapper of the pond shop inkjet photo paper I use to my folder, see:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/783475915/pic/list>
It is a heavyweight paper at 250g

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/14/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2013, 12:17 AM


























Malcolm,



Can you be more specific on the paper you used?



Thanks,



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:06 PM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique



Rick



I have had equal success using ink jet photo paper from our
local pound shop. It is a heavy weight paper, 10 sheets for
one UK pound, and the toner separation was complete. It
seems that the freezing after thermal transfer is the key.
The 0.005" boundary lines even transferred.



Malcolm



I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin

The writing is on the wall.

Ha-ktovet al ha-kir



--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/13/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
wrote:



Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Date: Tuesday, August 13, 2013, 11:56 PM





















































James,







This is what I bought:







http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PC



B-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631







Rick







-----Original Message-----



From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]



On Behalf Of James Newton



Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 11:11 AM



To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com



Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards -



Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique







Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or
any other details



about the "special waxed paper"?







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,

"Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:



>



> The special waxed paper came in WAY ahead of the
promise date - got it



today. Wonderful material! I drafted a 1" long scale
with 10 major and 30



minor divisions on it using DesignCAD V14. It was then
printed, mirror



image, onto the wax paper. I printed 4 coupons at a time.

Two of these



coupons were taped to 2 small pieces of copper plate.



>



>



>



> I ran my copper plates with the waxed paper on top
through my laminator 10



times. Then I put the samples in the freezer for 15, not 30
minutes. The



paper fell away from the toner. Then I dropped the two
samples in rather



used up ferric chloride that I put out in the Arizona sun.

Every 15 minutes



I would bump the container. After an hour I pulled out the
samples. The



toner was solid and I had etched down about 0.001"

according to my caliper.



The fine lines of the scale and numbers all looked
perfect.



>



>



>



> My last small challenge is figuring out how to color
the background and



leave the raised copper areas shiny. I tried coating the
entire surface and



then abrading the raised area. Didn't do a very good
job but the technique



shows promise.



>



>



>







------------------------------------







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!

Groups Links























































------------------------------------



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Rick Sparber

Malcolm,

Thanks for the picture. Just to verify - you are able to deposit toner on this paper, thermally transfer it to copper, and then etch the copper?

Rick

On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:48 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...> wrote:

> Rick
>
> I added a photo of the wrapper of the pond shop inkjet photo paper I use to my folder, see:
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/783475915/pic/list>
> It is a heavyweight paper at 250g
>
> Malcolm
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Rick

Confirmed. I use this paper for all my toner transfer PCBs and brass plate nameplates, but was soaking in water with detergent and dishwasher rinse aid after transfer. The final white layer was difficult to remove, particularly on small holes and you had to scrub quite hard to remove it, risking damaging the thin tracks. Changing to freezing after transfer completely transformed the process, small hole centres are now clear of deposit on peeling.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/14/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: "Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 14, 2013, 2:42 PM


























Malcolm,



Thanks for the picture. Just to verify - you are able to
deposit toner on this paper, thermally transfer it to
copper, and then etch the copper?



Rick



On Aug 14, 2013, at 3:48 AM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...>
wrote:



> Rick

>

> I added a photo of the wrapper of the pond shop inkjet
photo paper I use to my folder, see:

> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/783475915/pic/list>

> It is a heavyweight paper at 250g

>

> Malcolm

>

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by James Newton

Thank you Rick. I've added it to the "Media" list at:

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/tonertransfer.htm

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> James,
>
> This is what I bought:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/A4-10Pcs-Sheets-Heat-Toner-Transfer-Paper-For-DIY-PC
> B-Electronic-Prototype-Mak-/170900415631
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of James Newton
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 11:11 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
> Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
> Rick, can you share the source, part number and mfgr, or any other details
> about the "special waxed paper"?
>

<SNIP> SEE HOW NICE IT IS TO NOT HAVE THAT HUGE LONG MESSAGE ON HERE?

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Terry

I just spent the weekend plus the last 2 days trying, and re-trying several diy pcb methods...toner transfer, using HP Presentation Paper, which I had used previously with pretty good success, the "wax" sheets from China sold on Ebay, mentioned in a few posts in this topic and others, and vinyl like you show here, for the first time.

With the laminator I am using, "GBC Personal Laminator" I found that toner was "mashed" and spread out, causing bleeding between tracks and pads. This was using standard FR4, 0.064 1 oz. copper pcb material. The "mashing" wasn't so bad with thinner 0.032 1/2 oz. copper material, as you would expect. I will say that using the freezing method of approx 20-30 minutes the toner transfered 100%...very good!

I retried the HP Presentation Paper I had used previously with moderate success using a water bath to remove the paper after laminating. The freezing method did not work well at all. Less than 50% of the toner transferred, using identical laminating techniques used before. So no go on the freezing.

I tried the "waxed" paper from shcfstore (ebay), in China. This took about 2 1/2 weeks to arrive...not too bad, and worked well with the freezing method of 15-30 minutes...about as well as the vinyl, without the mashing. So, this is a definite keeper.

