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New here

New here

2010-04-08 by daemons_ca

Hello,

I just joined the group.

A little about me. I've been doing electronics since the age of 12 (I'm 38) and studied electronics in community college. I actually work in IT support. I still do electronics as a hobby.

Here's how I got here. I've been using toner transfer using PNP-blue. Works well but as you all already know, they are expensive.
I've not had much success using the "cheap method" using photo inkjet paper. I just got my hands on the good Staples photo paper, but still not good. I think my problem is with the ironing part.
So I spotted the Scotch TL901 laminator at Walmart, and with a google search landed here. :)

Looks like a cool group. Hopefully I can contribute to it.

Marc

Re: New here

2010-04-08 by awakephd

Welcome! I've only been around a year or so, so I'm still relatively new. Lots of great info here; good folks with lots of experience to share.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daemons_ca" <daemons_ca@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello,
> 
> I just joined the group.
> 
> A little about me. I've been doing electronics since the age of 12 (I'm 38) and studied electronics in community college. I actually work in IT support. I still do electronics as a hobby.
> 
> Here's how I got here. I've been using toner transfer using PNP-blue. Works well but as you all already know, they are expensive.
> I've not had much success using the "cheap method" using photo inkjet paper. I just got my hands on the good Staples photo paper, but still not good. I think my problem is with the ironing part.
> So I spotted the Scotch TL901 laminator at Walmart, and with a google search landed here. :)
> 
> Looks like a cool group. Hopefully I can contribute to it.
> 
> Marc
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] New here

2010-04-09 by Steve

Hi all,

What temperature does the toner need to reach in order to transfer?

I'm thinking about using the TL901 laminator for double-sided board, 
1/16in thickness. How many times would I need to run the board through 
the laminator?

Thanks.

Steve

daemons_ca wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I just joined the group.
>
> A little about me. I've been doing electronics since the age of 12 (I'm 38) and studied electronics in community college. I actually work in IT support. I still do electronics as a hobby.
>
> Here's how I got here. I've been using toner transfer using PNP-blue. Works well but as you all already know, they are expensive.
> I've not had much success using the "cheap method" using photo inkjet paper. I just got my hands on the good Staples photo paper, but still not good. I think my problem is with the ironing part.
> So I spotted the Scotch TL901 laminator at Walmart, and with a google search landed here. :)
>
> Looks like a cool group. Hopefully I can contribute to it.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Read The Patriot Post    Vertitas vos Liberabit
http://patriotpost.us/subscription/

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] New here

2010-04-09 by Harvey White

On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:55:02 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>What temperature does the toner need to reach in order to transfer?
>
>I'm thinking about using the TL901 laminator for double-sided board, 
>1/16in thickness. How many times would I need to run the board through 
>the laminator?

Depends very much on the paper.  According to pulsar, the press N play
paper takes very high heat.  Pulsar takes 6 to 8 times through the GBC
laminator I have.  Foil takes about 4.

I have two different laminators, one by royal, adapted to 1/16 board,
and one by GBC (recommended brand of pulsar), which is good for 0.020
to 0.032 board. The Royal is hotter, but less pressure.  The GBC is
more pressure.

Frankly, I'd experiment a bit.  Try area stuff as well.   If you use
foil, as well, go to the pulsar website and read the entire thing,
especially the Q&A sections and the stuff on the foil and paper.  The
useful stuff is buried there.

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>Thanks.
>
>Steve
>
>daemons_ca wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I just joined the group.
>>
>> A little about me. I've been doing electronics since the age of 12 (I'm 38) and studied electronics in community college. I actually work in IT support. I still do electronics as a hobby.
>>
>> Here's how I got here. I've been using toner transfer using PNP-blue. Works well but as you all already know, they are expensive.
>> I've not had much success using the "cheap method" using photo inkjet paper. I just got my hands on the good Staples photo paper, but still not good. I think my problem is with the ironing part.
>> So I spotted the Scotch TL901 laminator at Walmart, and with a google search landed here. :)
>>
>> Looks like a cool group. Hopefully I can contribute to it.
>>
>> Marc
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: New here

2010-04-09 by sailingto

> What temperature does the toner need to reach in order to transfer?

