Homebrew PCBs

I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
instructions to make one?
Thanks for help me.

Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7??? wrote:
> I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
> Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
> instructions to make one?
> Thanks for help me.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO

"Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7???" <esp7xx@...> wrote:
I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
instructions to make one?
Thanks for help me.


AL FIn un castellano supongo
trabajo en un taller de electronica
con otro compa\ufffdero contruimos una maquinas cnc
para hacer pcb circuitos impresos
si te interesa escrivime por detalles
de la contrucion
saludos   daniel
daniel_cardona2003@...



\ufffd



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Informaci\ufffdn de Estados Unidos y Am\ufffdrica Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
Vis\ufffdtanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com

Check my homepage at http://members.home.nl/bzijlstra for steppermotordrivers.
Check Google and look for CNCkit

Bye
Ben Zijlstra




Original Message:
-----------------

From: esp7xx@...
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:24:29 -0000
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] HomeBrew CNC machine


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web.com™ - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com.

for what do you want your cnc machine?

if you want it only for drilling pcbs it can be less precise and mechanical 
stiff.
(drilling only needs vertical force).
some here (ncluding me) feel confident this can be made with simple and 
cheap "drawer slides" as rails
and stepper motors.

if you want to mill your boards (isolation milling) then you need a more 
stable machine.
when milling there are forces is all directions and it must be really 
precise.

i have seen some mills which use some sort of steel rails and 3 or more 
ball bearings (on each
bearing point) which roll on the rails. for driving the carriages i nearly 
only have seen allthreads.
(are there any timing belt machines out there). threaded rod and direct 
stepper motor drive works
if you somehow eliminate the play on metric (or other) threaded rods (two 
nuts counterloaded or split nut).


as spindle (this is the "power drill" which holds the bit)
you need a unit which has substantial bearings (for millig because of side 
force).
dremel has been used but shown often to be too flimsy. i suggest a proxxon 
ib/e or better.


but i would suggest to stay with chemical process.
i think it is possible with much less cost and work to get perfect boards 
made.
milling has some disadvantages.


please describe your problems with double sided boards more precise.
please tell us which chemicals/material you already have, there are a 
number
of ways to sucess and not only one special way.

(please also don't use "help me please" as subject, read the groups 
guideline)

please state the quantity of boards you need to make (also in the future).
further the quality (min track with) and if throughhole plated is required.


tell us which printer you have, if you already are able to make films.

also if you have acces to precoated pcb material, or liquid photoresist, or 
dry film (for lamination).

are your problems about aligning of the boards? what did you try until now?
don't be afraid to keep us reading some minutes with 2 written pages, the 
more we know
the better we can help and the faster you have perfect boards.

which etchant did you try?

you must understand, it is impossible to help you without telling us more 
details.

regards
stefan




On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 07:24:29 -0000, Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7??? 
<esp7xx@...> wrote:

> I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. Does anybody know any 
> webpage to get plans and instructions to make one?
> Thanks for help me.
>
>

I am working on a CNC machine, home made, slow work in progress.  I now
use a dremel with a flexy shaft extension.  Its hooked to a 5 1/4 floppy
disk drive head carriage assy.  I run the stepper up and down and it has
plenty of power to run the setup.  I put two hall effect sensors on the
side of the assy and it auto cycles the bit up and down.  That keeps the
cycle time (up and down) down.  The bit just comes out a little over top
of the board and waits for me to align the bed for the next hole.  Then
one push of a foot button and it auto cycles the bit.  I have a dollar
store laser pointer that pin points up the drill bit landing point.  I
had to add a collet, black cardboard hole punch with a pin prick in it,
to the inside of the pointer screw on lens.  It was not quite fine
enough of a laser dot.  Helps this blind guy allot.  I use SAA 1027s, no
longer made, I had 8 of them in a parts drawer.  Im sure any cmos
circuit with 500 ma worth of power would work.  It only needs direction,
stop, and clock.  So with all that working.  I move on to the bed X and
Y driver hardware and control software.   I would like to find a gw
basic program ready made or some program that could be patched or
modified by a rookie without allot of trouble if needed.  Also, DOS
based, if anyone has an idea here. Hope I don't end up writing my own,
but, Cheap is my standard.  And I only make a few boards a month for
personal use.

daniel cardona wrote:

>
> "Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7???" <esp7xx@...> wrote:
> I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine.
> Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and
> instructions to make one?
> Thanks for help me.
>
>
> AL FIn un castellano supongo
> trabajo en un taller de electronica
> con otro compañero contruimos una maquinas cnc
> para hacer pcb circuitos impresos
> si te interesa escrivime por detalles
> de la contrucion
> saludos   daniel
> daniel_cardona2003@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias.
> Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        ADVERTISEMENT
                            [Image]

>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please use English on the list.

Thanks,
Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, daniel cardona
<daniel_cardona2003@y...> wrote:

> 
> "Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7???" <esp7xx@y...> wrote:
> I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
> Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
> instructions to make one?
> Thanks for help me.
> 
> 
> AL FIn un castellano supongo
> trabajo en un taller de electronica
> con otro compañero contruimos una maquinas cnc
> para hacer pcb circuitos impresos
> si te interesa escrivime por detalles
> de la contrucion
> saludos   daniel
> daniel_cardona2003@y...

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 11:39:10 -0400, Don Perry <mojo@...> wrote:

> I am working on a CNC machine, home made, slow work in progress.  I now
> use a dremel with a flexy shaft extension.  Its hooked to a 5 1/4 floppy
> disk drive head carriage assy.  I run the stepper up and down and it has
> plenty of power to run the setup.  I put two hall effect sensors on the
> side of the assy and it auto cycles the bit up and down.  That keeps the
> cycle time (up and down) down.  The bit just comes out a little over top
> of the board and waits for me to align the bed for the next hole.  Then
> one push of a foot button and it auto cycles the bit.  I have a dollar
> store laser pointer that pin points up the drill bit landing point.  I
> had to add a collet, black cardboard hole punch with a pin prick in it,
> to the inside of the pointer screw on lens.  It was not quite fine
> enough of a laser dot.  Helps this blind guy allot.  I use SAA 1027s, no
> longer made, I had 8 of them in a parts drawer.  Im sure any cmos
> circuit with 500 ma worth of power would work.  It only needs direction,
> stop, and clock.  So with all that working.  I move on to the bed X and
> Y driver hardware and control software.   I would like to find a gw
> basic program ready made or some program that could be patched or
> modified by a rookie without allot of trouble if needed.  Also, DOS
> based, if anyone has an idea here. Hope I don't end up writing my own,
> but, Cheap is my standard.  And I only make a few boards a month for
> personal use.
>

hi don

which type of rails for x/y do you use?
i think you can't mill with this setup?

stefan

In a message dated 10/3/2003 2:25:05 AM Central Standard Time, 
esp7xx@... writes:

> Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and instructions to make one?   
> Thanks for help me.
> 

ESP:  Join this group, and ask same question there.  

 <A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO/">CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO</A>         Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, daniel cardona 
<daniel_cardona2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> "Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7???" <esp7xx@y...> wrote:
> I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
> Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
> instructions to make one?
> Thanks for help me.
> 
> 
> AL FIn un castellano supongo
> trabajo en un taller de electronica
> con otro compañero contruimos una maquinas cnc
> para hacer pcb circuitos impresos
> si te interesa escrivime por detalles
> de la contrucion
> saludos   daniel
> daniel_cardona2003@y...

Ihay omputercay umcercialnay ontrolcay isway unfay to orkway 
ithway.

Utbay isthay istlay isway inway Englishway.  Ancay ouyay ostpay 
ouryay exttay inway Englishway orfay usway azylay americansway ?

Ankthay ouyay.

Dave
(wondering if Pig Latin is more universal than English...?)

To translate, remove the ay, take the last letter an place it on the 
front of the word.

Ihay = Ih less ay and Ih reversed is Hi

(man, this is even less funny than I thought)

Can't remember the responses on this thread.  Here's a good place to
start, though:

	http://www.luberth.com/cstep/

I don't know what Luberth Dijkman reccommends for a spindle, but here's
another one that people have had good luck with:

	http://www.cnconabudget.com/PaulJonesPCBSpindle.html

If you're interested in building a CNC machine, do check with the
CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO list.  (I'm pretty sure this one has already been
mentioned.)  It's specifically for people who are building their own
machines.

Tom

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003, Dave Mucha wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, daniel cardona
> <daniel_cardona2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > "Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7???" <esp7xx@y...> wrote:
> > I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine.
> > Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and
> > instructions to make one?
> > Thanks for help me.
> >
> >
> > AL FIn un castellano supongo
> > trabajo en un taller de electronica
> > con otro compañero contruimos una maquinas cnc
> > para hacer pcb circuitos impresos
> > si te interesa escrivime por detalles
> > de la contrucion
> > saludos   daniel
> > daniel_cardona2003@y...
>
> Ihay omputercay umcercialnay ontrolcay isway unfay to orkway
> ithway.
>
> Utbay isthay istlay isway inway Englishway.  Ancay ouyay ostpay
> ouryay exttay inway Englishway orfay usway azylay americansway ?
>
> Ankthay ouyay.
>
> Dave
> (wondering if Pig Latin is more universal than English...?)
>
> To translate, remove the ay, take the last letter an place it on the
> front of the word.
>
> Ihay = Ih less ay and Ih reversed is Hi
>
> (man, this is even less funny than I thought)
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7???" 
<esp7xx@y...> wrote:
> I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
> Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
> instructions to make one?
> Thanks for help me.



www.hobbycnc.com     Just got the plans, have not had time to look 
at it just yet.

Ben

I order plans from www.kleinbauer.com  Some of the materials are a little hard to find surplus (window channel extrusion), but other than that, the plans are pretty decent and IMHO well worth the money even if you don't follow them.

Thanks
Ron

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7??? 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:24 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] HomeBrew CNC machine


  I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
  Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
  instructions to make one?
  Thanks for help me.


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron

The original poster comes from spain - as it can be seen on his e-mail
address. John on the other hand does NOT deliver his plans outside of
the US as he states in an unfriendly and offending way on his order
information page (see http://www.crankorgan.com/order.htm ). 

Don't get this wrong, not the fact that he is not willing to deliver
is offending - that's his right. The tone on this page combined with 
the unwilingness to even comunicate / substantiate why is what really
hurts. Then, the fact that John who is also a member of this e-mail
list suerly heard that it's offending, but did not changed a single
word there ever since, really narrows the interpretation as to what
his motivation is to a farily dark corner.

You may read out of the fact that there is this post from me how much
this page hurt people which don't originate from the US. I also
understand that you may think I'm over reacting here. If I would have
read my post before this happened to me personally I probably would
have thought that way too, well, fine, but think twice.

Markus

>I order plans from www.kleinbauer.com  Some of the materials are a little hard to find surplus (window channel extrusion), but other than that, the plans are pretty decent and IMHO well worth the money even if you don't follow them.
>
>Thanks
>Ron
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7??? 
>  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
>  Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:24 AM
>  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] HomeBrew CNC machine
>
>
>  I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
>  Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
>  instructions to make one?
>  Thanks for help me.
>
>
>        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>              ADVERTISEMENT
>             
>       
>       
>
>  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>

I would not buy his plans even if i could.
The hardest for me is not how to make it, but how to get the needed 
material.
The plans don't do the work for me.
Making some errors during development i something i risk, but i doubt i 
would be satisfied
with any plans. (you have to search for the specific parts then also...)


I think it is good possible to see from the pictures of his machines which 
principles he
uses, (e.g. which rail mechanism). For someone with a bit understanding
of mechanics there are no dimensiones etc. required.


Look he too uses the ball bearing on pipes/rods...
i located a big length of stainless pipe (maybe flag pole or similar)
at a relatives shed.. have to inspect for surface quality but if it is ok i 
am sure
i can get it..

another source for good rails is ebay..
at ebay.de (for markus....) there are always a lot of "linearf\ufffdhrungen".
often ground steel profiles with ball or roller beared carriages. no play.
also acme threads with ball-beared nuts ("kugelumlaufspindel") are sold..

it is not as cheap as pipes or steel profiles but a lot more precise.


I was thinking about the cnc for some time now, not really having time to 
build one
but gathering information..

i initially wanted to make a steady table with the spindle moving all three 
axis..
now i think it is easier to move the workpiece the one direction (x), the 
spindle y and z on a vertical mount (like seen on many designs, including 
kleinbauers).
Not sure what's better...
I want to use the machine not only for pcb making (and there maybe only for 
drilling)
so i have dome extra requirements.
if i make "ball bearing" slides (and not buy good oned from ebay) they need 
to be steel.
a ball bearing only conacts the rail on one small point (ok a lne with a 
flat rail).
if you use aluminium bearings and want to mill aluminium this may not be 
sturdy enough.
ball bearing rails have the disadvantage of small contact points. (i think 
because of this
on other tools like lathes/mills dovetails are preferred).

i have a lot of other ideas.. but i don't want to bore you...

feel free to discuss any part of pcb cnc mill construction (anyone..).

stefan

Hi Stefan

>I would not buy his plans even if i could.
>The hardest for me is not how to make it, but how to get the needed 
>material.
>The plans don't do the work for me.
>Making some errors during development i something i risk, but i doubt i 
>would be satisfied
>with any plans. (you have to search for the specific parts then also...)
>
>
>I think it is good possible to see from the pictures of his machines which 
>principles he
>uses, (e.g. which rail mechanism). For someone with a bit understanding
>of mechanics there are no dimensiones etc. required.
>
>
>Look he too uses the ball bearing on pipes/rods...
>i located a big length of stainless pipe (maybe flag pole or similar)
>at a relatives shed.. have to inspect for surface quality but if it is ok i 
>am sure
>i can get it..
>
>another source for good rails is ebay..
>at ebay.de (for markus....) there are always a lot of "linearführungen".
>often ground steel profiles with ball or roller beared carriages. no play.
>also acme threads with ball-beared nuts ("kugelumlaufspindel") are sold..

I already do have all materials I think I need for my machine and also
started construction. I had to cease working on it cause I'm held busy
job wise at the moment. I'm looking foreward to continue the work and
once there is a stage where I can take some picutres I will do so and
post a link to them here.

With regard to John's plans - they most likely will be worth the money
for those also able to organize the parts. He's concept for the
machines seems ok for hobby use from what one can see on the pcitures.
I do agree though that the value of plans is more than questionable if
the parts shown there can't be bought easily. This is of course true
for all these kind of plans. Especially for those that want to build
such a machin "on the cheap" it's very important that they can be
flexible with what parts they use. However, this flexibility actually
then destroys the value of a plan...

>it is not as cheap as pipes or steel profiles but a lot more precise.
>
>
>I was thinking about the cnc for some time now, not really having time to 
>build one
>but gathering information..
>
>i initially wanted to make a steady table with the spindle moving all three 
>axis..
>now i think it is easier to move the workpiece the one direction (x), the 
>spindle y and z on a vertical mount (like seen on many designs, including 
>kleinbauers).
>Not sure what's better...

I also will do it like this. I.e. a moving x direction and a stand
with y and z mounted to it. IMHO this is is the simplest aproach also
giving a fairly stable result. I will only used threaded rods that
drive a plastic nut. Surely enough precise and stable for the purpose
of my machine (drilling only).

>I want to use the machine not only for pcb making (and there maybe only for 
>drilling)
>so i have dome extra requirements.