I also tried, for the first time, the dry negative film, from Digole (ebay) in China. This is my first time using this particular film. I've used both positive and negative film in the past but this seemed a bit easier than any I have used before. It was very easy to separate the protective film and laminate to the board. I have had issues in the past with wrinkling and bubbling, but not with this stuff. It is also very easy to expose...just wait until the exposed film turns a dark blue/violet. Then develop in warm sodium carbonate solution (normal washing powder from grocery store) for 2-3 minutes. This makes the best boards I have done, 6 mil traces with 6-8 mil spacing.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "studleylee" <indigo_red@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Rick, (this is Lee Studley ),
> I bought a full roll of this stuff if you would like to play with some. I haven't tried it yet but it got good press for PCB's
>
> http://www.uscutter.com/ORACAL-651-Intermediate-Cal-Vinyl-24-x-10-Yard-Roll
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> w
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Rick Sparber

Lee,

Thanks for the offer. I would certainly like to try the material out.

I've had excellent results from the wax paper from China when used with my
laminator. But now I want to transfer the toner to the perimeter of a piece
of copper pipe and the rules are different. Can't use the heat plus even
pressure of the laminator on the pipe. Really don't want to make a custom
machine either.

I tried my heat gun and rolling the copper over the toner. Just smeared. Got
any suggestions?

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of studleylee
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:59 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hey Rick, (this is Lee Studley ),
I bought a full roll of this stuff if you would like to play with some. I
haven't tried it yet but it got good press for PCB's

http://www.uscutter.com/ORACAL-651-Intermediate-Cal-Vinyl-24-x-10-Yard-Roll

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> w

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Mark Lerman

Rick,

You might want to try using an acetone vapor chamber. Wrap the toner
around the pipe, perhaps taping it to the pipe, then let it sit in
acetone vapor for a few minutes. Maybe from there into the freezer
for a half hour. Just a thought.

Mark



At 04:07 PM 8/14/2013, you wrote:
>Lee,
>
>Thanks for the offer. I would certainly like to try the material out.
>
>I've had excellent results from the wax paper from China when used with my
>laminator. But now I want to transfer the toner to the perimeter of a piece
>of copper pipe and the rules are different. Can't use the heat plus even
>pressure of the laminator on the pipe. Really don't want to make a custom
>machine either.
>
>I tried my heat gun and rolling the copper over the toner. Just smeared. Got
>any suggestions?
>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of studleylee
>Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
>Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>Hey Rick, (this is Lee Studley ),
>I bought a full roll of this stuff if you would like to play with some. I
>haven't tried it yet but it got good press for PCB's
>
>http://www.uscutter.com/ORACAL-651-Intermediate-Cal-Vinyl-24-x-10-Yard-Roll
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> w
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Harvey White

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:07:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Lee,
>
>Thanks for the offer. I would certainly like to try the material out.
>
>I've had excellent results from the wax paper from China when used with my
>laminator. But now I want to transfer the toner to the perimeter of a piece
>of copper pipe and the rules are different. Can't use the heat plus even
>pressure of the laminator on the pipe. Really don't want to make a custom
>machine either.
>
>I tried my heat gun and rolling the copper over the toner. Just smeared. Got
>any suggestions?
Tape the artwork to the copper, with something to keep it from
twisting (tape on outsides?)

Heat and roll against pressure.

Let cool.

May work.


Harvey

>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
>On Behalf Of studleylee
>Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
>Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>Hey Rick, (this is Lee Studley ),
>I bought a full roll of this stuff if you would like to play with some. I
>haven't tried it yet but it got good press for PCB's
>
>http://www.uscutter.com/ORACAL-651-Intermediate-Cal-Vinyl-24-x-10-Yard-Roll
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> w
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Pict

I don't think you indicate what diameter of pipe but how about trying the
following:

(1) Tack the artwork to the pipe with some magic tape.
(2) Get some flexible brass shim sheet and cut a piece that wraps around the
pipe covering the artwork.
(3) Slide on multiple jubilee hose clips butted together and tighten them
down to pressure the artwork via the brass.
(4) Heat the copper pipe up with a blowtorch for a couple of minutes.
(5) Let pipe cool
(6) Disassemble
(7) Cross fingers
(8) Soak off artwork paper

Alternatively try spray on photoresist?

Regards,
John


From: Harvey White <madyn@...>
Organization: Laid-Off-Press, Inc
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 18:31:14 -0400
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique






On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:07:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Lee,
>
>Thanks for the offer. I would certainly like to try the material out.
>
>I've had excellent results from the wax paper from China when used with my
>laminator. But now I want to transfer the toner to the perimeter of a piece
>of copper pipe and the rules are different. Can't use the heat plus even
>pressure of the laminator on the pipe. Really don't want to make a custom
>machine either.
>
>I tried my heat gun and rolling the copper over the toner. Just smeared. Got
>any suggestions?
Tape the artwork to the copper, with something to keep it from
twisting (tape on outsides?)

Heat and roll against pressure.

Let cool.

May work.

Harvey

>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>On Behalf Of studleylee
>Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
>Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>Hey Rick, (this is Lee Studley ),
>I bought a full roll of this stuff if you would like to play with some. I
>haven't tried it yet but it got good press for PCB's
>
>http://www.uscutter.com/ORACAL-651-Intermediate-Cal-Vinyl-24-x-10-Yard-Roll
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> w
>








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-14 by Rick Sparber

Mark,

Excellent idea! I'm on it.

Thanks,

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 2:13 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick,

You might want to try using an acetone vapor chamber. Wrap the toner around
the pipe, perhaps taping it to the pipe, then let it sit in acetone vapor
for a few minutes. Maybe from there into the freezer for a half hour. Just a
thought.