Temperature required depends on toner - most toners (HP, etc) require around 300F to 320F for good transfer.  At 270F the toner will transfer, but doesn't stick as good to the copper requiring care to prevent toner coming loose.  The new Brother 2040/2070 series of printers require over 400F to melt the toner for transfer - and better up around 450F. 
 
> I'm thinking about using the TL901 laminator for double-sided board, 
> 1/16in thickness. How many times would I need to run the board >through the laminator?

How many times thru really depends on amount of pressure and temperature of laminator.  The GBC that is touted so heavy by Pulsar (and sold on ebay for $25 shipped ( think it's went up a bit now)only has about 260F to 270F max before the thermal switch turns the heater off, then cools down to about 240F or so before heater comes back on. This laminator works on single or double sided board up to about .062" out of the box.  It helps to bevel the edges of .062", but not necessary, just makes it a bit easier.

I built a temperature controller for my GBC laminator to hold the temperature around 315F.  Using most papers it requires 4 to 6 trips thru the laminator for good transfer with my HP P-1006 printer.

I looked at the 901 you purchased at WalMart and it looks good. It would be a good idea to run some PCB thru and check the temperature as it comes out to get a good idea where it's at.

Have fun and good luck,

Ken H>

Re: New here

2010-04-09 by James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> 
> What temperature does the toner need to reach in order to transfer?
> 
> I'm thinking about using the TL901 laminator for double-sided board, 
> 1/16in thickness. How many times would I need to run the board through 
> the laminator?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Steve
> 
>

It depends on the toner among other things. I modified my laminator to make it hotter and it was a big improvement, I believe mine is also a TL901, it was the cheap Scotch one. If you open it up and look at the connector from the thickness switch you'll see that it has a couple of empty slots, each pin leading to a different value resistor. I scrounged some pins from another similar connector and added one to the highest heat position with a second switch, but you could also replace one of the resistors with a pot and have variable control. You want it about as hot as you can get it without damaging the laminator. I find 6 passes to be adequate but I usually do 8-10 just to make sure. Too many does not seem to cause problems but too few certainly does.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: New here

2010-04-10 by Steve

Thanks for the info guys.

I found some information on the web about the TL901, but nothing about 
temperature. How does one know before purchase if a particular laminator 
will heat the board to the 300F range?

And, if I had a laminator, how would I measure the temperature to which 
it heats the board?

Steve

sailingto wrote:
>> What temperature does the toner need to reach in order to transfer?
>>     
>
> Temperature required depends on toner - most toners (HP, etc) require around 300F to 320F for good transfer.  At 270F the toner will transfer, but doesn't stick as good to the copper requiring care to prevent toner coming loose.  The new Brother 2040/2070 series of printers require over 400F to melt the toner for transfer - and better up around 450F. 
>  
>   
>> I'm thinking about using the TL901 laminator for double-sided board, 
>> 1/16in thickness. How many times would I need to run the board >through the laminator?
>>     
>
> How many times thru really depends on amount of pressure and temperature of laminator.  The GBC that is touted so heavy by Pulsar (and sold on ebay for $25 shipped ( think it's went up a bit now)only has about 260F to 270F max before the thermal switch turns the heater off, then cools down to about 240F or so before heater comes back on. This laminator works on single or double sided board up to about .062" out of the box.  It helps to bevel the edges of .062", but not necessary, just makes it a bit easier.
>
> I built a temperature controller for my GBC laminator to hold the temperature around 315F.  Using most papers it requires 4 to 6 trips thru the laminator for good transfer with my HP P-1006 printer.
>
> I looked at the 901 you purchased at WalMart and it looks good. It would be a good idea to run some PCB thru and check the temperature as it comes out to get a good idea where it's at.
>
> Have fun and good luck,
>
> Ken H>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Read The Patriot Post    Vertitas vos Liberabit
http://patriotpost.us/subscription/

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info guys.
> 
> I found some information on the web about the TL901, but nothing about 
> temperature. How does one know before purchase if a particular laminator 
> will heat the board to the 300F range?
> 
> And, if I had a laminator, how would I measure the temperature to which 
> it heats the board?
> 
> Steve
> 

Easiest thing to do is buy a laminator that someone else already has experience with.

I used an IR thermometer to measure the roller temperature when I was modifying mine.