Mine will be restricted to drilling only. That's what I need most at
the moment - well, it's the only need I had so far. Based on the
experience made and provided the need arises here I then may build
another machine for milling.

>if i make "ball bearing" slides (and not buy good oned from ebay) they need 
>to be steel.
>a ball bearing only conacts the rail on one small point (ok a lne with a 
>flat rail).
>if you use aluminium bearings and want to mill aluminium this may not be 
>sturdy enough.
>ball bearing rails have the disadvantage of small contact points. (i think 
>because of this
>on other tools like lathes/mills dovetails are preferred).

My (drilling only) machine will be equiped with those special
drawerslides I mentioned earlyer. They have no play at all, are stable
in all directions (as oposed to standard drawer slides) but of course
have a limitted stiffness because they are just drawer slides. Again,
for the sole purpose of drilling PCB's they are perfect. I'm also sure
that they are sufficient for light milling jobs like wood or plastics
etc. Experience will show.

>i have a lot of other ideas.. but i don't want to bore you...

Instead of using a redy made drill for the motor (I.e. proxxon) I will
build one on my own based on a cheap electro motor as it's used for RC
racing cars. This motor delivers a high enough RPM and torque. An
extra spindle made of a silver steel rod then will be centerd / held
with ball bearings and the motor is then driving this spindle over a
cardan. Like this the motor can be mounted in a way to avoid
virbrations being transported to the machine frame thereby reducing
noise. The home made spindle will be threaded on it's end so as the
Proxxon keyless chuck can be monted to it.

So far the materials I bought are way below $100 - including the
stepper motors bought from e-bay. I will most likely also build my own
controller cirquit cause I don't intend to use a DOS based PC but a
microcontroller for controlling the machine. The drill / mill data
then will be transfered to the machine over a standard ethernet
connection. I happen to have a working single computer network enabled
design I made for another purpose that should be up to the task to
form the base of this controller unit. The machine then can be
controlled using a built in webserver. The costs for the controller
therefore are also within strict limits - I don't expect them to raise
above $80.

Markus

nice to hear there is some progress.

you want to use a 540 motor i guess.
i can only suggest to go for a 600 size instead.
those 540 size is only used because of limitations by club/ racing 
guidelines for cars.

I suggest using the jamara venti series. these motors cost maybe 20% more 
(so 12 eur instead of 10 at expensive model parts shop) but have a built in 
fan. they really run very cool with that fan inside (think about it....).
there are new high speed series from jamara which go up to nice 20krpm 
drilling speeds.
the 600 size costs the same and is much more efficient because of longer 
magnets and rotor.

the idea with the own spindle is good, i saw a nice one on the web (sorry 
hav no url).
the guy used two counterloared bearings and got much better results than 
with a dremel (because
of which there was the need for a new spindle).

i saw the own spindle coupled with a piece of compressor airhose.
i would prefer that over a "metal" cardan. better for high speed i think.

(addition to the usefulness of plans: here in europe it may be much harder 
to get
the needed items, so it makes additional sense to not sell it here)


the non-moving table has the following advantages:
you can rise/lower it more easy to take thicker parts (objects to mill one 
side).
you can try other milling methods like edm and similar stuff.

i see with drawer slides there is much advantage in mounting with a moving 
workpiece setup (in one directon).
but with the pipes/bearings ther is not so much advantage left (they can 
support themselves etc...).

i am still not sure which way to go...

your control setup sounds very interesting, but maybe a bit too complicated 
for me.
(i hoped there are free dos based tools for parallel port drive available)

have you done software research? what is available?
i will check today - ignored the software until now totally....

regards
stefan

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:27:35 +0200, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@...> wrote:

> Hi Stefan
>
>> I would not buy his plans even if i could.
>> The hardest for me is not how to make it, but how to get the needed 
>> material.
>> The plans don't do the work for me.
>> Making some errors during development i something i risk, but i doubt i 
>> would be satisfied
>> with any plans. (you have to search for the specific parts then also...)
>>
>>
>> I think it is good possible to see from the pictures of his machines 
>> which principles he
>> uses, (e.g. which rail mechanism). For someone with a bit understanding
>> of mechanics there are no dimensiones etc. required.
>>
>>
>> Look he too uses the ball bearing on pipes/rods...
>> i located a big length of stainless pipe (maybe flag pole or similar)
>> at a relatives shed.. have to inspect for surface quality but if it is 
>> ok i am sure
>> i can get it..
>>
>> another source for good rails is ebay..
>> at ebay.de (for markus....) there are always a lot of "linearf\ufffdhrungen".
>> often ground steel profiles with ball or roller beared carriages. no 
>> play.
>> also acme threads with ball-beared nuts ("kugelumlaufspindel") are 
>> sold..
>
> I already do have all materials I think I need for my machine and also
> started construction. I had to cease working on it cause I'm held busy
> job wise at the moment. I'm looking foreward to continue the work and
> once there is a stage where I can take some picutres I will do so and
> post a link to them here.
>
> With regard to John's plans - they most likely will be worth the money
> for those also able to organize the parts. He's concept for the
> machines seems ok for hobby use from what one can see on the pcitures.
> I do agree though that the value of plans is more than questionable if
> the parts shown there can't be bought easily. This is of course true
> for all these kind of plans. Especially for those that want to build
> such a machin "on the cheap" it's very important that they can be
> flexible with what parts they use. However, this flexibility actually
> then destroys the value of a plan...
>
>> it is not as cheap as pipes or steel profiles but a lot more precise.
>>
>>
>> I was thinking about the cnc for some time now, not really having time 
>> to build one
>> but gathering information..
>>
>> i initially wanted to make a steady table with the spindle moving all 
>> three axis..
>> now i think it is easier to move the workpiece the one direction (x), 
>> the spindle y and z on a vertical mount (like seen on many designs, 
>> including kleinbauers).
>> Not sure what's better...
>
> I also will do it like this. I.e. a moving x direction and a stand
> with y and z mounted to it. IMHO this is is the simplest aproach also
> giving a fairly stable result. I will only used threaded rods that
> drive a plastic nut. Surely enough precise and stable for the purpose
> of my machine (drilling only).
>
>> I want to use the machine not only for pcb making (and there maybe only 
>> for drilling)
>> so i have dome extra requirements.
>
> Mine will be restricted to drilling only. That's what I need most at
> the moment - well, it's the only need I had so far. Based on the
> experience made and provided the need arises here I then may build
> another machine for milling.
>
>> if i make "ball bearing" slides (and not buy good oned from ebay) they 
>> need to be steel.
>> a ball bearing only conacts the rail on one small point (ok a lne with a 
>> flat rail).
>> if you use aluminium bearings and want to mill aluminium this may not be 
>> sturdy enough.
>> ball bearing rails have the disadvantage of small contact points. (i 
>> think because of this
>> on other tools like lathes/mills dovetails are preferred).
>
> My (drilling only) machine will be equiped with those special
> drawerslides I mentioned earlyer. They have no play at all, are stable
> in all directions (as oposed to standard drawer slides) but of course
> have a limitted stiffness because they are just drawer slides. Again,
> for the sole purpose of drilling PCB's they are perfect. I'm also sure
> that they are sufficient for light milling jobs like wood or plastics
> etc. Experience will show.
>
>> i have a lot of other ideas.. but i don't want to bore you...
>
> Instead of using a redy made drill for the motor (I.e. proxxon) I will
> build one on my own based on a cheap electro motor as it's used for RC
> racing cars. This motor delivers a high enough RPM and torque. An
> extra spindle made of a silver steel rod then will be centerd / held
> with ball bearings and the motor is then driving this spindle over a
> cardan. Like this the motor can be mounted in a way to avoid
> virbrations being transported to the machine frame thereby reducing
> noise. The home made spindle will be threaded on it's end so as the
> Proxxon keyless chuck can be monted to it.
>
> So far the materials I bought are way below $100 - including the
> stepper motors bought from e-bay. I will most likely also build my own
> controller cirquit cause I don't intend to use a DOS based PC but a
> microcontroller for controlling the machine. The drill / mill data
> then will be transfered to the machine over a standard ethernet
> connection. I happen to have a working single computer network enabled
> design I made for another purpose that should be up to the task to
> form the base of this controller unit. The machine then can be
> controlled using a built in webserver. The costs for the controller
> therefore are also within strict limits - I don't expect them to raise
> above $80.
>
> Markus
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:48:56 +0200, you wrote:

>nice to hear there is some progress.
>
>you want to use a 540 motor i guess.
>i can only suggest to go for a 600 size instead.
>those 540 size is only used because of limitations by club/ racing 
>guidelines for cars.
>
>I suggest using the jamara venti series. these motors cost maybe 20% more 
>(so 12 eur instead of 10 at expensive model parts shop) but have a built in 
>fan. they really run very cool with that fan inside (think about it....).
>there are new high speed series from jamara which go up to nice 20krpm 
>drilling speeds.
>the 600 size costs the same and is much more efficient because of longer 
>magnets and rotor.

Looks like RC cars are your hobby then :) 

>the idea with the own spindle is good, i saw a nice one on the web (sorry 
>hav no url).
>the guy used two counterloared bearings and got much better results than 
>with a dremel (because
>of which there was the need for a new spindle).

I don't know if the results will be better, but do expect it so. My
main motivation was to build the absolutely cheapest cnc drilling
machine possible and a dremel or proxxon tool would just have raised
the costs dramatically. It's not that I would not spend the money for
one of those. I simply wanted to see how cheap I can end with
something still working usefull.

>i saw the own spindle coupled with a piece of compressor airhose.
>i would prefer that over a "metal" cardan. better for high speed i think.
>
>(addition to the usefulness of plans: here in europe it may be much harder 
>to get
>the needed items, so it makes additional sense to not sell it here)
>
>
>the non-moving table has the following advantages:
>you can rise/lower it more easy to take thicker parts (objects to mill one 
>side).
>you can try other milling methods like edm and similar stuff.
>
>i see with drawer slides there is much advantage in mounting with a moving 
>workpiece setup (in one directon).
>but with the pipes/bearings ther is not so much advantage left (they can 
>support themselves etc...).
>
>i am still not sure which way to go...
>
>your control setup sounds very interesting, but maybe a bit too complicated 
>for me.
>(i hoped there are free dos based tools for parallel port drive available)
>
>have you done software research? what is available?
>i will check today - ignored the software until now totally....

Main main profession is writing software. I do this now for over 20
years and have (among obviousely many many other things) developed all
the firmware for the single board computer mentioned including a
complete TCP/IP protocol suite, HTTP server etc. etc. There is also a
lot of information around on the web when it comes to controlling
steppers. So, what I'm trying to tell is that I'm going to write my
own software. That's mostly for the fun of it and nothing more. I
surely will present at least the machine part of my work on a
dedicated webpage once I'm there. I'm not in a hurry though.

With regard to software that controls the lpt port of a DOS machine, I
heard that "PC NC" is having a good reputation. There are plenty of
other sources around too.

Markus

well, rc cars are boring..
i more like it 3D (electric rc flight).
But we use the same motors... (nearly).

You know i bought the proxxon IB/E and it was expensive, but worth the 
money...
I will use it when i actually get to building. I plan to mill aluminium and 
plastic too so
i might one day buy a bigger machine which also takes thicker shafts.
But i don't regret buying the proxxon, it is much better than the cheap 
"dremel clones" i had.
I use it very often.
you can really use the cutting wheels with it (for cutting, not only 
breaking them apart)...

there is a page with ready made software if you need it..
http://www.rcmodels.net/cnc/soft/soft.html

st

Markus,
Thanks for pointing that out. I guess it never occured to me that the plan weren't available world wide. As one who has done a lot of international business, I sort of take things for granted that everyone does. My apologies for not catching the source of the email and checking the kleinbauer website for details. This is something I will start doing.

As far as a DIY machine, I'm still debating whether to follow John's lead and search out window channel, or to scrap a couple wide carriage printers and use the linear bearing and slide arrangement. Considering how abrasive FR4 is, I'm not sure which would hold up better, but I'm thinking the plastic guides on window channel may be the best as the surface area is much greater.

If I were to build a machine for heavy duty 3D use, rather than just drilling, I would probably use dovetails with a ball screw drive system. However sourcing the parts surplus could take quite a while.
Ron

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:24:16 +0200, you wrote:

>well, rc cars are boring..
>i more like it 3D (electric rc flight).
>But we use the same motors... (nearly).

We have something in comon then - although I used (must say used due
to lack of time) to fly electrically powered RC helicopters. It's much
fun - but again did not had (or took?) the time for years now.

>You know i bought the proxxon IB/E and it was expensive, but worth the 
>money...
>I will use it when i actually get to building. I plan to mill aluminium and 
>plastic too so
>i might one day buy a bigger machine which also takes thicker shafts.
>But i don't regret buying the proxxon, it is much better than the cheap 
>"dremel clones" i had.
>I use it very often.

No single word against those proxxons. I have one myself but use it
for different purposes. Again, I decided to take the aproach of having
an as cheap as possilbe CNC drill only machine for the sole purpose of
drilling PCB's. Under that aspect, mounting a Proxxon onto it would be
a real waste.

>you can really use the cutting wheels with it (for cutting, not only 
>breaking them apart)...
>
>there is a page with ready made software if you need it..
>http://www.rcmodels.net/cnc/soft/soft.html

Nice link 

Markus

@markus:
i fear helis are to expensive for me (now)
would love to have one (some day)


the rails:
the fr4 is really very abrasive, you can use the edge of a board as a fine 
file.

i think printer rails are not sturdy enough.
i store the rails from two similar printers (actually only the size is 
different, one was a4 and one a3).
thought i would use it some day..

the rails are 12mm steel (not hardened, easy to cut a thread on).
the carriages are cast aluminium with bronze (or similar) sliding bearing.
the bearings have a bit of play.
i fear those rails won't hold up in fr4 drilling dust (maybe a hoover can 
remove it before it hits the bearings).
one is already a bit scratched (from long years use) and also has much more 
play.
i gave up on using these already (in the moment they are a cd stand - the 
12mm hole fits exactly the rods).

also 12mm would be to thin (without additional support) to make ways for a, 
lets say a4 size, mill...

most industrial rails have a wiper for the ways mount on the carriage.
this helps a bit to prevent dirt coming into it.

i would suggest putting the rails high enough to keep most material below 
them.

if there is no other way it may be possible to protect all ways with a 
cover, i saw this on a grinding machine for
hard tools and it seems to work. but i think this will show up during 
useage if needed.

On the other hand the ball bearing method is better for abrasive dust.
imagine a piece of glass fiber coming into a bronze sleeve.. it may stay 
there and be dragged along the whole
way. but if you have a rolling ball bearing on a flat surface the glass 
fiber piece might just be run over.
and the bearings itself are so dirt cheap you can replace them often (they 
are sealed and made for road dust/sand and
will never need replacement).

stefan

FIRST 

Would you guys kindly TRIM YOUR POSTS !

I've been trying to follow this thread but it is really messy !

end of rant.


SECOND, if you respond to this, please change the subject line to 
PCB-CNC Design


how many of you guys really want a CNC PCB machine ?


The requirements for a PCB routing machine are much higher than a PCB 
drilling machine.

and if you have seen a PCB routing/milling machine you would consider 
chemical etching as the best way and routing as a poor second choice.

