Homebrew PCBs

Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the remaining enchant. 

Thanks.
-Mike

msilv3r pravi:
> Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the remaining enchant. 
>
> Thanks.
> -Mike
>   
Just use 1:1:1 ratio and should be ok.
If HCl is diluted just little longer etching time will be.

Pour watter into bowl after that HCl and last H2O2. You need little 
amount of liquid just to cover board. Do not preheat anithing and do all 
the thing outside.

Sorry I'm late responding.  I think those ratios sound OK (though I'd probably use less H2O2, maybe 2H2O, 1H2O2, 2HCl,) but I would do water first, then H2O2, then HCl.  The HCl dissolving in sater will evolve a lot of heat; the mixture of H2O and H2O2 will absorb the heat as it is generated.

NEVER add water to acid.  A small amount of water added to a strong acid (and every mixture begins with a small amount of the added material) will get very hot very quickly, will boil, and then splash undiluted acid back at you.  Bad bongos!!  (Do as you oughta, add adic to water!)

HTH,
Donald.
--
"Plain Text" email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- "Slavko Kocjancic" <eslavko@...> wrote:

> msilv3r pravi:
> > Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a
> chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the
> HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't
> know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm
> worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are
> lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient
> gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this
> outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the
> remaining enchant. 
> >
> > Thanks.
> > -Mike
> >   
> Just use 1:1:1 ratio and should be ok.
> If HCl is diluted just little longer etching time will be.
> 
> Pour watter into bowl after that HCl and last H2O2. You need little 
> amount of liquid just to cover board. Do not preheat anithing and do
> all 
> the thing outside.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

Thanks Slavko. I just did it and it certainly etched the copper well. A little too well. I thought the transfer looked great. However the etch took off the copper and then some. You can see pics of it here:


This is the transfer on the PCB. Looks good in my opinion: http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0138.jpg

This is the finished etch. Looks horrible:
http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0142.jpg

I almost feel like I made the traces too small.. I made them .016 inches. Any recommendations?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@...> wrote:

>
> msilv3r pravi:
> > Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the remaining enchant. 
> >
> > Thanks.
> > -Mike
> >   
> Just use 1:1:1 ratio and should be ok.
> If HCl is diluted just little longer etching time will be.
> 
> Pour watter into bowl after that HCl and last H2O2. You need little 
> amount of liquid just to cover board. Do not preheat anithing and do all 
> the thing outside.
>

Hi,

The tracks were really small... and may be you let the etching too long time ?

By the way, how did you succeed in having such a beautiful transfer ?

I have spent hours this week end tying to toner transfer a pcb... unsuccessfully... Always some tracks missing...
And I tested 12 times...

JP

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "msilv3r" <msilv3r@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Slavko. I just did it and it certainly etched the copper well. A little too well. I thought the transfer looked great. However the etch took off the copper and then some. You can see pics of it here:
> 
> 
> This is the transfer on the PCB. Looks good in my opinion: http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0138.jpg
> 
> This is the finished etch. Looks horrible:
> http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0142.jpg
> 
> I almost feel like I made the traces too small.. I made them .016 inches. Any recommendations?
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
> >
> > msilv3r pravi:
> > > Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the remaining enchant. 
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > -Mike
> > >   
> > Just use 1:1:1 ratio and should be ok.
> > If HCl is diluted just little longer etching time will be.
> > 
> > Pour watter into bowl after that HCl and last H2O2. You need little 
> > amount of liquid just to cover board. Do not preheat anithing and do all 
> > the thing outside.
> >
>

Thanks JP. I'm going to redo the tracks in Eagle and try it again.

To get the thermal transfer I used this paper from DigiKey: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=182-1003-ND - I had tried 20 times prior using different transfer paper, like magazines and transparency paper. I was amazed at how easy the thermal paper worked. 

I then put it through a lamination a bunch of times.

I followed a video tutorial for the most part. There's a great video tutorial on how the entire etching process here: http://www.getlofi.com/?p=1997

-Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jp.gleyzes" <freedom2000@...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> 
> The tracks were really small... and may be you let the etching too long time ?
> 
> By the way, how did you succeed in having such a beautiful transfer ?
> 
> I have spent hours this week end tying to toner transfer a pcb... unsuccessfully... Always some tracks missing...
> And I tested 12 times...
> 
> JP
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "msilv3r" <msilv3r@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks Slavko. I just did it and it certainly etched the copper well. A little too well. I thought the transfer looked great. However the etch took off the copper and then some. You can see pics of it here:
> > 
> > 
> > This is the transfer on the PCB. Looks good in my opinion: http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0138.jpg
> > 
> > This is the finished etch. Looks horrible:
> > http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0142.jpg
> > 
> > I almost feel like I made the traces too small.. I made them .016 inches. Any recommendations?
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@> wrote:
> > >
> > > msilv3r pravi:
> > > > Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the remaining enchant. 
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > -Mike
> > > >   
> > > Just use 1:1:1 ratio and should be ok.
> > > If HCl is diluted just little longer etching time will be.
> > > 
> > > Pour watter into bowl after that HCl and last H2O2. You need little 
> > > amount of liquid just to cover board. Do not preheat anithing and do all 
> > > the thing outside.
> > >
> >
>

The program generating the tracks won't change the etch results.  Try a more dilute etchant, make sure the toner is well and truly bonded to the copper surface.  16 mil traces should not be a problem.

