Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

   Just joined the group, mainly to share this for the moment.  If 
you've tried the laser toner transfer and didn't get near perfect 
results, you should really try it again with fusing it 3 times as below. 
  It seems like this would make the toner stay in the paper and be 
harder to transfer, but it really makes the toner and outer paper 
surface become one, transfer heat to the toner better, and then the 
outer surface tears at the edge of the toner when removing the paper far 
better.  Also seems to dry out or 'burn' the rest of the paper coating 
that doesn't have toner, making it much less likely to stick to the 
board from ironing.  Nearly perfect results and in the etch tank within 
5 minutes of printing, I'm now doing SO and TSOP surface mount boards 
with ease.

   First, take a look here in the PCB folder.  Might want to check in my 
stepper and light folders too while you're there.  I have my own 
intelligent 3 stepper controller and a few hundred stepper motors on 
hand as well.  Also have a homemade CNC driller that reads the excellon 
files from Eagle to drill boards.

http://photos.yahoo.com/alantak69

   Fuzziness is from the camera not doing close focus very well.  Note 
that the toner held the paper to it, the coating seperated at the trace 
edges.  No paper in the holes etc, and an excellent pattern in the trash 
paper as well from the coating left on the paper.  Far better results 
than I'd ever gotten with this method before.  All because I printed a 
couple extra TSOP patterns by running through the printer again.  Didn't 
care if the main board didn't come out, and it ended up working ten 
times better than it ever did before.  This is using the JetPrint Photo 
paper and my HP Laserjet 6l.


   No doubt most of you are familiar with this page:

http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm

   I could make a useable board following this, but it was a lot of work 
removing the extra paper etc and touching up the board.  Now it is 
simply a matter of a few minutes ironing, then some hot water, then some 
cold water, then peel.  Etching within 5 minutes or so.  My results are 
now super and easy, where before it was a lot of work to get a useable 
board.  It's now so good that I had to share for anyone else not getting 
terrific results..

   Rest of the message is cut and paste from a couple I sent to Tom with 
more complete details:


Hi Tom,

   Might want to try what I've described below, much improved results 
over just fusing once.  Previously I'd assumed that having the toner 
fused as little to the paper as possible would be best, but now I 
realize that the extra fusing makes the rest of the paper much less 
likely to stick.  The below method work about ten times better than it 
ever did before with just a normal print, at least on my HP Laserjet 6l. 
  Results are now as good as any of the films, and no soaking just iron 
then wet then peel.  Actually I'll attach a pic or two, they're small. 
Fuzziness is from too close with a normal camera, the traces are sharp. 
  Note the white fuzz on the toner, not only did the toner stay stuck it 
kept the paper with it, almost no lifting at all.  May want to add it 
into your instructions so people don't start off doing too much work..

Alan

Tom,

   No problem.  I had always assumed that sticking the toner more to the 
paper would be a bad thing, but I happened to have a small test board 
printed that I didn't care if it wasn't perfect when made.  I also 
wanted to make a small test spider pattern for a 8 pin TSOP part, so to 
double up I printed two on unused areas of the same paper.  Also didn't 
care if it peeled a bit, so didn't wait and just peeled after putting 
under water.  Lo and behold it worked much better than ever before, and 
after the fact it wasn't hard to think of a reason or two why that might 
be the case.  Made another board or two now, and trace edges are razor 
sharp now too.  Still get some minor mashing etc if ironed too hard, but 
looks as good as the commercial films, and even they have you soaking 
longer than what I'm doing now.  I hardly even give it time to get wet 
and cool off a bit before I start peeling.  It's quite good at TSOP 
level now, my original boards a year ago could barely even do 16 mil 
traces ok with the same printer and paper.  Just had lots of peeling 
traces and having to pick at the stuck paper surface.  No more 
toothbrush hole cleaning!
   Also not even bothering to iron nearly so completely now, just iron a 
few minutes pressing here and there to change the holes around and it 
works.  Only had a tiny little peel or two on the last board, and I 
really was pushing it and didn't iron but a couple minutes or so, 
nowhere near a thorough job.
   I am abolutely positive the commercial paper people already hate me 
though, I have posted this to several places already, just finally 
getting back to your page.   It was useable before but now it is hard to 
see anyone ever buying a more expensive paper.