Mark

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-15 by Rick Sparber

Once I got into my shop I realized that the wax paper would stop any acetone
vapor or even liquid. So I went with plan B and clamped the artwork with a
hose clamp. Then I applied heat using an industrial heat gun. I used a scrap
of paper with toner on it to tell me when the metal was hot enough. Then I
put the copper pipe in the freezer for 30 minutes. The clamping force was
not uniform. Most of the toner did not stick. In a few places it squished
out and left fragments. Where the toner did stick, it is on securely. I
really do not want to build a custom machine just to mimic what a laminator
does so well. Suggestions?

One rather distasteful idea is to put the artwork on a strip of copper, etch
it, and then form it into a cylinder. Solder could be used to secure it.
Even with a precision beveled joint, it would be obvious.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Rick Sparber
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 4:09 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Mark,

Excellent idea! I'm on it.

Thanks,

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Lerman
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 2:13 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick,

You might want to try using an acetone vapor chamber. Wrap the toner around
the pipe, perhaps taping it to the pipe, then let it sit in acetone vapor
for a few minutes. Maybe from there into the freezer for a half hour. Just a
thought.

Mark

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-15 by Rick Sparber

Malcolm,

My original goal was to do the process with commonly found materials like parchment paper. But when I gave up on that approach and went with the China paper, I should have reviewed the archives. I think you have suggested this paper before and it is easy to find locally. Costs more than parchment paper but it sounds like it work. The trick of freezing is truly an advancement in the art.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 7:43 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick

Confirmed. I use this paper for all my toner transfer PCBs and brass plate nameplates, but was soaking in water with detergent and dishwasher rinse aid after transfer. The final white layer was difficult to remove, particularly on small holes and you had to scrub quite hard to remove it, risking damaging the thin tracks. Changing to freezing after transfer completely transformed the process, small hole centres are now clear of deposit on peeling.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-15 by WILLIAM W WINTERS Owner

No mistakes. Just one question.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew PCBs <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 10:07:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Once I got into my shop I realized that the wax paper would stop any acetone

vapor or even liquid. So I went with plan B and clamped the artwork with a

hose clamp. Then I applied heat using an industrial heat gun. I used a scrap

of paper with toner on it to tell me when the metal was hot enough. Then I

put the copper pipe in the freezer for 30 minutes. The clamping force was

not uniform. Most of the toner did not stick. In a few places it squished

out and left fragments. Where the toner did stick, it is on securely. I

really do not want to build a custom machine just to mimic what a laminator

does so well. Suggestions?


One rather distasteful idea is to put the artwork on a strip of copper, etch

it, and then form it into a cylinder. Solder could be used to secure it.

Even with a precision beveled joint, it would be obvious.


Rick


-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Rick Sparber

Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 4:09 PM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -

Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Mark,


Excellent idea! I'm on it.


Thanks,


Rick


-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Mark Lerman

Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 2:13 PM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -

Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique


Rick,


You might want to try using an acetone vapor chamber. Wrap the toner around

the pipe, perhaps taping it to the pipe, then let it sit in acetone vapor

for a few minutes. Maybe from there into the freezer for a half hour. Just a

thought.


Mark

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-15 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Rick

A while ago I had some samples of Auxetic foam gasket material that I used on a pumping system. It is peculiar stuff in that if you stretch it it grows in diameter and if you squash it, when using it as a gasket, it expands to fill all the voids. Clamped between the band and the transfer sheet it would ensure even pressure distribution.

See:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLDbSWSm5i8> for an explanation.
I can't remember who made it but it was reasonably priced.

An alternative would be to use a rubber gasket material.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 8/15/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 15, 2013, 3:07 PM


























Once I got into my shop I realized that the wax
paper would stop any acetone

vapor or even liquid. So I went with plan B and clamped the
artwork with a

hose clamp. Then I applied heat using an industrial heat
gun. I used a scrap

of paper with toner on it to tell me when the metal was hot
enough. Then I

put the copper pipe in the freezer for 30 minutes. The
clamping force was

not uniform. Most of the toner did not stick. In a few
places it squished

out and left fragments. Where the toner did stick, it is on
securely. I

really do not want to build a custom machine just to mimic
what a laminator

does so well. Suggestions?



One rather distasteful idea is to put the artwork on a strip
of copper, etch

it, and then form it into a cylinder. Solder could be used
to secure it.

Even with a precision beveled joint, it would be obvious.



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Rick Sparber

Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 4:09 PM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards -

Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



Mark,



Excellent idea! I'm on it.



Thanks,



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Mark Lerman

Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 2:13 PM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards -

Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique



Rick,



You might want to try using an acetone vapor chamber. Wrap
the toner around

the pipe, perhaps taping it to the pipe, then let it sit in
acetone vapor

for a few minutes. Maybe from there into the freezer for a
half hour. Just a

thought.



Mark

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber

I could not find your question...

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of WILLIAM W WINTERS Owner
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:29 AM
To: Homebrew PCBs
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

No mistakes. Just one question.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew PCBs <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 10:07:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Once I got into my shop I realized that the wax paper would stop any acetone

vapor or even liquid. So I went with plan B and clamped the artwork with a

hose clamp. Then I applied heat using an industrial heat gun. I used a scrap

of paper with toner on it to tell me when the metal was hot enough. Then I

put the copper pipe in the freezer for 30 minutes. The clamping force was

not uniform. Most of the toner did not stick. In a few places it squished

out and left fragments. Where the toner did stick, it is on securely. I

really do not want to build a custom machine just to mimic what a laminator

does so well. Suggestions?