Donald.
--
"Plain Text" email -- it's an accessibility issue
()  no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\  ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

----- "msilv3r" <msilv3r@...> wrote:

> Thanks JP. I'm going to redo the tracks in Eagle and try it again.
> 
> To get the thermal transfer I used this paper from DigiKey:
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=182-1003-ND
> - I had tried 20 times prior using different transfer paper, like
> magazines and transparency paper. I was amazed at how easy the thermal
> paper worked. 
> 
> I then put it through a lamination a bunch of times.
> 
> I followed a video tutorial for the most part. There's a great video
> tutorial on how the entire etching process here:
> http://www.getlofi.com/?p=1997
> 
> -Mike
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jp.gleyzes" <freedom2000@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > 
> > The tracks were really small... and may be you let the etching too
> long time ?
> > 
> > By the way, how did you succeed in having such a beautiful transfer
> ?
> > 
> > I have spent hours this week end tying to toner transfer a pcb...
> unsuccessfully... Always some tracks missing...
> > And I tested 12 times...
> > 
> > JP
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "msilv3r" <msilv3r@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thanks Slavko. I just did it and it certainly etched the copper
> well. A little too well. I thought the transfer looked great. However
> the etch took off the copper and then some. You can see pics of it
> here:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > This is the transfer on the PCB. Looks good in my opinion:
> http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0138.jpg
> > > 
> > > This is the finished etch. Looks horrible:
> > > http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0142.jpg
> > > 
> > > I almost feel like I made the traces too small.. I made them .016
> inches. Any recommendations?
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > msilv3r pravi:
> > > > > Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a
> chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the
> HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't
> know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm
> worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are
> lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient
> gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this
> outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the
> remaining enchant. 
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > -Mike
> > > > >   
> > > > Just use 1:1:1 ratio and should be ok.
> > > > If HCl is diluted just little longer etching time will be.
> > > > 
> > > > Pour watter into bowl after that HCl and last H2O2. You need
> little 
> > > > amount of liquid just to cover board. Do not preheat anithing
> and do all 
> > > > the thing outside.
> > > >
> > >

I've certainly had little trouble with 10mil traces (0.010 inch) out of
Eagle with Ammonium Persulphate - I do find Eagle's square through-hole pads
a bit prone to over etching, but come to think about it, they etch OK,
they're just bloody small!

PG

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Donald H Locker <dhlocker@...>wrote:

>
>
> The program generating the tracks won't change the etch results. Try a more
> dilute etchant, make sure the toner is well and truly bonded to the copper
> surface. 16 mil traces should not be a problem.
>
>
> Donald.
> --
> "Plain Text" email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>
>
> ----- "msilv3r" <msilv3r@... <msilv3r%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> > Thanks JP. I'm going to redo the tracks in Eagle and try it again.
> >
> > To get the thermal transfer I used this paper from DigiKey:
> >
> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?vendor=0&keywords=182-1003-ND
> > - I had tried 20 times prior using different transfer paper, like
> > magazines and transparency paper. I was amazed at how easy the thermal
> > paper worked.
> >
> > I then put it through a lamination a bunch of times.
> >
> > I followed a video tutorial for the most part. There's a great video
> > tutorial on how the entire etching process here:
> > http://www.getlofi.com/?p=1997
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "jp.gleyzes" <freedom2000@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The tracks were really small... and may be you let the etching too
> > long time ?
> > >
> > > By the way, how did you succeed in having such a beautiful transfer
> > ?
> > >
> > > I have spent hours this week end tying to toner transfer a pcb...
> > unsuccessfully... Always some tracks missing...
> > > And I tested 12 times...
> > >
> > > JP
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "msilv3r" <msilv3r@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Slavko. I just did it and it certainly etched the copper
> > well. A little too well. I thought the transfer looked great. However
> > the etch took off the copper and then some. You can see pics of it
> > here:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is the transfer on the PCB. Looks good in my opinion:
> > http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0138.jpg
> > > >
> > > > This is the finished etch. Looks horrible:
> > > > http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0142.jpg
> > > >
> > > > I almost feel like I made the traces too small.. I made them .016
> > inches. Any recommendations?
> > > >
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Slavko Kocjancic <eslavko@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > msilv3r pravi:
> > > > > > Hi. I'm new to this. I recently got some H202 and HCL from a
> > chemical company. The H2O2 is 35%. I'm not sure what percentage the
> > HCL is, however it's labeled "Hydrochloric Acid, 8, PG II." I don't
> > know what ratio to use. Should I dilute the H202 with water? I'm
> > worried about the combination turning into boiling water. Also, are
> > lined latex gloves, the kind you use for kitchen cleaning, sufficient
> > gloves? Does it matter which you pour in first? I plan on doing this
> > outside. I have a plastic container for both the etching and the
> > remaining enchant.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > -Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > Just use 1:1:1 ratio and should be ok.
> > > > > If HCl is diluted just little longer etching time will be.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pour watter into bowl after that HCl and last H2O2. You need
> > little
> > > > > amount of liquid just to cover board. Do not preheat anithing
> > and do all
> > > > > the thing outside.
> > > > >
> > > >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I've certainly had little trouble with 10mil traces (0.010 inch) out of
> Eagle with Ammonium Persulphate - I do find Eagle's square through-hole pads
> a bit prone to over etching, but come to think about it, they etch OK,
> they're just bloody small!
> 
> PG