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by sailingto

Yep, what James says is the way it's done.

James, what IR thermometer do you have?  I purchased a cheapie off ebay.  It works pretty good at room temps, and even colder. Up over 200F or so it doesn't do so good - especially on shiny surfaces. I've not been able to get a temperature on a copper board yet with the IR.  

My temperature tests have been with either a thermometer probe stuck into the input rollers, OR with the temperature sensor I now use, and also used a type J thermocouple and measured the voltage output.

Ken H>


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve <steve65@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the info guys.
> > 
> > I found some information on the web about the TL901, but nothing about 
> > temperature. How does one know before purchase if a particular laminator 
> > will heat the board to the 300F range?
> > 
> > And, if I had a laminator, how would I measure the temperature to which 
> > it heats the board?
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> 
> Easiest thing to do is buy a laminator that someone else already has experience with.
> 
> I used an IR thermometer to measure the roller temperature when I was modifying mine.
>

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by daemons_ca

Ken, which IR thermometer off ebay did you buy? What's the model. I'm looking at a few and I'd like to know what to avoid. :)
Thanks

Marc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Yep, what James says is the way it's done.
> 
> James, what IR thermometer do you have?  I purchased a cheapie off ebay.  It works pretty good at room temps, and even colder. Up over 200F or so it doesn't do so good - especially on shiny surfaces. I've not been able to get a temperature on a copper board yet with the IR.  
> 
> My temperature tests have been with either a thermometer probe stuck into the input rollers, OR with the temperature sensor I now use, and also used a type J thermocouple and measured the voltage output.
> 
> Ken H>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve <steve65@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the info guys.
> > > 
> > > I found some information on the web about the TL901, but nothing about 
> > > temperature. How does one know before purchase if a particular laminator 
> > > will heat the board to the 300F range?
> > > 
> > > And, if I had a laminator, how would I measure the temperature to which 
> > > it heats the board?
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > 
> > Easiest thing to do is buy a laminator that someone else already has experience with.
> > 
> > I used an IR thermometer to measure the roller temperature when I was modifying mine.
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: New here

2010-04-10 by Alessio Sangalli

On 04/09/2010 10:42 PM, daemons_ca wrote:
>
>
> Ken, which IR thermometer off ebay did you buy? What's the model. I'm
> looking at a few and I'd like to know what to avoid. :) Thanks

IR thermometers will never work well, by definition, on most shiny 
surfaces. On the instructions of mine it says to apply some dark duct 
tape to a part that is shiny, for accuracy. Now, I am not sure I would 
put duct tape in a laminator :)

I have bought this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96451
for 25USD with a coupon I got in the mail.

I am extremely satisfied (I use it mostly to cook, to check the 
oven/pan/pot temperature etc)

bye
as

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by sailingto

Thanks for the link - A friend purchased that one and is happy with it also.  I looked on my ebay acct and it only shows purchased for the last 60 days max - not sure which it was, but several sellers carry one that looks the same. 

At $29 I might just get the HF one myself.

Thanks for the link.

Ken H>


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 04/09/2010 10:42 PM, daemons_ca wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ken, which IR thermometer off ebay did you buy? What's the model. I'm
> > looking at a few and I'd like to know what to avoid. :) Thanks
> 
> IR thermometers will never work well, by definition, on most shiny 
> surfaces. On the instructions of mine it says to apply some dark duct 
> tape to a part that is shiny, for accuracy. Now, I am not sure I would 
> put duct tape in a laminator :)
> 
> I have bought this:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96451
> for 25USD with a coupon I got in the mail.
> 
> I am extremely satisfied (I use it mostly to cook, to check the 
> oven/pan/pot temperature etc)
> 
> bye
> as
>

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by daemons_ca

Good info on toner temps. Thanks.

I think the TL901 is too low in temperature to use for transfer "as-is" (according to their specs), but I want to get one and have a look at the existing circuit. The pdf posted by josemj1 on modding this model looks interesting, but I'm not sure a new temp controller is required. If the TL901 uses a diode as it's sensor, then it's probably possible to bias the circuit to raise the temp up to 315F. If not, I think I'll have a look at your GBC temp controller and see if it can be used/adapted for the TL901. I don't have a nifty IR thermometer though. Maybe something I should look at getting first.