One rather distasteful idea is to put the artwork on a strip of copper, etch

it, and then form it into a cylinder. Solder could be used to secure it.

Even with a precision beveled joint, it would be obvious.


Rick

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber

John,

My copper pipe is about 1" OD but that should not matter. I might want to
etch a 1/2" or a 2" diameter pipe depending on the dial.

By using the transfer paper from China, I don't need step 8. Freezing it
does cleanly release the toner from the paper. The difficult bit is getting
a uniform pressure around the pipe. My first try with just a hose clamp did
not work but adding the layer of shim stock might be the key.

I did spend a few weeks trying to get liquid photoresist to work. I could
find only one supplier and their tech support was zero. I ended up getting
tech support from their competitor (MG Chemicals) and it was extremely
helpful. In the end I got a full refund from the supplier. IMHO, the liquid
was beyond its use by date but they had no newer stuff.

My overarching goal is to be able to etch dials using commonly found
materials. I'm not happy with needing the "moon rock" paper from China but
it does work much better than parchment paper. Come to think of it, I have
not tried using parchment paper and the freezing method.... hmmmm.

Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Pict
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 4:03 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I don't think you indicate what diameter of pipe but how about trying the
following:

(1) Tack the artwork to the pipe with some magic tape.
(2) Get some flexible brass shim sheet and cut a piece that wraps around the
pipe covering the artwork.
(3) Slide on multiple jubilee hose clips butted together and tighten them
down to pressure the artwork via the brass.
(4) Heat the copper pipe up with a blowtorch for a couple of minutes.
(5) Let pipe cool
(6) Disassemble
(7) Cross fingers
(8) Soak off artwork paper

Alternatively try spray on photoresist?

Regards,
John


From: Harvey White <madyn@...>
Organization: Laid-Off-Press, Inc
Reply-To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 18:31:14 -0400
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique






On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:07:06 -0700, you wrote:

>Lee,
>
>Thanks for the offer. I would certainly like to try the material out.
>
>I've had excellent results from the wax paper from China when used with
>my laminator. But now I want to transfer the toner to the perimeter of
>a piece of copper pipe and the rules are different. Can't use the heat
>plus even pressure of the laminator on the pipe. Really don't want to
>make a custom machine either.
>
>I tried my heat gun and rolling the copper over the toner. Just
>smeared. Got any suggestions?
Tape the artwork to the copper, with something to keep it from twisting
(tape on outsides?)

Heat and roll against pressure.

Let cool.

May work.

Harvey

>
>Rick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ]
>On Behalf Of studleylee
>Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:59 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
>Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>Hey Rick, (this is Lee Studley ),
>I bought a full roll of this stuff if you would like to play with some.
>I haven't tried it yet but it got good press for PCB's
>
>http://www.uscutter.com/ORACAL-651-Intermediate-Cal-Vinyl-24-x-10-Yard-
>Roll
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> w
>








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber

I just tried using my old parchment paper with the new process of laminator and freezing. It worked well except where I had folded the paper around the edge. I now see that the artwork must lay flat on the surface and not pop up at all. So the laminator is again preheating and I will go another cycle. Even though I now have plenty of that very nice wax paper from China, I really want to have a process that uses parchment paper or some other low cost and commonly available material. It is hard to beat parchment paper for low cost and availability.

Rick

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Mark Lerman

Rick,

You might want to try the acetone vapor rather than pressure.

Mark


At 10:24 AM 8/16/2013, you wrote:
>I just tried using my old parchment paper with the new process of
>laminator and freezing. It worked well except where I had folded the
>paper around the edge. I now see that the artwork must lay flat on
>the surface and not pop up at all. So the laminator is again
>preheating and I will go another cycle. Even though I now have
>plenty of that very nice wax paper from China, I really want to have
>a process that uses parchment paper or some other low cost and
>commonly available material. It is hard to beat parchment paper for
>low cost and availability.
>
>Rick
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber

Mark,

How would the acetone reach the toner? The metal is on the bottom. The toner is stuck to the parchment paper which is coated with silicone.

I've used acetone with regular printer paper because it soaks through. Works well in that case although I think acetone vapor would work better.

Rick

On Aug 16, 2013, at 7:28 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

> Rick,
>
> You might want to try the acetone vapor rather than pressure.
>
> Mark

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber

I just did a run with parchment paper, GBC Laminator, and the freezer. My
artwork is very fine line. I see one defect but it is where the copper has a
tiny dent in it. So the toner did not come in contact with the copper at
this point.

I can run my finger over the toner and none came off. I see no need to etch
because as long as the toner is fused to the metal, it will etch just fine.

So the good news is that parchment paper is back in the competition :-)

Rick

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber

Malcolm,

You sure have a talent for finding "moon rocks" ;-)

Does look like interesting material.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:12 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Rick

A while ago I had some samples of Auxetic foam gasket material that I used on a pumping system. It is peculiar stuff in that if you stretch it it grows in diameter and if you squash it, when using it as a gasket, it expands to fill all the voids. Clamped between the band and the transfer sheet it would ensure even pressure distribution.

See:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLDbSWSm5i8> for an explanation.
I can't remember who made it but it was reasonably priced.

An alternative would be to use a rubber gasket material.

Malcolm

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Rick

15 years later I worked with two of the foremost Auxetics experts, husband and wife, Kim and Andy Alderson.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/16/13, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 16, 2013, 5:01 PM


























Malcolm,



You sure have a talent for finding "moon rocks"
;-)



Does look like interesting material.