If you guys are serious about a design, there are enough sources on 
the web to put together a competent design.

also with the recent notes on drilling, the drilling part should be 
easy.

If I were to start out on a really cheap design with easy to get 
materials, I would look at the PCB Driller as the goal, more so than 
the PCB Miller.


Next question is "do we want to keep it on this group ?"

This list is not for CNC machine design, so the moderator would need 
to want to keep it here.

Dave

[snip]
>SECOND, if you respond to this, please change the subject line to 
>PCB-CNC Design
ok, done
[snip]
>Next question is "do we want to keep it on this group ?"
If Im allowed to add my 2¢ - I would apreciate it. This is the
Homebrew_PCB group. I followed the other often metioned group a while,
but they go very much furhter than what I think most people on this
list are interested in (CNC PCB drilling and milling for home/hobby
use). Then the traffic there with very specialliced threads about
things most of us not even ever heard of makes it hard for simple /
newbee questions to "survive". Another big obstacle there (IMHO) is
the strict moderation where a new poster sometimes must wait several
days unilt his post is even apearing. So yes, IMHO I think this IS on
topic here as long as the main target to use/build such a machine is
drilling / milling PCB's

Don't get me wrong, the EDO_DRO yada yady group is cool. I learned
some interesting stuff there but IMHO a little overkill for the just
outlined purpose.

Btw, I fully agree with you that milling PCB's is messy and much more
of a hazzle than the chemical aproach. Probably a matter of taste
though.

>This list is not for CNC machine design, so the moderator would need 
>to want to keep it here.

Of course just my 2¢ Steve?

Markus

> >Next question is "do we want to keep it on this group ?"
> If Im allowed to add my 2¢ - I would apreciate it. This is the
> Homebrew_PCB group. I followed the other often metioned group a 
while,
> but they go very much furhter than what I think most people on this
> list are interested in (CNC PCB drilling and milling for home/hobby
> use). Then the traffic there with very specialliced threads about
> things most of us not even ever heard of makes it hard for simple /
> newbee questions to "survive". Another big obstacle there (IMHO) is
> the strict moderation where a new poster sometimes must wait several
> days unilt his post is even apearing. 


I agree.  the CCED list is GREAT for lots of stuff, but pcb guys are 
lost in the sea of technical stuff over there.

I hope machine design does not get lost over here or dominate the 
list.

I did create a new list, pending the decisons of this list.

my first post there contains;

"PCB people have typically taken a pragmatic approach to making PCB 
Board, chemical etching to get the copper layers as needed.
But find it a PITA to drill all those holes.
CNC people find buying the drivers easier than designing and making 
circuit boards so are not often as interested in PCB making.


*IF* CNC and machine design if too OT then I'll announce the other 
group.


Dave

I'm of the same opinion as markus.

the edm,DRO, etc. group is too far away from where i am.
I read in their archives but there are a lot of very specialized things.
we discussed if we need pcb cnc here.
the result was steve said as long as for pcb making it is ok. (if i 
remember correct)

i want it only for drilling pcbs, i don't like the milling... i am sure a 
chemical process is superior.

But i want to build a sturdy machine, because i do not want to make two, 
for aluminium milling and such things.

so please, everybody interested in cnc mill making, write down what you 
plan.
So we see what makes sense to discuss because similar and what is so 
different
in requirement that it is not useful for the others.

I want a machine for drilling pcbs, but milling other materials.
Thus it must be sturdier than a drilling-only machine.
I want the option to add a depth guide for milling in the future.
It needs to be strong enough to carry even a heavier spindle when i need.
Size should be about A3, like a small Photocopier would be just right.
(workable area smaller, about a4 or 30x30 (cm).)

st

Remember we started this over again not by ourselves.
there was someone asking for "i want to know about pcb cnc mill making".

i would use your list, if steve thinks it may get too far OT here and if 
there are others interested in building one.
i mean, to discuss my ideas with markus i can use email.....
so please everybody still interested write which mill type you want.

st

>
> I did create a new list, pending the decisons of this list.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>

Stefan wrote -
Remember we started this over again not by ourselves.
there was someone asking for "i want to know about pcb cnc mill making".

OK, how about this: does anyone in California know of a masking product I
can get here for chemical etching? I have the Chicken Shak (oops - Radio
Shak) kit, but I am using sheet brass and have had no luck with the
transferring of toner from a laser print-out. Unfortunately, I can't find a
California-friendly product to coat the brass to make a developed mask from
an overhead printout.
Thanks
Bert

>Remember we started this over again not by ourselves.
>there was someone asking for "i want to know about pcb cnc mill making".
>
>i would use your list, if steve thinks it may get too far OT here and if 
>there are others interested in building one.
>i mean, to discuss my ideas with markus i can use email.....

I'm sure others are reading along. Remember, the point in time at
which one decides to buy/build a CNC drilling machine obviouseyl
differes. So, there are surely people in the "ideas collecting" phase
reading what we do here.

>so please everybody still interested write which mill type you want.

Don't get impatient. Remember, there are parts in the world where it's
right now still sunday morning. It's clear that we often exchange
mails here cause at the time we do many other members (mostly the
fellows from the US) lay in their beds.

Markus

> OK, how about this: does anyone in California know of a masking 
product I
> can get here for chemical etching? I have the Chicken Shak (oops - 
Radio
> Shak) kit, but I am using sheet brass and have had no luck with the
> transferring of toner from a laser print-out. Unfortunately, I 
can't find a
> California-friendly product to coat the brass to make a developed 
mask from
> an overhead printout.
> Thanks
> Bert

Sounds like you are looking for a beter toner transfer method ?

From my experiances, a totally clean surface is a must as it a decent 
medium for the toner.

really shinny magazine pages are clay based and seemed to work will 
for some of my feeble attempts.

Dave

Hi Dave

>I agree.  the CCED list is GREAT for lots of stuff, but pcb guys are 
>lost in the sea of technical stuff over there.
>
>I hope machine design does not get lost over here or dominate the 
>list.
>
>I did create a new list, pending the decisons of this list.
>
>my first post there contains;
>
>"PCB people have typically taken a pragmatic approach to making PCB 
>Board, chemical etching to get the copper layers as needed.
>But find it a PITA to drill all those holes.
>CNC people find buying the drivers easier than designing and making 
>circuit boards so are not often as interested in PCB making.
>
>
>*IF* CNC and machine design if too OT then I'll announce the other 
>group.

There is in genereal nothing I have against such a list and I of
course apreciate your effort. However, I'm not sure if it's really
needed or such a happy decision. Remember, the topic IS PCB related
and many people udoublty will start reading here - and be glad that
this part can be covered here also, sneaking in messages at the point
in time they are not that far yet, thereby hearing this and that to
make up their mind later on. So if we have another list, it either
would make sense to anounce it here every now or then, or we then
better leave it. Personally I think though it would be better to have
these topics coverd here also. Again, I will be happy to join if the
majority here (or more specifically Steve) sees this different.

Markus

> Don't get impatient. Remember, there are parts in the world where 
it's
> right now still sunday morning. It's clear that we often exchange
> mails here cause at the time we do many other members (mostly the
> fellows from the US) lay in their beds.
> 
> Markus

Exactly.  If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well.


I was thinking that in depth discussion of machine design would be 
off topic for this group, and drounded out in the CCED one.


My "Simple PCB-CNC" (I may use that for a plans set one day) would be 
designed around that basic premise that one cannot easily afford or 
find linear rails and ball screws.


Wood is fine for the base, steel rails can be as 'high tech' as drill 
rod or silver steel, depending on which side of the pond you are on.

some sort of plastic, pvc, UHMW or something.

a ridgid frame that is simple to build with easily found materials.

I'm thinking one could use 2x4 lumber for the majority of the project.

The only hard part is the drilling action.   Anyone know how far a 
car door electric unlocker solenoid moves ?

Dave

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:34:26 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:

>> OK, how about this: does anyone in California know of a masking
> product I
>> can get here for chemical etching? I have the Chicken Shak (oops -
> Radio
>> Shak) kit, but I am using sheet brass and have had no luck with the
>> transferring of toner from a laser print-out. Unfortunately, I
> can't find a
>> California-friendly product to coat the brass to make a developed
> mask from
>> an overhead printout.
>> Thanks
>> Bert
>
> Sounds like you are looking for a beter toner transfer method ?
>
> From my experiances, a totally clean surface is a must as it a decent 
> medium for the toner.
>
> really shinny magazine pages are clay based and seemed to work will for 
> some of my feeble attempts.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>

Why don't you spray on photoresist and expose it just like a pcb?
I too didn't manage to get a good toner transfer.
The photoprocess sounds more complicated than it really is.

You print your mask design to a ohp transparency (as dense as possible).
Then you apply either liquid photoresist or dry film on the brass.
liquid resist is sold in ready-made spray cans, just apply like spray 
paint.
(in a no-sunlight room, avoid dust).

After drying you expose the whole thing (fix ohp film with tape or similar 
to workpiece).
you can use sunlight here, different kinds of light bulbs also.
(time depends on light source).

to get your mask you have to develop the whole thing, there are lots of 
developers, your
chicken shak has it. developing only means putting the thing in the 
soultion and waiting until
all exposed parts are gone.


I don't know which brand photoresist is sold in your region, but worst case 
it is available
mail order. all you need it the spray can of resist, any developer, and 
some ohp transparencys (get a good brand).

i managed to get the photoprocess right(useable) with the second try when i 
started.
it sound difficult but the results are guaranted.


this resist should withstand most etchants - what do you use?

st

> 
> Why don't you spray on photoresist and expose it just like a pcb?
> I too didn't manage to get a good toner transfer.
> The photoprocess sounds more complicated than it really is.
> 
> You print your mask design to a ohp transparency (as dense as 
possible).


This is where I 
888888888888888888888888888888888                              jhn

Sorry, cat walked on the keyboard....

This is where I was having a problem.  My CAD program prints lines.  
tiny lines, maybe 10-20 to make a thick line.  and my printer wants 
to try to sperate those into disticnt lines when they are really a 
line.   '---' would possibley be 5-10 lines for my CAD to printer.

But, printing to an ADOBE ACROBAT file, ADOBE makes one SOLID line 
and that prints solid.

Dave

>> You print your mask design to a ohp transparency (as dense as
> possible).
>
>

>
> This is where I was having a problem.  My CAD program prints lines.  tiny 
> lines, maybe 10-20 to make a thick line.  and my printer wants to try to 
> sperate those into disticnt lines when they are really a line.   '---' 
> would possibley be 5-10 lines for my CAD to printer.
>
> But, printing to an ADOBE ACROBAT file, ADOBE makes one SOLID line and 
> that prints solid.
>
> Dave
>
>

i know, what you see is never what you get..

believe me i have experienced this "damn cad what are you doing" and "hmm 
works with pdf".

which printer do you use?
maybe try making post script and printing that, if more convenient than 
pdf...

look in your cad for options how it makes filled objects.
sometimes you can choose between filled, outline, etc.

i think another problem is raster/vector differemces.
my cad works fine on raster printing but is crazy if you try vector 
output...

st

Markus Zingg,
             There is a reason I only ship to the US and Canada. I 
post the info in an offending mannor because people in other 
countries kept sending me money anyway. Less postage etc etc etc! I 
used to sell to other countries. It became such a problem I stopped. 
The parts I use are only found in US and Canada. Other countries use 
metric bolts. This throws the design way off! Then they want me to 
send them the aluminum channel. Here you can buy it as scrap! To send 
it overseas it becomes expensive.  

                                          John Kleinbauer







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> Ron
> 
> The original poster comes from spain - as it can be seen on his e-
mail
> address. John on the other hand does NOT deliver his plans outside 
of
> the US as he states in an unfriendly and offending way on his order
> information page (see http://www.crankorgan.com/order.htm ). 
> 
> Don't get this wrong, not the fact that he is not willing to deliver
> is offending - that's his right. The tone on this page combined 
with 
> the unwilingness to even comunicate / substantiate why is what 
really
> hurts. Then, the fact that John who is also a member of this e-mail
> list suerly heard that it's offending, but did not changed a single
> word there ever since, really narrows the interpretation as to what
> his motivation is to a farily dark corner.
> 
> You may read out of the fact that there is this post from me how 
much
> this page hurt people which don't originate from the US. I also
> understand that you may think I'm over reacting here. If I would 
have
> read my post before this happened to me personally I probably would
> have thought that way too, well, fine, but think twice.
> 
> Markus
> 
> >I order plans from www.kleinbauer.com  Some of the materials are a 
little hard to find surplus (window channel extrusion), but other 
than that, the plans are pretty decent and IMHO well worth the money 
even if you don't follow them.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Ron
> >  ----- Original Message ----- 
> >  From: Juan 30.SA.146 // EA7??? 
> >  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> >  Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 2:24 AM
> >  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] HomeBrew CNC machine
> >
> >
> >  I'm so interested in make a homebrew CNC machine. 
> >  Does anybody know any webpage to get plans and 
> >  instructions to make one?
> >  Thanks for help me.
> >
> >
> >        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
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> >             
> >       
> >       
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> > 
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> >

Dear John

First off, let me thank you for you response. I really very much
apreciate it. 

I'm very glad to hear that you aparently have good reasons why you are
not shipping over seas. 

I also have no problem with the fact that you don't want to deliver
materials etc. All this is perfectly understandable. I still strongly
suggest that you think about the wording on this page.

I don't really intend to tell you how to do business (you see, I DID
read your pages :)) ) but how about telling that

a) the plans are strictly non metric and centered around parts that
are NOT available overseas?
b) clearly stating that its' not your idea of live to go shop and ship
ANY parts anywhere, that you are striclty producing plans and that you
do not intend to give advice or whatsoever support to solve problems
that arise from people using your plans in foreign countries.
c) that you - if someone just want's to get ideas - of course ship
plans overseas, but need cash in a letter in advance and add say $50
shipping and handling charges (or whatever is enough to serve as a
motivation) and that sendign a letter with the money is at their risk?

By doing so nobody would have to feel being treated like a second
class member of this planet - and hence nobody would have to feel
offended. What I'm trying to say is - there does not even have to be a
way to still get plans, but I think you could be strict and clear in a
less offending fashion and hey, if someone really want's to throw say
100$ or more at you just to get such plans - it would be his decision
right?

In this sense, let me also tell you that I otherwise have no single
problem with anything you do / did stated or whatever. Moreover I
really honestly apreciate your work in the area of "CNC on the cheap".
If you carefully would have read my posts here in the past you could
see that I recomended your plans to people living in the US dispite
this experience.

It's just a matter of fact that I was really deeply shoked and hurt by
this page. Back then I was almost not able to think about anything
else for about three days. I figure this is not what you intended. I
was personally more than surprized about this very strong reaction on
my end but could not help it. To me this had the impact of a rasism
motivated act and such a thing never before hapened to me in my life.

Again, thanks for your reply and time. I surely will check your page
every now and then and I'm sure I will be very happy the day I see a
positive change. It really does not have to be your disadvantage if
you choose a better wording there but a win for all of us.