I also found a GBC H212 used, non-working. I don't know if it's a good model for PCBs, but it looks like it can be easily modded for the temperature. I hope it's just the fuse, or the temp cut-off and not the control circuit.

Marc


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> > What temperature does the toner need to reach in order to transfer?
> 
> Temperature required depends on toner - most toners (HP, etc) require around 300F to 320F for good transfer.  At 270F the toner will transfer, but doesn't stick as good to the copper requiring care to prevent toner coming loose.  The new Brother 2040/2070 series of printers require over 400F to melt the toner for transfer - and better up around 450F. 
>  
> > I'm thinking about using the TL901 laminator for double-sided board, 
> > 1/16in thickness. How many times would I need to run the board >through the laminator?
> 
> How many times thru really depends on amount of pressure and temperature of laminator.  The GBC that is touted so heavy by Pulsar (and sold on ebay for $25 shipped ( think it's went up a bit now)only has about 260F to 270F max before the thermal switch turns the heater off, then cools down to about 240F or so before heater comes back on. This laminator works on single or double sided board up to about .062" out of the box.  It helps to bevel the edges of .062", but not necessary, just makes it a bit easier.
> 
> I built a temperature controller for my GBC laminator to hold the temperature around 315F.  Using most papers it requires 4 to 6 trips thru the laminator for good transfer with my HP P-1006 printer.
> 
> I looked at the 901 you purchased at WalMart and it looks good. It would be a good idea to run some PCB thru and check the temperature as it comes out to get a good idea where it's at.
> 
> Have fun and good luck,
> 
> Ken H>
>

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by daemons_ca

Ken,

If you can send me a link to one that looks the same as the one you have, it would be helpful. I've found 5 different models on ebay so far.
Thanks.

Marc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sailingto" <sailingtoo@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thanks for the link - A friend purchased that one and is happy with it also.  I looked on my ebay acct and it only shows purchased for the last 60 days max - not sure which it was, but several sellers carry one that looks the same. 
> 
> At $29 I might just get the HF one myself.
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> Ken H>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@> wrote:
> >
> > On 04/09/2010 10:42 PM, daemons_ca wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Ken, which IR thermometer off ebay did you buy? What's the model. I'm
> > > looking at a few and I'd like to know what to avoid. :) Thanks
> > 
> > IR thermometers will never work well, by definition, on most shiny 
> > surfaces. On the instructions of mine it says to apply some dark duct 
> > tape to a part that is shiny, for accuracy. Now, I am not sure I would 
> > put duct tape in a laminator :)
> > 
> > I have bought this:
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96451
> > for 25USD with a coupon I got in the mail.
> > 
> > I am extremely satisfied (I use it mostly to cook, to check the 
> > oven/pan/pot temperature etc)
> > 
> > bye
> > as
> >
>

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by daemons_ca

James,

I knew there was a way to just mod the TL901 without replacing it's guts. Cool find. If I don't end up getting the GBC one, I'll get the TL901, and I'll make a how-to (with pictures) on modding the TL901 with the info you found to make it easier for everyone to do themselves.

So tell me, any issues with 1/16" boards? Did you need to remove anything inside that would limit the thickness it can accept?
Also, what is the speed at which it feeds?
I wonder if it's possible to modify to slow it down if it's a bit fast.

Marc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Steve <steve65@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > What temperature does the toner need to reach in order to transfer?
> > 
> > I'm thinking about using the TL901 laminator for double-sided board, 
> > 1/16in thickness. How many times would I need to run the board through 
> > the laminator?
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> >
> 
> It depends on the toner among other things. I modified my laminator to make it hotter and it was a big improvement, I believe mine is also a TL901, it was the cheap Scotch one. If you open it up and look at the connector from the thickness switch you'll see that it has a couple of empty slots, each pin leading to a different value resistor. I scrounged some pins from another similar connector and added one to the highest heat position with a second switch, but you could also replace one of the resistors with a pot and have variable control. You want it about as hot as you can get it without damaging the laminator. I find 6 passes to be adequate but I usually do 8-10 just to make sure. Too many does not seem to cause problems but too few certainly does.
>

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by James

> 
> So tell me, any issues with 1/16" boards? Did you need to remove anything inside that would limit the thickness it can accept?
> Also, what is the speed at which it feeds?
> I wonder if it's possible to modify to slow it down if it's a bit fast.
> 



I haven't had any trouble at all, I was afraid it would be an issue but 1/16" boards feed right through without a problem. I haven't measured the speed it feeds but slower would be nice. Unfortunately it uses a synchronous clock motor which is locked to the power line frequency and not easily slowed. I even tried running it from a variable frequency but found that below about 45Hz it just sits there and jitters. I contemplated replacing the whole motor with a geared DC motor but life is too short, I just feed the board through multiple times.