Alan

thanks for that..

will try tomorrow.
too late today, do you set printer to darkest?


st

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:52:35 -0400, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just joined the group, mainly to share this for the moment.  If you've 
> tried the laser toner transfer and didn't get near perfect results, you 
> should really try it again with fusing it 3 times as below. It seems like 
> this would make the toner stay in the paper and be harder to transfer, 
> but it really makes the toner and outer paper surface become one, 
> transfer heat to the toner better, and then the outer surface tears at 
> the edge of the toner when removing the paper far better.  Also seems to 
> dry out or 'burn' the rest of the paper coating that doesn't have toner, 
> making it much less likely to stick to the board from ironing.  Nearly 
> perfect results and in the etch tank within 5 minutes of printing, I'm 
> now doing SO and TSOP surface mount boards with ease.
>
> First, take a look here in the PCB folder.  Might want to check in my 
> stepper and light folders too while you're there.  I have my own 
> intelligent 3 stepper controller and a few hundred stepper motors on hand 
> as well.  Also have a homemade CNC driller that reads the excellon files 
> from Eagle to drill boards.
>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/alantak69
>
> Fuzziness is from the camera not doing close focus very well.  Note that 
> the toner held the paper to it, the coating seperated at the trace edges. 
> No paper in the holes etc, and an excellent pattern in the trash paper as 
> well from the coating left on the paper.  Far better results than I'd 
> ever gotten with this method before.  All because I printed a couple 
> extra TSOP patterns by running through the printer again.  Didn't care if 
> the main board didn't come out, and it ended up working ten times better 
> than it ever did before.  This is using the JetPrint Photo paper and my 
> HP Laserjet 6l.
>
>
> No doubt most of you are familiar with this page:
>
> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
>
> I could make a useable board following this, but it was a lot of work 
> removing the extra paper etc and touching up the board.  Now it is simply 
> a matter of a few minutes ironing, then some hot water, then some cold 
> water, then peel.  Etching within 5 minutes or so.  My results are now 
> super and easy, where before it was a lot of work to get a useable board. 
> It's now so good that I had to share for anyone else not getting terrific 
> results..
>
> Rest of the message is cut and paste from a couple I sent to Tom with 
> more complete details:
>
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> Might want to try what I've described below, much improved results over 
> just fusing once.  Previously I'd assumed that having the toner fused as 
> little to the paper as possible would be best, but now I realize that the 
> extra fusing makes the rest of the paper much less likely to stick.  The 
> below method work about ten times better than it ever did before with 
> just a normal print, at least on my HP Laserjet 6l. Results are now as 
> good as any of the films, and no soaking just iron then wet then peel.  
> Actually I'll attach a pic or two, they're small. Fuzziness is from too 
> close with a normal camera, the traces are sharp. Note the white fuzz on 
> the toner, not only did the toner stay stuck it kept the paper with it, 
> almost no lifting at all.  May want to add it into your instructions so 
> people don't start off doing too much work..
>
> Alan
>
> Tom,
>
> No problem.  I had always assumed that sticking the toner more to the 
> paper would be a bad thing, but I happened to have a small test board 
> printed that I didn't care if it wasn't perfect when made.  I also wanted 
> to make a small test spider pattern for a 8 pin TSOP part, so to double 
> up I printed two on unused areas of the same paper.  Also didn't care if 
> it peeled a bit, so didn't wait and just peeled after putting under 
> water.  Lo and behold it worked much better than ever before, and after 
> the fact it wasn't hard to think of a reason or two why that might be the 
> case.  Made another board or two now, and trace edges are razor sharp now 
> too.  Still get some minor mashing etc if ironed too hard, but looks as 
> good as the commercial films, and even they have you soaking longer than 
> what I'm doing now.  I hardly even give it time to get wet and cool off a 
> bit before I start peeling.  It's quite good at TSOP level now, my 
> original boards a year ago could barely even do 16 mil traces ok with the 
> same printer and paper.  Just had lots of peeling traces and having to 
> pick at the stuck paper surface.  No more toothbrush hole cleaning!
> Also not even bothering to iron nearly so completely now, just iron a few 
> minutes pressing here and there to change the holes around and it works.  
> Only had a tiny little peel or two on the last board, and I really was 
> pushing it and didn't iron but a couple minutes or so, nowhere near a 
> thorough job.
> I am abolutely positive the commercial paper people already hate me 
> though, I have posted this to several places already, just finally 
> getting back to your page.   It was useable before but now it is hard to 
> see anyone ever buying a more expensive paper.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

ok, i decided i can't sleep without reading that completely...

i have some questions.

a) you use jetprint photo paper.
this is inkjet paper right?
I have none at home, did you try glossy magazine paper?
does it work with your method?

b) how does fusing after the actual printing affect the process?
(this idea came while reading how you discovered it, i wonder how the test 
pattern
came out (second print).

thanks for sharing that..
maybe i will get it to work for me, the direct plotting i try for ages now
still doesn't work perfect. But i managed to use colophony resin as ink.
works same as staedtler red ink now, but still the metal tip pen scratches
the paint off.... but... that's a completely different story....