Markus

>Markus Zingg,
>             There is a reason I only ship to the US and Canada. I 
>post the info in an offending mannor because people in other 
>countries kept sending me money anyway. Less postage etc etc etc! I 
>used to sell to other countries. It became such a problem I stopped. 
>The parts I use are only found in US and Canada. Other countries use 
>metric bolts. This throws the design way off! Then they want me to 
>send them the aluminum channel. Here you can buy it as scrap! To send 
>it overseas it becomes expensive.  
>
>                                          John Kleinbauer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
>wrote:
>> Ron
>> 
>> The original poster comes from spain - as it can be seen on his e-
>mail
>> address. John on the other hand does NOT deliver his plans outside 
>of
>> the US as he states in an unfriendly and offending way on his order
>> information page (see http://www.crankorgan.com/order.htm ). 
>> 
>> Don't get this wrong, not the fact that he is not willing to deliver
>> is offending - that's his right. The tone on this page combined 
>with 
>> the unwilingness to even comunicate / substantiate why is what 
>really
>> hurts. Then, the fact that John who is also a member of this e-mail
>> list suerly heard that it's offending, but did not changed a single
>> word there ever since, really narrows the interpretation as to what
>> his motivation is to a farily dark corner.
>> 
>> You may read out of the fact that there is this post from me how 
>much
>> this page hurt people which don't originate from the US. I also
>> understand that you may think I'm over reacting here. If I would 
>have
>> read my post before this happened to me personally I probably would
>> have thought that way too, well, fine, but think twice.
>> 
>> Markus

Markus Zingg,
             When I was nice, nobody read my warnings! I won't go 
into the frauds I was exposed to. The moment I dropped foreign orders 
95% of my problems went away. Sorry if you felt hurt. I still get 
dozens of letters a week that start with. "I know your page says you 
don't sell to countries other than US and Canada." To those people my 
words are not hash enough. There is no solution because of Exchange 
rates-Parts and fake money orders. Then there is also the people who 
made copies of my plans. They tried to exchange them for Plastic and 
other items here in the US. My business has grown very large. I am a 
one man show. I only go with what works. I am no longer a hobby 
business.
             If you go back through the post here you will see I am 
willing to discuss Milling Circuit Boards or discuss machine design 
here. This is one of my hang outs. Hey Steve! Was that you at my door?
You did not list an Email address.

                               John 





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> Dear John
> 
> First off, let me thank you for you response. I really very much
> apreciate it. 
> 
> I'm very glad to hear that you aparently have good reasons why you 
are
> not shipping over seas. 
> 
> I also have no problem with the fact that you don't want to deliver
> materials etc. All this is perfectly understandable. I still 
strongly
> suggest that you think about the wording on this page.
> 
> I don't really intend to tell you how to do business (you see, I DID
> read your pages :)) ) but how about telling that
> 
> a) the plans are strictly non metric and centered around parts that
> are NOT available overseas?
> b) clearly stating that its' not your idea of live to go shop and 
ship
> ANY parts anywhere, that you are striclty producing plans and that 
you
> do not intend to give advice or whatsoever support to solve problems
> that arise from people using your plans in foreign countries.
> c) that you - if someone just want's to get ideas - of course ship
> plans overseas, but need cash in a letter in advance and add say $50
> shipping and handling charges (or whatever is enough to serve as a
> motivation) and that sendign a letter with the money is at their 
risk?
> 
> By doing so nobody would have to feel being treated like a second
> class member of this planet - and hence nobody would have to feel
> offended. What I'm trying to say is - there does not even have to 
be a
> way to still get plans, but I think you could be strict and clear 
in a
> less offending fashion and hey, if someone really want's to throw 
say
> 100$ or more at you just to get such plans - it would be his 
decision
> right?
> 
> In this sense, let me also tell you that I otherwise have no single
> problem with anything you do / did stated or whatever. Moreover I
> really honestly apreciate your work in the area of "CNC on the 
cheap".
> If you carefully would have read my posts here in the past you could
> see that I recomended your plans to people living in the US dispite
> this experience.
> 
> It's just a matter of fact that I was really deeply shoked and hurt 
by
> this page. Back then I was almost not able to think about anything
> else for about three days. I figure this is not what you intended. I
> was personally more than surprized about this very strong reaction 
on
> my end but could not help it. To me this had the impact of a rasism
> motivated act and such a thing never before hapened to me in my 
life.
> 
> Again, thanks for your reply and time. I surely will check your page
> every now and then and I'm sure I will be very happy the day I see a
> positive change. It really does not have to be your disadvantage if
> you choose a better wording there but a win for all of us.
> 
> Markus
> 
> >Markus Zingg,
> >             There is a reason I only ship to the US and Canada. I 
> >post the info in an offending mannor because people in other 
> >countries kept sending me money anyway. Less postage etc etc etc! 
I 
> >used to sell to other countries. It became such a problem I 
stopped. 
> >The parts I use are only found in US and Canada. Other countries 
use 
> >metric bolts. This throws the design way off! Then they want me to 
> >send them the aluminum channel. Here you can buy it as scrap! To 
send 
> >it overseas it becomes expensive.  
> >
> >                                          John Kleinbauer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
> >wrote:
> >> Ron
> >> 
> >> The original poster comes from spain - as it can be seen on his 
e-
> >mail
> >> address. John on the other hand does NOT deliver his plans 
outside 
> >of
> >> the US as he states in an unfriendly and offending way on his 
order
> >> information page (see http://www.crankorgan.com/order.htm ). 
> >> 
> >> Don't get this wrong, not the fact that he is not willing to 
deliver
> >> is offending - that's his right. The tone on this page combined 
> >with 
> >> the unwilingness to even comunicate / substantiate why is what 
> >really
> >> hurts. Then, the fact that John who is also a member of this e-
mail
> >> list suerly heard that it's offending, but did not changed a 
single
> >> word there ever since, really narrows the interpretation as to 
what
> >> his motivation is to a farily dark corner.
> >> 
> >> You may read out of the fact that there is this post from me how 
> >much
> >> this page hurt people which don't originate from the US. I also
> >> understand that you may think I'm over reacting here. If I would 
> >have
> >> read my post before this happened to me personally I probably 
would

> >> have thought that way too, well, fine, but think twice.
> >> 
> >> Markus

well, john, you said you are willing to discuss pcb mill here.
so what i ask you to discuss maybe it the quality of rail surface.

i saw some of your designs (and the designs of others) use some sort
of common pipes or steel profiles.

especially i saw gass pipes at your page... i wonder which surface quality 
they have.
I have lots of pipes and sqare stock here, but i have no idea how smooth 
and plain the surface needs to be.

obviously professional machines only use precision ground surfaces. but how 
much is needed for accurate milling?

it is hard to describe a surface quality, maybe you can find a way.
how looks it when you put a straight edge against these pipes? is there 
light shining through?
are these welded pipes?

the european pipes may differ from your pipes, and there are lots of 
different surfaces available.


have you ever had problems with these rails? i mean precision problems.

thanks

st

(by the way - don't you use a car for some reason? i mean you write a lot 
about walking here and there and so on..?)

Thanks to Markus for your excellent description of how to make
multilayer boards, and for your web pages about your through-hole
plating machine.

 

I also am very interested in the PCB CNC hole-drilling discussion.
Drilling the holes is tedious and difficult to do accurately, so having
a way to do it automatically and accurately would be great.  The
CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO list is interesting, but the traffic is overwhelming,
and most of it is not directly related to low-cost PCB drilling.

 

So, I vote to keep the PCB-CNC discussion right here in this group.  It
is definitely ON topic.

 

Regarding drilling vs. milling, if I had to choose between spending $200
to build a PCB drilling machine and $300 to build a milling machine, I
would go for just the drilling machine.  The reasons are that the
drilling machine would take care of 95% of my "needs" (wants) for
automation; I prefer to do chemical etching (much better quality results
in my opinion) instead of milling PCB tracks; if I need to cut out fancy
board shapes, I can get a scroll saw for about $100; and if I want to do
other types of milling, I will probably want a bigger, sturdier machine
than I could build myself.

 

Cheers,

- Jan

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stefan,
        Drill Rod is cheap and very accurate. You will then need a 
bushing to ride on it. The bushing can be a block of nylon with a 
hole in it. The problem is you might not be able to find a drill bit 
that will produce the correct hole. But that would be a first test. 
You could also hack old printers. You have to test the waters.
        The biggest hurdle is software. Are you going to work in 
Metric or Inches? Then on to the threaded rod. It needs to be fine 
not coarse. I use 20 tpi rod. With a 200 step motor that devides and 
inch by 4000 steps. 20 tpi with a 200 step motor gives a nice .00025 
inches per step. This makes all IC pin centers and connectors dead 
on. A Metric rod with a 200 step motor will produce wacky fractions.

                                        John  




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> well, john, you said you are willing to discuss pcb mill here.
> so what i ask you to discuss maybe it the quality of rail surface.
> 
> i saw some of your designs (and the designs of others) use some sort
> of common pipes or steel profiles.
> 
> especially i saw gass pipes at your page... i wonder which surface 
quality 
> they have.
> I have lots of pipes and sqare stock here, but i have no idea how 
smooth 
> and plain the surface needs to be.
> 
> obviously professional machines only use precision ground surfaces. 
but how 
> much is needed for accurate milling?
> 
> it is hard to describe a surface quality, maybe you can find a way.
> how looks it when you put a straight edge against these pipes? is 
there 
> light shining through?
> are these welded pipes?
> 
> the european pipes may differ from your pipes, and there are lots 
of 
> different surfaces available.
> 
> 
> have you ever had problems with these rails? i mean precision 
problems.
> 
> thanks
> 
> st
> 
> (by the way - don't you use a car for some reason? i mean you write 
a lot 
> about walking here and there and so on..?)

I just wondered which files i would have to generate for cnc drilling?
i mean for milling g-code seems to be standard (where i don't know if you 
have to generate normal positive g-code
or dome "negative" isolation tracks).
but what's the standard for drilling, some standard seems to be excellon, 
would you agree?
is there software which accepts excellon files?

st

Stefan,
        KCam at www.kellyware.com imports excellon drill files and it 
also does outline milling. It works in Windows. The motors run a 
little rough under Windows but the program was developed for making 
pcboards.

                                               John





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> I just wondered which files i would have to generate for cnc 
drilling?
> i mean for milling g-code seems to be standard (where i don't know 
if you 
> have to generate normal positive g-code
> or dome "negative" isolation tracks).
> but what's the standard for drilling, some standard seems to be 
excellon, 

> would you agree?
> is there software which accepts excellon files?
> 
> st

John,

thanks, but this is way of what i asked.

i know there are other options, i know there is drill rod.

but i hoped you may tell me which surface your gas pipes have.

the tpi of metric allthreads is about in the range of 20tpi (~1,2mm rough 
guess)
and i hope i find a software which compensates for wacky fractions.
i really think they will work for now.
even if i don't manage to have the software recalculate it i can still 
change my drawings.
and at least i can test the machine, only to see it working it doesn't 
matter if the output
is out of scale. i can still buy better threads later.

stefan



i'm sure going metric (and some day we will convince you guys to do so too 
;-) )

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:44:41 -0000, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> Stefan,
> Drill Rod is cheap and very accurate. You will then need a bushing to 
> ride on it. The bushing can be a block of nylon with a hole in it. The 
> problem is you might not be able to find a drill bit that will produce 
> the correct hole. But that would be a first test. You could also hack old 
> printers. You have to test the waters.
> The biggest hurdle is software. Are you going to work in Metric or 
> Inches? Then on to the threaded rod. It needs to be fine not coarse. I 
> use 20 tpi rod. With a 200 step motor that devides and inch by 4000 
> steps. 20 tpi with a 200 step motor gives a nice .00025 inches per step. 
> This makes all IC pin centers and connectors dead on. A Metric rod with a 
> 200 step motor will produce wacky fractions.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> well, john, you said you are willing to discuss pcb mill here.
>> so what i ask you to discuss maybe it the quality of rail surface.
>>
>> i saw some of your designs (and the designs of others) use some sort
>> of common pipes or steel profiles.
>>
>> especially i saw gass pipes at your page... i wonder which surface
> quality
>> they have.
>> I have lots of pipes and sqare stock here, but i have no idea how
> smooth
>> and plain the surface needs to be.
>>
>> obviously professional machines only use precision ground surfaces.
> but how
>> much is needed for accurate milling?
>>
>> it is hard to describe a surface quality, maybe you can find a way.
>> how looks it when you put a straight edge against these pipes? is
> there
>> light shining through?
>> are these welded pipes?
>>
>> the european pipes may differ from your pipes, and there are lots
> of
>> different surfaces available.
>>
>>
>> have you ever had problems with these rails? i mean precision
> problems.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> st
>>
>> (by the way - don't you use a car for some reason? i mean you write
> a lot
>> about walking here and there and so on..?)
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> I just wondered which files i would have to generate for cnc 
drilling?
> i mean for milling g-code seems to be standard (where i don't know 
if you 
> have to generate normal positive g-code
> or dome "negative" isolation tracks).
> but what's the standard for drilling, some standard seems to be 
excellon, 
> would you agree?
> is there software which accepts excellon files?
> 
> st

In QCad, there is a drill file.

I have only started to isolate the coordinates but hope to figure it 
out soon enough.