Doesn't matter which program used for the layout, most of them do have pretty small pads.  These small pads are ok for a commercial board with solder mask, but for a home etched board I find it's better to use larger pads.  My pads and traces are usually a good bit larger than standard.  This helps prevent problems of pads lifting during rework as most of my boards are prototypes requiring removal of parts a few times....  sometimes I get lucky and do the design correct first time.

Just make the pads as large as you wish.

Ken H>

Yes, I've taken to putting some extra annulus on them and, of course, going
SMD when and wherever possible..

PG

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:10 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> > I've certainly had little trouble with 10mil traces (0.010 inch) out of
> > Eagle with Ammonium Persulphate - I do find Eagle's square through-hole
> pads
> > a bit prone to over etching, but come to think about it, they etch OK,
> > they're just bloody small!
> >
> > PG
>
> Doesn't matter which program used for the layout, most of them do have
> pretty small pads. These small pads are ok for a commercial board with
> solder mask, but for a home etched board I find it's better to use larger
> pads. My pads and traces are usually a good bit larger than standard. This
> helps prevent problems of pads lifting during rework as most of my boards
> are prototypes requiring removal of parts a few times.... sometimes I get
> lucky and do the design correct first time.
>
> Just make the pads as large as you wish.
>
> Ken H>
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the response guys. I just redid both the tracks and the pads. I was able to modify both in Eagle. I'm going to try it again early this week with a more diluted solution. I'll post an update when I can.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Piers Goodhew <piers@...> wrote:

>
> Yes, I've taken to putting some extra annulus on them and, of course, going
> SMD when and wherever possible..
> 
> PG
> 
> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:10 PM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > > I've certainly had little trouble with 10mil traces (0.010 inch) out of
> > > Eagle with Ammonium Persulphate - I do find Eagle's square through-hole
> > pads
> > > a bit prone to over etching, but come to think about it, they etch OK,
> > > they're just bloody small!
> > >
> > > PG
> >
> > Doesn't matter which program used for the layout, most of them do have
> > pretty small pads. These small pads are ok for a commercial board with
> > solder mask, but for a home etched board I find it's better to use larger
> > pads. My pads and traces are usually a good bit larger than standard. This
> > helps prevent problems of pads lifting during rework as most of my boards
> > are prototypes requiring removal of parts a few times.... sometimes I get
> > lucky and do the design correct first time.
> >
> > Just make the pads as large as you wish.
> >
> > Ken H>
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The stock pads are meant for throughhole plated boards. The plating
holds two fairly small restrings together reasonably well. For single
sided they are way too small. It does not matter if the single sided
boards are homemade or commercial, the copper comes already adhered to
the substrate and pull-off force is exactly identical.
(Soldermask always has a little gap to the copper and is not relevant for this).

ST

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 5:10 AM, sailingto <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
> Doesn't matter which program used for the layout, most of them do have pretty small pads.  These small pads are ok for a commercial board with solder mask, but for a home etched board I find it's better to use larger pads.

msilv3r pravi:
>
> Thanks Slavko. I just did it and it certainly etched the copper well. A little too well. I thought the transfer looked great. However the etch took off the copper and then some. You can see pics of it here:
>
>
> This is the transfer on the PCB. Looks good in my opinion: http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0138.jpg
>
> This is the finished etch. Looks horrible:
> http://www.msilverman.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/DSC_0142.jpg
>
> I almost feel like I made the traces too small.. I made them .016 inches. Any recommendations?
>   
Try with just of half of H2O2 (it's here to act as the accelerator) and 
when you see copper etched immideatly remove board out of solution and 
rinse it under watter. Try to have etching time aprox 3 to 5 minutes. If 
goes to fast the board can be heated to much but longer time isnt 
problematic (I just don't want to wait)

16 mils traces should be just fine. But the question is do you need 
that. When designing PCB use the largest width you can. When there isn't 
enought space then use thiner one. So if you have space for 50mils 
traces (this exampe have much more space as I see) use it.!
I start all my design with 50mils signal traces and use thiner up to 8 
mils if I needed. For cooper pour if I needed that I use at least 16 
mils isolation.

> enought space then use thiner one. So if you have space for 50mils 
> traces (this exampe have much more space as I see) use it.!
> I start all my design with 50mils signal traces and use thiner up to 8 
> mils if I needed. For cooper pour if I needed that I use at least 16 
> mils isolation.
>

Thank you for the 50 mil trace info - that's about what I use myself, unless it's larger..... all depending on room.  Why waste all that space if it's not needed for anything else?

Ken H>