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Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-24 by jwdufass

OK team, I have an Epilog Helix laser (http://www.www.epiloglaser.com).  While this can't etch the copper off a PCB, it can do a very nice job of etching coatings off of copper, down to a VERY fine resolution.

Question is:  What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board that will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).

Ideally, the coating could also serve as a solder mask, and the process could go something like this:

* Coat the copper
* Reverse lase the board to remove the coating
* Etch
* Optionally re-coat (or clean and coat with a different substance)
* Lase to remove coating from copper pads

Any thoughts?

John R.
Beaver Dam, WisCOWnsin

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-28 by Matthew Andrews

On 12/24/10 9:48 AM, jwdufass wrote:
>  
>
> OK team, I have an Epilog Helix laser
> (http://www.www.epiloglaser.com). While this can't etch the copper off
> a PCB, it can do a very nice job of etching coatings off of copper,
> down to a VERY fine resolution.
>
> Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board
> that will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).
>
> Ideally, the coating could also serve as a solder mask, and the
> process could go something like this:
>
> * Coat the copper
> * Reverse lase the board to remove the coating
> * Etch
> * Optionally re-coat (or clean and coat with a different substance)
> * Lase to remove coating from copper pads
>
> Any thoughts?
>
I don't have any particular experience, but have seen a few
instructables on this, and similar posts online, a quick google search
should turn up some ideas. I'd be interested to hear any results you may
have as you experiment with this, as I have just recently joined
TechShop here in San Francisco where I have access to several of these
Epilog laser systems. I've bee curious about the possibilities wrt PCB
etching.

-Matt

> John R.
> Beaver Dam, WisCOWnsin
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-28 by Andrew Villeneuve

Like Matthew, I don't have any direct experience, but there are documented
tutorials online of this working very well...I think the one I watched even
concerned an Epilog, using some common form of black paint.

I recall it being important to configure the tool path for the laser to
start on the end of the board that was furthest from the vacuum outlet of
the cutting area, and then working towards it. This was to prevent the
vaporized paint particles from redepositing on the already-exposed parts of
the board.

Lucky you for having access to such a powerful tool...I love to hear how it
works out!

-Andrew

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 12:48 PM, jwdufass <chiphead@...> wrote:

>
>
> OK team, I have an Epilog Helix laser (http://www.www.epiloglaser.com).
> While this can't etch the copper off a PCB, it can do a very nice job of
> etching coatings off of copper, down to a VERY fine resolution.
>
> Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board that
> will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).
>
> Ideally, the coating could also serve as a solder mask, and the process
> could go something like this:
>
> * Coat the copper
> * Reverse lase the board to remove the coating
> * Etch
> * Optionally re-coat (or clean and coat with a different substance)
> * Lase to remove coating from copper pads
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> John R.
> Beaver Dam, WisCOWnsin
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-29 by Chiphead

Thanks Andrew and Matt,

 

I've seen the paint process, and was hoping to find an alternate material.
Nothing against paint, it's cheap and easy, but can be a tad on the messy
side.  There also seems to be a widespread want of something better, but I
haven't seen any solutions yet (still digging).

 

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Andrew Villeneuve
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 12:21 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

 

  

Like Matthew, I don't have any direct experience, but there are documented
tutorials online of this working very well...I think the one I watched even
concerned an Epilog, using some common form of black paint.

I recall it being important to configure the tool path for the laser to
start on the end of the board that was furthest from the vacuum outlet of
the cutting area, and then working towards it. This was to prevent the
vaporized paint particles from redepositing on the already-exposed parts of
the board.

Lucky you for having access to such a powerful tool...I love to hear how it
works out!

-Andrew






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-29 by hotsnausage

We've been using the paint method to do boards for a few months now, and it's been working pretty well.  If you need top-notch detail, then you need to go with a photoresist solution.  10mil/10mil is pretty easy to do repeatably.

The key thing to remember that the laser is about 8mil wide.  This will affect the width of the traces and isolation that you lay out, because you'd end up with less and more, respectively.

We have noticed the re-adhesion behavior mentioned below, but if you reduce the paint to the minimum needed for coverage, the amount of airborne burnt-off paint will be correspondingly reduced.  Burning from the far side of the board probably couldn't hurt.  We clean lasered boards gently with IPA and a cotton ball before etching.

We've gone from bare copper clad board to etched-undrilled in about 30 minutes with fresh etchant (FeCl).  Assuming that you have access to a laser printer, the ease+cost can't be beat (you might be able to do cheaper by hand-drawing or plotting with a resist pen though).  But you won't be running two traces in between 0.1"-centered holes either, so there's still a place for photoresist in the world.

We haven't done any soldermasking, but if you find something that works well for you, let us all know.

-eric

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-29 by Mark Lerman

Very interesting. Assuming your limiting factor is the beam width, 
can you focus the laser to a smaller width? On ebay I see CO2 lasers 
for engraving at $1600 with shipping that might do.
Mark


At 09:00 AM 12/29/2010, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>We've been using the paint method to do boards for a few months now, 
>and it's been working pretty well.  If you need top-notch detail, 
>then you need to go with a photoresist solution.  10mil/10mil is 
>pretty easy to do repeatably.
>
>The key thing to remember that the laser is about 8mil wide.  This 
>will affect the width of the traces and isolation that you lay out, 
>because you'd end up with less and more, respectively.
>
>We have noticed the re-adhesion behavior mentioned below, but if you 
>reduce the paint to the minimum needed for coverage, the amount of 
>airborne burnt-off paint will be correspondingly reduced.  Burning 
>from the far side of the board probably couldn't hurt.  We clean 
>lasered boards gently with IPA and a cotton ball before etching.
>
>We've gone from bare copper clad board to etched-undrilled in about 
>30 minutes with fresh etchant (FeCl).  Assuming that you have access 
>to a laser printer, the ease+cost can't be beat (you might be able 
>to do cheaper by hand-drawing or plotting with a resist pen 
>though).  But you won't be running two traces in between 
>0.1"-centered holes either, so there's still a place for photoresist 
>in the world.
>
>We haven't done any soldermasking, but if you find something that 
>works well for you, let us all know.
>
>-eric
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-29 by Mark Lerman

I don't know a whole lot about lasers, so forgive my ignorance. Is 
there another type of laser than CO2 that will work for this purpose? 
These CO2 lasers seem mostly to be for engraving whereas just cutting 
through a very thin layer of paint wouldn't seem to require so much 
power, especially since the time isn't critical. I have a cnc mill 
that I'd like to mount a laser on, but I'd really prefer a small 
solid state laser if possible.

