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Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-17 by caveteursus

motivated by the Nuts and Volts article I went out and bought a $29 
Black and Decker toaster oven, and then from Digikey some of the 
syringe solder paste ($40, you need the syringe plunger too).

I am using something which appears like a dental pick to apply a 
small dab of the solder paste on the pad, then carefully place the 
device on the pads using a fine tweezer. I find it conventient to 
squeeze a bit of the paste onto the ground plane of the board.

toast for a couple minutes at 450 degrees or so -- something like 2 
to 3 minutes -- the only problem seems to be that if you remove the 
board too quickly the parts can slip around a bit when the solder is 
hot.

if you are careful the process works beautifully.

i've posted this on www.diyaudio.com, so far no takers.

jack

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-17 by John Craddock

See the following group for more information
mailto:E-Z_Bake@...m
HTH
JC
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: caveteursus [mailto:j.walton@amlp.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 17 September 2003 12:21 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices


snip



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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-17 by Markus Zingg

>motivated by the Nuts and Volts article I went out and bought a $29 
>Black and Decker toaster oven, and then from Digikey some of the 
>syringe solder paste ($40, you need the syringe plunger too).
>
>I am using something which appears like a dental pick to apply a 
>small dab of the solder paste on the pad, then carefully place the 
>device on the pads using a fine tweezer. I find it conventient to 
>squeeze a bit of the paste onto the ground plane of the board.
>
>toast for a couple minutes at 450 degrees or so -- something like 2 
>to 3 minutes -- the only problem seems to be that if you remove the 
>board too quickly the parts can slip around a bit when the solder is 
>hot.
>
>if you are careful the process works beautifully.
>
>i've posted this on www.diyaudio.com, so far no takers.

I would have loved to take a look at this, but what a stupid forum! No
chance to find a post efficiently! Do you have a way for me to
identify your post? And - I figure it's a video - no?

TIA

Markus

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-17 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 9/17/2003 2:05:09 AM Central Standard Time, 
John.Craddock@... writes:

> E-Z_Bake@yahoogroups.com
> 

John:  This only results in an invitation to join any Yahoo group!  What did 
you leave out?  I don't know how to access E-Z Bake!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-18 by Leon Heller

>From: "caveteursus" <j.walton@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices
>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:21:01 -0000
>
>motivated by the Nuts and Volts article I went out and bought a $29
>Black and Decker toaster oven, and then from Digikey some of the
>syringe solder paste ($40, you need the syringe plunger too).
>
>I am using something which appears like a dental pick to apply a
>small dab of the solder paste on the pad, then carefully place the
>device on the pads using a fine tweezer. I find it conventient to
>squeeze a bit of the paste onto the ground plane of the board.
>
>toast for a couple minutes at 450 degrees or so -- something like 2
>to 3 minutes -- the only problem seems to be that if you remove the
>board too quickly the parts can slip around a bit when the solder is
>hot.
>

In one of the web pages describing this toaster oven technique, PQFP devices 
simply have a narrow 'ribbon' of paste applied across the pads. A few shorts 
probably result, but are easily removed with a soldering iron.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email:leon_heller@...
My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

_________________________________________________________________
Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. 
http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess

Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-18 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/17/2003 2:05:09 AM Central Standard Time, 
> John.Craddock@x... writes:
> 
> > E-Z_Bake@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> 
> John:  This only results in an invitation to join any Yahoo group! 
What did 
> you leave out?  I don't know how to access E-Z Bake!

FYI, I keep seeing people posting the email address for groups rather
than the group site. You can get to the group site like this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exact_group_name

So:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/E-Z_Bake

Of course, now I have to go there and find out what in the heck EZ
Bake ovens have to do with making PCBs. ;')

Another FYI: When posting websites, if you include http:// at the
beginning it becomes a link for 99% of viewers. Unless you post in
HTML (boo!), then you have to explicitly make it a link.

Steve Greenfield

Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-20 by caveteursus

I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in 
progress -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little bit 
when I removed the board "hot" from the oven.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2

Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-20 by caveteursus

you have to append the second line of the URL, or just search under 
TOASTER using the DIYAUDIO search engine.

jack

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "caveteursus" <j.walton@a...> 
wrote:
> I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in 
> progress -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little 
bit 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> when I removed the board "hot" from the oven.
> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?
> s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2

Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-20 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "caveteursus" <j.walton@a...> wrote:
> I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in 
> progress -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little bit 
> when I removed the board "hot" from the oven.
>
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2


Here's that link using TinyURL.com:
http://tinyurl.com/o0xn

Steve

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-20 by Markus Zingg

>I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in 
>progress -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little bit 
>when I removed the board "hot" from the oven.
>http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?
>s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2

Thanks for the link - looks good :) Do you also have a picture of the
oven itself? I'm asking cause the oven you use is likely not to be
available where I live (europe) but a similar one might would do.