Rick



-----Original Message-----

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 9:12 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com

Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing
technique



Rick



A while ago I had some samples of Auxetic foam gasket
material that I used on a pumping system. It is peculiar
stuff in that if you stretch it it grows in diameter and if
you squash it, when using it as a gasket, it expands to fill
all the voids. Clamped between the band and the transfer
sheet it would ensure even pressure distribution.



See:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLDbSWSm5i8>
for an explanation.

I can't remember who made it but it was reasonably
priced.



An alternative would be to use a rubber gasket material.



Malcolm

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Fernando Cassia

On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Robin Whittle <rw@...> wrote:

> I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message would
> be easier to find in the archives.
>

I've been following all the discussions in this list, just as a lurker, and
have to wonder if perhaps just buying a CNC machine is the answer? See

http://hackaday.com/2013/08/16/101459/

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
act
Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
Revolucionario
- George Orwell


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-16 by Rick Sparber

Fernando,

There is no single answer here. Sure, CNC could be used to make boards. Most people send their artwork to China and get boards back in the mail. Equally valid.

My goal is to find ways to do it with commonly found materials and machines. At the present time it looks like I can do it with parchment paper, a laser printer, a laminating machine, a kitchen freezer, and a few chemicals for etching. That's just part of my hobby and is not necessarily the "best" way to do the job. Ultimately, I want to etch a cylinder which would be rather tricky with a 3 axis CNC.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fernando Cassia
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:39 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Robin Whittle <rw@...> wrote:

> I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message
> would be easier to find in the archives.
>

I've been following all the discussions in this list, just as a lurker, and have to wonder if perhaps just buying a CNC machine is the answer? See

http://hackaday.com/2013/08/16/101459/

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto Revolucionario
- George Orwell

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-17 by Mark Lerman

As Rick said, cnc is AN answer, not THE answer.
Lots of problems with cnc, not as easy as it would seem.

Mark

At 03:39 PM 8/16/2013, you wrote:
>On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Robin Whittle <rw@...> wrote:
>
> > I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message would
> > be easier to find in the archives.
> >
>
>I've been following all the discussions in this list, just as a lurker, and
>have to wonder if perhaps just buying a CNC machine is the answer? See
>
>http://hackaday.com/2013/08/16/101459/
>
>FC
>--
>During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary
>act
>Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad se convierte en un Acto
>Revolucionario
>- George Orwell
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-18 by Rick Sparber

My work on making flat labels continues.

I tried to fuse toner to a piece of galvanized steel. The first problem I
encountered was the inferior thermal conduction of the steel versus copper.
I ran the metal with toner on top through the laminator 15 times rather than
the suggested 10. I also had to rub down some of the toner because it would
not stick. Then, after 40 minutes in the freezer, I peeled off the wax paper
and found that the toner was barely adhering.

I wonder if the zinc coating prevented the toner from soaking into the pores
of the steel. Seems reasonable. I will try some bare steel and then aluminum
sheet. Certainly do not want to pay for copper if I can help it.

Rick

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-18 by Rick Watson

What about brass? You should able to get various thicknesses. I have a
roll that's about 12" x 24" x 0.005. You should able to put the toner on
flat, then if you're still trying to make a round label, glue or solder
to the brass. You can also get stainless steel.

--Rick Watson

On 8/17/2013 7:16 PM, Rick Sparber wrote:
>
> My work on making flat labels continues.
>
> I tried to fuse toner to a piece of galvanized steel. The first problem I
> encountered was the inferior thermal conduction of the steel versus
> copper.
> I ran the metal with toner on top through the laminator 15 times
> rather than
> the suggested 10. I also had to rub down some of the toner because it
> would
> not stick. Then, after 40 minutes in the freezer, I peeled off the wax
> paper
> and found that the toner was barely adhering.
>
> I wonder if the zinc coating prevented the toner from soaking into the
> pores
> of the steel. Seems reasonable. I will try some bare steel and then
> aluminum
> sheet. Certainly do not want to pay for copper if I can help it.
>
> Rick
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-18 by Rick Sparber

Rick W,

I was using copper plate with great success. But it is so expensive during
this experimental phase.

I think if I can make aluminum work, it would be the lowest cost solution
for flat artwork. I guess this is heresy for this group, but I'm looking at
a "no etch" solution: fuse toner to the metal and then powder coat. The
powder coat only sticks to bare metal. So if this works, I would have a
continuous surface of plastic fused to metal. The black areas would be toner
and the rest would be powder coat. By using white powder coat "paint", I
would get great contrast. Hopefully, I'll have time tomorrow to test this
out.

I'm still interested in using copper pipe. If I can get the toner to fuse to
it, I would have the choice of etching or using powder coating. I do like
the nature look of polished copper.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Rick Watson
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 7:50 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

What about brass? You should able to get various thicknesses. I have a roll
that's about 12" x 24" x 0.005. You should able to put the toner on flat,
then if you're still trying to make a round label, glue or solder to the
brass. You can also get stainless steel.

--Rick Watson

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-18 by Rick Sparber

I thought I had some white powder coat paint but was wrong. I do have some
aluminum "coil" which seems to have been powder coated. One side is tan and
the other white. I laser printed to both the "magic" wax paper from China
and the far more easily found but inferior kitchen parchment paper. The wax
paper worked perfectly every time I have tried it.

The parchment paper worked about 80% of the time. This means that it is best
to print a few copies of the artwork onto the parchment and then pick the
one that has no defects for transfer to the metal.

