Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-09 by bebx2000

I came across this on hackaday and thought it might be of some interest.

http://hackaday.com/2011/03/03/simple-pcb-etchant-made-from-chemicals-you-can-put-in-your-mouth/#more-36512

I use a saturated solution of vinegar and salt as a micro etch after cleaning the pcb and prior to toner transfer. The peroxide is new to me, however. The mixture seems to work quite well, but he doesn't say how long it takes to etch a board.

Here is the site with some chemistry,

http://www.stephenhobley.com/blog/2011/03/02/still-messing-with-forces-i-dont-understand-the-formula/

Baxter

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-09 by javaguy11111

I saw the same thing and tried it last night on a scrap piece of board. I was disappointed with the results. The board tarnished rather than etched.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-09 by Roland F. Harriston

Javaguy:

I think it works like: the peroxide "oxidizes" the copper, i.e.
decomposes it,
and the muriatic acid dissolves the decomposed copper.
I think the vinegar (acetic acid) would probably work, but it would
have to be a very strong vinegar. Household vinegar is about
2 or 3 percent acid.

Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
*******************

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-09 by RJ

Thanks Rolland ..
I wondered about that ..

I am also going to get a bottle of that
peroxide / phosphoric acid mix at the beauty supply.
Just to try it on a scrap board .. outside per chance there
could be bad fumes .. lol just to see .. am curious ..
and at 3.00 a bottle .. cant hurt .. I guess thats why I like ferrets .. allways curious about things .. and yes .. I heard what happened to that curious cat.

Randy - N2CUA

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roland F. Harriston" <rolohar@...> wrote:
>
> Javaguy:
>
> I think it works like: the peroxide "oxidizes" the copper, i.e.
> decomposes it,
> and the muriatic acid dissolves the decomposed copper.
> I think the vinegar (acetic acid) would probably work, but it would
> have to be a very strong vinegar. Household vinegar is about
> 2 or 3 percent acid.
>
> Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
> *******************
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-09 by Andrew Volk

Ah! About that curious cat, satisfaction brought him back!

Andy

_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of RJ
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:58 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

Thanks Rolland ..
I wondered about that ..

I am also going to get a bottle of that
peroxide / phosphoric acid mix at the beauty supply.
Just to try it on a scrap board .. outside per chance there
could be bad fumes .. lol just to see .. am curious ..
and at 3.00 a bottle .. cant hurt .. I guess thats why I like ferrets ..
allways curious about things .. and yes .. I heard what happened to that
curious cat.

Randy - N2CUA

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roland F. Harriston"
<rolohar@...> wrote:

>
> Javaguy:
>
> I think it works like: the peroxide "oxidizes" the copper, i.e.
> decomposes it,
> and the muriatic acid dissolves the decomposed copper.
> I think the vinegar (acetic acid) would probably work, but it would
> have to be a very strong vinegar. Household vinegar is about
> 2 or 3 percent acid.
>
> Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
> *******************
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-10 by Piers Goodhew

Kinda sounded to me like you get that CuCl precipitate that you need to
remove manually, either by agitating a lot or by scraping it off (like the
FeCl "wipe" method). Plus maybe you want to try more salt.

As I have a long way to go before my jar of persulphate is exhausted, I wont
be personally exprimenting with this one yet, but that's what I'd try.

PG

Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Andrew Volk <amvweb@...> wrote:

>
>
> Ah! About that curious cat, satisfaction brought him back!
>
> Andy
>
> _____
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of RJ
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:58 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching
>
>
> Thanks Rolland ..
> I wondered about that ..
>
> I am also going to get a bottle of that
> peroxide / phosphoric acid mix at the beauty supply.
> Just to try it on a scrap board .. outside per chance there
> could be bad fumes .. lol just to see .. am curious ..
> and at 3.00 a bottle .. cant hurt .. I guess thats why I like ferrets ..
> allways curious about things .. and yes .. I heard what happened to that
> curious cat.
>
> Randy - N2CUA
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roland F. Harriston"
>
> <rolohar@...> wrote:
> >
> > Javaguy:
> >
> > I think it works like: the peroxide "oxidizes" the copper, i.e.
> > decomposes it,
> > and the muriatic acid dissolves the decomposed copper.
> > I think the vinegar (acetic acid) would probably work, but it would
> > have to be a very strong vinegar. Household vinegar is about
> > 2 or 3 percent acid.
> >
> > Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong.
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
> > *******************
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-10 by RJ

hmmm I didnt know that about the cat ..
but I LIKE IT !!