Dave

Stefan,
        The Gas Pipe is used on my routers. They are used for cutting 
RC balsa parts and toys. The Brute model does PC stuff. It uses the 
aluminum window channel for ways. The auminum channel is within .001" 
over a 12" length. You will have to use drill rod.
                                                    John





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> John,
> 
> thanks, but this is way of what i asked.
> 
> i know there are other options, i know there is drill rod.
> 
> but i hoped you may tell me which surface your gas pipes have.
> 
> the tpi of metric allthreads is about in the range of 20tpi (~1,2mm 
rough 
> guess)
> and i hope i find a software which compensates for wacky fractions.
> i really think they will work for now.
> even if i don't manage to have the software recalculate it i can 
still 
> change my drawings.
> and at least i can test the machine, only to see it working it 
doesn't 
> matter if the output
> is out of scale. i can still buy better threads later.
> 
> stefan
> 
> 
> 
> i'm sure going metric (and some day we will convince you guys to do 
so too 
> ;-) )
> 
> On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:44:41 -0000, crankorgan <john@k...> wrote:
> 
> > Stefan,
> > Drill Rod is cheap and very accurate. You will then need a 
bushing to 
> > ride on it. The bushing can be a block of nylon with a hole in 
it. The 
> > problem is you might not be able to find a drill bit that will 
produce 
> > the correct hole. But that would be a first test. You could also 
hack old 
> > printers. You have to test the waters.
> > The biggest hurdle is software. Are you going to work in Metric 
or 
> > Inches? Then on to the threaded rod. It needs to be fine not 
coarse. I 
> > use 20 tpi rod. With a 200 step motor that devides and inch by 
4000 
> > steps. 20 tpi with a 200 step motor gives a nice .00025 inches 
per step. 
> > This makes all IC pin centers and connectors dead on. A Metric 
rod with a 
> > 200 step motor will produce wacky fractions.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
> > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> >> well, john, you said you are willing to discuss pcb mill here.
> >> so what i ask you to discuss maybe it the quality of rail 
surface.
> >>
> >> i saw some of your designs (and the designs of others) use some 
sort
> >> of common pipes or steel profiles.
> >>
> >> especially i saw gass pipes at your page... i wonder which 
surface
> > quality
> >> they have.
> >> I have lots of pipes and sqare stock here, but i have no idea how
> > smooth
> >> and plain the surface needs to be.
> >>
> >> obviously professional machines only use precision ground 
surfaces.
> > but how
> >> much is needed for accurate milling?
> >>
> >> it is hard to describe a surface quality, maybe you can find a 
way.
> >> how looks it when you put a straight edge against these pipes? is
> > there
> >> light shining through?
> >> are these welded pipes?
> >>
> >> the european pipes may differ from your pipes, and there are lots
> > of
> >> different surfaces available.
> >>
> >>
> >> have you ever had problems with these rails? i mean precision
> > problems.
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> st
> >>
> >> (by the way - don't you use a car for some reason? i mean you 
write

> > a lot
> >> about walking here and there and so on..?)
> >
> >

so you want to say me the pipe is not exactly high precision?
i find it hard to get big drill rod, could only locate 8mm dia. which is 
way too thin.
i will have to look some more..

thanks
st

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:52:49 -0000, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> Stefan,
> The Gas Pipe is used on my routers. They are used for cutting RC balsa 
> parts and toys. The Brute model does PC stuff. It uses the aluminum 
> window channel for ways. The auminum channel is within .001" over a 12" 
> length. You will have to use drill rod.
> John
>
>

just an idea- the inner tubes from an frontfork of a bike or moped
are strong and strait if no accident was happen. they also chromed.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> so you want to say me the pipe is not exactly high precision?
> i find it hard to get big drill rod, could only locate 8mm dia. 
which is 
> way too thin.
> i will have to look some more..
> 
> thanks
> st
> 
> On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:52:49 -0000, crankorgan <john@k...> wrote:
> 
> > Stefan,
> > The Gas Pipe is used on my routers. They are used for cutting RC 
balsa 
> > parts and toys. The Brute model does PC stuff. It uses the 
aluminum 
> > window channel for ways. The auminum channel is within .001" over 
a 12" 

> > length. You will have to use drill rod.
> > John
> >
> >

but.. wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a cnc machine than 3 mopeds?
just an idea ;-).

sounds not easy to get for me.....


st

On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:10:31 -0000, roel_cnc <atmel@...> wrote:

> just an idea-the inner tubes from an frontfork of a bike or moped
> are strong and strait if no accident was happen. they also chromed.
>
> ---

In article <blpk30+hmb@...>,
   crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
> The parts I use are only found in US and Canada. Other countries use 
> metric bolts. This throws the design way off!

Not entirely true. Here in the uk non-metric fasteners, taps, dies, drills
etc are still readily available. :-)

I still use BA for all my electronics construction and the lead screws for
my homebrew pcb drill jig are 1/4" Whitworth. This thread has a pitch of
0.05"

-- 
 __  __  __  __      __ ___   _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
|  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.

There are lots of options.

Turbo-CNC is only about $30.00 and will allow you to use a lot of 
variations.

considder timing belts and pullys to change the ratio.

A 2:1 belt reduction will offer half the range or double the 
accuracy.  A few minutes with a spreadsheet will yield all sorts of 
options.

and, if you are off 0.001" then the 'odd' steps are not really a 
problem.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> John,
> 
> thanks, but this is way of what i asked.
> 
> i know there are other options, i know there is drill rod.
> 
> but i hoped you may tell me which surface your gas pipes have.


The problem with galvanized or cast pipes is that the surface is very 
rough.  a few minutes with a file followed by some sandpaper can 
offer a smooth surface.

fixed upper bearings and spring loaded lower units can allow for the 
differences in pipe diameter.

My point of view is that if you can get your hands on something, do 
it.  then look for better stuff as you go !

Dave

Even a metric leadscrew should not be a problem.

Consider a coarse leadscrew of 16mm-2mm.  (not sure of the exact 
thread numbering) Here in the States, we call it All-Thread, or 
threaded rod, but basically it is just a long shaft that is fully 
threaded.

200 steps per revolution will spin a 2mm leadscrew with 2540 steps 
per inch or an theoretical accuracy of 0.0003937 inches.

a typical IC has pins that are 0.2 inches apart with a drill hole of 
about 1mm, and that has plenty of room.  having that hole within 
0.0003937 inches or within 0.01mm is close enough for even the most 
demanding home brew.

a half step drive will cut that in half and a 10x microstepper will 
locate holes within 0.001mm and that is close enough for a 
professional shop !

I'm not sure what the metric timing belt pullys can offer, but they 
do offer rations that will increase that accurcy even more.

please feel free to correct my math.  conversions are not my strong 
point.

Dave


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stuart Winsor 
<stuartwinsor@a...> wrote:
> In article <blpk30+hmb@e...>,
>    crankorgan <john@k...> wrote:
> > The parts I use are only found in US and Canada. Other countries 
use 
> > metric bolts. This throws the design way off!
> 
> Not entirely true. Here in the uk non-metric fasteners, taps, dies, 
drills
> etc are still readily available. :-)
> 
> I still use BA for all my electronics construction and the lead 
screws for
> my homebrew pcb drill jig are 1/4" Whitworth. This thread has a 
pitch of
> 0.05"
> 
> -- 
>  __  __  __  __      __ ___   
_____________________________________________
> |__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
> |  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC 
machines

> ___________________________/ stuartwinsor@a...
> 
> 101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.

Stuart,
       Like I said the parts, Window Channel and Gas Pipe
I use are only found in the US and Canada.

                                          John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stuart Winsor 
<stuartwinsor@a...> wrote:
> In article <blpk30+hmb@e...>,
>    crankorgan <john@k...> wrote:
> > The parts I use are only found in US and Canada. Other countries 
use 
> > metric bolts. This throws the design way off!
> 
> Not entirely true. Here in the uk non-metric fasteners, taps, dies, 
drills
> etc are still readily available. :-)
> 
> I still use BA for all my electronics construction and the lead 
screws for
> my homebrew pcb drill jig are 1/4" Whitworth. This thread has a 
pitch of
> 0.05"
> 
> -- 
>  __  __  __  __      __ ___   
_____________________________________________
> |__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
> |  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC 
machines

> ___________________________/ stuartwinsor@a...
> 
> 101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.

> I don't know which brand photoresist is sold in your region, but 
worst case 
> it is available
> mail order. all you need it the spray can of resist, any 
developer, and 
> some ohp transparencys (get a good brand).

Get a Brand that list your type of printer if you use ink jets.  
Never use the Laser Transparencies, but have heard of them shrinking 
due to the heat of the printer.  This was talked about earlier, 
don't remember if anybody ever compiled the information on different 
printers and different transparencies.

Myself I never had very good luck with the spray on resist, and 
found it a pain to do, however others I have indicated they use it 
and works well.  Might be your best bet in your case, be worth a 
try.  As for PCB's I use the MG Chemical's 600 series with very good 
results.

Ben

Myself I think that the topic of CNC PCB machines is a good topic 
for this list, as to the design, parts, and software.  No I would 
not want this topic moved to another Group.  My vote would be that 
it stays here.  There can be more than one topic going on at any 
time on the list, if the current one does not interest you start a 
topic that does to see if others have a interest.

Myself I am looking into ideas, parts, hardware, software, etc. to 
building a PCB drilling machine.  Cheap is not my main goal, but 
cost needs to be reasonable.  So YES I am interested in this topic 
to be on this list, it does have to do with making PCB's which is 
what this list is all about, at least that is why I am here.  I 
would not want topic of CNC/PCB drilling/Milling moved to another 
list.  I think it fits in just fine here.

Ben

On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> thanks, but this is way of what i asked.
>
> i know there are other options, i know there is drill rod.
>
> but i hoped you may tell me which surface your gas pipes have.
>
> the tpi of metric allthreads is about in the range of 20tpi (~1,2mm
> rough guess) and i hope i find a software which compensates for wacky
> fractions. i really think they will work for now. even if i don't manage
> to have the software recalculate it i can still change my drawings. and
> at least i can test the machine, only to see it working it doesn't
> matter if the output is out of scale. i can still buy better threads
> later.

As far as drill rod goes:

There are some non-drilling machines at the place where I work that use
drill rod as a bearing surface.  It works, but it's prone to flexture.
If you're going to use drill rod, go for some beefy rod.  1/2" or 12mm is
ok for something of reasonable size (typical PCB).  But if you're
interested in milling stuff that's on the order of 300mm or larger on a
side, go for a thicker rod.

As far as leadscrews go:

Allthread is fine, but you are prone to having leadscrew errors.  If you
can find a supplier for precision threaded rod, go for it.  If it's
precision ground threaded rod, all the better.  There's a US supplier that
will ship Imperial or metric precision threaded rod for not much more than
hardware store allthread.  There are bound to be suppliers on every other
continent that'll provide similar products.

As far as software goes:

I run my CNC tooling on TurboCNC from DAK Engineering.  It's a DOS
program, and as a result the motor pulses are quite smooth.  It'll drive
up to eight axes.  This may seem like overkill (it is), but it lets you
put things like a material changer or a toolchanger onto your machine, and
gives you the tools to control them.  TurboCNC will let you define the
machine in metric or Imperial numbers, and will run parts programs in
either measurement system.  It also has backlash compensation, so if you
are using a decent leadscrew and nut, it will give very good results
without requiring ballscrews.

The one catch with TurboCNC is that it is designed as a general purpose
CNC controller.  As a result it talks G-code instead of Excellon.  You
need to find software that will generate the G-code for you.  Someone has
written some Eagle scripts to export G-code drill files as well as trace
isolation milling files.  You can also get software that will take Gerber
and Excellon files and do the transation for you (DeskPCB is a good
example).

Lots of options.

Tom

Hello Stefan,

05. October 2003, 12:48:56, you wrote:

ST> nice to hear there is some progress.


ST> your control setup sounds very interesting, but maybe a bit too complicated 
ST> for me.
ST> (i hoped there are free dos based tools for parallel port drive available)

ST> have you done software research? what is available?
ST> i will check today - ignored the software until now totally....

ST> regards
ST> stefan



And I replied:

 As for free (almost) software for driving CNC stuff over parallel port, you
 can  try  TurboCNC.  Registration  is $20 and for that fee you will get the
 source  code.  If  you  do  not register, still you have a fully functional
 software whic is not crippled in any way, and has no limitations.

 Do a little Google, I can not find the URL at the moment.

-- 
 Best Regards,
 Zoran
 mailto:zasto@...

I have worked on and built a few CNC machines and I would recommend
supported rails rather than unsupported rods or pipe. You will be amazed by
how much an unsupported rod will flex. I used to use a CNC engraver for
routing shapes out of PCB with a 1.6mm cutter. It used 25mm unsupported
rails and I have seen it deflect by more than 0.5mm!

If I was building a machine as cheap as possible I would use skateboard
bearings running on rectangular section cold rolled mild steel bar (AKA
bright mild steel). The bar can be bolted to your chassis (wood or steel)
for a really rigid setup. Bright mild steel is cheap and can be reasonably
accurate especially if you can go to your local steel supplier and select
the straightest piece they have got. If you don't have a local steel
supplier look for small engineering companies. They are often quite willing
to sell you small quantities of steel.

Allthread quite accurate enough for drilling and PCB milling. If you use two
preloaded nuts then backlash should not be a problem. For the larger sizes
of allthread you can buy extra long nuts that are used as couplers. They
seem to have less backlash then ordinary nuts.

Les

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > thanks, but this is way of what i asked.
> >
> > i know there are other options, i know there is drill rod.
> >
> > but i hoped you may tell me which surface your gas pipes have.
>
>
> The problem with galvanized or cast pipes is that the surface is very
> rough.  a few minutes with a file followed by some sandpaper can
> offer a smooth surface.
>
> fixed upper bearings and spring loaded lower units can allow for the
> differences in pipe diameter.
>
> My point of view is that if you can get your hands on something, do
> it.  then look for better stuff as you go !
>
> Dave
>

Les,
    I would use 7/16" drill rod for 12" machines with 6" beds that 
mill and drill PCBoards. Use the roller blade bearings for larger 
machines that make signs and toys. My 7th Sojourn uses roller blade 
bearings and window channel. It can do large trace boards but the 
smaller Brute has better accuracy.

                                       John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Les Newell" <les@l...> wrote:
> I have worked on and built a few CNC machines and I would recommend
> supported rails rather than unsupported rods or pipe. You will be 
amazed by
> how much an unsupported rod will flex. I used to use a CNC engraver 
for
> routing shapes out of PCB with a 1.6mm cutter. It used 25mm 
unsupported
> rails and I have seen it deflect by more than 0.5mm!
> 
> If I was building a machine as cheap as possible I would use 
skateboard
> bearings running on rectangular section cold rolled mild steel bar 
(AKA
> bright mild steel). The bar can be bolted to your chassis (wood or 
steel)
> for a really rigid setup. Bright mild steel is cheap and can be 
reasonably
> accurate especially if you can go to your local steel supplier and 
select
> the straightest piece they have got. If you don't have a local steel
> supplier look for small engineering companies. They are often quite 
willing
> to sell you small quantities of steel.
> 
> Allthread quite accurate enough for drilling and PCB milling. If 
you use two
> preloaded nuts then backlash should not be a problem. For the 
larger sizes
> of allthread you can buy extra long nuts that are used as couplers. 
They
> seem to have less backlash then ordinary nuts.
> 
> Les
> 
> 
> 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > > John,
> > >
> > > thanks, but this is way of what i asked.
> > >
> > > i know there are other options, i know there is drill rod.
> > >
> > > but i hoped you may tell me which surface your gas pipes have.
> >
> >
> > The problem with galvanized or cast pipes is that the surface is 
very
> > rough.  a few minutes with a file followed by some sandpaper can
> > offer a smooth surface.
> >
> > fixed upper bearings and spring loaded lower units can allow for 
the
> > differences in pipe diameter.
> >
> > My point of view is that if you can get your hands on something, 
do

> > it.  then look for better stuff as you go !
> >
> > Dave
> >

> Allthread quite accurate enough for drilling and PCB milling. If 
you use two
> preloaded nuts then backlash should not be a problem. For the 
larger sizes
> of allthread you can buy extra long nuts that are used as couplers. 
They
> seem to have less backlash then ordinary nuts.
> 
> Les


I use long threads and find that the typical play between a screw and 
nut is about 5thou (0.133mm) and that is pretty sloppy.

with a coupling, that cuts down to much less, but if you can tap your 
own part, the threads become even tighter.

The HUGE problem is the material that the screw is made from.

I took my threaded rod and chased it with a die that was adjusted so 
that it was not cutting, only cleaning the threads. lots of oil.

Then I took a rag with my thumbnail and proceeded to clean the 
threads.  every few turns the rag would catch or I could feel a lump 
in the metal.  A small file got rid of the lump.  By the time I was 
done, I could run the thread from end to end with no roughness.

Personally, I don't like all-thread, but I use it because it does the 
job.

While I am talking about it, do not expect heavy machining with it.  
The losses from friction are just too great.  A heavy motor and/or 
belt reduction is needed for that.  It can be done if you need to get 
by on a budget, but don't stop looking for ballscrews or an ACME rod.

Dave

> 
> 
> And I replied:
> 
>  As for free (almost) software for driving CNC stuff over parallel 
port, you
>  can  try  TurboCNC.  Registration  is $20 and for that fee you 
will get the
>  source  code.  If  you  do  not register, still you have a fully 
functional
>  software whic is not crippled in any way, and has no limitations.
> 
>  Do a little Google, I can not find the URL at the moment.
> 
> -- 
>  Best Regards,
>  Zoran
>  mailto:zasto@y...