Then, is there a time saving in doing it this way? I could imagine
that placing the parts onto solder paste and especially moving the pcb
into the oven might be terribly critical - no? So far I hand soldered
all my boards but I agree that it takes quite a while so I'm of course
interested in potential improvements.

Markus

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-20 by Stefan Trethan

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:25:12 +0200, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@...> wrote:

>> I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in progress 
>> -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little bit when I 
>> removed the board "hot" from the oven.
>> http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?
>> s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2
>
> Thanks for the link - looks good :) Do you also have a picture of the
> oven itself? I'm asking cause the oven you use is likely not to be
> available where I live (europe) but a similar one might would do.
>
> Then, is there a time saving in doing it this way? I could imagine
> that placing the parts onto solder paste and especially moving the pcb
> into the oven might be terribly critical - no? So far I hand soldered
> all my boards but I agree that it takes quite a while so I'm of course
> interested in potential improvements.
>
> Markus
>

I once used a smd toaster in school.
It was a small unit for pcb size maybe 150 x 200 maximum (yes these are 
metric mm).

The trick is not to put the pcb out by hand.
it had a tiny "carrigae" which slided it out at the side.
the procedure was the following:

put the pcb on the carriage.
slide it the middle position (already inside the oven).
keep it there until the timer was counted down and the beeper sounds.
then carry it further into the oven, beneath the glass observing window.
again wait for the beeper to sound when count down is at zero and then 
slide it all the way
out to "outside" position.

so the middle stage was some sort of "preheating process".

i don't remember the times, please don't ask. it was in the seconds range 
at both stations.

i also don't remember the temperature. it has a digital display for the 
soldering stage.
i think it was between 300 and 400 but not sure about this.


i think the "preheat" stage was not seperately heated, it was "waste" heat 
from the actual soldering stage.

the carriage was of a very thin fabric like material, black.
i think this is vital to allow heat to penetrate fast through it from the 
bottom.
the fabric was clamped on the side.


maybe if you want to build one, this may help you.

i would buy a cheap oven, there aer plenty around.
they normally have quarz heating "lamps", most cases on top and one bottom.
maybe it would be better to put four such lamps in
also a heat regulation needs to be implemented, no problem electronically.

i don't remember how the "slits" through which the carriage with the pcb 
went were sealed.
maybe they were open all time but maybe there was a door mechanism.
i guess making flaps is no problem, with levers pivoting them up/down when 
the carriage passes through.

if you want to build one, the most important may be the following:
time in preheat stage at which temperature.
time in reflow stage at which temperatuer.
to have an idea with what to start.

i think the preheat is important, it brings pcb and parts up to a 
temperature which won't destroy them.
when all is hot it is put in soldering temperature. the result is that it 
needs less time at soldering temp. thus not "burning" the components on the 
outside.

(like baking in the kitchen - too hot: fast but burnt outside and uncooked 
inside).


st
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-20 by Don Perry

Reading your letter, I thought I might throw this out to you, years ago
I used to reflow poor solder cards by heating peanut oil, yes peanut
oil, in a flat pan.  It can take the heat and melt solder.  I have not
done it a long time.  But it worked.  I am sure you need to take
cautions for burns and fires.  I use my grill outside for questionable
oven/wife work.  Sounds a bit strange but it beat chasing intermittent
cold solder bugs.  The cards had pins not flow through holes, TTL and
RTL ckts.  Just a thought.  - Perry

Markus Zingg wrote:

>  >I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in
> >progress -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little bit
> >when I removed the board "hot" from the oven.
> >http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?
> >s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2
>
> Thanks for the link - looks good :) Do you also have a picture of the
> oven itself? I'm asking cause the oven you use is likely not to be
> available where I live (europe) but a similar one might would do.
>
> Then, is there a time saving in doing it this way? I could imagine
> that placing the parts onto solder paste and especially moving the pcb
>
> into the oven might be terribly critical - no? So far I hand soldered
> all my boards but I agree that it takes quite a while so I'm of course
>
> interested in potential improvements.
>
> Markus
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-20 by Stefan Trethan

but how did you get the oil off after?
i mean this sounds very messy...