The temperature mod was super easy since the board already has two settings that are not hooked up and they're even helpfully labeled on the silkscreen and each pin goes to one of a row of SMT resistors. If I were to do it again, I think I'd use a pot, I forget if the resistance gets higher or lower to raise the temperature but you'll want a fixed resistor in series or parallel with the pot to set a max temperature.

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by bebx2000

I had a Royal Sovereign NR-901 from Sam's Club with a foil setting that worked fairly well. Unfortunately, trying to pass a board that was too small jammed it and stripped something in the gearing which incidentally was all plastic.

I now have a tamerica LP-120 that has a temperature dial with settings from 100 deg C to 160 deg C (and steel gears). At the highest temperature it does a fine job with HP toner. I learned about this laminator here,

http://www.artemlive.com/cgi-bin/news?c=v&id=756

and bought it from here,

http://www.mybinding.com/.sc/ms/dd/ee/1233/T7america-LP-120-4-Inch-Pouch-Laminator

I did have to open it up and and release some of the pressure on the rollers. Also, I cannot attest that the max temperature is 160 deg C. I let it warm-up for 10 or 15 min. and after after 4 passes or so, the board is pretty hot.

I have a theory (probably wrong) that using acetone as the final step in cleaning prior to laminating for the toner transfer promotes adhesion of the toner. The theory being that the residue left after evaporation of the acetone acts as a microscopic surface sensitizer since acetone is a solvent for the toner.

With the aformentioned laminator (at 160 deg C), and the following cleaning process I have been getting 100% yields in making my boards.

Transfer paper: Hp Laser Color Glossy Presentation Paper

cleaning:

(1) Rub a few times with Scotch-Brite (both directions).
(2) Clean with TarnX (oxalic acid), rinse
(3) Immerse in saturated solution of white vinegar and salt (1 min.), rinse
(4) Wipe board with acetone (plenty of acetone), let evaporate.

Laminate:

(1) 4 passes short dimension (each pass rotate 180 deg.)
(2) 4 passes long dimension (each pass rotate 180 deg.)

Baxter


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daemons_ca" <daemons_ca@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello,
> 
> I just joined the group.
>

Re: New here

2010-04-10 by sailingto

Baxter - I just read the link you provided on the T120 laminator - sounds good.  I do like the adjustable thermostat.  I note it's a 4" max width?  That would cover 90%+ of my PCBs - a 4X6" would work nice.... and at $50 the price is not bad at all.  

It sounds like a good deal. Thanks for sharing.

Your procedure for toner transfer sounds very similar to what I do, except most of the time I don't use the TarnX, and I've never tried the white vinegar and salt solution.  I  usually wipe down with alcohol rather than acetone.   

ken H>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: New here

2010-04-11 by KeepIt SimpleStupid

(4) Wipe board with acetone (plenty of acetone), let evaporate.

I'd like to point out that Acetone does leave a film.  You might try Methanol dried with air.  The method we used to use for manual large area glass cleaning  was Trichloroethelene (degreaser) + Acetone + Liquid Freon (effectively banned) and blow off with a filtered air gun. 

I doubt that changing the cleaning technique would help.  The film might actually be beneficial.  The film has a measurable resistance on glass when measured with an electrometer.  A few picoamps at 100 V.

          
              
    
  

  

  
 



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: New here

2010-04-11 by bebx2000

Actually, the acetone is not just to remove any oils. The thought was; if you use acetone to remove the toner after etching, perhaps a residue will help melt the toner on to the substrate, but at the microscopic level. It is very interesting that there is a film. I wasn't certain about this.

