Homebrew_PCBs

whats a good printer to use to make pcb's.
ron

You will need to be more specific. Toner transfer? Photoresist? Direct resist printing? Each one has different needs.

We have many people here skilled in their own areas of expertise. I'll let them share their own experiences.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mcmurraygrouch57" <hamshack@...> wrote:
>
> whats a good printer to use to make pcb's.
> ron
>

On 18/05/2013 15:48, mcmurraygrouch57 wrote:

> whats a good printer to use to make pcb's.

I get excellent results using an HP 5940 Deskjet printer, with Mega
Electronics Jetstar Premium film.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
G1HSM

Ill just give a blank stare ....

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: hamshack@...
Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 14:48:05 +0000
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] printer


























whats a good printer to use to make pcb's.

ron



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Ill just give a blank stare ....

How is Radio Shack doing these days?

In regards to the OP's question, there's a list of printers (plus paper &
laminators) that'll work for toner transfer in the Files section of the
group. No-one seems to have done similar for photo (inkjet, transparencies
etc).

Tony

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 9:45 PM, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:

> Ill just give a blank stare ....

What a good example, Mike, and in the face of such temptation, too! I was
sorely tempted myself.

73,

Todd
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K7TFC / Medford, Oregon, USA / CN82ni / UTC-8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QRP (CW & SSB) / EmComm / SOTA / Homebrew / Design


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

doing toner transfer. looked in files section and did'nt find anything.
thanks loen i'll see if i can find what you use.
ron

> doing toner transfer. looked in files section and did'nt find anything.
> thanks loen i'll see if i can find what you use.
> ron

Look in the database section for the lists of printers, papers & laminators
that work for toner transfer.

Tony

Leon is not doing toner transfer, he is using an inkjet printer and photo-sensitized boards.

Here is where to look:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/database

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, ron <hamshack@...> wrote:
>
> doing toner transfer. looked in files section and did'nt find anything.
> thanks loen i'll see if i can find what you use.
> ron
>

Hi,

I've been faffing around trying to get the toner transfer method working
now for a year or so (on and off), I've tried about 6 printers now, all of
which have not worked bar a Samsung CLP-660ND that worked very well, but is
now sadly deceased.

I hadn't realised there was a table of printer that had been tried, now
having looked I notice that a lot of Brother printers have been used with
"BT-201" toner, could someone explain what this is? Googling yields one
possibly relevant result:
http://www.tonerrefillsnow.com/brother/201.html

Many thanks,
--
Will


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Or you could remember what it is like when you were just learning something. Sometimes you don't even know what things are called or what options are available, so searching for them or even asking about them is difficult.

This group is for newbies and experienced alike. If you are not here to help and be helped, why are you here?

Steve Greenfield AE7HD
Moderator Homebrew_PCBs

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Todd F. Carney / K7TFC" <k7tfc@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 9:45 PM, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:
>
> > Ill just give a blank stare ....
>
>
> What a good example, Mike, and in the face of such temptation, too! I was
> sorely tempted myself.
>
> 73,
>
> Todd
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> K7TFC / Medford, Oregon, USA / CN82ni / UTC-8
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> QRP (CW & SSB) / EmComm / SOTA / Homebrew / Design
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I managed to find lots of information ... with google before joining here ...



To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: alienrelics@...
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 04:08:47 +0000
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


























Or you could remember what it is like when you were just learning something. Sometimes you don't even know what things are called or what options are available, so searching for them or even asking about them is difficult.



This group is for newbies and experienced alike. If you are not here to help and be helped, why are you here?



Steve Greenfield AE7HD

Moderator Homebrew_PCBs

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Todd F. Carney / K7TFC" <k7tfc@...> wrote:

>

>

> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 9:45 PM, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:

>

> > Ill just give a blank stare ....

>

>

> What a good example, Mike, and in the face of such temptation, too! I was

> sorely tempted myself.

>

> 73,

>

> Todd

> ----------------------------------------------------------

> K7TFC / Medford, Oregon, USA / CN82ni / UTC-8

> ----------------------------------------------------------

> QRP (CW & SSB) / EmComm / SOTA / Homebrew / Design

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So are you here to learn and share knowledge, or just to make other people feel bad for not living up to your standards?

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:
>
> I managed to find lots of information ... with google before joining here ...
>
>
>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> From: alienrelics@...
> Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 04:08:47 +0000
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>
> Or you could remember what it is like when you were just learning something. Sometimes you don't even know what things are called or what options are available, so searching for them or even asking about them is difficult.
>
>
>
> This group is for newbies and experienced alike. If you are not here to help and be helped, why are you here?
>
>
>
> Steve Greenfield AE7HD
>
> Moderator Homebrew_PCBs
>
> >
>
> > On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 9:45 PM, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Ill just give a blank stare ....
>
> >
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, MIKE DURKIN <Patriot121@...> wrote:

>
> Ill just give a blank stare ....
>

I'm sure you feel much better about yourself now you've made fun of someone else.

I know I feel much better about myself now that I've made fun of you.

Oh... no... now that I check, I actually don't. I feel hopeless and depressed that humans are such amazing dicks to each other.

I'm sorry Mike, I'm sure you are a good person at heart, and I know that if you just tried a bit, you could offer something positive to the group instead of acting like a bully. "Patriots" do that.

--
James Newton.

On 05/21/2013 06:57 AM, MIKE DURKIN wrote:

> I managed to find lots of information ... with google before joining here ...
>
>

Sooooo...
WHY did you join here?

--
Best Regards,
Q Systems
Zoran A. Šćepanović
Skype: zoran.a.scepanovic
+381 63 609-993

-..-
Save trees, eat more beavers. (one darkhaired for you Mike :-))

Hmmm...

I'm a (relatively) new member here. I've been lurking. This is the first
urination competition I've seen in this group but, human nature being what
it is, I suppose they are inevitable. When I was in the first grade we used
to see who could stand farthest back from the urinal. I could do more than
six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't want to know. A
sad story.

Anyway, the topic: This is in fact the reason I joined. I make double sided
PCBs with plated-thru holes, but have trouble going beyond 2 or 3 inches on
a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies. I
used negative file photoresist which works quite well, bit printing
negatives exacerbates the distortion problem because of the large areas of
black.

The contrast of the laser printer (I have a Brother MFC8500) is fairly poor
so I have to stack up 3 prints to make it dark enough. Last time I tried
inkjet (HP 932C) the ink wouldn't stick well enough to the plastic, so large
dark areas had lots of gaps (too much surface tension in the ink.) Recently
I picked up a used Epson Workforce 630 for my wife [only $25 :-) but $70 for
ink :-( ] and decided to try printing a mask on that. I was thrilled! It
looked perfect, with excellent contrast. But the test was a positive image,
no flood fill.