Here is the group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/turbocnc/

here is the home page
http://www.dakeng.com/

As with all software/shareware, if you use it and have decided on 
it's continued use, send in the $20.00,  This is espically true if 
you are making $$$ on it.

Dave

thanks all..

i think today a lot of very good and helpful tips were written.
please excuse that i don't answer each suggestion in detail for itself but
this is because they all were pretty clear to understand and need not much 
comment.

I think i will use allthread, like planned, for now, because it is really 
easy to get.
but be sure i will keep an eye on ebay. Another question, stainless 
allthreads, are they really better for continous use?
i had to fasten some stainless nuts on stainless bolts a few days ago, 
there was more friction
than with rusting bolts/nuts. Is this eliminated by lubrication? Is it much 
better to use stainless
allthreads?

I feared flexing a lot and thought about supporting.
(thanks les for providing numbers - i really had no idea how much it may 
be)
It finally depends on the rail material i get if it is needed.
When the stainless pipe is useable it may be sturdy enough by its own (i 
just can't imagine
a 50mm pipe bending on shorth length).



I also understand now better it is more important to try it with something.
It is impossible to get it perfect the first time.
I will use the parts i already have, or can get most easily, and use them.
When the problems occur i will have to solve them.

st

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Ben H. Lanmon" <bhleavi@y...>
wrote:
> ... I 
> would not want topic of CNC/PCB drilling/Milling moved to another 
> list.  I think it fits in just fine here.

I agree. Long ago I even put some folders and links in the Links page:
PCB and CAD Programs and Milling/Engraving Method.

A link to TurboCNC is in the PCB and CAD Programs folder.

I would not like to see the list split off. The list is about making
PCBs yourself. Sometimes that means as nuts and bolts as someone
writing their own software, etching tanks, through hole plating tanks,
and doing every last step; sometimes it means laying it out in a
CAD/PCB program and sending it off to another company to produce.

A reminder: Please use the Links page! Look there if you are looking
for a link to something, it may be there already. If it isn't and you
find one, please add it in the appropriate area.

And whatever we discuss here, keep the subject lines relevant to the
topic. Discussions change over time, don't hesitate to change the
subject line to follow it. Although I think this list has been better
about that stuff that just about any list I'm on.

Phew! I can't believe how much list traffic there has been since I was
on yesterday! I love this list!

Steve, fast neutron moderator

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Les Newell wrote:

> I have worked on and built a few CNC machines and I would recommend
> supported rails rather than unsupported rods or pipe. You will be amazed
> by how much an unsupported rod will flex. I used to use a CNC engraver
> for routing shapes out of PCB with a 1.6mm cutter. It used 25mm
> unsupported rails and I have seen it deflect by more than 0.5mm!

I'll second this.  If rod is all you can get your hands on, all's not
lost.  You can cross-drill and tap drill rod, and make your own supports.

> If I was building a machine as cheap as possible I would use skateboard
> bearings running on rectangular section cold rolled mild steel bar (AKA
> bright mild steel). The bar can be bolted to your chassis (wood or
> steel) for a really rigid setup. Bright mild steel is cheap and can be
> reasonably accurate especially if you can go to your local steel
> supplier and select the straightest piece they have got. If you don't
> have a local steel supplier look for small engineering companies. They
> are often quite willing to sell you small quantities of steel.

I'd also like to second the use of skateboard bearings.  In case you
haven't priced bearings recently, they're uncomfortably expensive.  This
is even more true if you're looking at using an uncommon size.  Skateboard
bearings (and inline skate bearings, which have the same dimensions) are
very very common, and people doing competitive skating have helped drop
the cost on the things tremendously.  You can get a nice set of ABEC7
ceramic skateboard bearings for about $25US, and they're massive overkill.
A nice set of ABEC5 bearings will work quite well, and definitely won't
break the bank.

Tom

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Tom Benedict <benedict@h...> 
wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Les Newell wrote:
> 
> > I have worked on and built a few CNC machines and I would 
recommend
> > supported rails rather than unsupported rods or pipe. You will be 
amazed
> > by how much an unsupported rod will flex. I used to use a CNC 
engraver
> > for routing shapes out of PCB with a 1.6mm cutter. It used 25mm
> > unsupported rails and I have seen it deflect by more than 0.5mm!
> 
> I'll second this.  If rod is all you can get your hands on, all's 
not
> lost.  You can cross-drill and tap drill rod, and make your own 
supports.
> 
> > If I was building a machine as cheap as possible I would use 
skateboard
> > bearings running on rectangular section cold rolled mild steel 
bar (AKA
> > bright mild steel). The bar can be bolted to your chassis (wood or
> > steel) for a really rigid setup. Bright mild steel is cheap and 
can be
> > reasonably accurate especially if you can go to your local steel
> > supplier and select the straightest piece they have got. If you 
don't
> > have a local steel supplier look for small engineering companies. 
They
> > are often quite willing to sell you small quantities of steel.
> 
> I'd also like to second the use of skateboard bearings.  In case you
> haven't priced bearings recently, they're uncomfortably expensive.  
This
> is even more true if you're looking at using an uncommon size.  
Skateboard
> bearings (and inline skate bearings, which have the same 
dimensions) are
> very very common, and people doing competitive skating have helped 
drop
> the cost on the things tremendously.  You can get a nice set of 
ABEC7
> ceramic skateboard bearings for about $25US, and they're massive 
overkill.
> A nice set of ABEC5 bearings will work quite well, and definitely 
won't
> break the bank.
> 
> Tom

There are other ways to support a machine than to have ridgid rails, 
but come clever engineering is needed.

btw, you didn't mention that a set of ABEC5 bearing is less than 
$20.00 US and a set is 16 bearings !

Dave

>I'd also like to second the use of skateboard bearings.  In case you
>haven't priced bearings recently, they're uncomfortably expensive.

I can second this too. I did found another cheap source for good ball
bearings that I like to share here - especially for smaller ones. RC
cars! Visit a shop for RC racing car models. You will be surprized how
cheap replacement set's of ballbearings are! Definately in the same
league - if not sometimes even cheaper than skateboard bearings.

Markus

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Dave Mucha wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Tom Benedict <benedict@h...>
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Les Newell wrote:
> >
> > > I have worked on and built a few CNC machines and I would
> recommend
> > > supported rails rather than unsupported rods or pipe. You will be
> amazed
> > > by how much an unsupported rod will flex. I used to use a CNC
> engraver
> > > for routing shapes out of PCB with a 1.6mm cutter. It used 25mm
> > > unsupported rails and I have seen it deflect by more than 0.5mm!
> >
> > I'll second this.  If rod is all you can get your hands on, all's
> not
> > lost.  You can cross-drill and tap drill rod, and make your own
> supports.
> >
> > > If I was building a machine as cheap as possible I would use
> skateboard
> > > bearings running on rectangular section cold rolled mild steel
> bar (AKA
> > > bright mild steel). The bar can be bolted to your chassis (wood or
> > > steel) for a really rigid setup. Bright mild steel is cheap and
> can be
> > > reasonably accurate especially if you can go to your local steel
> > > supplier and select the straightest piece they have got. If you
> don't
> > > have a local steel supplier look for small engineering companies.
> They
> > > are often quite willing to sell you small quantities of steel.
> >
> > I'd also like to second the use of skateboard bearings.  In case you
> > haven't priced bearings recently, they're uncomfortably expensive.
> This
> > is even more true if you're looking at using an uncommon size.
> Skateboard
> > bearings (and inline skate bearings, which have the same
> dimensions) are
> > very very common, and people doing competitive skating have helped
> drop
> > the cost on the things tremendously.  You can get a nice set of
> ABEC7
> > ceramic skateboard bearings for about $25US, and they're massive
> overkill.
> > A nice set of ABEC5 bearings will work quite well, and definitely
> won't
> > break the bank.
> >
> > Tom
>
> There are other ways to support a machine than to have ridgid rails,
> but come clever engineering is needed.

There are lots of ways.  If people are looking at building a fairly robust
machine, take a look at the books by Dave Gingery (published by Lindsay
Publications <http://www.lindsaybks.com>.  It's overkill for PCB drilling,
but even if you don't build to Gingery's specs, the sections on how to
make accurate and robust machine ways (sliding parts) are invaluable.

> btw, you didn't mention that a set of ABEC5 bearing is less than
> $20.00 US and a set is 16 bearings !

DOH!  Sorry, I didn't mention the number.  Yeah, it winds up being about a
dollar a bearing.  Compared to some of the bearings I've had to price in
the past, that's dirt dirt cheap.  Some projects I've had to skip because
they required a couple hundred in bearings.

One last thing regarding what "weight" machine to build:  Attack what you
desperately need.  If drilling PCB holes is what you desperately need,
attack that.  But also look to future needs.  A beefier machine can also
do front-panel cutouts.  More importantly, a beefier machine can make the
parts you'd need to make an even beefier machine.  If the price was close,
I'd opt for something that would do milling as well as drilling, simply
because when that machine got to be too small or too limited, I could use
it to make the next machine.

Tom

>
> There are lots of ways.  If people are looking at building a fairly 
> robust
> machine, take a look at the books by Dave Gingery (published by Lindsay
> Publications <http://www.lindsaybks.com>.  It's overkill for PCB 
> drilling,
> but even if you don't build to Gingery's specs, the sections on how to
> make accurate and robust machine ways (sliding parts) are invaluable.
>
>
> Tom
>

I want to get those gingery books for a while now.
Simply can't find them at any library and they are not available through 
the common shops.

It's awful. you can order them at amazon.com if you want.
but no way ordering them at amazon.at (oh yes, some insane guy sells the 
"metal shaper" book for some 250eur...(used condition))

I don't really want to order them from the US (you know this is damn 
expensive).

maybe some day, i find them somewhere and can read them...

st

>I want to get those gingery books for a while now.
>Simply can't find them at any library and they are not available through 
>the common shops.
>
>It's awful. you can order them at amazon.com if you want.
>but no way ordering them at amazon.at (oh yes, some insane guy sells the 
>"metal shaper" book for some 250eur...(used condition))
>
>I don't really want to order them from the US (you know this is damn 
>expensive).

I can't confirm this. I made the experience that the books by themself
often are MUCH cheaper than what you would pay in a local shop here.
So, if you choose a slow shipement method prices remainreasonable and
are in a sense competitive. This is especially true if you want
multiple books cause then shipping charges are lower. I really often
buy books at amazone.com cause - as you say - specialized (especially
english) books are hard to get elsewhere. The funny thing is that even
if you order a book at a local store (a good bookstore would order
them for you provided you know the ISBN number) you end up waiting a
month or two anyways paying more so again, amazone.com really is a
good option.

Let me state that I'm of course in now way (unfortunately ;-) )
related to Amazone.whatever. I'm just a happy customer.

Markus

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> I want to get those gingery books for a while now. Simply can't find
> them at any library and they are not available through the common shops.
>
> It's awful. you can order them at amazon.com if you want. but no way
> ordering them at amazon.at (oh yes, some insane guy sells the "metal
> shaper" book for some 250eur...(used condition))
>
> I don't really want to order them from the US (you know this is damn
> expensive).
>
> maybe some day, i find them somewhere and can read them...

On the Lindsay web site, there are some alternative vendors for their
books:

Camden Miniature Steam Services
Barrow Farm
Rode near Bath
Somerset BA3 6PS
ENGLAND
www.camdenmin.co.uk
telephone: 01373 830151
fax: 01373 830516

Plough Book Sales
PO Box 14
Belmont VIC 3216
AUSTRALIA
telephone: 03 5266 1262
fax 03 5266 2180

They would both still be overseas for you, but Camden should be closer and
hopefully more affordable.  Failing this, you could try calling Lindsay or
Camden and see if there are any book dealers closer to you who might have
them.

Tom

Hello Stefan,

06. October 2003, 14:05:10, you wrote:

<snip>

ST> but be sure i will keep an eye on ebay. Another question, stainless
ST> allthreads, are they really better for continous use?
ST> i had to fasten some stainless nuts on stainless bolts a few days ago, 
ST> there was more friction
ST> than with rusting bolts/nuts. Is this eliminated by lubrication? Is it much 
ST> better to use stainless
ST> allthreads?

DO  NOT  use the combination stainless/stainless! On one (not CNC) machine I
had to cut the bound nuts. Better combination is stainless/brass.

<snip more>

ST> st

-- 
 Best Regards,
 Zoran
 mailto:zasto@...

Please change the subject line when the topic changes.

as you can see, this topic will more than double or triple the list 
traffic and will make it VERY hard to search the archives unless the 
subject line is at least close to the topic.

I noticed we did more posts in 6 days 2/3 of the list history.

Here is a list of the link and some sorces.  Both sources can be 
linked from the lindsaybks.com link.  just try to follow the BUY 
links.

Dave


- -  -  -  -  



There are lots of ways. If people are looking at building a fairly 
robust machine, take a look at the books by Dave Gingery (published 
by Lindsay Publications 

<http://www.lindsaybks.com>. 

It's overkill for PCB drilling, but even if you don't build to 
Gingery's specs, the sections on how to make accurate and robust 
machine ways (sliding parts) are invaluable.

ADDITIONAL SORUCES 

> Camden Miniature Steam Services
> Barrow Farm
> Rode near Bath
> Somerset BA3 6PS
> ENGLAND
> www.camdenmin.co.uk
> telephone: 01373 830151
> fax: 01373 830516
> 
> Plough Book Sales
> PO Box 14
> Belmont VIC 3216
> AUSTRALIA
> telephone: 03 5266 1262
> fax 03 5266 2180

One book NOT to get is "CNC Robotics" by Geoff Williams. The 
descriptions make it sound great for the beginner. The reality is 
much different.

First problem is that he uses the rails from a photo-exposure 
machine as the basis for his machine. For you to get the same thing 
you'd have to be extremely lucky or lay out a for thousand dollars 
for the photo-exposure unit to cannabalize.

Second problem is that only one machine type is presented. No 
discussion about rail or bearing options, only the one he used is 
talked about.

Basically, one day searching the net and reading the CAD_CAM_DRO 
group will net you more information that this book can provide.

Basically, the book is just a diary of the building of a single 
machine being built. It would be ok as a $10-20 book but this thing 
is like three times that price.

> There are lots of ways. If people are looking at building a fairly 
> robust machine, take a look at the books by Dave Gingery 
(published 

> by Lindsay Publications 
> 
> <http://www.lindsaybks.com>. 
> 
> It's overkill for PCB drilling, but even if you don't build to 
> Gingery's specs, the sections on how to make accurate and robust 
> machine ways (sliding parts) are invaluable.
> 
> ADDITIONAL SORUCES 
> 
> 
> > Camden Miniature Steam Services
> > Barrow Farm
> > Rode near Bath
> > Somerset BA3 6PS
> > ENGLAND
> > www.camdenmin.co.uk
> > telephone: 01373 830151
> > fax: 01373 830516
> > 
> > Plough Book Sales
> > PO Box 14
> > Belmont VIC 3216
> > AUSTRALIA
> > telephone: 03 5266 1262
> > fax 03 5266 2180

> ST >Another question, stainless
> ST> allthreads, are they really better for continous use?
> ST> i had to fasten some stainless nuts on stainless bolts a few 
days ago, 
> ST> there was more friction
> ST> than with rusting bolts/nuts. 