I will try what you described tomorrow, with magazine paper for now.

st

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 16:52:35 -0400, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just joined the group, mainly to share this for the moment.  If you've 
> tried the laser toner transfer and didn't get near perfect results, you 
> should really try it again with fusing it 3 times as below. It seems like 
> this would make the toner stay in the paper and be harder to transfer, 
> but it really makes the toner and outer paper surface become one, 
> transfer heat to the toner better, and then the outer surface tears at 
> the edge of the toner when removing the paper far better.  Also seems to 
> dry out or 'burn' the rest of the paper coating that doesn't have toner, 
> making it much less likely to stick to the board from ironing.  Nearly 
> perfect results and in the etch tank within 5 minutes of printing, I'm 
> now doing SO and TSOP surface mount boards with ease.
>
> First, take a look here in the PCB folder.  Might want to check in my 
> stepper and light folders too while you're there.  I have my own 
> intelligent 3 stepper controller and a few hundred stepper motors on hand 
> as well.  Also have a homemade CNC driller that reads the excellon files 
> from Eagle to drill boards.
>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/alantak69
>
> Fuzziness is from the camera not doing close focus very well.  Note that 
> the toner held the paper to it, the coating seperated at the trace edges. 
> No paper in the holes etc, and an excellent pattern in the trash paper as 
> well from the coating left on the paper.  Far better results than I'd 
> ever gotten with this method before.  All because I printed a couple 
> extra TSOP patterns by running through the printer again.  Didn't care if 
> the main board didn't come out, and it ended up working ten times better 
> than it ever did before.  This is using the JetPrint Photo paper and my 
> HP Laserjet 6l.
>
>
> No doubt most of you are familiar with this page:
>
> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
>
> I could make a useable board following this, but it was a lot of work 
> removing the extra paper etc and touching up the board.  Now it is simply 
> a matter of a few minutes ironing, then some hot water, then some cold 
> water, then peel.  Etching within 5 minutes or so.  My results are now 
> super and easy, where before it was a lot of work to get a useable board. 
> It's now so good that I had to share for anyone else not getting terrific 
> results..
>
> Rest of the message is cut and paste from a couple I sent to Tom with 
> more complete details:
>
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> Might want to try what I've described below, much improved results over 
> just fusing once.  Previously I'd assumed that having the toner fused as 
> little to the paper as possible would be best, but now I realize that the 
> extra fusing makes the rest of the paper much less likely to stick.  The 
> below method work about ten times better than it ever did before with 
> just a normal print, at least on my HP Laserjet 6l. Results are now as 
> good as any of the films, and no soaking just iron then wet then peel.  
> Actually I'll attach a pic or two, they're small. Fuzziness is from too 
> close with a normal camera, the traces are sharp. Note the white fuzz on 
> the toner, not only did the toner stay stuck it kept the paper with it, 
> almost no lifting at all.  May want to add it into your instructions so 
> people don't start off doing too much work..
>
> Alan
>
> Tom,
>
> No problem.  I had always assumed that sticking the toner more to the 
> paper would be a bad thing, but I happened to have a small test board 
> printed that I didn't care if it wasn't perfect when made.  I also wanted 
> to make a small test spider pattern for a 8 pin TSOP part, so to double 
> up I printed two on unused areas of the same paper.  Also didn't care if 
> it peeled a bit, so didn't wait and just peeled after putting under 
> water.  Lo and behold it worked much better than ever before, and after 
> the fact it wasn't hard to think of a reason or two why that might be the 
> case.  Made another board or two now, and trace edges are razor sharp now 
> too.  Still get some minor mashing etc if ironed too hard, but looks as 
> good as the commercial films, and even they have you soaking longer than 
> what I'm doing now.  I hardly even give it time to get wet and cool off a 
> bit before I start peeling.  It's quite good at TSOP level now, my 
> original boards a year ago could barely even do 16 mil traces ok with the 
> same printer and paper.  Just had lots of peeling traces and having to 
> pick at the stuck paper surface.  No more toothbrush hole cleaning!
> Also not even bothering to iron nearly so completely now, just iron a few 
> minutes pressing here and there to change the holes around and it works.  
> Only had a tiny little peel or two on the last board, and I really was 
> pushing it and didn't iron but a couple minutes or so, nowhere near a 
> thorough job.
> I am abolutely positive the commercial paper people already hate me 
> though, I have posted this to several places already, just finally 
> getting back to your page.   It was useable before but now it is hard to 
> see anyone ever buying a more expensive paper.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi

did today try the iron on again.
Damn thing won't work.
used different Papers (magazine).
Problems: the lines get sqeezed, turn out broader than they should be, but 
very irregular.
also sometimes there are holes....
a straight line looks awful... lika a very bad scan or so.
may buy photo paper monday...


BUT - i read of something new:


http://www.solarbotics.net/library/techniques/buildpcb_trnsfr.html#blender_pen

Resist pattern applied via "blender pen"
This method comes courtesy of Jesse Willis: What I did was swing by my 
local art store and pick up an Eberhard Faber Design Art Marker, Broad Nib 
311 Colorless Blender (only about $2 US). With this, you simply photocopy 
the circuit you wish, and then lay the photocopy face down on the PCB. Run 
the marker over the back of the photocopy, and the image transfers to the 
copper.

also read this message at the bottom:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/letterbox-usa/message/2264


does anyone has any idea what is going on there?
I assume this is some kind of solvent pen, but which, how, why, where to 
get?

regards
stefan

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> Hi
> 
> did today try the iron on again.
> Damn thing won't work.
> used different Papers (magazine).
> Problems: the lines get sqeezed, turn out broader than they should be, but 
> very irregular.
> also sometimes there are holes....
> a straight line looks awful... lika a very bad scan or so.
> may buy photo paper monday...
>

   Not sure I'd expect it to work well with magazine paper, most are 
very slick and solid surfaced, fusing might tend to spread the toner 
out.  Sounds like what you got too.  Get the $10 for 50 sheet pack type 
of photo paper, the Jetprint Photo Graphic Image Paper Gloss Finish is 
what I'm using and works great this way, some have reported similar good 
results with Cannon paper as well if you can't find the Jetprint.
   Office Max doesn't seem to have the Jetprint anymore, but sells their 
own brand.  I strongly suspect it's just their label and is still the 
same Hammermill paper, but haven't been there to see if it matches up 
yet.  Staples has the Jetprint brand though last I've heard if there's 
one near you.

Alan

>
> Not sure I'd expect it to work well with magazine paper, most are very 
> slick and solid surfaced, fusing might tend to spread the toner out.  
> Sounds like what you got too.  Get the $10 for 50 sheet pack type of 
> photo paper, the Jetprint Photo Graphic Image Paper Gloss Finish is what 
> I'm using and works great this way, some have reported similar good 
> results with Cannon paper as well if you can't find the Jetprint.
> Office Max doesn't seem to have the Jetprint anymore, but sells their own 
> brand.  I strongly suspect it's just their label and is still the same 
> Hammermill paper, but haven't been there to see if it matches up yet.  
> Staples has the Jetprint brand though last I've heard if there's one near 
> you.
>
> Alan
>
>
>


well, staples or office max is a few tousand kilometers away from me (the 
nearest).
So this is NOT an option, but thanks for the suggestion ;-) .
Jetprint is definitely not common here. Won't find it, checked already.
But i should get the canon paper.. on monday..
I also found original HP toner on ebay (very cheap). will buy it because 
the toner
i have is known to be really bad.... Some day this toner will get empty 
anyways...


Hope it works then.

I also will have to get myself a cloth iron for that work... have lots, of 
the old kind without
steam too (no holes), somewhere... in some banana box.. you know that...

thanks

st

I to have just been playing with toner transfer.  Plain paper, 
transparency paper and coated ink jet paper, plus PNP Blue.  The PNP 
blue is definitely easier, but not perfect, you must be carefull 
handeling it.  Just got a board ready to etch with ink jet transfer.  
more work, but at this point looks better prior to etch.  Epson high 
quality ink jet paper.  Must use the coated side.  I goofed at first 
printing on the wrong side, could almost get it but not quite.