Next board I made I printed on the Epson, but found the ink smearing and
bleeding wherever there were large dark areas, and the fine traces (~12mil)
tending to close up. Back to the laser. I know I could use flood fill to
reduce the black areas on negatives, but that is not foolproof because the
flood fill often cannot reach some spaces.

I recently picked up some Oracal to experiment with, but even with that I
doubt TT will work for me because of inadequate contrast (too many pinholes
in the black areas) though I am in the process of making a temperature
controller for my Royal PL2112 laminator. I looked at replacing the
thermostats but decided I'd rather have continuous control from hand-warmer
to melt-down. Who knew a simple 1N4148 made such a swell temp. sensor? I
have actually tried multiple applications of toner to a PCB. Too hard to
align. But there are other interesting applications for TT.

Anyway, I would be very interested in learning which printers produce the
best contrast with little or no distortion. I can't afford to keep buying
inkjet and/or laser printers till I get it right, and I don't want to spend
a fortune on equipment or consumables. If I could just throw money at the
problem I wouldn't bother with DIY. I have a pretty good supply of NuKote
laser transparencies and would prefer to continue using those. They seem to
work pretty well with the Epson inkjet, though I'd grant there may be
something that works better. If so, I'd like to know why. But again, I don't
want to accumulate a stack of useless transparencies searching for The One
That Works.

OT; FWIW, I've found that conductive ink made from Silver Acetate is very
effective as a hole wall activator. After drying and annealing at ~92C it
forms a layer of metallic silver with a very strong mechanical bond to the
hole walls, and as such is impervious to solvents. It is more expensive than
conventional DIY activators, and is quite toxic, but the shelf life is
virtually indefinite, and I can make it in small batches. I thought about
selling it in small vials but the toxicity argues against that. Some putz
would probably sue me because his kid tried to snort it or something.
Anyway, FWIW.
--
Phil M.

Correction: "... negative FILM photoresist ..."

No matter how many times you proof read ... Awww Crap!!!

--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil@Yahoo" <yahoo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: printer


> Hmmm...
>
> I'm a (relatively) new member here. I've been lurking. This is the first
> urination competition I've seen in this group but, human nature being what
> it is, I suppose they are inevitable. When I was in the first grade we
> used to see who could stand farthest back from the urinal. I could do more
> than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't want to
> know. A sad story.
>
> Anyway, the topic: This is in fact the reason I joined. I make double
> sided PCBs with plated-thru holes, but have trouble going beyond 2 or 3
> inches on a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser
> transparencies. I used negative file photoresist which works quite well,
> bit printing negatives exacerbates the distortion problem because of the
> large areas of black.
>
> The contrast of the laser printer (I have a Brother MFC8500) is fairly
> poor so I have to stack up 3 prints to make it dark enough. Last time I
> tried inkjet (HP 932C) the ink wouldn't stick well enough to the plastic,
> so large dark areas had lots of gaps (too much surface tension in the
> ink.) Recently I picked up a used Epson Workforce 630 for my wife [only
> $25 :-) but $70 for ink :-( ] and decided to try printing a mask on that.
> I was thrilled! It looked perfect, with excellent contrast. But the test
> was a positive image, no flood fill.
>
> Next board I made I printed on the Epson, but found the ink smearing and
> bleeding wherever there were large dark areas, and the fine traces
> (~12mil) tending to close up. Back to the laser. I know I could use flood
> fill to reduce the black areas on negatives, but that is not foolproof
> because the flood fill often cannot reach some spaces.
>
> I recently picked up some Oracal to experiment with, but even with that I
> doubt TT will work for me because of inadequate contrast (too many
> pinholes in the black areas) though I am in the process of making a
> temperature controller for my Royal PL2112 laminator. I looked at
> replacing the thermostats but decided I'd rather have continuous control
> from hand-warmer to melt-down. Who knew a simple 1N4148 made such a swell
> temp. sensor? I have actually tried multiple applications of toner to a
> PCB. Too hard to align. But there are other interesting applications for
> TT.
>
> Anyway, I would be very interested in learning which printers produce the
> best contrast with little or no distortion. I can't afford to keep buying
> inkjet and/or laser printers till I get it right, and I don't want to
> spend a fortune on equipment or consumables. If I could just throw money
> at the problem I wouldn't bother with DIY. I have a pretty good supply of
> NuKote laser transparencies and would prefer to continue using those. They
> seem to work pretty well with the Epson inkjet, though I'd grant there may
> be something that works better. If so, I'd like to know why. But again, I
> don't want to accumulate a stack of useless transparencies searching for
> The One That Works.
>
> OT; FWIW, I've found that conductive ink made from Silver Acetate is very
> effective as a hole wall activator. After drying and annealing at ~92C it
> forms a layer of metallic silver with a very strong mechanical bond to the
> hole walls, and as such is impervious to solvents. It is more expensive
> than conventional DIY activators, and is quite toxic, but the shelf life
> is virtually indefinite, and I can make it in small batches. I thought
> about selling it in small vials but the toxicity argues against that. Some
> putz would probably sue me because his kid tried to snort it or something.
> Anyway, FWIW.
> --
> Phil M.

A year ago or so I started to test multiple printers, transparencies and ink
settings but I got too busy to finish and I am still too busy to continue
right now. I measured opacity vs. wave length to eventually select the best
combination for creating artwork for photo resist development.

Test artwork:

http://www.vinland.com/USAF-1951.html

Scroll down to the bottom for the PCB test pattern



With that as a background, I recently got a new printer and just printed my
standard test print without any tweaking and it looks very promising. It is
a photo printer and it has three black-gray-light gray inks besides all the
colors.. I have not done any measurements or other tests so no promises.
It also looks like it can print 5 mil lines/spaces.

Printer: Canon Pixma Pro-100.

Regular price $500, Amazon sells it for $400 with a rebate of $200 and an
extra $50 if one signs up for their credit card. So at the end I paid $150,
got free second day shipping.



As for Phil's comments on lack of laser transparency accuracy would suggest
to use an inkjet instead. Going through the laser fuser's high temperature
can easily distort the artwork.



Also it is critical to get sufficient opacity that a single layer artwork
can be used.

Bertho





From: Phil@Yahoo Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 15:31



Hmmm...

I'm a (relatively) new member here. I've been lurking. This is the first
urination competition I've seen in this group but, human nature being what
it is, I suppose they are inevitable. When I was in the first grade we used
to see who could stand farthest back from the urinal. I could do more than
six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't want to know. A
sad story.