> DO  NOT  use the combination stainless/stainless! On one (not CNC) 
machine I
> had to cut the bound nuts. Better combination is stainless/brass.


A little more information on this is wanted.  I use SS nuts and bolts 
all the time.  some project requrie that.


As for the the question of a stainless leadscrew.  Here are some 
problems.

an oxidizing screw such as steel will need lubracation so as not to 
rust.  Rust will wear out the nut and the machine will loose accuracy.

lubricating such a shaft will create the problem of the lubricating 
oils picking up dust.  and the dust will become a problem.

a soft metal like brass will wear out from use.

Stainless is preferred because it eleminates many of these problems.

the note about not using a stainless leadscrew on a stainless nut is 
correct.  I preferr a nylon or some plastic type nut.  I find they 
are much better for a number of reasons.  and making your own is much 
easier.

Dave

>
>> DO  NOT  use the combination stainless/stainless! On one (not CNC)
> machine I
>> had to cut the bound nuts. Better combination is stainless/brass.
>
>
> A little more information on this is wanted.  I use SS nuts and bolts all 
> the time.  some project requrie that.
>
>
> As for the the question of a stainless leadscrew.  Here are some 
> problems.
>
> an oxidizing screw such as steel will need lubracation so as not to rust. 
> Rust will wear out the nut and the machine will loose accuracy.
>
> lubricating such a shaft will create the problem of the lubricating oils 
> picking up dust.  and the dust will become a problem.
>
> a soft metal like brass will wear out from use.
>
> Stainless is preferred because it eleminates many of these problems.
>
> the note about not using a stainless leadscrew on a stainless nut is 
> correct.  I preferr a nylon or some plastic type nut.  I find they are 
> much better for a number of reasons.  and making your own is much easier.
>
> Dave
>
>
I would also think stainless and brass is much better...
Brass is somehow "self greasing", if you let run a brass bearing dry it 
survives much longer than other metals.
I think stainless/stainless may bind.. (the screws i had really felt like 
they are binding, i only wantet
to fasten them once and had no grease nearby - so i didn't care)
With no load there was no friction, only when the screw started
to tighten you could feel the friction of the thread.
It somehow felt like if sand is between the nut and the bolt


I see threre is the danger of dust sticking to it, but maybe some oil on 
the spindle is better than totally dry. (all machines i know with 
ways/threads use oil, even
if they produce abrasive dust).

I think, just for testing the machine it may be ok to use cheap galvanized 
rods.
maybe run a die over it... (dave how do you adjust a die to "clean only not 
cut" - the dies here are not
adjustable... without diamond file ;-).)
If these rods are damaged after some runs that doesn't matter if you later
exchange them with better (ground) threaded rods and nuts....

st

There is another point where i have questions...

Which motor power is needed? (i know this depends on the loading of the 
machine).
But i mean in general..

Also i wonder how many motors are needed, for the main axis, if you move 
the
workpiece in one direction, you can use one with a centered threaded rod.
but if you make the spindle move all three axis it can't be in the middle 
(it would opstruct the spindles movement).


What is better, using two motors and two threads, two threads belt coupled 
and driven by one motor?

What if one decides to built the centered drive under the moving workpiece, 
if the milling
it at the very side may this not cause the carriage to twist?



the other axis are pretty clear, one motor can be used and the driving 
thread is not in the way of the spindle.



I have lots of steppers here, but they seem to small for me (maybe one for 
the z axis....).

Any power rating on actual machine would be fine (think steppers are 
labeled volts and ampere).


Thanks
Stefan

Stephan wrote -
I would also think stainless and brass is much better...
It has more to do with metallurgy. The combination of Stainless/Stainless
would act very much like there was sand in the threads. It WILL seize. For a
non-moving attachment, standard iron is OK; for a moving environment brass
is it.

I see threre is the danger of dust sticking to it, but maybe some oil on the
spindle is better than totally dry. (all machines i know with ways/threads
use oil, even if they produce abrasive dust).
I hope not. The shavings from fiberglass, copper, whatever are in fact
abrasive. You would do far better to use graphite on the moving parts. This
lubricates, but does not 'attract' shavings.
 maybe run a die over it... (dave how do you adjust a die to "clean only not
cut" - the dies here are not adjustable... without diamond file ;-).)
He is probably using  a lathe die. The type that are round and fit in a
bar-holder aren't adjustable. 'They' (whomever the mystical 'they' are!) do
make thread-chasers, this would do the trick. For that matter, if you use
your non-adjustable taps with an application of beeswax you could clean the
thread up quite nicely. I've been using this on 00-90 and 2-56 for years,
both inner and outer taps. You need to clean the beeswax off when done, but
that's a walk in the park.
Bert

Thanks a lot...

I will try the beeswax method....

and i hope i can locate graphite....


st

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:11:24 -0700, Bert Greeley <bert-tpsrr@...> wrote:

> Stephan wrote -
> I would also think stainless and brass is much better...

>> It has more to do with metallurgy. The combination of 
>> Stainless/Stainless
>> would act very much like there was sand in the threads. It WILL seize. 
>> For a
>> non-moving attachment, standard iron is OK; for a moving environment 
>> brass
>> is it.
>
> I see threre is the danger of dust sticking to it, but maybe some oil on 
> the
> spindle is better than totally dry. (all machines i know with 
> ways/threads
> use oil, even if they produce abrasive dust).

>> I hope not. The shavings from fiberglass, copper, whatever are in fact
>> abrasive. You would do far better to use graphite on the moving parts. 
>> This
>> lubricates, but does not 'attract' shavings.

> maybe run a die over it... (dave how do you adjust a die to "clean only 
> not
> cut" - the dies here are not adjustable... without diamond file ;-).)

>> He is probably using  a lathe die. The type that are round and fit in a
>> bar-holder aren't adjustable. 'They' (whomever the mystical 'they' are!) 
>> do
>> make thread-chasers, this would do the trick. For that matter, if you 
>> use
>> your non-adjustable taps with an application of beeswax you could clean 
>> the
>> thread up quite nicely. I've been using this on 00-90 and 2-56 for 
>> years,
>> both inner and outer taps. You need to clean the beeswax off when done, 
>> but
>> that's a walk in the park.
>> Bert
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

>  maybe run a die over it... (dave how do you adjust a die to "clean 
only not
> cut" - the dies here are not adjustable... without diamond file ;-
).)


> He is probably using  a lathe die. The type that are round and fit 
in a
> bar-holder aren't adjustable. 


I use both rond and hex dies in an ordinary (round or hex) handle, 
and use both non-adjustable and adjustable. Many of my dies have a 
screw adjustment.  dies are very common in both adjustable and non 
adjustable.  same supplier, just a little more money.

These would NOT be the real cheap ones you get on sale for one dollar.

http://www.eisonindustrial.com/dies.htm
http://www.widell.com/art.htm  (big picture-slow)

Dave

>
> I use both rond and hex dies in an ordinary (round or hex) handle, and 
> use both non-adjustable and adjustable. Many of my dies have a screw 
> adjustment.  dies are very common in both adjustable and non adjustable.  
> same supplier, just a little more money.
>
> These would NOT be the real cheap ones you get on sale for one dollar.
>
> http://www.eisonindustrial.com/dies.htm
> http://www.widell.com/art.htm  (big picture-slow)
>
> Dave
>
>
>

guess i give the beeswax a try.... (the budget)
have never seen an adjustable die before.. looks like it wants to break if 
you tighten that screw..
maybe one could make an adjustable one by taking a "one dollar" die, 
cutting a slit in with
a angle grinder in one side (cool often) and put a key in to set new 
with....

are the not adjustable dies suited for stainless?
(i mean not the cheapest $1 ones but the just above average tools shop 
version)

(still wondering which motor power is needed....)

st

In article <blqdsc+ngl2@...>,
   crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
> Stuart,
>        Like I said the parts, Window Channel and Gas Pipe
> I use are only found in the US and Canada.

Well obviously, since I've not seen your plans, I cannot comment on
specifics like that, though my own jig was made using scrap window channel
and various aluminium extrusions together with some other "bits and pieces.

Regards
Stuart.

-- 
 __  __  __  __      __ ___   _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
|  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ stuartwinsor@...

101 uses for a Pentium: No1 - A slow cooker.

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Dave Mucha wrote:

> lubricating such a shaft will create the problem of the lubricating
> oils picking up dust.  and the dust will become a problem.
>
> a soft metal like brass will wear out from use.
>
> Stainless is preferred because it eleminates many of these problems.
>
> the note about not using a stainless leadscrew on a stainless nut is
> correct.  I preferr a nylon or some plastic type nut.  I find they are
> much better for a number of reasons.  and making your own is much
> easier.

There are two classes of machines in use in industry that can potentially
answer this question:  One is a surface grinder, which combines very
precise ways and leadscrews with extremely abrasive dust (aluminum oxide
or silicon carbide).  The other is (you guessed it) commercial PCB
drilling and milling machines.

I don't own either one of these, but one word of advice I've heard about
surface grinders is that you don't oil or grease the ways or leadscrew.
The guy I was talking to uses a molybdenum disulfide grease (aka
anti-seize compound, available in the local hardware store).  He rubs the
thing down, runs the axis back and forth a couple of times, then wipes it
clean.  The moly gets into the ways, screw, and nut, and will act as a
lubricant for about a year of intermittent to medium use.  After a year,
thoroughly clean the machine and repeat the treatment.

I don't think this will stop rust, though.  I live in a humid environment,
so my machines need oil or a dry lube like Boeshield T7.  Nothing else
stops the rust for me.

For leadscrew nut material, take a look at any of several self-lubricating
plastics.  Brass on steel does work well, but it does wear.  You'll need
to adjust the nut several times over its lifetime.  (For what it's worth,
I've got a brass nut on all my leadscrews, and after almost four years of
daily use I've still got 0.0025" backlash on each axis, same as when it
first went into service.)  Other options include molybdenum filled nylon
rod (Small Parts, Inc. has a 6" length of 1" diameter bar for $6.90), or
something like Rulon J (same source, same size is $85.05, and yes it's
overkill).  Teflon is not a great choice because it has a tendency to
creep under load.  The nuts will wear out very very quickly.

A thought on all this:  If you're building a drilling-only machine as your
first machine, and plan to build another machine to replace it, don't go
too nuts on making sure parts can survive for 20+ years of uninterrupted
service.

Tom

I would not recomend modifying a die.  they are precicely set and 
chances are that if you just lubricated it well and ran it along the 
threads, you would not remove metal, but would clean up any mess that 
might have occured from handling.


> are the not adjustable dies suited for stainless?
> (i mean not the cheapest $1 ones but the just above average tools 
shop 
> version)
> 
> (still wondering which motor power is needed....)

I missed this.

can you restate your question ?



Dave

> A thought on all this:  If you're building a drilling-only machine 
as your
> first machine, and plan to build another machine to replace it, 
don't go
> too nuts on making sure parts can survive for 20+ years of 
uninterrupted
> service.
> 
> Tom


My T-Tech machines have a fixed vaccuum attachemnt almost touching 
the cutter.  no stray dust !

I agree that surface grinders are special machines and are protected 
well.


and I HIGHLY agree that a beginners machine, a SIMPLE drilling table 
should not cost $100.00 and should be thought of as both a limited 
machine and a experiment and also a unit that will be used to expand 
into a better one or be replaced.

I would wager that a cheap machine should do 1,000 boards before one 
felt it was worn out.  and If you do 1,000 boards, you are either old 
enought to retire or can afford to buy better stuff !.

Dave

I see..
all say: most important: KEEP IT SIMPLE.


It just hapens i have some of this Molybdenum grease (in a spray can)
here. So i will use it.


The motors, again...

I wonder wich power the steppers should have.
200 steps is ok?
Most motors are rated in volt / ampere....
I know it would be better to compare them by N/m but the ones
i have are not labeled in torqe...


I have some, but they are too small i think...
So please anybody having firsthand experience please tell me what is 
needed.


I also wonder if the main axis should be driven by one or two motors.
If there is only one motor the screw is centered. or two screws are coupled
by tooth belt...  isn't there the problem of carriage skew if the spindle
is centered and the load applied on one side only?


thanks
st

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> I see..
> all say: most important: KEEP IT SIMPLE.
> 
> 
> It just hapens i have some of this Molybdenum grease (in a spray 
can)
> here. So i will use it.
> 
> 
> The motors, again...
> 
> I wonder wich power the steppers should have.
> 200 steps is ok?
> Most motors are rated in volt / ampere....
> I know it would be better to compare them by N/m but the ones
> i have are not labeled in torqe...
> 
> 
> I have some, but they are too small i think...
> So please anybody having firsthand experience please tell me what 
is 
> needed.
> 
> 
> I also wonder if the main axis should be driven by one or two 
motors.
> If there is only one motor the screw is centered. or two screws are 
coupled
> by tooth belt...  isn't there the problem of carriage skew if the 
spindle
> is centered and the load applied on one side only?
> 
> 
> thanks
> st

The first answer is usually a question.  what is the size of the load 
you want to move ?

if all you are doing is a drilling platform, then your little motors 
are probably good enough.

Remember the loads to move a board are not much different than to 
move a printer head.

I am not a motor expert, but have figured out that there are mainly 
two versions of stepper motors.

the pressed can style.  these are the ones you find in small printers 
and such.

then there are the NEMA rated ones.  NEMA17 is 1.7 inches square on 
the mounting plate

NEMA23 are 2.3 inches square and NEMA34 are 3.4 inches square.

a NEMA23 is common in laser printers are other machines so you should 
be able to find them as surplus for not too much money.

Often 200 steps per rotation, with half stepping, you get a decent 
400 steps per rotation.

pleanty strong enough for light wood routing, very light aluminum 
milling and more than enough for a drilling machine.

Stepper motors are rated for voltage and amps.

You can run them at rated voltage for minimal power, or use a chopper 
style driver and use a MUCH higher voltage.  using 20 times the 
nameplate is very common.  in fact if you check a data sheet, your 5 
volt motor will show performance with a 48 V power supply.

Of drilling only considder a solenoid for the Z axis.  for routing, 
you can use a solenoid or leadscrew, but for milling, you need to use 
a very solid machine.  adds to the complexity and cost.  and that is 
one reason I am interested in a drill only version.

HTHs

and please post more questions.  we all need to review.