Phil

I'm not sure that necessarily sounds like the transport medium; more 
a technique issue.  If you use the wrong heat/pressure it is fairly 
easy to hose up toner transfer --even with the specialty coated 
papers (pnp and others).  I've found that using a paper laminator 
solves a great many headaches using this medium.  As for me, I 
*prefer* magazine stock; but a lot of other paper types can be made 
to work.  YMMV; but you need to find a way to get some consistancy 
with your method --paper laminators can be had cheap these days.

-Dal
http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm

> > did today try the iron on again.
> > Damn thing won't work.
> > used different Papers (magazine).
> > Problems: the lines get sqeezed, turn out broader than they 
should be, but 
> > very irregular.
>>    Not sure I'd expect it to work well with magazine paper, most 
are 
> very slick and solid surfaced, fusing might tend to spread the 
toner 
> out.  Sounds like what you got too.  Get the $10 for 50 sheet pack

Hi

Managed to get some inkjet photo paper today.
There was only HP and Zweckform. I read HP made promblems so i tried 
zweckform.
They have a vast selection of Inkjet photo papers, maybe a three meter long 
shelf one
kind aside the other.

The differences are hard to find out, there are many different weights.

I went with one which was not too expensive.

Tried it instantly - printed once, let it run through again for additional 
fusing (with blank image).

MUCH better than any paper i tried before. But still the surface is made of 
fibers, which fuse to the toner and
are hard to get off. I hoped to get one which is clay coated.

One edge of the pcb didn't work well. Toner not fused. Maybe bad prepared 
or not constant pressure.

But the rest almost looked like it may have resulted in a useable pcb.


I can easily take the fuser unit out of one of the dead copiers.
Maybe i can use it as a laminator.
With some care i can reuse the temperature controller too (with less care i 
will have to build one myself).

What do you think, with a copier fuser, wouldn't i have to pass it through 
several times? or very slowly?
I mean it will take quite a while to heat a copper coated pcb.



I really think i still have not the paper you are writing about,
zweckform has a homepage, www.zweckform.com, where it lists all papers.
Maybe in some spare minutes someone knowing the papers may go there and 
have a look.
I got the paper No. 2599, to be found at the inkjet papers.

The page is german, at my site, but it seems it autodetects the language.
So i hope yours will be english.

As always, any hints very appreciated

Stefan

I've actually thought about this before.  My concern would be that of 
the few old laser printers/copiers that I've taken apart; the fuser 
units used pretty pliable rollers (some kind of teflon coated 
neoprene).  To get a good image takes a bit of pressure as well --the 
laminator I use has pretty rigid rubber rollers.  I'd say give it a 
go and see what happens.  I know of one guy that did this and it 
seemed to work for him --it happened to have hard rubber rollers 
though.  He used light dimmers and ceiling fan controllers for heat 
and feed speed control.  BTW, I do 6-12 passes through the laminator 
typically --no speed control on it -yet.
:')
-Dal

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> I can easily take the fuser unit out of one of the dead copiers.
> Maybe i can use it as a laminator.
> With some care i can reuse the temperature controller too (with 
less care i 
> will have to build one myself).
> 
> What do you think, with a copier fuser, wouldn't i have to pass it 
through 
> several times? or very slowly?
> I mean it will take quite a while to heat a copper coated pcb.

Edges can be a problem even with a laminator.  I've attributed those 
problems to either not cleaning along the edge as well as I should or 
not deburring the cut edges.  The later is the more common problem.  
If any of the copper is protruding above the rest of the surface the 
rollers can give irregular pressure in that area and not fuse as well 
as other areas.  I debur the edges with a deburing tool and sand the 
edges now when I cut down stock to be used.  Rotating the stock 
during multiple passes also helps to solve this problem.  Also I 
always print the board border when doing toner transfer.  This helps 
to minimize the pucker of the paper when it gets wet.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> One edge of the pcb didn't work well. Toner not fused. Maybe bad 
prepared 
> or not constant pressure.
> 
> But the rest almost looked like it may have resulted in a useable 
pcb.

That's a good idea:
  Also I always print the board border when
> doing toner transfer.  This helps to minimize the pucker of the paper 
> when it gets wet.
>

The fuser in the printer i have uses one aluminium teflon coated roller, 
heated, on the toner side,
and one orange rubber roller (also coated in some way) on the lower, back 
of paper side.