Anyway, the topic: This is in fact the reason I joined. I make double sided
PCBs with plated-thru holes, but have trouble going beyond 2 or 3 inches on
a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies. I
used negative file photoresist which works quite well, bit printing
negatives exacerbates the distortion problem because of the large areas of
black.

The contrast of the laser printer (I have a Brother MFC8500) is fairly poor
so I have to stack up 3 prints to make it dark enough. Last time I tried
inkjet (HP 932C) the ink wouldn't stick well enough to the plastic, so large

dark areas had lots of gaps (too much surface tension in the ink.) Recently
I picked up a used Epson Workforce 630 for my wife [only $25 :-) but $70 for

ink :-( ] and decided to try printing a mask on that. I was thrilled! It
looked perfect, with excellent contrast. But the test was a positive image,
no flood fill.

Next board I made I printed on the Epson, but found the ink smearing and
bleeding wherever there were large dark areas, and the fine traces (~12mil)
tending to close up. Back to the laser. I know I could use flood fill to
reduce the black areas on negatives, but that is not foolproof because the
flood fill often cannot reach some spaces.

I recently picked up some Oracal to experiment with, but even with that I
doubt TT will work for me because of inadequate contrast (too many pinholes
in the black areas) though I am in the process of making a temperature
controller for my Royal PL2112 laminator. I looked at replacing the
thermostats but decided I'd rather have continuous control from hand-warmer
to melt-down. Who knew a simple 1N4148 made such a swell temp. sensor? I
have actually tried multiple applications of toner to a PCB. Too hard to
align. But there are other interesting applications for TT.

Anyway, I would be very interested in learning which printers produce the
best contrast with little or no distortion. I can't afford to keep buying
inkjet and/or laser printers till I get it right, and I don't want to spend
a fortune on equipment or consumables. If I could just throw money at the
problem I wouldn't bother with DIY. I have a pretty good supply of NuKote
laser transparencies and would prefer to continue using those. They seem to
work pretty well with the Epson inkjet, though I'd grant there may be
something that works better. If so, I'd like to know why. But again, I don't

want to accumulate a stack of useless transparencies searching for The One
That Works.

OT; FWIW, I've found that conductive ink made from Silver Acetate is very
effective as a hole wall activator. After drying and annealing at ~92C it
forms a layer of metallic silver with a very strong mechanical bond to the
hole walls, and as such is impervious to solvents. It is more expensive than

conventional DIY activators, and is quite toxic, but the shelf life is
virtually indefinite, and I can make it in small batches. I thought about
selling it in small vials but the toxicity argues against that. Some putz
would probably sue me because his kid tried to snort it or something.
Anyway, FWIW.
--
Phil M.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow, great deal. $300 rebate if you buy the printer and $10 worth of paper!

Aaron Turner
http://synfin.net/ Twitter: @synfinatic
https://github.com/synfinatic/tcpreplay - Pcap editing and replay tools for
Unix & Windows
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin
"carpe diem quam minimum credula postero"

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Boman33 <boman33@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> A year ago or so I started to test multiple printers, transparencies and
> ink
> settings but I got too busy to finish and I am still too busy to continue
> right now. I measured opacity vs. wave length to eventually select the best
> combination for creating artwork for photo resist development.
>
> Test artwork:
>
> http://www.vinland.com/USAF-1951.html
>
> Scroll down to the bottom for the PCB test pattern
>
> With that as a background, I recently got a new printer and just printed my
> standard test print without any tweaking and it looks very promising. It is
> a photo printer and it has three black-gray-light gray inks besides all the
> colors.. I have not done any measurements or other tests so no promises.
> It also looks like it can print 5 mil lines/spaces.
>
> Printer: Canon Pixma Pro-100.
>
> Regular price $500, Amazon sells it for $400 with a rebate of $200 and an
> extra $50 if one signs up for their credit card. So at the end I paid $150,
> got free second day shipping.
>
> As for Phil's comments on lack of laser transparency accuracy would suggest
> to use an inkjet instead. Going through the laser fuser's high temperature
> can easily distort the artwork.
>
> Also it is critical to get sufficient opacity that a single layer artwork
> can be used.
>
> Bertho
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...> wrote:

>
> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't want to know.

Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)

> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes

I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
how you get registration between the two sides right.

> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.

Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
printing should go against the board.

You can read about my method with drafting paper here:

http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html

All the best!

Mitch.

-I use a positive photo-resist. Pre-coated PC boards from GC Electronics.
Sometimes I use an ALPS printer to make clear film positive... good to prototype with. To make production boards boards over and over I take the art file to a printer service that has a image setter onto clear film.

Don Matthys
dba Don's Light and Magic
www.dlmparts.com
don@...

John Adams wrote that the Fourth of July "...ought to be celebrated by pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations from one end of this continent to the other..."

Hi,

We used drafting film for direct imaging UV sensitive PCB's with good results. It gave the best results for artwork plotted done by our old HP pen plotters.
Unfortunately the pens were too thick for today's boards that require 8mil or 5mil track widths to suit modern semiconductors and connectors :-(
It also took a LONG time to plot out boards with large filled areas (especially with thin pens, and it's probably one of the reasons why cross-hatch fills were invented :-)

In case anyone is wondering, drafting film is generally a polymer film (not a paper, so it does melt!) that has silica powder added to the plastic mix (double side matt finish), or has silica powder pressed into one side (single matt). The idea is to print on the matt side where the silica absorbs the ink, and as others suggest, is the side that has to be in contact with the PCB resist during exposure.
BTW, silica in drafting film is really good at blunting scissors!

More recently I experimented with old Tektronix/Xerox Phaser printers (colour wax printers) directly onto adhesive backed copper foil.
This worked quite well, although the adhesive starts to soften if you leave it in hot etchant too long.
I then stick an adhesive polymer film over the top to hold the copper in place, and remove the foil's own backing to expose the copper's adhesive.
Then I stick it all down on a blank board, and finally peel the top film off (being careful to leave the copper behind on the substrate).
The process need refinement, but has produced a couple of prototype flex circuits to date. Unfortunately the foil's adhesive isn't designed for high temperatures so solder quickly! Some future experimentation with epoxy glues is in order.

Cheers,
Mark
Bionics Institute
Melbourne, Australia




-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 11:52 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't want to know.

Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)

> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes

I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
how you get registration between the two sides right.

> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.

Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
printing should go against the board.

You can read about my method with drafting paper here:

http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html

All the best!

Mitch.