Dave

>
> The first answer is usually a question.  what is the size of the load you 
> want to move ?
>
> if all you are doing is a drilling platform, then your little motors are 
> probably good enough.
>
> Remember the loads to move a board are not much different than to move a 
> printer head.
>
> I am not a motor expert, but have figured out that there are mainly two 
> versions of stepper motors.
>
> the pressed can style.  these are the ones you find in small printers and 
> such.
>
> then there are the NEMA rated ones.  NEMA17 is 1.7 inches square on the 
> mounting plate
>
> NEMA23 are 2.3 inches square and NEMA34 are 3.4 inches square.
>
> a NEMA23 is common in laser printers are other machines so you should be 
> able to find them as surplus for not too much money.
>
> Often 200 steps per rotation, with half stepping, you get a decent 400 
> steps per rotation.
>
> pleanty strong enough for light wood routing, very light aluminum milling 
> and more than enough for a drilling machine.
>
> Stepper motors are rated for voltage and amps.
>
> You can run them at rated voltage for minimal power, or use a chopper 
> style driver and use a MUCH higher voltage.  using 20 times the nameplate 
> is very common.  in fact if you check a data sheet, your 5 volt motor 
> will show performance with a 48 V power supply.
>
> Of drilling only considder a solenoid for the Z axis.  for routing, you 
> can use a solenoid or leadscrew, but for milling, you need to use a very 
> solid machine.  adds to the complexity and cost.  and that is one reason 
> I am interested in a drill only version.
>
> HTHs
>
> and please post more questions.  we all need to review.
>
> Dave
>
>
thank you very much for the NEMA description...
forget about the pressed can motors, i have plenty but obviously they are 
too weak..
but i too have some NEMA like motors... (what stands NEMA for?)
they measure only 55mm at the mounting plate (also 55mm diameter on the 
round section).
this is about 2.16 inches (how can you live with these units..... ;-) )

so this is ~nema23.

the motors are labeled "astrosyn miniangle stepper", type 23LM-c349-01, 
6,8V (2 of them, 5V the third) 0,75A, 1,8Deg/Step
MINEBA co., ltd.

I found no datasheet for the c349 but in general these motors seem 
common...

As i have them, for free, now, i will use them...
But i may upgrade later because they are not as big as i thought
the motors should be....

I played around with steppers some years ago, i read "control of stepping 
motors, a tutorial, Douglas W. Jones"
(find easy with google - not a book, to read online...)
I only built the very simple circuits, but the document also covers driving 
faster and at higher power (if i remember correct)..
i will read it again...

Can these motors drive the threaded rods direct?
I don't want gears or belts.....


You got me to finally give up the plan of making "the perfect machine" now.
I will make a unit from what i have, as cheap as possible.

I have the motors, for Rails steel square tubing will serve for now.
Some allthreads (metric) must be standing in some corner too...

The bearings, i don't think i have enough of them. I will get some abec 
from the sports shop...

I also have to make the control electronics. should be no problem at all.

Will look what is available....

I have four STK6982 (ecg1736) stepper driver ICs... maybe i can use them?
they drove the motors in the printers from which i took all the stuff out..
there was also a power supply in (switched) which is adjustable up to 50 
volts or so...

seems hard to get a datasheet for them.. (was a thread about also in 
cad_cam_edm_dro)..
will see what i can do...


thanks for the hints, now i have to do some reading....

st

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> I see..
> all say: most important: KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Absolutely.

> It just hapens i have some of this Molybdenum grease (in a spray can)
> here. So i will use it.

Give it a try.  For what it's worth, moly grease is good for lots of
stuff.  I didn't have any tapping fluid, and needed to tap about 30 holes
in some 1/4" steel plate (5-6mm).  Turns out moly grease makes a great
tapping compound.  It's just messy messy messy.

> The motors, again...
>
> I wonder wich power the steppers should have.
> 200 steps is ok?

200 steps per rev should be fine.  If you wind up with a microstepping
driver, all the better.  Regarding microstepping drivers:  Unless the
driver has been tuned for the particular motor you're using, don't expect
the microstepping to give you more positional accuracy.  It will, however,
make for smoother motion.

> Most motors are rated in volt / ampere.... I know it would be better to
> compare them by N/m but the ones i have are not labeled in torqe...

That's a shame they're not rated by torque.  You can always measure this,
though.  Mount the motor to your workbench (clamp, screws, whatever), and
mount an arm on the shaft of the motor.  Hang weights at a fixed distance
out on the shaft while the motor is energized.  When you can get it to
slip, you know the holding torque of the motor.  Measuring the torque of a
moving motor is a little trickier, but for a first-pass measurement the
holding torque works well.

> I have some, but they are too small i think... So please anybody having
> firsthand experience please tell me what is needed.

You can use the same trick to find out how big a motor to mount on your
machine, but it means you need to build the machine first:  Stick an arm
on the leadscrew and start hanging weights.  When you can just get the
leadscrew to rotate, you know the minimum torque necessary to move the
thing.  If possible, get a motor with at least four times the holding
torque, preferably larger.

> I also wonder if the main axis should be driven by one or two motors. If
> there is only one motor the screw is centered. or two screws are coupled
> by tooth belt...  isn't there the problem of carriage skew if the
> spindle is centered and the load applied on one side only?

Yes there is.  There is also the problem of skew if the belt slips.  A
toothed belt should not slip, but it does happen for a variety of reasons.
Unfortunately this has happened on a machine at work.  Luckily nothing was
hurt.  If you go this route, you can always rig up motor kill switches
that engage if the bridge skews.

Tom

(what stands NEMA for?)

National Electrical Manufacturers Association


> Can these motors drive the threaded rods direct?

YES



The nice thing about having a standard for motors, NEMA23 or 
otherwise is that you can get a larger, more powerful motor and it 
will fit in directly.

as a kinda-sorta general rule of thumb, a round body NEMA23 motor 
that is roughly 2.3 inches long is a SINGLE STACK  and has about 50-
oz in toruque.

a unit that is about 5 inches long and round body is about 100 in-oz 
torque.

The newer motors have a more square body, not round and are often 
much higher tourque.


And look on the net for drivers.

the linistepper seems a board that fits our group nicely.
also, check the Allegro A3977 chip.  very simple.

Dave

> And look on the net for drivers.
>
> the linistepper seems a board that fits our group nicely.
> also, check the Allegro A3977 chip.  very simple.
>
> Dave
>

I will not buy a kit/module for stepper control!

But i would have these four STK6982 Drivers...
They must be suited to drive these motors (they did it before).
Unfortunately they are a bit old... and the only datasheet i get is 
japanese...

They have current limit, and high drive voltage.

I just found the second pritner control board..
on this board the 2 drivers are still in place (i took parts from the 
other).

the rest of the circuit is intact..

i hope to be able with the pictures in the japanese datasheet and this pcb 
to find out more...
i have a pinout too...

But i have still no idea if they are chopper mode, or not..
(there are strange pictures in the datasheet...)

If you want to take a look...
http://service.semic.sanyo.co.jp/semi/dis_pdf_j/STK6982.pdf

prepare your japanese reading ;-)


I read the jones document again, decided microstepping is not needed now...

but high voltage drive is needed, thus current limit required.
I don't insist on chopper....


stefan

Hello,
I just created a folder in the photo section called 'Henrik Olsson' and
placed a photo of the first CNC machine I made. It worked OK for drilling
PCB and very light engraving in plastics. But to route/cut/mill ANY metall
with this machine is way out of its league. I used ACME threads and NEMA23
motors with homebuildt drives (schematic and bordlayout free, just ask). But
due to the flimsy drawerslides it vibrated BADLY at some speeds. For a
drilling only machine I can recomend drawerslides of the beefier kind.

    /Henrik Olsson.
     Sweden.


----- Original Message -----

From: "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 9:08 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: HomeBrew CNC machine motors


> (what stands NEMA for?)
>
> National Electrical Manufacturers Association
>
>
> > Can these motors drive the threaded rods direct?
>
> YES
>
>
>
> The nice thing about having a standard for motors, NEMA23 or
> otherwise is that you can get a larger, more powerful motor and it
> will fit in directly.
>
> as a kinda-sorta general rule of thumb, a round body NEMA23 motor
> that is roughly 2.3 inches long is a SINGLE STACK  and has about 50-
> oz in toruque.
>
> a unit that is about 5 inches long and round body is about 100 in-oz
> torque.
>
> The newer motors have a more square body, not round and are often
> much higher tourque.
>
>
> And look on the net for drivers.
>
> the linistepper seems a board that fits our group nicely.
> also, check the Allegro A3977 chip.  very simple.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hello folks!

Somebody have some documentation from JEDEC or IPC
about footprint specs and naming standards?

Thanx in advance for any support

Best regards

Xtian Xultz

it is pure phase step mode 
a  a- b  b-
0  0  0  1
0  0  1  0
0  1  0  0
1  0  0  0 
full step mode 
i think you could put a l297 translator in front for step/dir and 
full/half step mode
http://www.allelectronics.com/spec/L297.pdf

gr. Roel 
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> > And look on the net for drivers.
> >
> > the linistepper seems a board that fits our group nicely.
> > also, check the Allegro A3977 chip.  very simple.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> 
> I will not buy a kit/module for stepper control!
> 
> But i would have these four STK6982 Drivers...
> They must be suited to drive these motors (they did it before).
> Unfortunately they are a bit old... and the only datasheet i get is 
> japanese...
> 
> They have current limit, and high drive voltage.
> 
> I just found the second pritner control board..
> on this board the 2 drivers are still in place (i took parts from 
the 
> other).
> 
> the rest of the circuit is intact..
> 
> i hope to be able with the pictures in the japanese datasheet and 
this pcb 
> to find out more...
> i have a pinout too...
> 
> But i have still no idea if they are chopper mode, or not..
> (there are strange pictures in the datasheet...)
> 
> If you want to take a look...
> http://service.semic.sanyo.co.jp/semi/dis_pdf_j/STK6982.pdf
> 
> prepare your japanese reading ;-)
> 
> 
> I read the jones document again, decided microstepping is not 
needed now...

> 
> but high voltage drive is needed, thus current limit required.
> I don't insist on chopper....
> 
> 
> stefan

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:21:54 -0000, roel_cnc <atmel@...> wrote:

> it is pure phase step mode a  a-b  b-
> 0  0  0  1
> 0  0  1  0
> 0  1  0  0
> 1  0  0  0 full step mode i think you could put a l297 translator in 
> front for step/dir and full/half step mode
> http://www.allelectronics.com/spec/L297.pdf
>
> gr. Roel

I see there are dozens of possibilities.

But still i want to use the stk6982.
I will not give it up without a good reason...

If someone has old Philips Databooks, please look for
ECG1736, this is the same part...

Any information is very welcome...

thanks

st

> But still i want to use the stk6982.
> I will not give it up without a good reason...


http://www.schematicsforfree.com/misc_circuits/Controlling_Stepper_Mot
ors.pdf

> I will not buy a kit/module for stepper control!


DON'T !

The Linistepper site offers the schematic and PIC program for free.

they offer the parts for sale if you want to take the easy way, or 
you can do it 100% home-brew !

well, not 100% unless you make your own chips.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Henrik Olsson" <henrik-
olsson@t...> wrote:
> Hello,
> I just created a folder in the photo section called 'Henrik Olsson' 
and
> placed a photo of the first CNC machine I made. It worked OK for 
drilling
> PCB and very light engraving in plastics. But to route/cut/mill ANY 
metall
> with this machine is way out of its league. I used ACME threads and 
NEMA23
> motors with homebuildt drives (schematic and bordlayout free, just 
ask). But
> due to the flimsy drawerslides it vibrated BADLY at some speeds. 
For a
> drilling only machine I can recomend drawerslides of the beefier 
kind.
> 
>     /Henrik Olsson.
>      Sweden.


Excelent project!  thanks for showing it to us.

drawer slides are a deffinate alternative to lineral components.  and 
probably good enought for 95% of the drilling requirements.

Dave

Old Apple Imagewriter II dot matrix printers have a NEMA 23 motor,
rated at 5V (forgot what the current is) and via a balance I tested
several to 60oz-in holding torque. So I've been collecting cheap and
free Imagewriter II printers...

They also have a nice 28V transformer at several amps, great to drive
these motors with resistive or PWM current limiting for better torque
at speed.

I think Stefan asked about using two steppers to move an axis or using
a belt/gear to couple both sides. I'd use two steppers, as you get a
lot more torque. Otherwise you may find most of your torque eaten up
in moving two screws. And these little buggers are certainly cheap
enough if you look.

However, you do have to worry about the possibility of one side
skipping a step if the load is too high, and then causing binding.
Shouldn't be a problem with a drill only machine.

Steve Greenfield

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:51:50 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:

>
>> But still i want to use the stk6982.
>> I will not give it up without a good reason...
>
>
> http://www.schematicsforfree.com/misc_circuits/Controlling_Stepper_Mot
> ors.pdf
>
>

Thanks for the pdf Dave, i fear I had it already...
It doesn't say too much (the pinout....).


sorry about the linistepper..
i will have a look at the page again, i just saw the kits for sale and went 
away...

i worked with pic in the past, so programming is no problem..

The page seems offline at the moment...
Will try later..

st

-- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 21:51:50 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >> But still i want to use the stk6982.
> >> I will not give it up without a good reason...
> >
> >
> > 
http://www.schematicsforfree.com/misc_circuits/Controlling_Stepper_Mot
> > ors.pdf
> >
> >
> 
> Thanks for the pdf Dave, i fear I had it already...
> It doesn't say too much (the pinout....).
> 
> 
> sorry about the linistepper..
> i will have a look at the page again, i just saw the kits for sale 
and went 
> away...
> 
> i worked with pic in the past, so programming is no problem..
> 
> The page seems offline at the moment...
> Will try later..
> 
> st


Guess this not very useful either.  not real data on how to use it.

STK6982B - ECG1736

Four phase constant current step motor driver.  
Vcc: 24 V, Il: 1.5 A typ. 
18 pin SIP.

Pin 1: Vcc
Pin 2: Motor A common
Pin 3: Diode
Pin 4: Motor A
Pin 5: Input A
Pin 6: Motor A low
Pin 7: Low Input A
Pin 8: Re1
Pin 9: V ref
Pin 10: Ground
Pin 11: V ref
Pin 12: Re2
Pin 13: Motor B
Pin 14: Input B
Pin 15: Moto B low
Pin 16: Low B Input
Pin 17: Motor B common
Pin 18: Pause

Dave

> Guess this not very useful either.  not real data on how to use it.
>
> STK6982B - ECG1736
>
> Four phase constant current step motor driver.  Vcc: 24 V, Il: 1.5 A typ. 
> 18 pin SIP.
>
> Pin 1: Vcc
> Pin 2: Motor A common
> Pin 3: Diode
> Pin 4: Motor A
> Pin 5: Input A
> Pin 6: Motor A low
> Pin 7: Low Input A
> Pin 8: Re1
> Pin 9: V ref
> Pin 10: Ground
> Pin 11: V ref
> Pin 12: Re2
> Pin 13: Motor B
> Pin 14: Input B
> Pin 15: Moto B low
> Pin 16: Low B Input
> Pin 17: Motor B common
> Pin 18: Pause
>
> Dave
>
>
The pinout again....
Thanks..

If you ever need pinouts for older components (new also but you can pdf 
datasheets for those)
download this software:
ftp://ftp.burosch.de/public/ic-datenbank/ICZIP.ZIP

it is a dos programm (ready to run under XP) which has a huge amount of ics 
stored.
I often found pinouts there where google has had no single hit..
(it is focused on audio/video components but offers much more, it knows the 
stepper controller pinout..)

It has a lot of transistors also stored, practical if you only need max. 
current, voltage and ~hfe....


see the linistep page is up and running again... now i can check it out..


st

the linistepper looks very interesting..

sure a very good choice if microstepping is needed...

Maybe i will build it, some day.. but i think i may set up something with 
parts
i have for now.

(with turobcnc it should be well possible to make it work with 4 
transistors/motor each wired directly to the parallel port (well a bunch of 
resistors may be a good idea...))

sure this is not the best way but maybe the fastest built...


st