Mark


At 09:00 AM 12/29/2010, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>We've been using the paint method to do boards for a few months now, 
>and it's been working pretty well.  If you need top-notch detail, 
>then you need to go with a photoresist solution.  10mil/10mil is 
>pretty easy to do repeatably.
>
>The key thing to remember that the laser is about 8mil wide.  This 
>will affect the width of the traces and isolation that you lay out, 
>because you'd end up with less and more, respectively.
>
>We have noticed the re-adhesion behavior mentioned below, but if you 
>reduce the paint to the minimum needed for coverage, the amount of 
>airborne burnt-off paint will be correspondingly reduced.  Burning 
>from the far side of the board probably couldn't hurt.  We clean 
>lasered boards gently with IPA and a cotton ball before etching.
>
>We've gone from bare copper clad board to etched-undrilled in about 
>30 minutes with fresh etchant (FeCl).  Assuming that you have access 
>to a laser printer, the ease+cost can't be beat (you might be able 
>to do cheaper by hand-drawing or plotting with a resist pen 
>though).  But you won't be running two traces in between 
>0.1"-centered holes either, so there's still a place for photoresist 
>in the world.
>
>We haven't done any soldermasking, but if you find something that 
>works well for you, let us all know.
>
>-eric
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-29 by Andrew Villeneuve

I've heard that the diode lasers in consumer DVD-R drives can pop
balloons...I'm not an expert, but it seems feasible that it could evaporate
a thin layer of paint with a slow enough pass.

In fact, it'd already be mounted on a single axis of movement with
absolutely overkill resolution, with a fairly sophisticated dynamically
adjustable lens assembly.  Hmmm...

-Andrew

On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I don't know a whole lot about lasers, so forgive my ignorance. Is
> there another type of laser than CO2 that will work for this purpose?
> These CO2 lasers seem mostly to be for engraving whereas just cutting
> through a very thin layer of paint wouldn't seem to require so much
> power, especially since the time isn't critical. I have a cnc mill
> that I'd like to mount a laser on, but I'd really prefer a small
> solid state laser if possible.
>
>
> Mark
>
> At 09:00 AM 12/29/2010, you wrote:
> >We've been using the paint method to do boards for a few months now,
> >and it's been working pretty well. If you need top-notch detail,
> >then you need to go with a photoresist solution. 10mil/10mil is
> >pretty easy to do repeatably.
> >
> >The key thing to remember that the laser is about 8mil wide. This
> >will affect the width of the traces and isolation that you lay out,
> >because you'd end up with less and more, respectively.
> >
> >We have noticed the re-adhesion behavior mentioned below, but if you
> >reduce the paint to the minimum needed for coverage, the amount of
> >airborne burnt-off paint will be correspondingly reduced. Burning
> >from the far side of the board probably couldn't hurt. We clean
> >lasered boards gently with IPA and a cotton ball before etching.
> >
> >We've gone from bare copper clad board to etched-undrilled in about
> >30 minutes with fresh etchant (FeCl). Assuming that you have access
> >to a laser printer, the ease+cost can't be beat (you might be able
> >to do cheaper by hand-drawing or plotting with a resist pen
> >though). But you won't be running two traces in between
> >0.1"-centered holes either, so there's still a place for photoresist
> >in the world.
> >
> >We haven't done any soldermasking, but if you find something that
> >works well for you, let us all know.
> >
> >-eric
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
>
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Chiphead

If I were to try and go this route, I'd suggest going with a BluRay laser if
you could, or at a minimum a drive that supports LightScribe.  (more power)

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Andrew Villeneuve
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:39 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

I've heard that the diode lasers in consumer DVD-R drives can pop
balloons...I'm not an expert, but it seems feasible that it could evaporate
a thin layer of paint with a slow enough pass.

In fact, it'd already be mounted on a single axis of movement with
absolutely overkill resolution, with a fairly sophisticated dynamically
adjustable lens assembly.  Hmmm...

-Andrew
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I don't know a whole lot about lasers, so forgive my ignorance. Is 
> there another type of laser than CO2 that will work for this purpose?
> These CO2 lasers seem mostly to be for engraving whereas just cutting 
> through a very thin layer of paint wouldn't seem to require so much 
> power, especially since the time isn't critical. I have a cnc mill 
> that I'd like to mount a laser on, but I'd really prefer a small solid 
> state laser if possible.
>
>
> Mark

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by kabowers@NorthState.net

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 21:12:46 -0600, you wrote:

>
>     I ran an epilog 100 watt machine in the late 90's, basically had it 
>dropped in my lap at my job. During initial testing I even engraved 1/8" 
>lettering into a fig newton. This is exactly the sort of project I'd have 
>been given then.
>
>     The answers to your question may be approaching this from the wrong 
>direction.
>
>> Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board that
>> will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).
>
>     I didn't send anything to be etched, but guys (& gals?), just take 
>the question straight:
>
>     What's the easiest etching resist to apply?
>
>     It doesn't have to be a photo-resist, just something that will live 
>through the etching process - an etch-block. Laquer? Auto primer? Asphalt?
>
>     Once John applies it, then he can see what power and speed is 
>required to reliably remove it. Even if it's a spray-on that tends to 
>run, as long as it's not fused glass the laser should be able to remove 
>it. He just seems to be looking for the easiest one to apply to the board.
>
>>There also seems to be a widespread want of something better, but I
>>haven't seen any solutions yet (still digging).
>
>     Something better/easier than spraying or brushing it on? Of course 
>there's dipping, but that's no better. Some sort of tape maybe? Is there 
>a tape that will survive a trip through an etching bath? Of course, then 
>there's the difference between cleanly ashing the tape (raster cut...) 
>and having to edge cut it all and hand-strip it. If any remaining 
>particles are small enough the etchant will undercut them, so there's a 
>point where they'll be negligible.
>
>     yeah, my kinda problem... Oh, and feeding the machine CorelDraw 
>files worked much better than AutoCad files, I finally ended up just 
>redrawing everything in CorelDraw (true single lines).
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
Could you maybe do an addictive process?

I wonder what would happen if you spread a film of loose toner over 
the board and then used the laser to melt it where you wanted traces. 
Then dust the board off and etch. Might want a second heating with a high
intensity lamp or some such to more firmly fuse the toner to the copper.

I suspect this type of process would require a lot less energy than vaporizing
something. It would also get away from possible problems of the copper reflecting
the laser beam back into the laser and damaging it. IIRC copper is a really
great reflector of infrared energy.
Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Donald H Locker

How about an isolation process, but etch the unwanted copper away instead of mechanically milling it?  The laser would only need to remove sufficient resist to form the isolation channels in that case.  A very small amount.

Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: kabowers@...
> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:28:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)
> 
> On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 21:12:46 -0600, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >     I ran an epilog 100 watt machine in the late 90's, basically had
> it 
> >dropped in my lap at my job. During initial testing I even engraved
> 1/8" 
> >lettering into a fig newton. This is exactly the sort of project I'd
> have 
> >been given then.
> >
> >     The answers to your question may be approaching this from the
> wrong 
> >direction.
> >
> >> Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board
> that
> >> will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).
> >
> >     I didn't send anything to be etched, but guys (& gals?), just
> take 
> >the question straight:
> >
> >     What's the easiest etching resist to apply?
> >
> >     It doesn't have to be a photo-resist, just something that will
> live 
> >through the etching process - an etch-block. Laquer? Auto primer?
> Asphalt?
> >
> >     Once John applies it, then he can see what power and speed is 
> >required to reliably remove it. Even if it's a spray-on that tends to
> 
> >run, as long as it's not fused glass the laser should be able to
> remove 
> >it. He just seems to be looking for the easiest one to apply to the
> board.
> >
> >>There also seems to be a widespread want of something better, but I
> >>haven't seen any solutions yet (still digging).
> >
> >     Something better/easier than spraying or brushing it on? Of
> course 
> >there's dipping, but that's no better. Some sort of tape maybe? Is
> there 
> >a tape that will survive a trip through an etching bath? Of course,
> then 
> >there's the difference between cleanly ashing the tape (raster
> cut...) 
> >and having to edge cut it all and hand-strip it. If any remaining 
> >particles are small enough the etchant will undercut them, so there's
> a 
> >point where they'll be negligible.
> >
> >     yeah, my kinda problem... Oh, and feeding the machine CorelDraw
> 
> >files worked much better than AutoCad files, I finally ended up just
> 
> >redrawing everything in CorelDraw (true single lines).
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> Could you maybe do an addictive process?
> 
> I wonder what would happen if you spread a film of loose toner over 
> the board and then used the laser to melt it where you wanted traces.
> 
> Then dust the board off and etch. Might want a second heating with a
> high
> intensity lamp or some such to more firmly fuse the toner to the
> copper.
> 
> I suspect this type of process would require a lot less energy than
> vaporizing
> something. It would also get away from possible problems of the copper
> reflecting
> the laser beam back into the laser and damaging it. IIRC copper is a
> really
> great reflector of infrared energy.
> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by garydeal

I ran an epilog 100 watt machine in the late 90's, basically had it 
dropped in my lap at my job. During initial testing I even engraved 1/8" 
lettering into a fig newton. This is exactly the sort of project I'd have 
been given then.

     The answers to your question may be approaching this from the wrong 
direction.

> Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board that
> will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).

     I didn't send anything to be etched, but guys (& gals?), just take 
the question straight:

     What's the easiest etching resist to apply?

     It doesn't have to be a photo-resist, just something that will live 
through the etching process - an etch-block. Laquer? Auto primer? Asphalt?

     Once John applies it, then he can see what power and speed is 
required to reliably remove it. Even if it's a spray-on that tends to 
run, as long as it's not fused glass the laser should be able to remove 
it. He just seems to be looking for the easiest one to apply to the board.

>There also seems to be a widespread want of something better, but I
>haven't seen any solutions yet (still digging).

     Something better/easier than spraying or brushing it on? Of course 
there's dipping, but that's no better. Some sort of tape maybe? Is there 
a tape that will survive a trip through an etching bath? Of course, then 
there's the difference between cleanly ashing the tape (raster cut...) 
and having to edge cut it all and hand-strip it. If any remaining 
particles are small enough the etchant will undercut them, so there's a 
point where they'll be negligible.

     yeah, my kinda problem... Oh, and feeding the machine CorelDraw 
files worked much better than AutoCad files, I finally ended up just 
redrawing everything in CorelDraw (true single lines).

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Andrew Villeneuve

This is a brilliant idea - it also solves the problem of vaporized resist
redepositing on the board.

Has anyone tried anything like this?

