Homebrew PCBs

I do not plan to do much through-hole (for this reason I am reluctant in
investing in something pricey/bulky) but I occasionally need to make holes.

I have bought some carbide bits at harborfreigh and I have a dremel; on
the other hand, I've been told those bits can  break easily (well I
think one can break them just by watching them too much, they are so small)

What is the recommended solution?

Thank you!
Alessio

You need a drill press / stand to guide the drill.
You can either buy or build.

If you build, you can easily make a pivoting drill stand, mount the
drill motor to an arm about a foot long, and hinge the arm on the
other end so that it can swing up and down. The couple of millimeters
in travel will be straight enough not to break drills, even though the
drill moves in an arc not a straight line.

You can also use sufficiently thin and flexible arms and do away with
the hinges. In this case you should have two arms to guide the drill
in a parallel motion (like a double wishbone suspension setup).

Mind that the drill needs side-to-side guidance too, so you need a
wide arm, a triangular shape will work well too and you can simply cut
it from plywood and use a piano hinge at the back edge.

You also want a depth stop, and some spring action return is nice.
Make provisions for dust extraction with a vacuum cleaner if you drill
glass fiber boards.

If you buy, you pretty much just need to make sure there is no
excessive play in the apparatus.


BTW I recommend to use a Proxxon drill instead of a dremel. It comes
with more precise hard steel collets and offers less runout. The cheap
12V versions are plenty strong even for large holes in PCBs and also
much quieter than a dremel.

ST

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:
> I do not plan to do much through-hole (for this reason I am reluctant in
> investing in something pricey/bulky) but I occasionally need to make holes.
>
> I have bought some carbide bits at harborfreigh and I have a dremel; on
> the other hand, I've been told those bits can  break easily (well I
> think one can break them just by watching them too much, they are so small)
>
> What is the recommended solution?
>
> Thank you!
> Alessio

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> You need a drill press / stand to guide the drill.
> You can either buy or build.

Thanks for the tips.

I still think that would be a bit overkill to me... what do you think if
I try these with my dremel by hand:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?itemnumber=94606&Submit=Go

even if they do not last many holes:
- I am not drilling much
- they have many bits in a package
- it's cheap

bye
as

I would try, first, a cheap homemade setup like this:
http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/
(look up for "dremel drill press" or just "dremel" thread in the group posts
Though some users says dremels suffer from a little runout.


Jose



----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Alessio Sangalli" <alesan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:06 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drill holes


>I do not plan to do much through-hole (for this reason I am reluctant in
> investing in something pricey/bulky) but I occasionally need to make 
> holes.
>
> I have bought some carbide bits at harborfreigh and I have a dremel; on
> the other hand, I've been told those bits can  break easily (well I
> think one can break them just by watching them too much, they are so 
> small)
>
> What is the recommended solution?
>
> Thank you!
> Alessio
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

The HSS bits will be fine for maybe 30 holes or so before
resharpening. Geometry doesn't matter nearly as much as when drilling
metals, so you can easily sharpen them.
If you don't plan on too many holes, it'll work, and they can be used
freehand without breaking.

Carbide drills make nicer holes for longer, but if that doesn't matter
HSS will be OK. You can buy 10 packs of just the size you need for
very little money.

What I noticed is drill hardness makes a big difference with FR4. If
you get a soft drill you may not be able to do even one hole. Recently
I tried to drill a 2.5mm hole and had to give up on the drill after
resharpening it 5 times. Obviously this drill (source unknown) was
much softer than proper HSS drills, it rounded out immediately upon
contact with the fiberglass. The next drill I tried completed the hole
with no apparent dulling.

Let's hope the harbour freight drills are decent hardness despite their origin.

ST

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the tips.
>
> I still think that would be a bit overkill to me... what do you think if
> I try these with my dremel by hand:
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?itemnumber=94606&Submit=Go
>
> even if they do not last many holes:
> - I am not drilling much
> - they have many bits in a package
> - it's cheap
>
> bye
> as
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Alessio Sangalli" <alesan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 9:06 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Drill holes


>I do not plan to do much through-hole (for this reason I am reluctant in
> investing in something pricey/bulky) but I occasionally need to make 
> holes.
>
> I have bought some carbide bits at harborfreigh and I have a dremel; on
> the other hand, I've been told those bits can  break easily (well I
> think one can break them just by watching them too much, they are so 
> small)
>
> What is the recommended solution?