As for resolution, my capital letters are 0.04" tall and my lower case are
0.03" tall. Just as crisp as out of the laser printer. My finest lines are
around 0.001" wide and look faint. The next size up is about 0.005" wide and
are dark.

As I write this email, it is starting to make sense to me why the toner
holds so solidly to the coil. The toner is essentially powder coat plastic.
The coil is coated with the same stuff. So when they are heated and
compressed, the plastic reflows and fuses.

After the first try I used a 3M pad saturated with dish soap to clean off
the toner. Not so easy to do. After about 2 minutes of hard rubbing, it came
off. The paint on the coil is a lot lighter too. So this supports my theory
that the toner fuses into the powder coat.

As a further test, I taped the wax paper to just the front end of the metal
sample as I ran it through the laminator. This let me peak under the wax
paper and see how much transferred after each pass. All of it transferred
after the first pass!

Now I'm testing with the parchment paper. As expected, the toner does not
release nearly as well as the wax paper so I went all out: taped the artwork
down in all 4 corners, ran 10 passes, and then 15 minutes in the freezer. At
least this time, the toner transferred from the parchment paper to the coil
perfectly.

Time to write this up and an article...

Rick

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-19 by David Pickering

Well done Rick
Sounds Like your findings with parchment paper was what I was finding with old Fax paper , Did the job but not so reliable.
Dave


________________________________
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 18 August 2013, 22:02
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




I thought I had some white powder coat paint but was wrong. I do have some
aluminum "coil" which seems to have been powder coated. One side is tan and
the other white. I laser printed to both the "magic" wax paper from China
and the far more easily found but inferior kitchen parchment paper. The wax
paper worked perfectly every time I have tried it.

The parchment paper worked about 80% of the time. This means that it is best
to print a few copies of the artwork onto the parchment and then pick the
one that has no defects for transfer to the metal.

As for resolution, my capital letters are 0.04" tall and my lower case are
0.03" tall. Just as crisp as out of the laser printer. My finest lines are
around 0.001" wide and look faint. The next size up is about 0.005" wide and
are dark.

As I write this email, it is starting to make sense to me why the toner
holds so solidly to the coil. The toner is essentially powder coat plastic.
The coil is coated with the same stuff. So when they are heated and
compressed, the plastic reflows and fuses.

After the first try I used a 3M pad saturated with dish soap to clean off
the toner. Not so easy to do. After about 2 minutes of hard rubbing, it came
off. The paint on the coil is a lot lighter too. So this supports my theory
that the toner fuses into the powder coat.

As a further test, I taped the wax paper to just the front end of the metal
sample as I ran it through the laminator. This let me peak under the wax
paper and see how much transferred after each pass. All of it transferred
after the first pass!

Now I'm testing with the parchment paper. As expected, the toner does not
release nearly as well as the wax paper so I went all out: taped the artwork
down in all 4 corners, ran 10 passes, and then 15 minutes in the freezer. At
least this time, the toner transferred from the parchment paper to the coil
perfectly.

Time to write this up and an article...

Rick




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-19 by Rick Sparber

Dave,

I don't think I have played in an area nearly as complex as toner transfer. There are so many variables and so many options. Numerous times I have come very close to an answer but one variable was wrong. Each time a new option shows up, like your use of the laminator and freezer, it is a new "wild card" in the deck. Only by going back to my first failed experiments with this new wild card was I able to find the answer I wanted.

Getting 80% success rate is not bad if you can't do better. Time will tell if the toner transfer to powder coated surface procedure is reliable. But so far, it has been great.

As you may have noticed, I'm a real sucker for keeping things simple and using commonly found materials.

Thanks for your help,

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:25 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Well done Rick
Sounds Like your findings with parchment paper was what I was finding with old Fax paper , Did the job but not so reliable.
Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-21 by David Pickering

Hi Rick
Yes I have noticed your determination and you have done well.
I don't to come across as dumb but exactly what powder surface are you referring to? is it a surface you actually put powder on, or does it come with a powder surface.
You mention parchment paper, if thats it, is there another common name for it.
Regards


________________________________
From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 13:26
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique




Dave,

I don't think I have played in an area nearly as complex as toner transfer. There are so many variables and so many options. Numerous times I have come very close to an answer but one variable was wrong. Each time a new option shows up, like your use of the laminator and freezer, it is a new "wild card" in the deck. Only by going back to my first failed experiments with this new wild card was I able to find the answer I wanted.

Getting 80% success rate is not bad if you can't do better. Time will tell if the toner transfer to powder coated surface procedure is reliable. But so far, it has been great.

As you may have noticed, I'm a real sucker for keeping things simple and using commonly found materials.

Thanks for your help,

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:25 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Well done Rick
Sounds Like your findings with parchment paper was what I was finding with old Fax paper , Did the job but not so reliable.
Dave




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-21 by Rick Sparber

Dave,

The metal I fuse the toner to is preprinted with powder coat.

The final process I settled on uses plain paper. Previously I did use parchment paper which is used for baking. It is a tough paper coated with silicone.