but a interesting idea to use another "heating medium" than air.
may be much faster and shorter heating time in oil because it stores more 
heat / doesn't insulate so well...

you put the circuit in when it was already hot?
but how to get it out not causing the parts to slide around (ok not so much 
a problem with through hole....)

st
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:07:33 -0400, Don Perry <mojo@...> wrote:

> Reading your letter, I thought I might throw this out to you, years ago
> I used to reflow poor solder cards by heating peanut oil, yes peanut
> oil, in a flat pan.  It can take the heat and melt solder.  I have not
> done it a long time.  But it worked.  I am sure you need to take
> cautions for burns and fires.  I use my grill outside for questionable
> oven/wife work.  Sounds a bit strange but it beat chasing intermittent
> cold solder bugs.  The cards had pins not flow through holes, TTL and
> RTL ckts.  Just a thought.  - Perry
>
> Markus Zingg wrote:
>
>> >I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in
>> >progress -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little bit
>> >when I removed the board "hot" from the oven.
>> >http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?
>> >s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2
>>
>> Thanks for the link - looks good :) Do you also have a picture of the
>> oven itself? I'm asking cause the oven you use is likely not to be
>> available where I live (europe) but a similar one might would do.
>>
>> Then, is there a time saving in doing it this way? I could imagine
>> that placing the parts onto solder paste and especially moving the pcb
>>
>> into the oven might be terribly critical - no? So far I hand soldered
>> all my boards but I agree that it takes quite a while so I'm of course
>>
>> interested in potential improvements.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> [click here]
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>>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-21 by caveteursus

It was a $29 Black and Decker toaster oven -- the N&V article had 
several specific models they had tested, but none were available 
here in New Jersey.

I find that at 450degF it takes about 2 or 3 minutes to melt the 
solder.  The article made reference to crayons which melt at 
specific temperatures -- you just break off a bit and watch through 
the glass panel to see when it melts.

this is a trial, of course-- some things I have learned:

the oven has a tray which slides in and out as the glass door is 
moved open -- open the door slowly and carefully.

a very fine tweezer is worth its price in placing components.
some items will only reflow once -- like electrolytic capacitors.

DO NOT USE THE TOASTER FOR COOKING -- remember you are cooking lead !

I am going to try the stainless steel stencils next -- these are 
about as thin as a piece of paper and have cutouts where the solder 
pads should be -- you apply the paste with a squeegie --

Jack

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> but how did you get the oil off after?
> i mean this sounds very messy...
> 
> but a interesting idea to use another "heating medium" than air.
> may be much faster and shorter heating time in oil because it ok

Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-21 by Dave Mucha

> you put the circuit in when it was already hot?
> but how to get it out not causing the parts to slide around (ok not 
so much 
> a problem with through hole....)


Not having any experiance with this method, from what I have read, 
the surface tension of the solder and the chip will acutually pull 
the chip into alignment with the center of the pad, trace, whatever.

Much like how solder will create a perfect curve around pins, the 
strenght of the surface tension is pretty strong.   Remember floating 
a needle on water in science class ?

But, as was mentioned, movement, shaking and gravity can re-posistion 
things PDQ !

Why not use an over thermometer and just unplug the oven and wait 
until it cools enough to let the solder solidify ?


Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-21 by Stefan Trethan

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:08:17 -0000, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:

>
>> you put the circuit in when it was already hot?
>> but how to get it out not causing the parts to slide around (ok not
> so much
>> a problem with through hole....)
>
>
> Not having any experiance with this method, from what I have read, the 
> surface tension of the solder and the chip will acutually pull the chip 
> into alignment with the center of the pad, trace, whatever.
>
> Much like how solder will create a perfect curve around pins, the 
> strenght of the surface tension is pretty strong.   Remember floating a 
> needle on water in science class ?
>
> But, as was mentioned, movement, shaking and gravity can re-posistion 
> things PDQ !
>
> Why not use an over thermometer and just unplug the oven and wait until 
> it cools enough to let the solder solidify ?
>
>
> Dave
>
>

yes but we definitely don't want to damage any parts by heat.
if you wait until a oven is cold this may occur.

the sliding carriage on the oven i used didn't shake off the parts so i 
think this may be a way to construct it.
not too hard to cut a slot in a small oven and put 2 rails in.. maybe a 
small flap to close the hole (keep heat in).