This isn't an original idea. I was doing some experiments with glass paint as a solder mask via screen printing and one of the manufacturers

http://www.deltacreative.com/pcid/110/Tips-Technique.aspx

recommended  (paragraph 4 and 5) using their pre-sensitizer before applying the paint. I moved on to UV curable resins because I couldn't develop my technique without some bubbles in the mask. With resins, the issue of bonding to copper without pre-sensitization arose again. Apparently, epoxy-copper bonding is a well known problem; a few of many patents,

3958317
4428987
4844981
6020029
6117536

I don't know if any of this applies to plastic based toner.

I have suspended my quest for a DIY solder mask until it gets warmer in my garage. I was beginning to have some success, but I ran into the problem of adhesion which I think is due UV cure intensity. UV resins cure top down and tinting the resin inhibits the cure at the substrate. I will try a metal-halide lamp when I resume my work.

Quite frankly, I do not have the foggiest idea as to whether the acetone residue is helping or not.

Baxter


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, KeepIt SimpleStupid <keepitsimplestupid@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> (4) Wipe board with acetone (plenty of acetone), let evaporate.
> 
> I'd like to point out that Acetone does leave a film.  You might try Methanol dried with air.  The method we used to use for manual large area glass cleaning  was Trichloroethelene (degreaser) + Acetone + Liquid Freon (effectively banned) and blow off with a filtered air gun. 
> 
> I doubt that changing the cleaning technique would help.  The film might actually be beneficial.  The film has a measurable resistance on glass when measured with an electrometer.  A few picoamps at 100 V.
> 

>

Re: New here

2010-04-11 by James

> I have suspended my quest for a DIY solder mask until it gets warmer in my garage. I was beginning to have some success, but I ran into the problem of adhesion which I think is due UV cure intensity. UV resins cure top down and tinting the resin inhibits the cure at the substrate. I will try a metal-halide lamp when I resume my work.
> 


Metal halide lamps produce relatively little UV, the halide salt vapors absorb it. A clear mercury vapor lamp produces much more, while the bare quartz arc tube from one is a very powerful UV emitter, the latter will produce large amounts of ozone.

Re: New here

2010-04-11 by James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
>
> On 04/09/2010 10:42 PM, daemons_ca wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ken, which IR thermometer off ebay did you buy? What's the model. I'm
> > looking at a few and I'd like to know what to avoid. :) Thanks
> 
> IR thermometers will never work well, by definition, on most shiny 
> surfaces. On the instructions of mine it says to apply some dark duct 
> tape to a part that is shiny, for accuracy. Now, I am not sure I would 
> put duct tape in a laminator :)
> 
> I have bought this:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96451
> for 25USD with a coupon I got in the mail.
> 
> I am extremely satisfied (I use it mostly to cook, to check the 
> oven/pan/pot temperature etc)
> 
> bye
> as
>



I used the IR thermometer to measure the temperature of the rollers directly, I didn't try using it on the pcb.

Re: New here

2010-04-12 by sailingto

I need to try that - I've got to remove cover from my laminator to see the rollers while heating - that would be the best way by far.

Ken H>

Re: New here

2010-04-12 by bebx2000

James,

Thanks for the input. I considered mercury vapor lamps, but I don't care for the discontinuous spectrum. The strong mercury line at 365.483nm is right at the sweet spot for UVA exposure applications, but it is very narrow. Metal-halide does not have as high a peak at 365nm, but has higher off peak intensity.

Here is an excellent article on exposure issues,

http://www.thegrendel.com/Shop/osc/grigar_article2.php

The discussion comes from the screen printing direction, but applies equally well to all UV exposures.

One of the problems with the many DIY exposure boxes, is that the designers  do not have the slightest notion of their exposure intensity which is very important. For example, Dupont has the following recommendations for Riston (in general):

peak wavelength: 350-380nm
>= 5mw/cm2  for >= 5 mil resolution
>= 10mw/cm2 for  3 to 4 mils
>= 20mw/cm2 for < 3 mils
exposure range: 35 mj/cm2 to 150 mj/cm2 (across different variants of Riston) 
 
Since 1 mj = 1mw for 1 second, one should be able to expose any Riston variant in 15 seconds (15sec*10mw=150mj/cm2) with a 10mw/cm2 intensity at the cure surface.