The thing that makes me a inquisitive, curious PITA, is I guess my
personality has a blend of curiosity, creativity, perfectionism, and an insatiable need to learn new things ..
Which makes me wonder about all the facets of a concept such as the homebrew_PCB.. thoughts like .. well what if this .. or how about that ... Sorta like Doc Brown on back to the future .. LOL.

I thank the majority of the folks on here that are patient and understanding to that end.

I do think it does, on occasion, bring out a few things that weren't known and that can be added to the knowledge pool of the group ..

Its just sifting thru all the stuff thats repeated over again while we are headed down that road thats annoying people..

Thanks again all for a wonderful group ..

BTW .. side note .. bought a laminator that has a digital readout, goes to 390 deg F, and has 4 rollers and is build like a tank ..
for a whopping 80.00 .. oh and it has reverse .. lol
So i am hopeful it will work fine for this .. if not .. I continue with the mods to the existing laminator..

Nite all

Randy - N2CUA

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Volk" <amvweb@...> wrote:
>
> Ah! About that curious cat, satisfaction brought him back!
>
> Andy
>
> _____
>
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of RJ
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:58 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Rolland ..
> I wondered about that ..
>
> I am also going to get a bottle of that
> peroxide / phosphoric acid mix at the beauty supply.
> Just to try it on a scrap board .. outside per chance there
> could be bad fumes .. lol just to see .. am curious ..
> and at 3.00 a bottle .. cant hurt .. I guess thats why I like ferrets ..
> allways curious about things .. and yes .. I heard what happened to that
> curious cat.
>
> Randy - N2CUA
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> , "Roland F. Harriston"
> <rolohar@> wrote:
> >
> > Javaguy:
> >
> > I think it works like: the peroxide "oxidizes" the copper, i.e.
> > decomposes it,
> > and the muriatic acid dissolves the decomposed copper.
> > I think the vinegar (acetic acid) would probably work, but it would
> > have to be a very strong vinegar. Household vinegar is about
> > 2 or 3 percent acid.
> >
> > Someone will certainly correct me if I am wrong.
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
> > *******************
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-10 by Dave Sage

Just had a thought. For you guys experimenting with all kinds of household
chemicals, I'm wondering if the peroxide could be substituted for one of the
supposed Oxygen generating washing additive powders like "Oxy Clean". It
might generate more oxygen than the Hydrogen peroxide. I find hydrogen
peroxide very volatile and even when kept in the bottle it's pretty much
useless after a few months or less. I test it by putting it on my skin. It's
also used to disinfect cuts and fizzes quite a bit it it's any good.

Anyway, I'd be interested for someone to try this idea and compare it to the
peroxide results.

Sage

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-10 by bebx2000

Sage,

Although it isn't one of your run-of-the-mill household products, try sodium perborate tetrahydrate. It (or one of the variants) is one of the ingredients in Oxy-clean. It is a stable, solid source of active oxygen prepared by reaction of sodium borate with hydrogen peroxide. When you dissolve it in water it releases back hydrogen peroxide; hence, it is a solid form of hydrogen peroxide. The monohydrate version yields about 32% hydrogen peroxide; tetrahydrate, about 15%. So all you do is mix up a saturated solution and you have fresh, high value hydrogen peroxide. Monohydrate goes into solution faster. My notes on this show that the commercial detergents contain only about 15% of sodium perborate by weight.

You can buy a 6lb. pail for $12.00 at

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Perborate-Sodium_Perborate_6lbs.html

A supplier on eBay also sells a 1lb.jar of lab grade for $9.00

Baxter

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Sage" <davesage12@...> wrote:
>
> Just had a thought. For you guys experimenting with all kinds of household
> chemicals, I'm wondering if the peroxide could be substituted for one of the
> supposed Oxygen generating washing additive powders like "Oxy Clean".