st
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-22 by kenneth magers

i beleave that there is a specieal glue that is used
for holding these down i have used pin head sized
drops of super glue gell just make shure in a well
ventelated area the heat will set them in place
i have encounterd the special glue they use when
reworking smd boards so i know it is used somtimes
--- Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> wrote:
> 
> > you put the circuit in when it was already hot?
> > but how to get it out not causing the parts to
> slide around (ok not 
> so much 
> > a problem with through hole....)
> 
> 
> Not having any experiance with this method, from
> what I have read, 
> the surface tension of the solder and the chip will
> acutually pull 
> the chip into alignment with the center of the pad,
> trace, whatever.
> 
> Much like how solder will create a perfect curve
> around pins, the 
> strenght of the surface tension is pretty strong.  
> Remember floating 
> a needle on water in science class ?
> 
> But, as was mentioned, movement, shaking and gravity
> can re-posistion 
> things PDQ !
> 
> Why not use an over thermometer and just unplug the
> oven and wait 
> until it cools enough to let the solder solidify ?
> 
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-23 by ghidera2000

I've seen a glue in the electronics stores that is supposed to be 
used instead of solder. No idea how well it works but, I don't 
imagine you can remove the parts (easily) afterwards if needed.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, kenneth magers 
<kenneth_m_73149@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> i beleave that there is a specieal glue that is used
> for holding these down i have used pin head sized
> drops of super glue gell just make shure in a well
> ventelated area the heat will set them in place
> i have encounterd the special glue they use when
> reworking smd boards so i know it is used somtimes

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-23 by Stefan Trethan

glue instead of solder is not "holding down smd components" glue.

the smd glue i know is white or red, and if you want to replace a component 
brute force or a proxxon grinder are the only methods i know to remove it.

i am not sure if it is really needed to use glue. if you can put the board 
carefully in and out the
oven it is not necessary i think. also with industrial boards not all are 
"glued".

st


On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 01:59:42 -0000, ghidera2000 <ghidera2000@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I've seen a glue in the electronics stores that is supposed to be used 
> instead of solder. No idea how well it works but, I don't imagine you can 
> remove the parts (easily) afterwards if needed.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, kenneth magers 
> <kenneth_m_73149@y...> wrote:
>> i beleave that there is a specieal glue that is used
>> for holding these down i have used pin head sized
>> drops of super glue gell just make shure in a well
>> ventelated area the heat will set them in place
>> i have encounterd the special glue they use when
>> reworking smd boards so i know it is used somtimes
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toaster oven reflow for SMT devices

2003-09-26 by Don Perry

I seem to recall using circuit resin cleaner to get the oil off after.  I heated the oil in a shallow pan, and put them in and out with hot dog tongs.
These boards did not have surface mount parts.  I don't recall any problem with parts falling off, we kept the boards parts up in and out of the oil.

Stefan Trethan wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> but how did you get the oil off after?
> i mean this sounds very messy...
>
> but a interesting idea to use another "heating medium" than air.
> may be much faster and shorter heating time in oil because it stores more
> heat / doesn't insulate so well...
>
> you put the circuit in when it was already hot?
> but how to get it out not causing the parts to slide around (ok not so much
> a problem with through hole....)
>
> st
>
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:07:33 -0400, Don Perry <mojo@...> wrote:
>
> > Reading your letter, I thought I might throw this out to you, years ago
> > I used to reflow poor solder cards by heating peanut oil, yes peanut
> > oil, in a flat pan.  It can take the heat and melt solder.  I have not
> > done it a long time.  But it worked.  I am sure you need to take
> > cautions for burns and fires.  I use my grill outside for questionable
> > oven/wife work.  Sounds a bit strange but it beat chasing intermittent
> > cold solder bugs.  The cards had pins not flow through holes, TTL and
> > RTL ckts.  Just a thought.  - Perry
> >
> > Markus Zingg wrote:
> >
> >> >I hope this link takes -- it's a pic of the toaster oven PCB in
> >> >progress -- as you can see one of the 2k resistors slid a little bit
> >> >when I removed the board "hot" from the oven.
> >> >http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?
> >> >s=&threadid=13023&perpage=15&highlight=toaster&pagenumber=2
> >>
> >> Thanks for the link - looks good :) Do you also have a picture of the
> >> oven itself? I'm asking cause the oven you use is likely not to be
> >> available where I live (europe) but a similar one might would do.
> >>
> >> Then, is there a time saving in doing it this way? I could imagine
> >> that placing the parts onto solder paste and especially moving the pcb
> >>
> >> into the oven might be terribly critical - no? So far I hand soldered
> >> all my boards but I agree that it takes quite a while so I'm of course
> >>
> >> interested in potential improvements.
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