I decided to stop guessing about my exposure intensity and bought a UV radiometer. It is a UVAB meter for the range 280-400nm with NIST traceable calibration at 365 nm.

I have been using a Damar, 25w, blb, spiral, CFL in a parabolic shop light reflector. This bulb has peak emission at 352 nm. that falls off to ~ 0 at 300 nm and 400 nm. I thought this bulb had nice output: WRONG!  The measurements across the bottom of the reflector, at 3" varied from 1.1mw/cm2 to 3.6 mw/cm2  (at the center). I found some data on a NEC blacklight T10 which is made in Japan and I think available in Australia: at the face, 4.82 mw/cm2, at 3", 0.96 mw/cm2, at 6", 0.55 mw/cm2. These data are consistent with my spiral blb. 

I then measured the output from a plain old 20w 120v halogen under cabinet puck with its glass cover which said UV Filter-001. At 3" the reading was 22 mw/cm2 and with the glass cover taken off the reading was 25 mw/cm2. This was quite startling. Halogen bulbs generally have a bad reputation for producing UV. It also implies that all of the UV fluorescent DIY exposure boxes are inefficient designs. Moreover, I think when bulb manufacturers say "UV blocked" they really mean UVB, but do not say so. The percent reduction with the glass shield is about the same content of UVB as in the full UV spectrum for a halogen bulb. 

I am awaiting delivery of my metal-halide unit which is pictured here,

http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=9000100&cat=0&page=1

Unfortunately, I will probably not be able to report an intensity that is greater than 40 mw/cm2. This is the maximum reading for my meter. Moral, read the specs carefully before buying...

Baxter


> Metal halide lamps produce relatively little UV, the halide salt vapors absorb it. A clear mercury vapor lamp produces much more, while the bare quartz arc tube from one is a very powerful UV emitter, the latter will produce large amounts of ozone.
>

Re: New here

2010-04-13 by daemons_ca

James,

I got the TL901 after all. Opened it up today and I see what you mean about the SMT resistors.
So which pin did you use on the connector? From what I can tell, white is return(common), black is 3mil, and brown 5mil.
Black goes to 6K8, and Brown to 3K3. So I'm guessing the lower the resistance the hotter?
I'll want to use a 5K multi-turn trimmer if that's the case.

The lowest resistor on the PCB is a 1K5. What temperature did you get using that? Did you disconnect the other switch? If not, what position did you put it in?

Marc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The temperature mod was super easy since the board already has two settings that are not hooked up and they're even helpfully labeled on the silkscreen and each pin goes to one of a row of SMT resistors. If I were to do it again, I think I'd use a pot, I forget if the resistance gets higher or lower to raise the temperature but you'll want a fixed resistor in series or parallel with the pot to set a max temperature.
>

Re: New here

2010-04-14 by James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daemons_ca" <daemons_ca@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> James,
> 
> I got the TL901 after all. Opened it up today and I see what you mean about the SMT resistors.
> So which pin did you use on the connector? From what I can tell, white is return(common), black is 3mil, and brown 5mil.
> Black goes to 6K8, and Brown to 3K3. So I'm guessing the lower the resistance the hotter?
> I'll want to use a 5K multi-turn trimmer if that's the case.
> 
> The lowest resistor on the PCB is a 1K5. What temperature did you get using that? Did you disconnect the other switch? If not, what position did you put it in?
> 
> Marc



It's been a while since I've had it open so I forget some of the details but the pins were labeled on the silkscreen and the one I used was "HH" which I believe was 1.5K.

I installed a SPDT toggle switch to select between the original thickness switch and the HH pin. Any number of other methods would work just as well though.

Re: New here

2010-04-14 by James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daemons_ca" <daemons_ca@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Good info on toner temps. Thanks.
> 
> I think the TL901 is too low in temperature to use for transfer "as-is" (according to their specs), but I want to get one and have a look at the existing circuit. The pdf posted by josemj1 on modding this model looks interesting, but I'm not sure a new temp controller is required. If the TL901 uses a diode as it's sensor, then it's probably possible to bias the circuit to raise the temp up to 315F. If not, I think I'll have a look at your GBC temp controller and see if it can be used/adapted for the TL901. I don't have a nifty IR thermometer though. Maybe something I should look at getting first.
> 
> I also found a GBC H212 used, non-working. I don't know if it's a good model for PCBs, but it looks like it can be easily modded for the temperature. I hope it's just the fuse, or the temp cut-off and not the control circuit.
> 
> Marc
> 
>


It works out of the box, but modifying it did make a noticeable improvement. The temperature sensor looks like a diode but is actually a thermistor, the circuit is very simple, just some comparators, resistors, and a triac to control the heater.