-Andrew

On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:28 PM, <kabowers@...> wrote:

>
> Could you maybe do an addictive process?
>
> I wonder what would happen if you spread a film of loose toner over
> the board and then used the laser to melt it where you wanted traces.
> Then dust the board off and etch. Might want a second heating with a high
> intensity lamp or some such to more firmly fuse the toner to the copper.
>
> I suspect this type of process would require a lot less energy than
> vaporizing
> something. It would also get away from possible problems of the copper
> reflecting
> the laser beam back into the laser and damaging it. IIRC copper is a really
> great reflector of infrared energy.
> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by kabowers@NorthState.net

Another thought:
Is the laser from a laser printer strong enough to melt toner in an 
application like this? To achieve 600+ DPI they have to be rather tightly
focused and if the warning labels have any relationship to
reality they are fairly potent devices. Remember in printers the laser
bleeds charge off the drum and doesn't intentionally heat anything.
but it does pass over any given pixel quite rapidly.

--------------------
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 22:27:06 -0500, you wrote:

>This is a brilliant idea - it also solves the problem of vaporized resist
>redepositing on the board.
>
>Has anyone tried anything like this?
>
>-Andrew
>
>On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:28 PM, <kabowers@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> Could you maybe do an addictive process?
>>
>> I wonder what would happen if you spread a film of loose toner over
>> the board and then used the laser to melt it where you wanted traces.
>> Then dust the board off and etch. Might want a second heating with a high
>> intensity lamp or some such to more firmly fuse the toner to the copper.
>>
>> I suspect this type of process would require a lot less energy than
>> vaporizing
>> something. It would also get away from possible problems of the copper
>> reflecting
>> the laser beam back into the laser and damaging it. IIRC copper is a really
>> great reflector of infrared energy.
>> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Andrew

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, kabowers@... wrote:

> Could you maybe do an addictive process?
> 
> I wonder what would happen if you spread a film of loose toner over 
> the board and then used the laser to melt it where you wanted traces. 
> Then dust the board off and etch. Might want a second heating with a high
> intensity lamp or some such to more firmly fuse the toner to the copper.

I will be interested to hear some expert opinions on this. I suspect there will be two problems: 1) Getting the toner to stay on the board in a suitably dense but even layer -- seems like that would require charging the board and the toner, somewhat like what happens in a laser printer, but now trying to do it out in the open. 2) The laser will heat the toner rather than the board. Getting the beam strength/time just right to heat rather than vaporize might be tricky (? or not? I don't know enough to predict), but even if you get it just right to where the toner melts without vaporizing, the board underneath it will not necessarily be hot, so will the toner necessarily stick to the board?

I certainly may be wrong on either or both of these points, of course! Again, I am interested to hear what the experts say ... or to hear about someone's experiments.

But even if it does work ... I wonder if the end result is going to be any faster/more satisfactory than toner transfer, particularly if the laser can't get finer than 8 mil.

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by DmitriA

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>
>
> I don't know a whole lot about lasers, so forgive my ignorance. Is
> there another type of laser than CO2 that will work for this purpose?
> These CO2 lasers seem mostly to be for engraving whereas just cutting
> through a very thin layer of paint wouldn't seem to require so much
> power, especially since the time isn't critical. I have a cnc mill
> that I'd like to mount a laser on, but I'd really prefer a small
> solid state laser if possible.
>
> Mark
>
Mark, this may not be a direct answer to your question but just to
illustrate how much power is available from a DVD burner's laser diode
(spoiler: not much), I've done some write up and a video on cutting 2mm
(3mm if black only) craft foam with a 200mW 650nm (visible red) laser
diode mounted on a CNC router here

http://elabz.com/laser-cutting-diy/ 
<http://elabz.com/laser-cutting-diy/%20>

Given that you'll have to evaporate some surface area as opposed to
cutting a very thin line, I'd say the process will probably be
reminiscent of watching a paint dry. It's hard to tell the resolution of
(the hottest cutting part of) the beam because these things are
notoriously difficult to focus right, even those working in the visible
part of the spectrum. In my case I think it's no better than 25mil but
could be improved if better focusing technique is found.

I'm getting a 1000mW IR laser diode for this machine and focusing the
invisible IR beam will probably be the biggest challenge in the upgrade.
But if I'm successful, I should be able to report on what can be done
with more power (and, hopefully, better heat transfer afforded by longer
wavelength).

So, basically, a takeaway would be that the resist material has to be in
a *very* thin layer and it has to be opaque black for better heat
absorption and it has to have the lowest evaporation temperature
possible. Personally, I'm not yet sure what material would have to be
used and I'm probably going to have to wait for the 1000mW upgrade in
order to test something anyways.

EOT



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Chiphead

On Behalf Of kabowers@...
Another thought:
Is the laser from a laser printer strong enough to melt toner in an 
application like this? 

Unfortunately, no, the laser just puts a charge on the drum, the toner
sticks to the drum, is deposited on the paper and "fused" by a heating
element.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Chiphead

GrayDeal;

 

Thank you for helping to rephrase the question. 

 

In addition to being easier to apply than paint, there are some comments
from those doing it that you need multiple coats, and the paint isn't always
a "solid" enough of a covering, even after multiple coats.  Some feel that
auto primer works better, as it tends to "etch into" the copper and adhere
better.

 

I should be doing some testing sometime later this month.  I have a things
happening with the "day job" and just collecting information right now,
please keep the suggestions coming.

 

Some type of tape/laminate might be ideal.

 

Also, thanks for the tips on Corel vs AutoCAD.  We currently have Adobe
products, if we run into challenges, I'll check out Corel.

 

 

John

 

On Behalf Of garydeal
What's the easiest etching resist to apply?

It doesn't have to be a photo-resist, just something that will live 
through the etching process - an etch-block. Laquer? Auto primer? Asphalt?

Once John applies it, then he can see what power and speed is 
required to reliably remove it. Even if it's a spray-on that tends to 
run, as long as it's not fused glass the laser should be able to remove 
it. He just seems to be looking for the easiest one to apply to the board.