Use a drill stand. Carbide drills can't be used with a hand-held drill.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "JMB" <123@...> wrote:
>
> I would try, first, a cheap homemade setup like this:
> http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/
> (look up for "dremel drill press" or just "dremel" thread in the group posts
> Though some users says dremels suffer from a little runout.


Since you already have a Dremel tool just get a Dremel Stand to go with it.  Maybe not the best but they do work, done many 1000's of holes using one.
http://www.dremel.com/en-us/AttachmentsAndAccessories/Pages/AttachmentsDetail.aspx?pid=220-01

Ben

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 01:43:39 -0700, you wrote:

>Stefan Trethan wrote:
>> You need a drill press / stand to guide the drill.
>> You can either buy or build.
>
>Thanks for the tips.
>
>I still think that would be a bit overkill to me... what do you think if
>I try these with my dremel by hand:

You'll break them.

It doesn't matter how many drills in the package, they're a random
size, so good luck getting the ones you want to use.

If you really don't want to buy and break carbide bits by drilling by
hand, then a cheap HF drill press (40 USD or so where available and on
sale) would work.  Not wonderful, but it would work.  You could either
use the carbide bits or just go and buy regular hss bits (Internet,
they're available), which don't last long, but then again, don't break
and are somewhat flexible.

I use a dremel tool on a stand, and can second the comment about the
runout of the collets.  May end up trying a proxxon tool myself.

Harvey

>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?itemnumber=94606&Submit=Go
>
>even if they do not last many holes:
>- I am not drilling much
>- they have many bits in a package
>- it's cheap
>
>bye
>as
>

My experience in the conversion from through-hole to SMT is that a good number of drill holes come back in the form of vias. Perhaps not as many, but enough to want a drill press.

Regards,
Royce

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:

>
> I do not plan to do much through-hole (for this reason I am reluctant in
> investing in something pricey/bulky) but I occasionally need to make holes.
> 
> I have bought some carbide bits at harborfreigh and I have a dremel; on
> the other hand, I've been told those bits can  break easily (well I
> think one can break them just by watching them too much, they are so small)
> 
> What is the recommended solution?
> 
> Thank you!
> Alessio
>

http://drillcity.stores.yahoo.net/

I have purchased bits from here.  Some are discounted quite a bit due to
them being
re-sharpened.  These folks have been in business several years.

Just thought you might like to find a place to get reasonable bits cheap
especially
for hobby use.

(I am just a customer, no other affiliations.)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alessio,

Stefan's advice is spot on..

half an hour with some MDF and a couple of hinges and you can build a drill press good enough to save breaking carbide bits.

And a cheap dremel type tool will be fine to start with..
but the investment in a slightly more expensive proxxon is well worth it in the longer term and it is capable of all kids of jobs. They are buiult with greater precision than the dremmels, the collets are three jaw steel and centre the drills much better than the 4 jaw ones that fit a dremmel

I started with a cheap dremmel knock off, graduated to a Proxxon IB/E with a homemade drill press, then a homemade foot operated drill press. Currently I'm using a CNC micro mill with a proxxon attached to it and about to build a new CNC machine specifically for drilling which will be much faster. The new machine will still use a proxxon as the spindle ..  in fact the same proxxon that has drilled all my boards for the last few years !


I can get many thousands of holes from a carbide bit..

Chris




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alessio Sangalli <alesan@...> wrote:

>
> I do not plan to do much through-hole (for this reason I am reluctant in
> investing in something pricey/bulky) but I occasionally need to make holes.
> 
> I have bought some carbide bits at harborfreigh and I have a dremel; on
> the other hand, I've been told those bits can  break easily (well I
> think one can break them just by watching them too much, they are so small)
> 
> What is the recommended solution?
> 
> Thank you!
> Alessio
>

He won't, since he is looking at HSS for now not carbide.

I have personally used HSS drills freehand for a couple of years, and
it will be fine, although of course they dull very soon.
Still very acceptable for a few boards per year.

ST

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 4:23 PM, Harvey White <madyn@embarqmail.com> wrote:

> You'll break them.
>
> It doesn't matter how many drills in the package, they're a random
> size, so good luck getting the ones you want to use.
>
> If you really don't want to buy and break carbide bits by drilling by
> hand, then a cheap HF drill press (40 USD or so where available and on
> sale) would work.  Not wonderful, but it would work.  You could either
> use the carbide bits or just go and buy regular hss bits (Internet,
> they're available), which don't last long, but then again, don't break
> and are somewhat flexible.
>
> I use a dremel tool on a stand, and can second the comment about the
> runout of the collets.  May end up trying a proxxon tool myself.
>
> Harvey

Actually the 12V Proxxon units are cheaper than dremel and use the
same precision collets. Runout seems good too.