Re: New here

2010-04-14 by James

> 
> I have been using a Damar, 25w, blb, spiral, CFL in a parabolic shop light reflector. This bulb has peak emission at 352 nm. that falls off to ~ 0 at 300 nm and 400 nm. I thought this bulb had nice output: WRONG!  The measurements across the bottom of the reflector, at 3" varied from 1.1mw/cm2 to 3.6 mw/cm2  (at the center). I found some data on a NEC blacklight T10 which is made in Japan and I think available in Australia: at the face, 4.82 mw/cm2, at 3", 0.96 mw/cm2, at 6", 0.55 mw/cm2. These data are consistent with my spiral blb. 
> 


That's an interesting article, lots of good info. Keep in mind that there are *many* different types of metal halide lamps, each with different spectral characteristics. Some incorporate much better UV blocking than others as well.

I'm not surprised about the BLB lamp, the Woods glass used in filtered blacklights absorbs much of the useful UV output as well. When I do UV exposure I use an unfiltered BL UV lamp intended for a bug zapper. I don't have proper measurement gear but it works fine and produces consistent results, although I mostly use toner transfer these days.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I then measured the output from a plain old 20w 120v halogen under cabinet puck with its glass cover which said UV Filter-001. At 3" the reading was 22 mw/cm2 and with the glass cover taken off the reading was 25 mw/cm2. This was quite startling. Halogen bulbs generally have a bad reputation for producing UV. It also implies that all of the UV fluorescent DIY exposure boxes are inefficient designs. Moreover, I think when bulb manufacturers say "UV blocked" they really mean UVB, but do not say so. The percent reduction with the glass shield is about the same content of UVB as in the full UV spectrum for a halogen bulb. 
> 
> I am awaiting delivery of my metal-halide unit which is pictured here,
> 
> http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=9000100&cat=0&page=1
> 
> Unfortunately, I will probably not be able to report an intensity that is greater than 40 mw/cm2. This is the maximum reading for my meter. Moral, read the specs carefully before buying...
> 
> Baxter
> 
> 
> > Metal halide lamps produce relatively little UV, the halide salt vapors absorb it. A clear mercury vapor lamp produces much more, while the bare quartz arc tube from one is a very powerful UV emitter, the latter will produce large amounts of ozone.
> >
>

Re: New here

2010-04-14 by daemons_ca

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jamesrsweet@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "daemons_ca" daemons_ca@ wrote:
> >
> > James,
> >
> > I got the TL901 after all. Opened it up today and I see what you
mean about the SMT resistors.
> > So which pin did you use on the connector? From what I can tell,
white is return(common), black is 3mil, and brown 5mil.
> > Black goes to 6K8, and Brown to 3K3. So I'm guessing the lower the
resistance the hotter?
> > I'll want to use a 5K multi-turn trimmer if that's the case.
> >
> > The lowest resistor on the PCB is a 1K5. What temperature did you
get using that? Did you disconnect the other switch? If not, what
position did you put it in?
> >
>
> It's been a while since I've had it open so I forget some of the
details but the pins were labeled on the silkscreen and the one I used
was "HH" which I believe was 1.5K.
>
> I installed a SPDT toggle switch to select between the original
thickness switch and the HH pin. Any number of other methods would work
just as well though.
>

Yes, the HH is a 1K5. Good. I like the SPDT idea. I'll stick with it.
You didn't mention, what temperature do you get from using this setting?

I'll keep you posted.

Marc

Re: New here

2010-04-14 by James

> 
> Yes, the HH is a 1K5. Good. I like the SPDT idea. I'll stick with it.
> You didn't mention, what temperature do you get from using this setting?
> 
> I'll keep you posted.
> 
> Marc
>


I don't recall the precise temperature, but I think it was close to 300F. I tried a transfer and got great results, pretty much just buttoned it up and left it at that.

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