Oh, and feeding the machine CorelDraw 
files worked much better than AutoCad files, I finally ended up just 
redrawing everything in CorelDraw (true single lines).



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Larry Battraw

On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Chiphead <chiphead@...> wrote:
>
> > GrayDeal;
>
> Thank you for helping to rephrase the question.
>
> In addition to being easier to apply than paint, there are some comments
> from those doing it that you need multiple coats, and the paint isn't always
> a "solid" enough of a covering, even after multiple coats. Some feel that
> auto primer works better, as it tends to "etch into" the copper and adhere
> better.
>

I might make a suggestion here.  I was looking around at
higher-powered semiconductor lasers (deep blue/violet) and they
actually are making them in 1000mW (1W) intensities!  I've used 350mW
focused 650nm red lasers and they are sufficient to slowly melt/burn
black plastic.  With triple the power and being aimed at loose black
toner it might work.  Maybe.  My biggest concern would be that it
wouldn't stick to the copper and leave you a nice "skeleton" of fused
toner that would fall off.  I did some more digging and found an IR
laser at 2000mW (2W) for only around $248!
http://www.armlaser.com/2000mw-laser-module-2w-laser-module-p-11.html
 The site has a ton on different wavelengths and powers, and there are
a lot of sites around that sell similar stuff; it's just a matter of
finding some place that will sell to you.  The FDA has put limitations
on imports of high-powered (Above 5mW-- weak!) laser pointers, so
beware.  I would be more inclined to try and exposed photo-sensitive
UV resist with lasers than burn or cure toner, personally.  I tried it
at one point (250 mW deep blue) and it did work, but my plotter had a
terrible time turning the beam on and off correctly since it had a
force-feedback switch to tell when it hit the "paper" which I tried to
take over for switching the laser on and off.  Not good.

Larry

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Kim

I think considering the ease of use and the mess factor of using the powder paint or toner powder, it will dissuade one going that path.
As far as using the CO2 lasers the problem with paints and burning off paints is some of them leave a oily residue after burning up that is difficult to take off. It works for most applications but if you are making fine lines and want clean edges then you will want to use Asphaltum, you get it in craft shops or dickblick online. The power in a CO2 laser is adjusted by the frequency of pulses and each pulse is ON at max power. If the material vaporizes on a single pulse then no matter what low settings you have it will not work for melting and fusing.  
Keep us posted on how it goes.
Kim

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by Henry Liu

I have used a CO2 laser with Thermark with ok results.  Here is a picture on
a stainless steel knife but copper clad was the same thing (no pics):
http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=51&start=10

Thermark is a permanent bond and provides excellent solder mask.  We had to
sand off areas we wanted to solder to however.

<http://www.fullspectrumengineering.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=51&start=10>The
CO2 laser beam is diffraction limited to around .005" so .010" lines is more
realistic.

My advice is to just use inkjets if you need to etch it away anyway as it is
100x faster.

In other news, I have used a 1064nm 100W yttrium fiber laser and was able to
ablate copper directly in my experimental setup at a significantly higher
price.


On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Kim <kimvellore@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> I think considering the ease of use and the mess factor of using the powder
> paint or toner powder, it will dissuade one going that path.
> As far as using the CO2 lasers the problem with paints and burning off
> paints is some of them leave a oily residue after burning up that is
> difficult to take off. It works for most applications but if you are making
> fine lines and want clean edges then you will want to use Asphaltum, you get
> it in craft shops or dickblick online. The power in a CO2 laser is adjusted
> by the frequency of pulses and each pulse is ON at max power. If the
> material vaporizes on a single pulse then no matter what low settings you
> have it will not work for melting and fusing.
> Keep us posted on how it goes.
> Kim
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-30 by KeepIt SimpleStupid

Spin coating works well.  I used a commercial spin coater for small boards.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed Dec 29th, 2010 9:49 PM EST Donald H Locker wrote:

>How about an isolation process, but etch the unwanted copper away instead of mechanically milling it?  The laser would only need to remove sufficient resist to form the isolation channels in that case.  A very small amount.
>
>Donald.
>--
>*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
>()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
>/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>> From: kabowers@...
>> To: "Homebrew PCBs" <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:28:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)
>> 
>> On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 21:12:46 -0600, you wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >     I ran an epilog 100 watt machine in the late 90's, basically had
>> it 
>> >dropped in my lap at my job. During initial testing I even engraved
>> 1/8" 
>> >lettering into a fig newton. This is exactly the sort of project I'd
>> have 
>> >been given then.
>> >
>> >     The answers to your question may be approaching this from the
>> wrong 
>> >direction.
>> >
>> >> Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board
>> that
>> >> will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).
>> >
>> >     I didn't send anything to be etched, but guys (& gals?), just
>> take 
>> >the question straight:
>> >
>> >     What's the easiest etching resist to apply?
>> >
>> >     It doesn't have to be a photo-resist, just something that will
>> live 
>> >through the etching process - an etch-block. Laquer? Auto primer?
>> Asphalt?
>> >
>> >     Once John applies it, then he can see what power and speed is 
>> >required to reliably remove it. Even if it's a spray-on that tends to
>> 
>> >run, as long as it's not fused glass the laser should be able to
>> remove 
>> >it. He just seems to be looking for the easiest one to apply to the
>> board.
>> >
>> >>There also seems to be a widespread want of something better, but I
>> >>haven't seen any solutions yet (still digging).
>> >
>> >     Something better/easier than spraying or brushing it on? Of
>> course 
>> >there's dipping, but that's no better. Some sort of tape maybe? Is
>> there 
>> >a tape that will survive a trip through an etching bath? Of course,
>> then 
>> >there's the difference between cleanly ashing the tape (raster
>> cut...) 
>> >and having to edge cut it all and hand-strip it. If any remaining 
>> >particles are small enough the etchant will undercut them, so there's
>> a 
>> >point where they'll be negligible.
>> >
>> >     yeah, my kinda problem... Oh, and feeding the machine CorelDraw
>> 
>> >files worked much better than AutoCad files, I finally ended up just
>> 
>> >redrawing everything in CorelDraw (true single lines).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >------------------------------------
>> >
>> Could you maybe do an addictive process?
>> 
>> I wonder what would happen if you spread a film of loose toner over 
>> the board and then used the laser to melt it where you wanted traces.
>> 
>> Then dust the board off and etch. Might want a second heating with a
>> high
>> intensity lamp or some such to more firmly fuse the toner to the
>> copper.
>> 
>> I suspect this type of process would require a lot less energy than
>> vaporizing
>> something. It would also get away from possible problems of the copper
>> reflecting
>> the laser beam back into the laser and damaging it. IIRC copper is a
>> really
>> great reflector of infrared energy.
>> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------
>> 
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
>> Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>> 
>> 
>>