The rubber roller is not heated i think, it's just for counterpressure.

I've seen this arangement in any prnter / copier i've looked in, always one 
aluminium/teflon, heated and
one rubber.


No idea what will happen if i use the teflon roller on the 
paper/toner/copper contact side.
maybe if the pcb is not flat it will not work.

But using the rubber roller on the "interesting" side is not of much use 
too... (not heated)


As soon as time allows i will try different thing, I've bought the paper 
already and not much other use
for it so i can experiment with the parameters.

I will also get the hp toner on ebay (missed the first one - ended at only 
5 eur but i forgot to look after the
auction) I definitely know the toner i have is scrap.


but the number of runs in the fuser is a great help. speeds up trying if 
you have something to start with.


thanks
stefan

Copier fusers can be up to a 800-900 hundred watts, much more powerful than
most laminators. It might even work better. Copier fusers are high powered
in order to reduce warmup time, vs a laminator is on all of the time. You
will have to tweak with the controller though, as the parameters are going
to be a lot different with copper as compared to normal paper handling. The
copier controller is designed for very fast ramp rates, I don't know if you
can slow it down so that it will deal with the slow changes caused by copper
laminate.

Good luck
Ron

Really, the method works (with a laminator).  I'm familliar with the 
photo-resist method and have the equipment and have used it in the 
past.  I don't use photoresist now because toner transfer works great 
for me.  Once you get it figured out it is actually faster.  I can do 
everything I want with less expensive materials.  I've done stuff 
quite a bit more complex than what I've published on the website; but 
I thought the given examples were sufficient to prove you can do 
pretty fine pitch work with the method.  There still seem to be some 
critics out there.  Thats fine; but don't discount something just 
because you haven't had as good of results yet.

I've just done (last month) a 188 processor board with 2 100 pin 
tqfp's, 1 32pin tsop,1 40 pin pdip, 1 28 pin SOIC, 1 24 pin SOIC, 
several headers, leds, resistors, caps, SOT-223's.  This one was 
tight and a bit of a headache, but more from drilling and soldering 
that many holes (>100).  Thats mostly because I used a $39 harbor 
freight drill press.
Maybe I'll have to post more pictures...

Anyway, photoresist works.  Toner transfer also works.  Both take a 
little bit of experimentation to get workable results.  My first 
photoresist boards weren't exposed/developed perfectly, just as my 
first toner tranfer boards weren't perfect either.  A little patience 
and practice fixed that for me.  I'm sure it could for you as well.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> No idea what will happen if i use the teflon roller on the 
> paper/toner/copper contact side.
> maybe if the pcb is not flat it will not work.

People have written me that have 2 roller laminators with a similar 
setup to that that tell me that it works OK.  (Still both hard 
rollers; heat on one side though.)

(My laminator has 4 rollers with 2 heat elements in the middle 
(top/bottom))  The bottom element is slightly hotter though...

> As soon as time allows i will try different thing, I've bought the 
paper 
> already and not much other use
> for it so i can experiment with the parameters.

Thats the only way you get anywhere...  But honestly; I didn't have 
to experiment that much after I started using the laminator.  The 2nd 
attempt using it was nearly perfect.  After that there is some 
fiddling with the number of passes that each new size/board takes.  
IE a .5 oz 2"x2" (~6-8 passes) is different from a 2 oz 4"x6" (10-12 
passes). 

> 
> I will also get the hp toner on ebay (missed the first one - ended 
at only 
> 5 eur but i forgot to look after the
> auction) I definitely know the toner i have is scrap.

My genuine HP 5L toner works great --1 pass through the printer for 
an image --6-12 passes (+copper clad) through the laminator.

> 
> 
> but the number of runs in the fuser is a great help. speeds up 
trying if 
> you have something to start with.