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-11 by javaguy11111

Interesting. From this site

http://catmacey.wordpress.com/projects/making-pcbs-with-simple-tools/etching-the-board/

it looks like sodium perborate tetrahydrate can be used with HCl/muriatic acid to etch boards as well. I sort of like this idea better than using HCl and H2O2.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "bebx2000" <bebx2000@...> wrote:
> Sage,
>
> Although it isn't one of your run-of-the-mill household products, try sodium perborate tetrahydrate. It (or one of the variants) is one of the ingredients in Oxy-clean. It is a stable, solid source of active oxygen prepared by reaction of sodium borate with hydrogen peroxide. When you dissolve it in water it releases back hydrogen peroxide; hence, it is a solid form of hydrogen peroxide. The monohydrate version yields about 32% hydrogen peroxide; tetrahydrate, about 15%. So all you do is mix up a saturated solution and you have fresh, high value hydrogen peroxide. Monohydrate goes into solution faster. My notes on this show that the commercial detergents contain only about 15% of sodium perborate by weight.
>
> You can buy a 6lb. pail for $12.00 at
>
> http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Perborate-Sodium_Perborate_6lbs.html
>
> A supplier on eBay also sells a 1lb.jar of lab grade for $9.00
>
> Baxter
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Sage" <davesage12@> wrote:
> >
> > Just had a thought. For you guys experimenting with all kinds of household
> > chemicals, I'm wondering if the peroxide could be substituted for one of the
> > supposed Oxygen generating washing additive powders like "Oxy Clean".
>

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-11 by bebx2000

That site put me on the trail of sodium perborate. It is unclear how he is using it. If you want hydrogen peroxide then you need to dissolve it in water. The crystals are a source of active oxygen so maybe this is all you need with the acid. I never really followed up on this. I am using the Edinburgh etch version of ferric chloride for my boards.

Baxter

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "javaguy11111" <javaguy11111@...> wrote:
>
> Interesting. From this site
>
> http://catmacey.wordpress.com/projects/making-pcbs-with-simple-tools/etching-the-board/
>
> it looks like sodium perborate tetrahydrate can be used with HCl/muriatic acid to etch boards as well. I sort of like this idea better than using HCl and H2O2.

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-11 by Matt Casey

Hi.

I'm Catmacey (Matt Casey) the author of the site mentioned in bebx2000's post.

The chemicals I used to etch boards are the standard off-the-shelf choice here in Barcelona (Spain), the manufacturer Repro Ciruit are based here too. Their catalogue is here http://www.reprocircuit.com/00-archivos/catalogo/fraccionado1_15.pdf but has no additional info...

Most of the eletronics stores here in the city carry the same brand alongside ferricchloride.
I'm not certain of the exact composition stengths or the chemical process involved. I just know that it works. You get a litre bottle of the acid and a smaller tub of the perborate. The idea is to mix them in equal relative proportions eg. half the bottle of acid to half the tub of perborato. It's pretty tolorant of inaccurate proportions and will keep for a week or so in an airtight tub once mixed. I tend to make it up in small quantiies, just enough to do the occasional board or two. Then top it up with a bit more acid if it's not working fast enough.

Hope that's helpful

Matt Casey

Re: Vinegar, Salt, Peroxide Etching

2011-03-11 by RJ

Thanks Matt .. nice ..
Even though that document appears to be in spanish?
There are some nice proto board patterns at the end of it..
:) Not sure that was the intention .. but I wont argue LMAO.

Randy

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Casey" <matt@...> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm Catmacey (Matt Casey) the author of the site mentioned in bebx2000's post.
>
> The chemicals I used to etch boards are the standard off-the-shelf choice here in Barcelona (Spain), the manufacturer Repro Ciruit are based here too. Their catalogue is here http://www.reprocircuit.com/00-archivos/catalogo/fraccionado1_15.pdf but has no additional info...
>
> Most of the eletronics stores here in the city carry the same brand alongside ferricchloride.
> I'm not certain of the exact composition stengths or the chemical process involved. I just know that it works. You get a litre bottle of the acid and a smaller tub of the perborate. The idea is to mix them in equal relative proportions eg. half the bottle of acid to half the tub of perborato. It's pretty tolorant of inaccurate proportions and will keep for a week or so in an airtight tub once mixed. I tend to make it up in small quantiies, just enough to do the occasional board or two. Then top it up with a bit more acid if it's not working fast enough.
>
> Hope that's helpful
>
> Matt Casey
>