------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

I haven't started to document the process yet because I'm still
experimenting. I got my initial ideas and encouragement watching some
youtube videos bye by a guy with a channel named "pathetic-computing." You
can find out about conductive ink at http://jordanbunker.com/archives/41

Because the holes are drilled and plated before etching, and I use negative
dry film photoresist, the masks are clear where the pads will be, so you can
see the holes to align the mask on either side. Before applying the film I
fill the holes with a mixture of drywall plaster and sugar, let it dry, and
sand the board lightly to remove any plaster from the surface. This provides
a flat surface for the resist film, and is easy to remove with water and a
water-pik (dental cleaner) after etching. The sugar resists the etchant in
case any does come into contact, which otherwise would solidify the plaster
making it difficult to remove.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mitch Davis" <mjd@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't
>> want to know.
>
> Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
> and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)
>
>> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes
>
> I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
> page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
> how you get registration between the two sides right.
>
>> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.
>
> Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
> transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
> pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
> printing should go against the board.
>
> You can read about my method with drafting paper here:
>
> http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
>
> All the best!
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Can you be specific? I've looked at drafting paper and tracing paper at
Office Max etc and found them to be either too thin or ridiculously
expensive. I've tried printing on parchment paper but the toner comes off if
you even touch it. I've considered making glass masks by multiple layers of
toner transfer to the glass to get the contrast. I'm thinking the Oracal
might work for that. Sand-blasting one side of the glass should provide
enough "tooth" to allow the toner to stick. Not sure if the glass would
stand the thermal shocks. Tempered glass maybe. If someone has already
followed that road to failure, please advise.

All I want is something quick, easy and cheap.

Well, also I'd like less to do, more time to do it, and more money for not
getting it done.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Harrison" <jmh@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


> Hi,
>
> We used drafting film for direct imaging UV sensitive PCB's with good
> results. It gave the best results for artwork plotted done by our old HP
> pen plotters.
> Unfortunately the pens were too thick for today's boards that require 8mil
> or 5mil track widths to suit modern semiconductors and connectors :-(
> It also took a LONG time to plot out boards with large filled areas
> (especially with thin pens, and it's probably one of the reasons why
> cross-hatch fills were invented :-)
>
> In case anyone is wondering, drafting film is generally a polymer film
> (not a paper, so it does melt!) that has silica powder added to the
> plastic mix (double side matt finish), or has silica powder pressed into
> one side (single matt). The idea is to print on the matt side where the
> silica absorbs the ink, and as others suggest, is the side that has to be
> in contact with the PCB resist during exposure.
> BTW, silica in drafting film is really good at blunting scissors!
>
> More recently I experimented with old Tektronix/Xerox Phaser printers
> (colour wax printers) directly onto adhesive backed copper foil.
> This worked quite well, although the adhesive starts to soften if you
> leave it in hot etchant too long.
> I then stick an adhesive polymer film over the top to hold the copper in
> place, and remove the foil's own backing to expose the copper's adhesive.
> Then I stick it all down on a blank board, and finally peel the top film
> off (being careful to leave the copper behind on the substrate).
> The process need refinement, but has produced a couple of prototype flex
> circuits to date. Unfortunately the foil's adhesive isn't designed for
> high temperatures so solder quickly! Some future experimentation with
> epoxy glues is in order.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
> Bionics Institute
> Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 11:52 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't
>> want to know.
>
> Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
> and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)
>
>> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes
>
> I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
> page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
> how you get registration between the two sides right.
>
>> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.
>
> Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
> transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
> pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
> printing should go against the board.
>
> You can read about my method with drafting paper here:
>
> http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
>
> All the best!
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

you can get frosted tempered glass?
I thought messing with the surface of tempered glass causes it to shatter.







________________________________
From: "Phil@Yahoo" <yahoo@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer




Can you be specific? I've looked at drafting paper and tracing paper at
Office Max etc and found them to be either too thin or ridiculously
expensive. I've tried printing on parchment paper but the toner comes off if
you even touch it. I've considered making glass masks by multiple layers of
toner transfer to the glass to get the contrast. I'm thinking the Oracal
might work for that. Sand-blasting one side of the glass should provide
enough "tooth" to allow the toner to stick. Not sure if the glass would
stand the thermal shocks. Tempered glass maybe. If someone has already
followed that road to failure, please advise.

All I want is something quick, easy and cheap.

Well, also I'd like less to do, more time to do it, and more money for not
getting it done.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Harrison" <jmh@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer

> Hi,
>
> We used drafting film for direct imaging UV sensitive PCB's with good
> results. It gave the best results for artwork plotted done by our old HP
> pen plotters.
> Unfortunately the pens were too thick for today's boards that require 8mil
> or 5mil track widths to suit modern semiconductors and connectors :-(
> It also took a LONG time to plot out boards with large filled areas
> (especially with thin pens, and it's probably one of the reasons why
> cross-hatch fills were invented :-)
>
> In case anyone is wondering, drafting film is generally a polymer film
> (not a paper, so it does melt!) that has silica powder added to the
> plastic mix (double side matt finish), or has silica powder pressed into
> one side (single matt). The idea is to print on the matt side where the
> silica absorbs the ink, and as others suggest, is the side that has to be
> in contact with the PCB resist during exposure.
> BTW, silica in drafting film is really good at blunting scissors!
>
> More recently I experimented with old Tektronix/Xerox Phaser printers
> (colour wax printers) directly onto adhesive backed copper foil.
> This worked quite well, although the adhesive starts to soften if you
> leave it in hot etchant too long.
> I then stick an adhesive polymer film over the top to hold the copper in
> place, and remove the foil's own backing to expose the copper's adhesive.
> Then I stick it all down on a blank board, and finally peel the top film
> off (being careful to leave the copper behind on the substrate).
> The process need refinement, but has produced a couple of prototype flex
> circuits to date. Unfortunately the foil's adhesive isn't designed for
> high temperatures so solder quickly! Some future experimentation with
> epoxy glues is in order.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
> Bionics Institute
> Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 11:52 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't
>> want to know.
>
> Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
> and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)
>
>> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes
>
> I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
> page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
> how you get registration between the two sides right.
>
>> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.
>
> Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
> transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
> pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
> printing should go against the board.
>
> You can read about my method with drafting paper here:
>
> http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
>
> All the best!
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Phil wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Before applying the film I fill the holes
> with a mixture of drywall plaster and sugar,
> let it dry, and sand the board lightly to
> remove any plaster from the surface. This
> provides a flat surface for the resist film,
> and is easy to remove with water and a
> water-pik (dental cleaner) after etching.
> The sugar resists the etchant in case any
> does come into contact, which otherwise
> would solidify the plaster making it
> difficult to remove.