OK people.
it's my turn!:-)
I tried the iron on.
bad to medium results, then I built a press with a temp controller just ok
results.
then I read about the laminator system !!!
I went to http://www.dynaart.com/ and yes I did order ,and it's like night
and day.
excellent system. good price since I have had the system I have made about
20 boards all with 100% results .
some soic , but mostly single sided,  fast and 100% results.
So to anyone who is wondering I highly recommend it.
OH, Frank at dynaart said that you should only have to run you board through
the laminator once but I do run it through twice I'M a chicken.
Regards
victor


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "wheedal99" <wheedal@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:08 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Laser toner transfer - IT WORKS


> Really, the method works (with a laminator).  I'm familliar with the
> photo-resist method and have the equipment and have used it in the
> past.  I don't use photoresist now because toner transfer works great
> for me.  Once you get it figured out it is actually faster.  I can do
> everything I want with less expensive materials.  I've done stuff
> quite a bit more complex than what I've published on the website; but
> I thought the given examples were sufficient to prove you can do
> pretty fine pitch work with the method.  There still seem to be some
> critics out there.  Thats fine; but don't discount something just
> because you haven't had as good of results yet.
>
> I've just done (last month) a 188 processor board with 2 100 pin
> tqfp's, 1 32pin tsop,1 40 pin pdip, 1 28 pin SOIC, 1 24 pin SOIC,
> several headers, leds, resistors, caps, SOT-223's.  This one was
> tight and a bit of a headache, but more from drilling and soldering
> that many holes (>100).  Thats mostly because I used a $39 harbor
> freight drill press.
> Maybe I'll have to post more pictures...
>
> Anyway, photoresist works.  Toner transfer also works.  Both take a
> little bit of experimentation to get workable results.  My first
> photoresist boards weren't exposed/developed perfectly, just as my
> first toner tranfer boards weren't perfect either.  A little patience
> and practice fixed that for me.  I'm sure it could for you as well.
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Faria" <victorf57@c...>
wrote:
...
> OH, Frank at dynaart said that you should only have to run you board
through
> the laminator once but I do run it through twice I'M a chicken.
...

That's because the DynaArt laminator has been modified to roll it
through very, very slowly. Unmodified laminators take less than a
minute for a full page feed.

Steve Greenfield

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:38:09 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Faria" <victorf57@c...>
> wrote:
> ...
>> OH, Frank at dynaart said that you should only have to run you board
> through
>> the laminator once but I do run it through twice I'M a chicken.
> ...
>
> That's because the DynaArt laminator has been modified to roll it
> through very, very slowly. Unmodified laminators take less than a
> minute for a full page feed.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>
I would very appreciate if i can get some specifications about the speed.
Time per Full page feed is perfectly ok, or pages per minute, or whatever 
length per time.

Will have to make a drive system for the fuser (is driven by copiers main 
belt system).
Therefore knowing which speed to aim for (will have electronis speed 
control anyways)
would be nice

stefan

They also use heated rollers, and probably a little warmer to boot.  
Its looks like a nice unit. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:

> That's because the DynaArt laminator has been modified to roll it
> through very, very slowly. Unmodified laminators take less than a
> minute for a full page feed.
> 
> Steve Greenfield

I do believe you are speaking of their old model!!!
they have a new ver.
working from memory it takes about 3 min to get up to temp.
and I would say about 1 minute or less for a full sheet is about right.
from what I gathered from Frank he has to modify very little and if my
memory
doesn't fail me here I think it has something to do with the
volume/thickness of the board but I could be wrong. :-)
regards
victor


----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Steve" <alienrelics@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 12:38 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser toner transfer - IT WORKS


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Faria" <victorf57@c...>
> wrote:
> ...
> > OH, Frank at dynaart said that you should only have to run you board
> through
> > the laminator once but I do run it through twice I'M a chicken.
> ...
>
> That's because the DynaArt laminator has been modified to roll it
> through very, very slowly. Unmodified laminators take less than a
> minute for a full page feed.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

If you go up to the dynaart site you can get some info on the laminator.
I believe it's made by GBC you can buy it at office max.
so I'm sure you can download a spec sheet some where.
but if you can't find anything let me know and I will time it for you :-).
victor
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser toner transfer - IT WORKS


> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 05:38:09 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Faria" <victorf57@c...>
> > wrote:
> > ...
> >> OH, Frank at dynaart said that you should only have to run you board
> > through
> >> the laminator once but I do run it through twice I'M a chicken.
> > ...
> >
> > That's because the DynaArt laminator has been modified to roll it
> > through very, very slowly. Unmodified laminators take less than a
> > minute for a full page feed.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
> >
> I would very appreciate if i can get some specifications about the speed.
> Time per Full page feed is perfectly ok, or pages per minute, or whatever
> length per time.
>
> Will have to make a drive system for the fuser (is driven by copiers main
> belt system).
> Therefore knowing which speed to aim for (will have electronis speed
> control anyways)
> would be nice
>
> stefan
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>