Rick

On Aug 20, 2013, at 9:52 PM, David Pickering <satdaveuk@...> wrote:

> Hi Rick
> Yes I have noticed your determination and you have done well.
> I don't to come across as dumb but exactly what powder surface are you referring to? is it a surface you actually put powder on, or does it come with a powder surface.
> You mention parchment paper, if thats it, is there another common name for it.
> Regards
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, 19 August 2013, 13:26
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
> I don't think I have played in an area nearly as complex as toner transfer. There are so many variables and so many options. Numerous times I have come very close to an answer but one variable was wrong. Each time a new option shows up, like your use of the laminator and freezer, it is a new "wild card" in the deck. Only by going back to my first failed experiments with this new wild card was I able to find the answer I wanted.
>
> Getting 80% success rate is not bad if you can't do better. Time will tell if the toner transfer to powder coated surface procedure is reliable. But so far, it has been great.
>
> As you may have noticed, I'm a real sucker for keeping things simple and using commonly found materials.
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Pickering
> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:25 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
> Well done Rick
> Sounds Like your findings with parchment paper was what I was finding with old Fax paper , Did the job but not so reliable.
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-22 by Misc Clark

Hi all - fascinating discussion (I've been lurking for quite awhile)...my
interest is in photoetching shim brass.005 - .010 typically... any
reason(s) this toner transfer won't work for this application? I hope not!
:)
Clark Cone


On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Fernando,
>
> There is no single answer here. Sure, CNC could be used to make boards.
> Most people send their artwork to China and get boards back in the mail.
> Equally valid.
>
> My goal is to find ways to do it with commonly found materials and
> machines. At the present time it looks like I can do it with parchment
> paper, a laser printer, a laminating machine, a kitchen freezer, and a few
> chemicals for etching. That's just part of my hobby and is not necessarily
> the "best" way to do the job. Ultimately, I want to etch a cylinder which
> would be rather tricky with a 3 axis CNC.
>
> Rick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Fernando Cassia
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:39 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
> Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Robin Whittle <rw@...> wrote:
>
> > I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message
> > would be easier to find in the archives.
> >
>
> I've been following all the discussions in this list, just as a lurker,
> and have to wonder if perhaps just buying a CNC machine is the answer? See
>
> http://hackaday.com/2013/08/16/101459/
>
> FC
> --
> During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
> revolutionary act Durante �pocas de Enga�o Universal, decir la verdad se
> convierte en un Acto Revolucionario
> - George Orwell
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-22 by Rick Sparber

Clark,

Which procedure are you talking about? If it is the ability to fuse toner to
powder coat, it should not matter what is under the powder coat as long as
it is not too thick to get through the laminator.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Misc Clark
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:08 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi all - fascinating discussion (I've been lurking for quite awhile)...my
interest is in photoetching shim brass.005 - .010 typically... any
reason(s) this toner transfer won't work for this application? I hope not!
:)
Clark Cone


On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Fernando,
>
> There is no single answer here. Sure, CNC could be used to make boards.
> Most people send their artwork to China and get boards back in the mail.
> Equally valid.
>
> My goal is to find ways to do it with commonly found materials and
> machines. At the present time it looks like I can do it with parchment
> paper, a laser printer, a laminating machine, a kitchen freezer, and a
> few chemicals for etching. That's just part of my hobby and is not
> necessarily the "best" way to do the job. Ultimately, I want to etch a
> cylinder which would be rather tricky with a 3 axis CNC.
>
> Rick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Fernando Cassia
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:39 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards
> - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Robin Whittle <rw@...> wrote:
>
> > I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message
> > would be easier to find in the archives.
> >
>
> I've been following all the discussions in this list, just as a
> lurker, and have to wonder if perhaps just buying a CNC machine is the
> answer? See
>
> http://hackaday.com/2013/08/16/101459/
>
> FC
> --
> During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
> revolutionary act Durante épocas de Engaño Universal, decir la verdad
> se convierte en un Acto Revolucionario
> - George Orwell
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-23 by Misc Clark

Hi Rick - thanks for replying...the process I'm interested in is toner
transfer onto shim brass for single-sided photoetching... I realize you pcb
guys only do a surface etch and undercutting is not an issue...is it?
that's why I ask if this toner transfer method will work for etching...
Clark


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Clark,
>
> Which procedure are you talking about? If it is the ability to fuse toner
> to
> powder coat, it should not matter what is under the powder coat as long as
> it is not too thick to get through the laminator.
>
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Misc Clark
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:08 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
> Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
> Hi all - fascinating discussion (I've been lurking for quite awhile)...my
> interest is in photoetching shim brass.005 - .010 typically... any
> reason(s) this toner transfer won't work for this application? I hope not!
> :)
> Clark Cone
>
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Fernando,
> >
> > There is no single answer here. Sure, CNC could be used to make boards.
> > Most people send their artwork to China and get boards back in the mail.
> > Equally valid.
> >
> > My goal is to find ways to do it with commonly found materials and
> > machines. At the present time it looks like I can do it with parchment
> > paper, a laser printer, a laminating machine, a kitchen freezer, and a
> > few chemicals for etching. That's just part of my hobby and is not
> > necessarily the "best" way to do the job. Ultimately, I want to etch a
> > cylinder which would be rather tricky with a 3 axis CNC.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Fernando Cassia
> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:39 PM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards
> > - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Robin Whittle <rw@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I added some distinctive text to this subject line so your message
> > > would be easier to find in the archives.
> > >
> >
> > I've been following all the discussions in this list, just as a
> > lurker, and have to wonder if perhaps just buying a CNC machine is the
> > answer? See
> >
> > http://hackaday.com/2013/08/16/101459/
> >
> > FC
> > --
> > During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a
> > revolutionary act Durante �pocas de Enga�o Universal, decir la verdad
> > se convierte en un Acto Revolucionario
> > - George Orwell
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-23 by Rick Sparber

Clark,

Actually, I'm not a "pcb guy" ;-)

When I want to make a board, I use pre-coated boards and contact printing.
Nothing special there.