Have you had problems with tenting? How thick
is negative active film you are using?

Thicker film and a good contrast artwork should
make a tent that is plenty strong enough to
survive even vigorous hand developing/etching.

> Phil wrote:
>
> <SNIP lots about lasers and tranny film>

If using a laser then vellum/drafting-film.
Lasers a transperency material don't work
well together.

Lasers do excellent black for thin lines but
unless you have a new-car-priced laser then
large black areas will be faded.

Any cheap inkjet will give better results
than any cheap laser for large black areas.
The inkjet will also have better dimensionl
accuracy / less-distortion.

Now I have lost access to the fantastic
Tektronix laser I had at work I have switched
to using a random canon inkjet on gelatine
coated inkjet transparencies.

Gives almost as good a result with $100 worth
of printer than a $30K+ printer did. Only
downside is that the transparencies cost $2
a sheet rather than $0.30 a sheet. So I am
frugal with them and do a test print on paper
and then cut out a small rectangle of tranny
to tape over the test print.

I haven't measured the film, but I'd guess about 1 or 2 mils thick. Without
filling the holes the film bows in or out depending of board temperature,
which weakens the film at the edges of the holes. Some times it tears a
little as a result, letting in the etchant. Filling the holes solves that
problem. I use the film I have. After developing I re-expose it, which
hardens the film a great deal. Any flexing at all is a Bad Thing.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "cunningfellow" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:19 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


>> Phil wrote:
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> Before applying the film I fill the holes
>> with a mixture of drywall plaster and sugar,
>> let it dry, and sand the board lightly to
>> remove any plaster from the surface. This
>> provides a flat surface for the resist film,
>> and is easy to remove with water and a
>> water-pik (dental cleaner) after etching.
>> The sugar resists the etchant in case any
>> does come into contact, which otherwise
>> would solidify the plaster making it
>> difficult to remove.
>
> Have you had problems with tenting? How thick
> is negative active film you are using?
>
> Thicker film and a good contrast artwork should
> make a tent that is plenty strong enough to
> survive even vigorous hand developing/etching.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Exactly what I have found. Do you have a brand name for the gel-coat
transparency film?
Getting it right first time every time would ease a lot of the pain at $2
per sheet. I hate to dump the transparency sheets I already have but if you
know something that Really Works with ink jet, I'll try it. Laser toner
isn't exactly free, either.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "cunningfellow" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:31 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


>
>
>> Phil wrote:
>>
>> <SNIP lots about lasers and tranny film>
>
> If using a laser then vellum/drafting-film.
> Lasers a transperency material don't work
> well together.
>
> Lasers do excellent black for thin lines but
> unless you have a new-car-priced laser then
> large black areas will be faded.
>
> Any cheap inkjet will give better results
> than any cheap laser for large black areas.
> The inkjet will also have better dimensionl
> accuracy / less-distortion.
>
> Now I have lost access to the fantastic
> Tektronix laser I had at work I have switched
> to using a random canon inkjet on gelatine
> coated inkjet transparencies.
>
> Gives almost as good a result with $100 worth
> of printer than a $30K+ printer did. Only
> downside is that the transparencies cost $2
> a sheet rather than $0.30 a sheet. So I am
> frugal with them and do a test print on paper
> and then cut out a small rectangle of tranny
> to tape over the test print.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

On 23/05/13 06:31, cunningfellow wrote:

>
>
>> Phil wrote:
>>
>> <SNIP lots about lasers and tranny film>
>
> If using a laser then vellum/drafting-film.
> Lasers a transperency material don't work
> well together.
>
> Lasers do excellent black for thin lines but
> unless you have a new-car-priced laser then
> large black areas will be faded.
>
> Any cheap inkjet will give better results
> than any cheap laser for large black areas.
> The inkjet will also have better dimensionl
> accuracy / less-distortion.
>
> Now I have lost access to the fantastic
> Tektronix laser I had at work I have switched
> to using a random canon inkjet on gelatine
> coated inkjet transparencies.
>
> Gives almost as good a result with $100 worth
> of printer than a $30K+ printer did. Only
> downside is that the transparencies cost $2
> a sheet rather than $0.30 a sheet. So I am
> frugal with them and do a test print on paper
> and then cut out a small rectangle of tranny
> to tape over the test print.

What model number is the Canon? Is it using the standard genuine ink?

Some inks won't soak into the gelatine film.

Phil,
I have been a DIY board maker for years, though lately I have been lazy and ordered my boards as the price as really come down. Anyway, I have always wanted to do PTH boards.

I have been tracking the DIY PTH technology for some time now. This is a new one and I may have to give it a try. I had been looking at Tollen's reagent (used to silver mirrors) but did not have any success. This silver acetate process is a variation on the Tollens.

The processes I have looked at so far are the the multi step "Palladium activation" (too costly and complex) the "black hole" (has potential but messy), the "Copper Hypophosphite activation" (looks very nice but has chemical sourcing issues with the DEA). So this may be the answer.

Please keep posting the results of your PTH processing.

Craig

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil@..." <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> I haven't started to document the process yet because I'm still
> experimenting. I got my initial ideas and encouragement watching some
> youtube videos bye by a guy with a channel named "pathetic-computing." You
> can find out about conductive ink at http://jordanbunker.com/archives/41
>
> Because the holes are drilled and plated before etching, and I use negative
> dry film photoresist, the masks are clear where the pads will be, so you can
> see the holes to align the mask on either side. Before applying the film I
> fill the holes with a mixture of drywall plaster and sugar, let it dry, and
> sand the board lightly to remove any plaster from the surface. This provides
> a flat surface for the resist film, and is easy to remove with water and a
> water-pik (dental cleaner) after etching. The sugar resists the etchant in
> case any does come into contact, which otherwise would solidify the plaster
> making it difficult to remove.
> --
> Phil M.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mitch Davis" <mjd@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>
>
> > On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't
> >> want to know.
> >
> > Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
> > and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)
> >
> >> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes
> >
> > I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
> > page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
> > how you get registration between the two sides right.
> >
> >> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.
> >
> > Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
> > transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
> > pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
> > printing should go against the board.
> >
> > You can read about my method with drafting paper here:
> >
> > http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
> >
> > All the best!
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

I made my first DIY PCB in 1968 when I was 15. I etched with Ferric
Chloride. The more things change, the more they stay the same :-)
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "designer_craig" <cs6061@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:41 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