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-31 by hotsnausage

I don't know that much (nee, anything) about the laser.  It's a Epilog Helix, which is something in the 50mW range.  The laser is focusable, but I was told that the documentation states that the minimum beam width is 8mil.

All I know in this area is second-hand and can probably easily be verified by looking at their website.  The whole machine is probably in the $10-30K range, I'm guessing.  I don't know how many flavors it comes in, so I don't know what the cheapest cost machine in their line is that you can get away with.

I also don't know what % power we've gone with because someone else usually burns the boards.  It might be possible to go down to a lower power laser in their line.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> Very interesting. Assuming your limiting factor is the beam width, 
> can you focus the laser to a smaller width? On ebay I see CO2 lasers 
> for engraving at $1600 with shipping that might do.
> Mark

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-31 by hotsnausage

Part of the problem is that whatever material you put on to act as a resist has to maintain your resolution when it's burned.  Most sheet materials probably don't retain this property as well as something that goes on as a power or a liquid.  Tapes have a tendency to burn to a rough edge, or in the case of Kapton, melt a tiny bit.

You might try using Kapton tape and see how it goes.  It can only work if the adhesive retains its edge under the tape as it gets burned. Essentially you don't want the adhesive to be undercut/deformed under the tape surface.  Kapton isn't cheap either.

We've been using a Rust-O-leum black paint (don't remember the line of paints), but it's the one that's used for painting high-temp surfaces like stoves.  It's the one that was mentioned in the Instructable that we used as a starting point.  We haven't tried anything else because it's worked well enough.  One can is less than $4 and can probably cover at least a dozen square feet of board.  We use two light coats and try it with a heat gun after each coat.  We haven't even roughed-up the boards before hand if they're right out of the package.  Wipe them off with IPA if you can't keep your filthy fingers off the boards before painting.  IPA the burnt-off parts  lightly with a cotton ball and etch.

You can cover a square food of board with two very light coats of paint for under $0.50, 10 minutes and a little practice.

The non-obvious part of this process is that you need a negative PDF to feed to the Epilog because the black area is what's removed.  Two sided has been doable if you can align any two perpendicular edges on the cutter.

We typically measure the width of the chunk of board that we're working with and do the layout/tiling to that dimension.  Not doing this won't give you "optimal" alignment results when you flip the board over to zap the other side.
 
If you don't like the results after it comes (hot) out of the laser cutter, take off the paint with solvent or steel wool and do it again.

Assuming that you've already eaten the sunk cost of the laser cutter, I'm not sure how you can beat the combination of COTS copper clad and about $0.35 for spray paint.

Again, the resolution isn't as good as with a pre-coated photoresist board, but 8/8 to 10/10mil is pretty good for about 1/4 the cost and about the same amount of time.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board that
> > will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).
> 
>      I didn't send anything to be etched, but guys (& gals?), just take 
> the question straight:
> 
>      What's the easiest etching resist to apply?
> 
>      It doesn't have to be a photo-resist, just something that will live 
> through the etching process - an etch-block. Laquer? Auto primer? Asphalt?
> 
>      Once John applies it, then he can see what power and speed is 
> required to reliably remove it. Even if it's a spray-on that tends to 
> run, as long as it's not fused glass the laser should be able to remove 
> it. He just seems to be looking for the easiest one to apply to the board.
> 
> >There also seems to be a widespread want of something better, but I
> >haven't seen any solutions yet (still digging).
> 
>      Something better/easier than spraying or brushing it on? Of course 
> there's dipping, but that's no better. Some sort of tape maybe? Is there 
> a tape that will survive a trip through an etching bath? Of course, then 
> there's the difference between cleanly ashing the tape (raster cut...) 
> and having to edge cut it all and hand-strip it. If any remaining 
> particles are small enough the etchant will undercut them, so there's a 
> point where they'll be negligible.
> 
>      yeah, my kinda problem... Oh, and feeding the machine CorelDraw 
> files worked much better than AutoCad files, I finally ended up just 
> redrawing everything in CorelDraw (true single lines).
>

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-31 by hotsnausage

We considered doing this too.  The difficult part is getting even coverage of toner dust on the board so that you get uniform results.  I'd be concerned that anything less than great coverage is probably going to yield lousy results.  The other problem is that the ventilation in the laser cutter is going to want to blow around the toner, so you probably need some type of light adhesive to hold down the toner, and doesn't impede the toner setting process.

One method I just saw on the web was a guy that prints standard inkjet ink with a converted (to) flat-bed inkjet printer onto COTS copper clad, then dusts the board with toner, using the fresh wet ink as an adhesive for the toner.  The board is then baked in a panini press (or any reasonable substitute) to set the toner.  His results looked quite good, and gets your fixed costs down to a few hundred dollars, at the expense of higher marginal costs and more hands-on time & effort.