My efforts, recently, have only been focused on making durable labels. I
have etched into brass plate to a depth of about 0.002" and it does look
good. This was done with David Pickering's technique. My problem was
painting the surface to give more contrast. That is what led me to toner
transfer onto powder coat. I get great contrast and a durable product. It
doesn't look nearly as nice as polished brass but is lower cost and higher
contrast.

As an aside, I have also been working on a method for easily radiusing the
corners of these plates. I've come up with a variation on a filing button
that is very low cost and easily make. The trick is to use magnets to clamp
the plate to the tool.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Misc Clark
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 5:29 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

Hi Rick - thanks for replying...the process I'm interested in is toner
transfer onto shim brass for single-sided photoetching... I realize you pcb
guys only do a surface etch and undercutting is not an issue...is it?
that's why I ask if this toner transfer method will work for etching...
Clark

Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-23 by Terry

I don't normally grouse, but how did this topic get from "Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards" to "etching brass plate"? Kind of far off topic for one thing and has nothing to do with DIY PCB's. Please change the topic and/or find a more suitable forum!

Sorry for being cheeky but enough is enough.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
>
> Clark,
>
> Actually, I'm not a "pcb guy" ;-)
>
> When I want to make a board, I use pre-coated boards and contact printing.
> Nothing special there.
>
> My efforts, recently, have only been focused on making durable labels. I
> have etched into brass plate to a depth of about 0.002" and it does look
> good. This was done with David Pickering's technique. My problem was
> painting the surface to give more contrast. That is what led me to toner
> transfer onto powder coat. I get great contrast and a durable product. It
> doesn't look nearly as nice as polished brass but is lower cost and higher
> contrast.
>
> As an aside, I have also been working on a method for easily radiusing the
> corners of these plates. I've come up with a variation on a filing button
> that is very low cost and easily make. The trick is to use magnets to clamp
> the plate to the tool.
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Misc Clark
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 5:29 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
> Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
> Hi Rick - thanks for replying...the process I'm interested in is toner
> transfer onto shim brass for single-sided photoetching... I realize you pcb
> guys only do a surface etch and undercutting is not an issue...is it?
> that's why I ask if this toner transfer method will work for etching...
> Clark
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-23 by Malcolm Parker-Lisberg

Clark

It works fine for chemical machining, just make sure you have a good paint resist coating on the rear. You can also do deep etching for brass nameplates.

Malcolm

I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
The writing is on the wall.
Ha-ktovet al ha-kir

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 8/23/13, Misc Clark <clark.cone4@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 23, 2013, 1:29 PM

Hi Rick - thanks for replying...the
process I'm interested in is toner
transfer onto shim brass for single-sided photoetching... I
realize you pcb
guys only do a surface etch and undercutting is not an
issue...is it?
that's why I ask if this toner transfer method will work for
etching...
Clark


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
wrote:

> **
>
>
> Clark,
>
> Which procedure are you talking about? If it is the
ability to fuse toner
> to
> powder coat, it should not matter what is under the
powder coat as long as
> it is not too thick to get through the laminator.
>
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Misc Clark
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 10:08 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print DIY
Circuit Boards -
> Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
>
> Hi all - fascinating discussion (I've been lurking for
quite awhile)...my
> interest is in photoetching shim brass.005 - .010
typically... any
> reason(s) this toner transfer won't work for this
application? I hope not!
> :)
> Clark Cone
>
> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...>
wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Fernando,
> >
> > There is no single answer here. Sure, CNC could be
used to make boards.
> > Most people send their artwork to China and get
boards back in the mail.
> > Equally valid.
> >
> > My goal is to find ways to do it with commonly
found materials and
> > machines. At the present time it looks like I can
do it with parchment
> > paper, a laser printer, a laminating machine, a
kitchen freezer, and a
> > few chemicals for etching. That's just part of my
hobby and is not
> > necessarily the "best" way to do the job.
Ultimately, I want to etch a
> > cylinder which would be rather tricky with a 3
axis CNC.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Fernando Cassia
> > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:39 PM
> > To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy Fast Laser Print
DIY Circuit Boards
> > - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 11:59 PM, Robin Whittle
<rw@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I added some distinctive text to this subject
line so your message
> > > would be easier to find in the archives.
> > >
> >
> > I've been following all the discussions in this
list, just as a
> > lurker, and have to wonder if perhaps just buying
a CNC machine is the
> > answer? See
> >
> > http://hackaday.com/2013/08/16/101459/
> >
> > FC
> > --
> > During times of Universal Deceit, telling the
truth becomes a
> > revolutionary act Durante épocas de Engaño
Universal, decir la verdad
> > se convierte en un Acto Revolucionario
> > - George Orwell
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo!
Groups Links


Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards - Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

2013-08-23 by Rick Sparber

Terry,

It has drifted rather far.

Sorry about that.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Terry
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 7:31 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy Fast Laser Print DIY Circuit Boards -
Dave's toner-transfer freezing technique

I don't normally grouse, but how did this topic get from "Easy Fast Laser
Print DIY Circuit Boards" to "etching brass plate"? Kind of far off topic
for one thing and has nothing to do with DIY PCB's. Please change the topic
and/or find a more suitable forum!

Sorry for being cheeky but enough is enough.