> Phil,
> I have been a DIY board maker for years, though lately I have been lazy
> and ordered my boards as the price as really come down. Anyway, I have
> always wanted to do PTH boards.
>
> I have been tracking the DIY PTH technology for some time now. This is a
> new one and I may have to give it a try. I had been looking at Tollen's
> reagent (used to silver mirrors) but did not have any success. This silver
> acetate process is a variation on the Tollens.
>
> The processes I have looked at so far are the the multi step "Palladium
> activation" (too costly and complex) the "black hole" (has potential but
> messy), the "Copper Hypophosphite activation" (looks very nice but has
> chemical sourcing issues with the DEA). So this may be the answer.
>
> Please keep posting the results of your PTH processing.
>
> Craig
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil@..." <yahoo@...> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't started to document the process yet because I'm still
>> experimenting. I got my initial ideas and encouragement watching some
>> youtube videos bye by a guy with a channel named "pathetic-computing."
>> You
>> can find out about conductive ink at http://jordanbunker.com/archives/41
>>
>> Because the holes are drilled and plated before etching, and I use
>> negative
>> dry film photoresist, the masks are clear where the pads will be, so you
>> can
>> see the holes to align the mask on either side. Before applying the film
>> I
>> fill the holes with a mixture of drywall plaster and sugar, let it dry,
>> and
>> sand the board lightly to remove any plaster from the surface. This
>> provides
>> a flat surface for the resist film, and is easy to remove with water and
>> a
>> water-pik (dental cleaner) after etching. The sugar resists the etchant
>> in
>> case any does come into contact, which otherwise would solidify the
>> plaster
>> making it difficult to remove.
>> --
>> Phil M.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mitch Davis" <mjd@...>
>> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>>
>>
>> > On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't
>> >> want to know.
>> >
>> > Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
>> > and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)
>> >
>> >> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes
>> >
>> > I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
>> > page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
>> > how you get registration between the two sides right.
>> >
>> >> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser
>> >> transparencies.
>> >
>> > Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
>> > transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
>> > pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
>> > printing should go against the board.
>> >
>> > You can read about my method with drafting paper here:
>> >
>> >
>> > http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
>> >
>> > All the best!
>> >
>> > Mitch.
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
>> > Photos:
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Phil,

I had to order drafting film from a specialty drafting supplier and have it specially cut into A3 and A4 sheets for the plotters. It normally comes on rolls or large plan sizes.

This was 10-20 years ago - so I guess most draftsmen have now moved on since to CAD and use A0 paper printers instead of drafting film and may be hard to get. (Do draftsmen still exist ??? These days the engineers here have to do all our own drafting, typing, photocopying, making coffee......).

The supplier would only cut drafting film just before they had their guillotine re-sharped as apparently it really ruined the blades.
Due to its abrasiveness I had to use ink pens with ceramic or jewel tips, and I suspect it would accelerate the wear on any printer you run it through too often.

I vaguely recall trying toner transfer from this film and it bubbled up and delaminated if the iron was too hot. But then I've never had much success with transfers....great for photo imaging though.

Cheers,
Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil@Yahoo
Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 05:21 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer

Can you be specific? I've looked at drafting paper and tracing paper at
Office Max etc and found them to be either too thin or ridiculously
expensive. I've tried printing on parchment paper but the toner comes off if
you even touch it. I've considered making glass masks by multiple layers of
toner transfer to the glass to get the contrast. I'm thinking the Oracal
might work for that. Sand-blasting one side of the glass should provide
enough "tooth" to allow the toner to stick. Not sure if the glass would
stand the thermal shocks. Tempered glass maybe. If someone has already
followed that road to failure, please advise.

All I want is something quick, easy and cheap.

Well, also I'd like less to do, more time to do it, and more money for not
getting it done.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Harrison" <jmh@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


> Hi,
>
> We used drafting film for direct imaging UV sensitive PCB's with good
> results. It gave the best results for artwork plotted done by our old HP
> pen plotters.
> Unfortunately the pens were too thick for today's boards that require 8mil
> or 5mil track widths to suit modern semiconductors and connectors :-(
> It also took a LONG time to plot out boards with large filled areas
> (especially with thin pens, and it's probably one of the reasons why
> cross-hatch fills were invented :-)
>
> In case anyone is wondering, drafting film is generally a polymer film
> (not a paper, so it does melt!) that has silica powder added to the
> plastic mix (double side matt finish), or has silica powder pressed into
> one side (single matt). The idea is to print on the matt side where the
> silica absorbs the ink, and as others suggest, is the side that has to be
> in contact with the PCB resist during exposure.
> BTW, silica in drafting film is really good at blunting scissors!
>
> More recently I experimented with old Tektronix/Xerox Phaser printers
> (colour wax printers) directly onto adhesive backed copper foil.
> This worked quite well, although the adhesive starts to soften if you
> leave it in hot etchant too long.
> I then stick an adhesive polymer film over the top to hold the copper in
> place, and remove the foil's own backing to expose the copper's adhesive.
> Then I stick it all down on a blank board, and finally peel the top film
> off (being careful to leave the copper behind on the substrate).
> The process need refinement, but has produced a couple of prototype flex
> circuits to date. Unfortunately the foil's adhesive isn't designed for
> high temperatures so solder quickly! Some future experimentation with
> epoxy glues is in order.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
> Bionics Institute
> Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 11:52 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't
>> want to know.
>
> Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
> and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)
>
>> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes
>
> I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
> page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
> how you get registration between the two sides right.
>
>> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.
>
> Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
> transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
> pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
> printing should go against the board.
>
> You can read about my method with drafting paper here:
>
> http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
>
> All the best!
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Not so. I've sand-blasted tempered glass and it's fine. You just can't
score/break it like conventional glass. If you break it at all it shatters.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk McLoren" <kirkmcloren@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer




you can get frosted tempered glass?
I thought messing with the surface of tempered glass causes it to shatter.







________________________________
From: "Phil@Yahoo" <yahoo@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer




Can you be specific? I've looked at drafting paper and tracing paper at
Office Max etc and found them to be either too thin or ridiculously
expensive. I've tried printing on parchment paper but the toner comes off if
you even touch it. I've considered making glass masks by multiple layers of
toner transfer to the glass to get the contrast. I'm thinking the Oracal
might work for that. Sand-blasting one side of the glass should provide
enough "tooth" to allow the toner to stick. Not sure if the glass would
stand the thermal shocks. Tempered glass maybe. If someone has already
followed that road to failure, please advise.

All I want is something quick, easy and cheap.