-e
Eric B. Wertz
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Could you maybe do an addictive process?
> 
> I wonder what would happen if you spread a film of loose toner over 
> the board and then used the laser to melt it where you wanted traces. 
> Then dust the board off and etch. Might want a second heating with a high
> intensity lamp or some such to more firmly fuse the toner to the copper.
> 
> I suspect this type of process would require a lot less energy than vaporizing
> something. It would also get away from possible problems of the copper reflecting
> the laser beam back into the laser and damaging it. IIRC copper is a really
> great reflector of infrared energy.
> Keith Bowers WB4LSJ- Thomasville, NC
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2010-12-31 by mlerman@ix.netcom.com

Two sided alignment has been solved by the people who do cnc routing of boards. They use aligmnet pins (or optical markings) on the Y axis and software to do all the work of alignment and isolating the traces. I think Eagle has a ULP for this, too. I have a cnc board router, and the biggest problem by far is the cutting - you have to change bits, they break, etc. So If I could use a laser to do the isolation I could:

paint the board
burn isolation traces with the laser on both sides
drill the boad on the cnc
etch the board
put it back on the cnc to burn away over the pads, leaving the paint as a solder mask.

I don't know if the paint would be an effective solder mask, but perhaps something else would be if paint doesn't work.

Mark


-----Original Message-----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>From: hotsnausage <hotsnausage@...>
>Sent: Dec 31, 2010 12:00 AM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)
>
>Part of the problem is that whatever material you put on to act as a resist has to maintain your resolution when it's burned.  Most sheet materials probably don't retain this property as well as something that goes on as a power or a liquid.  Tapes have a tendency to burn to a rough edge, or in the case of Kapton, melt a tiny bit.
>
>You might try using Kapton tape and see how it goes.  It can only work if the adhesive retains its edge under the tape as it gets burned. Essentially you don't want the adhesive to be undercut/deformed under the tape surface.  Kapton isn't cheap either.
>
>We've been using a Rust-O-leum black paint (don't remember the line of paints), but it's the one that's used for painting high-temp surfaces like stoves.  It's the one that was mentioned in the Instructable that we used as a starting point.  We haven't tried anything else because it's worked well enough.  One can is less than $4 and can probably cover at least a dozen square feet of board.  We use two light coats and try it with a heat gun after each coat.  We haven't even roughed-up the boards before hand if they're right out of the package.  Wipe them off with IPA if you can't keep your filthy fingers off the boards before painting.  IPA the burnt-off parts  lightly with a cotton ball and etch.
>
>You can cover a square food of board with two very light coats of paint for under $0.50, 10 minutes and a little practice.
>
>The non-obvious part of this process is that you need a negative PDF to feed to the Epilog because the black area is what's removed.  Two sided has been doable if you can align any two perpendicular edges on the cutter.
>
>We typically measure the width of the chunk of board that we're working with and do the layout/tiling to that dimension.  Not doing this won't give you "optimal" alignment results when you flip the board over to zap the other side.
> 
>If you don't like the results after it comes (hot) out of the laser cutter, take off the paint with solvent or steel wool and do it again.
>
>Assuming that you've already eaten the sunk cost of the laser cutter, I'm not sure how you can beat the combination of COTS copper clad and about $0.35 for spray paint.
>
>Again, the resolution isn't as good as with a pre-coated photoresist board, but 8/8 to 10/10mil is pretty good for about 1/4 the cost and about the same amount of time.
>
>> > Question is: What could easily be used to coat a copper clad board that
>> > will be resistant to the etchant (pick your flavor).
>> 
>>      I didn't send anything to be etched, but guys (& gals?), just take 
>> the question straight:
>> 
>>      What's the easiest etching resist to apply?
>> 
>>      It doesn't have to be a photo-resist, just something that will live 
>> through the etching process - an etch-block. Laquer? Auto primer? Asphalt?
>> 
>>      Once John applies it, then he can see what power and speed is 
>> required to reliably remove it. Even if it's a spray-on that tends to 
>> run, as long as it's not fused glass the laser should be able to remove 
>> it. He just seems to be looking for the easiest one to apply to the board.
>> 
>> >There also seems to be a widespread want of something better, but I
>> >haven't seen any solutions yet (still digging).
>> 
>>      Something better/easier than spraying or brushing it on? Of course 
>> there's dipping, but that's no better. Some sort of tape maybe? Is there 
>> a tape that will survive a trip through an etching bath? Of course, then 
>> there's the difference between cleanly ashing the tape (raster cut...) 
>> and having to edge cut it all and hand-strip it. If any remaining 
>> particles are small enough the etchant will undercut them, so there's a 
>> point where they'll be negligible.
>> 
>>      yeah, my kinda problem... Oh, and feeding the machine CorelDraw 
>> files worked much better than AutoCad files, I finally ended up just 
>> redrawing everything in CorelDraw (true single lines).
>>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2011-01-01 by hotsnausage

There's two minor problems with that workflow from my experience:

- I've found that drilling through the paint tends to drive it into the hole, and getting it out is a pain.  If you don't/can't the paint out, soldering the thru-hole lead then ends up "washing" the paint out of the hole with the molten and pollutes the solder joint.

- I'd be concerned, unwarranted or not, that by drilling through the mask, you'd risk a little undercutting (during etch) around the hole penetration.  Probably a non-issue if you've got rings/pads of any size around the drill hole.

As far as cutting being your biggest problem -- we just shear ours.  It's kind of Neanderthal, but it works well enough for us.

It seems like the paint would be a reasonable solder mask, and probably an even better surface to print on with, say, an open-faced inkjet.

Our results with alignment are adequate as it stands.  Having a jig  with pegs and pre-drilled/marked boards, all going into the laser cutter sounds like a lot more effort than reward.  If I were trying to push the process down to a primo 8mil/8mil one, then it'd probably be necessary though.  As it is now, it would seem to at least double our workflow effort.