Well, also I'd like less to do, more time to do it, and more money for not
getting it done.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Harrison" <jmh@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer

> Hi,
>
> We used drafting film for direct imaging UV sensitive PCB's with good
> results. It gave the best results for artwork plotted done by our old HP
> pen plotters.
> Unfortunately the pens were too thick for today's boards that require 8mil
> or 5mil track widths to suit modern semiconductors and connectors :-(
> It also took a LONG time to plot out boards with large filled areas
> (especially with thin pens, and it's probably one of the reasons why
> cross-hatch fills were invented :-)
>
> In case anyone is wondering, drafting film is generally a polymer film
> (not a paper, so it does melt!) that has silica powder added to the
> plastic mix (double side matt finish), or has silica powder pressed into
> one side (single matt). The idea is to print on the matt side where the
> silica absorbs the ink, and as others suggest, is the side that has to be
> in contact with the PCB resist during exposure.
> BTW, silica in drafting film is really good at blunting scissors!
>
> More recently I experimented with old Tektronix/Xerox Phaser printers
> (colour wax printers) directly onto adhesive backed copper foil.
> This worked quite well, although the adhesive starts to soften if you
> leave it in hot etchant too long.
> I then stick an adhesive polymer film over the top to hold the copper in
> place, and remove the foil's own backing to expose the copper's adhesive.
> Then I stick it all down on a blank board, and finally peel the top film
> off (being careful to leave the copper behind on the substrate).
> The process need refinement, but has produced a couple of prototype flex
> circuits to date. Unfortunately the foil's adhesive isn't designed for
> high temperatures so solder quickly! Some future experimentation with
> epoxy glues is in order.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
> Bionics Institute
> Melbourne, Australia
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Mitch Davis
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 May 2013 11:52 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> do more than six feet. Now that I'm almost 60 (yikes!) well, you don't
>> want to know.
>
> Switch to metric. You can stand a lot closer, your feet stay drier,
> and you can keep your vanity "score" the same :-)
>
>> I make double sided PCBs with plated-thru holes
>
> I'd be very interested to read more about that, do you have a blog
> page or web page showing what you do? I'm especially interested in
> how you get registration between the two sides right.
>
>> a side because of the distortion caused by printing laser transparencies.
>
> Have you tried printing on drafting paper? Drafting paper is
> transparent to UV, and I've had good success with it. I just bought a
> pad at the stationery shop. And just as for transparency, the
> printing should go against the board.
>
> You can read about my method with drafting paper here:
>
> http://capnstech.blogspot.com/2011/05/playpause-making-pcbs-at-home.html
>
> All the best!
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

> Russell Shaw wrote:
>
> What model number is the Canon? Is it using
> the standard genuine ink?
>
> Some inks won't soak into the gelatine film.

i865 using genuine BC3/CL6 carts.

I have tried CL8 carts in a newer printer
and are the same results.

Have not tried any of the disposable printhead
ones.

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Phil@Yahoo <yahoo@...> wrote:

> Can you be specific? I've looked at drafting paper and tracing paper at
> Office Max etc and found them to be either too thin or ridiculously
> expensive. I've tried printing on parchment paper but the toner comes off if
> you even touch it.

Not sure you're asking me, but FWIW I just grabbed some tracing paper
from the stationery shop down the street:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yA5l0fF3WiY/Te2TfNZSipI/AAAAAAAAABw/YAWl6gC--dw/s1600/SNC10193r.JPG

Toner goes on, toner stays on.

Mitch.

> Phil wrote:
>
> I haven't measured the film, but I'd guess
> about 1 or 2 mils thick.

33um (1.3 mil inch) is the thickness of stuff
that the manufacturer of the stuff I use says
is unsuitable for "tenting"

50um (2 mil inch) is listed as good for tent

So 1..2 mil could make a difference.

I nice high contrast phototool makes a diff
too. Getting the tent all UV'd up before the
develop step.

> Phil wrote:
>
> Exactly what I have found. Do you have a brand
> name for the gel-coat transparency film?
> <SNIP>

Random brand here.

HOWEVER here is the big tip. They have probably
absorbed a lot of moisture from the air.

Put them in the oven for 10 mins at 140c before
hand to dry em out. They soak up heaps of ink
and get plenty dark then :D

My full procedure is

Print artwork in draft mode onto sheet of A4
Cut tranny to cover artwork with few cm border
tape tranny to paper along one edge with 3M tape
put in oven for 10 mins
remove from oven and tape opposite edge
run through printer (mode = tranny+high)

That is an interesting piece of information about drying the film before
printing. One more variable to test.



I worry though that the artwork will change dimensions as it reabsorbs
humidity but I do not know how significant it is. Of course that also
depends on the size of the artwork.



Maybe dry it again before imaging onto the PCB.

Bertho



From: cunningfellow Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 23:19

> Phil wrote:
> Exactly what I have found. Do you have a brand name for the gel-coat

transparency film?

> <SNIP>

Random brand here.

HOWEVER here is the big tip. They have probably absorbed a lot of moisture
from the air.

Put them in the oven for 10 mins at 140c beforehand to dry em out. They soak
up heaps of ink and get plenty dark then :D

My full procedure is
Print artwork in draft mode onto sheet of A4 Cut tranny to cover artwork
with few cm border tape tranny to paper along one edge with 3M tape put in
oven for 10 mins remove from oven and tape opposite edge run through printer
(mode = tranny+high)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 23/05/13 12:41, cunningfellow wrote:

>
>> Russell Shaw wrote:
>>
>> What model number is the Canon? Is it using
>> the standard genuine ink?
>>
>> Some inks won't soak into the gelatine film.
>
> i865 using genuine BC3/CL6 carts.
>
> I have tried CL8 carts in a newer printer
> and are the same results.
>
> Have not tried any of the disposable printhead
> ones.

I think the gelatine coating only absorbs and quickly dries with dye ink.

The i865 has both pigment and dye ink black tanks, though the aftermarket cheap
replacement for the pigment tank is usually a dye one too. The colour tanks are
all dye.

When printing with text, the pigment tank is used. Pigment ink stays wet on the
gelatine surface because the ink is oil/wax based to be waterproof. The gelatine
only absorbs water, and dye inks are more "watery" based.

<http://www.ebay.com/gds/canon-bci-3ebk-amp-pgi-5-pigmented-ink-dye-based-ink/10000000003634448/g.html>

<http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Printers/Inkjet/i865/index.aspx?specs=1>

A pigment ink gets its colour from the colour of the suspended solids. They
usually fade less in UV light.

A dye ink has no solids. The colour comes from the liquid. They usually break
down and fade more in UV light (i can't say for certain about modern
formulations though).