-e

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, mlerman@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Two sided alignment has been solved by the people who do cnc routing of boards. They use aligmnet pins (or optical markings) on the Y axis and software to do all the work of alignment and isolating the traces. I think Eagle has a ULP for this, too. I have a cnc board router, and the biggest problem by far is the cutting - you have to change bits, they break, etc. So If I could use a laser to do the isolation I could:
> 
> paint the board
> burn isolation traces with the laser on both sides
> drill the boad on the cnc
> etch the board
> put it back on the cnc to burn away over the pads, leaving the paint as a solder mask.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2011-01-01 by Mark Lerman

I didn't mean cutting the board was a problem, rather it is cutting 
the isolation traces with the router that was the problem. The laser 
would solve it.  Also, to address your concerns, I could reverse the steps:

  paint the board
  burn isolation traces with the laser on both sides
  etch the board
  put it back on the cnc
  burn away over the pads, leaving the paint as a solder mask.
  drill the board

With a small diode laser cutter you would be able to use a very 
lightweight x/y table, no z axis needed, just turn the laser on and off.

I've been looking at diode lasers and appears that focusing them is 
not so easily done because they exhibit astigmatism and the beams are 
not round. In fact, some of them are square.

Mark

At 09:35 AM 1/1/2011, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>There's two minor problems with that workflow from my experience:
>
>- I've found that drilling through the paint tends to drive it into 
>the hole, and getting it out is a pain.  If you don't/can't the 
>paint out, soldering the thru-hole lead then ends up "washing" the 
>paint out of the hole with the molten and pollutes the solder joint.
>
>- I'd be concerned, unwarranted or not, that by drilling through the 
>mask, you'd risk a little undercutting (during etch) around the hole 
>penetration.  Probably a non-issue if you've got rings/pads of any 
>size around the drill hole.
>
>As far as cutting being your biggest problem -- we just shear 
>ours.  It's kind of Neanderthal, but it works well enough for us.
>
>It seems like the paint would be a reasonable solder mask, and 
>probably an even better surface to print on with, say, an open-faced inkjet.
>
>Our results with alignment are adequate as it stands.  Having a 
>jig  with pegs and pre-drilled/marked boards, all going into the 
>laser cutter sounds like a lot more effort than reward.  If I were 
>trying to push the process down to a primo 8mil/8mil one, then it'd 
>probably be necessary though.  As it is now, it would seem to at 
>least double our workflow effort.
>
>-e
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, mlerman@... wrote:
> >
> > Two sided alignment has been solved by the people who do cnc 
> routing of boards. They use aligmnet pins (or optical markings) on 
> the Y axis and software to do all the work of alignment and 
> isolating the traces. I think Eagle has a ULP for this, too. I have 
> a cnc board router, and the biggest problem by far is the cutting - 
> you have to change bits, they break, etc. So If I could use a laser 
> to do the isolation I could:
> >
> > paint the board
> > burn isolation traces with the laser on both sides
> > drill the boad on the cnc
> > etch the board
> > put it back on the cnc to burn away over the pads, leaving the 
> paint as a solder mask.
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate Masking Materials (CO2 Laser)

2011-01-01 by Jan Kok

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> I've been looking at diode lasers and appears that focusing them is
> not so easily done because they exhibit astigmatism and the beams are
> not round. In fact, some of them are square.

I don't understand what the problem is. According to the Wikipedia
article on CDs:

"CD data are stored as a series of tiny indentations known as "pits",
encoded in a spiral track moulded into the top of the polycarbonate
layer. The areas between pits are known as "lands". Each pit is
approximately 100 nm deep by 500 nm wide, and varies from 850 nm to
3.5 µm in length.
The optical chip extracted from a CD player. The three dark rectangles
are photosensitive, and read the data from the disk. Electronic
tracking keeps the laser beam centered on the middle area.

"The distance between the tracks, the pitch, is 1.6 µm. A CD is read
by focusing a 780 nm wavelength (near infrared) semiconductor laser
through the bottom of the polycarbonate layer."

So CD writers must focus down to approximately 500 nm.

The shape of the beam shouldn't matter, as long as the light rays come
out parallel (as with a laser pointer). Then you can focus the rays
down to a point of a size on the order of the light wavelength.

Under Blu-ray Disks, Wikipedia says:

"While a DVD uses a 650-nanometer red laser, Blu-ray Disc uses a 405
nm "blue" laser. This shorter wavelength allows for over five times
more data storage per layer than allowed by a DVD. Note that even
though the laser is called "blue", its color is actually in the violet
range.

"The diodes are GaN (gallium nitride) lasers that produce 405 nm light
directly, that is, without frequency doubling or other nonlinear
optical mechanisms.[58] Conventional DVDs and CDs use red and
near-infrared lasers, at 650 nm and 780 nm, respectively.
Panasonic Internal Blu-ray ROM notebook drive

"The minimum "spot size" on which a laser can be focused is limited by
diffraction, and depends on the wavelength of the light and the
numerical aperture of the lens used to focus it. By decreasing the
wavelength, increasing the numerical aperture from 0.60 to 0.85, and
making the cover layer thinner to avoid unwanted optical effects, the
laser beam can be focused to a smaller spot, which effectively allows
more information to be stored in the same area.

"For Blu-ray Disc, the spot size is 580 nm. In addition to the optical
improvements, Blu-ray Discs feature improvements in data encoding that
further increase the capacity[citation needed]. (See Compact Disc for
information on optical discs' physical structure.)"

(It's not clear to me why the spot size of Blu-ray disks should be,
apparently, bigger. Maybe the spot size is measured in a different
way, or maybe the 580 nm is actually track pitch or some such error.)

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.