> Russell Shaw wrote:
>
>
> I think the gelatine coating only absorbs
> and quickly dries with dye ink.
>
> The i865 has both pigment and dye ink black
> tanks, though the aftermarket cheap replacement
> for the pigment tank is usually a dye one too.
> The colour tanks are all dye.
>
> When printing with text, the pigment tank is
> used. Pigment ink stays wet on the gelatine
> surface because the ink is oil/wax based to be
> waterproof. The gelatine only absorbs water,
> and dye inks are more "watery" based.
>
> <SNIP URLS>
>
> A pigment ink gets its colour from the colour
> of the suspended solids. They usually fade
> less in UV light.
>
> A dye ink has no solids. The colour comes from
> the liquid. They usually break down and fade
> more in UV light (i can't say for certain about
> modern formulations though).

I think (but am not sure) that my phototool
printing is being done with the BC-3 (pigment)
cart.

The print was told to do "B&W only"

I will try do some tests making sure different
carts are used to see.

BTW - the ink DOES stay "wet" for a long time on
the gelatine surface. However after the oven
treatment it does not "pool" when wet so makes
nice solid dark (temporarily wet) blacks.

I have read that yellow ink is sometimes more
UV blocking than black because of anti-fade
UV blockers used. I have not tried this myself
yet.

> Boman33 wrote:
>
> That is an interesting piece of information
> about drying the film before printing. One
> more variable to test.
>
> I worry though that the artwork will change
> dimensions as it reabsorbs humidity but I do
> not know how significant it is. Of course
> that also depends on the size of the artwork.
>
> Maybe dry it again before imaging onto the
> PCB.

The base material is a dimensionally stable
non-water-absorbing plastic.

It is only a thin gelatine coating on the top
than needs drying.

I guess I don't know what "tenting" means.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "cunningfellow" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:13 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


>> Phil wrote:
>>
>> I haven't measured the film, but I'd guess
>> about 1 or 2 mils thick.
>
> 33um (1.3 mil inch) is the thickness of stuff
> that the manufacturer of the stuff I use says
> is unsuitable for "tenting"
>
> 50um (2 mil inch) is listed as good for tent
>
> So 1..2 mil could make a difference.
>
> I nice high contrast phototool makes a diff
> too. Getting the tent all UV'd up before the
> develop step.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I looked at alot of inkjet tranny films online last nite, could find none
that specifically mention gelatin as a coating. None of them seems to give
any reason at all why you should pay more for one than another, though the
prices vary widely. Just the same, I think I will try one of the higher
quality films for inkjet and see how it goes. If I can figure out what
exactly constitutes higher quality. I'll make a point of keeping it sealed
for storage.
--
Phil M.

----- Original Message -----
From: "cunningfellow" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:19 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer


>
>
>> Phil wrote:
>>
>> Exactly what I have found. Do you have a brand
>> name for the gel-coat transparency film?
>> <SNIP>
>
> Random brand here.
>
> HOWEVER here is the big tip. They have probably
> absorbed a lot of moisture from the air.
>
> Put them in the oven for 10 mins at 140c before
> hand to dry em out. They soak up heaps of ink
> and get plenty dark then :D
>
> My full procedure is
>
> Print artwork in draft mode onto sheet of A4
> Cut tranny to cover artwork with few cm border
> tape tranny to paper along one edge with 3M tape
> put in oven for 10 mins
> remove from oven and tape opposite edge
> run through printer (mode = tranny+high)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

The way I've heard it used, it is when the coating forms a film over a hole. Either because you want it to, or don't want it to.

So if it is too thin, I presume it will not form a strong enough film to bridge a hole reliably.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil@..." <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> I guess I don't know what "tenting" means.
> --
> Phil M.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cunningfellow" <andrewm1973@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:13 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: printer
>
>
> >> Phil wrote:
> >>
> >> I haven't measured the film, but I'd guess
> >> about 1 or 2 mils thick.
> >
> > 33um (1.3 mil inch) is the thickness of stuff
> > that the manufacturer of the stuff I use says
> > is unsuitable for "tenting"
> >
> > 50um (2 mil inch) is listed as good for tent
> >
> > So 1..2 mil could make a difference.
> >
> > I nice high contrast phototool makes a diff
> > too. Getting the tent all UV'd up before the
> > develop step.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> > Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

That is good that it is not paper based since the variations would be
larger.

I still would be suspicious until the dimensional effect of drying is
verified. It might very well be insignificant on small board sizes.

As a reference, we are having custom injection molded parts made. The
plastic is very dry after the molding process and it slowly over the next
half year or so absorbs humidity to finally stabilize in size and water
content.



To avoid size problems with matching new and old parts, the new parts are
kept in near boiling water for about 40 minutes to quickly reach the stable
point.

Bertho



From: cunningfellow Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 19:08

> Boman33 wrote:
>
> That is an interesting piece of information
> about drying the film before printing. One
> more variable to test.
>
> I worry though that the artwork will change
> dimensions as it reabsorbs humidity but I do
> not know how significant it is. Of course
> that also depends on the size of the artwork.
>
> Maybe dry it again before imaging onto the
> PCB.

The base material is a dimensionally stable
non-water-absorbing plastic.

It is only a thin gelatine coating on the top
than needs drying.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 24/05/13 09:00, cunningfellow wrote:

>> Russell Shaw wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think the gelatine coating only absorbs
>> and quickly dries with dye ink.
>>
>> The i865 has both pigment and dye ink black
>> tanks, though the aftermarket cheap replacement
>> for the pigment tank is usually a dye one too.
>> The colour tanks are all dye.
>>
>> When printing with text, the pigment tank is
>> used. Pigment ink stays wet on the gelatine
>> surface because the ink is oil/wax based to be
>> waterproof. The gelatine only absorbs water,
>> and dye inks are more "watery" based.
>>
>> <SNIP URLS>
>>
>> A pigment ink gets its colour from the colour
>> of the suspended solids. They usually fade
>> less in UV light.
>>
>> A dye ink has no solids. The colour comes from
>> the liquid. They usually break down and fade
>> more in UV light (i can't say for certain about
>> modern formulations though).
>
> I think (but am not sure) that my phototool
> printing is being done with the BC-3 (pigment)
> cart.
>
> The print was told to do "B&W only"
>
> I will try do some tests making sure different
> carts are used to see.
>
> BTW - the ink DOES stay "wet" for a long time on
> the gelatine surface. However after the oven
> treatment it does not "pool" when wet so makes
> nice solid dark (temporarily wet) blacks.

Ok, sounds like pigment.

Using genuine Epson dye ink on my old stock of epson gelatine transparencies,
the ink is instantly absorbed and dry.

> I have read that yellow ink is sometimes more
> UV blocking than black because of anti-fade
> UV blockers used. I have not tried this myself
> yet.