The IB/E is a nice tool, I have one too, but has a few shortcomings.
One is that the business end shaft is very short, no distance between
the bearings. Actually I'm not sure if the shaft is even guided by a
second bearing, or just one and the motor coupling. This leads to
severe knocking on the IB/E under excessive side loads, not that it
matters with PCB drilling.
The reason I elaborate on it is to recommend going for the long neck
version of the IB/E instead. It has a great distance between the
bearings and should prove much better at handling side loads. One must
admit that the Dremel has the advantage of the single spindle in that
regard, but I would still go for the Proxxon despite this, only the
long neck instead of the standard IB/E.

ST

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:

> And a cheap dremel type tool will be fine to start with..
> but the investment in a slightly more expensive proxxon is well worth it in the longer term and it is capable of all kids of jobs. They are buiult with greater precision than the dremmels, the collets are three jaw steel and centre the drills much better than the 4 jaw ones that fit a dremmel
>
> I started with a cheap dremmel knock off, graduated to a Proxxon IB/E with a homemade drill press, then a homemade foot operated drill press. Currently I'm using a CNC micro mill with a proxxon attached to it and about to build a new CNC machine specifically for drilling which will be much faster. The new machine will still use a proxxon as the spindle ..  in fact the same proxxon that has drilled all my boards for the last few years !
>
>
> I can get many thousands of holes from a carbide bit..
>
> Chris

Stefan,

I find only one model of the IB/E on the Proxxon web site. It is in the 
"Hand-held Power Tools 115V" section and is referred to as "Professional 
Rotary Tool IB/E". Is that the long neck version? Or is there another 
model I have not found?

Thanks.

Steve K8JQ

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> Actually the 12V Proxxon units are cheaper than dremel and use the
> same precision collets. Runout seems good too.
>
> The IB/E is a nice tool, I have one too, but has a few shortcomings.
> One is that the business end shaft is very short, no distance between
> the bearings. Actually I'm not sure if the shaft is even guided by a
> second bearing, or just one and the motor coupling. This leads to
> severe knocking on the IB/E under excessive side loads, not that it
> matters with PCB drilling.
> The reason I elaborate on it is to recommend going for the long neck
> version of the IB/E instead. It has a great distance between the
> bearings and should prove much better at handling side loads. One must
> admit that the Dremel has the advantage of the single spindle in that
> regard, but I would still go for the Proxxon despite this, only the
> long neck instead of the standard IB/E.
>
> ST
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:
>
>   
>> And a cheap dremel type tool will be fine to start with..
>> but the investment in a slightly more expensive proxxon is well worth it in the longer term and it is capable of all kids of jobs. They are buiult with greater precision than the dremmels, the collets are three jaw steel and centre the drills much better than the 4 jaw ones that fit a dremmel
>>
>> I started with a cheap dremmel knock off, graduated to a Proxxon IB/E with a homemade drill press, then a homemade foot operated drill press. Currently I'm using a CNC micro mill with a proxxon attached to it and about to build a new CNC machine specifically for drilling which will be much faster. The new machine will still use a proxxon as the spindle ..  in fact the same proxxon that has drilled all my boards for the last few years !
>>
>>
>> I can get many thousands of holes from a carbide bit..
>>
>> Chris
>>     
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Read The Patriot   It's Right -- It's Free
http://PatriotPost.US/subscribe/ Veritas vos Liberabit

Indeed it is not listed in the english version, strange...

Navigate through the german version to "Langhals-Bohrschleifer LB/E" to see it.

ST

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:
> Stefan,
>
> I find only one model of the IB/E on the Proxxon web site. It is in the
> "Hand-held Power Tools 115V" section and is referred to as "Professional
> Rotary Tool IB/E". Is that the long neck version? Or is there another
> model I have not found?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve K8JQ

In a message dated 4/18/2009 3:06:53 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
alesan@... writes:

What  is the recommended solution?<<
A fairly precise small drill-press.  Carbide drill-bits smaller than  about 
3 mm are impossible in a hand-held Dremel!



**************Check all of your email inboxes from anywhere on the web.  
Try the new Email Toolbar now! 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:11:46 EDT
JanRwl@... wrote:

> What  is the recommended solution?<<
> A fairly precise small drill-press.  Carbide drill-bits smaller than
> about 3 mm are impossible in a hand-held Dremel!

Don't forget DJ's simple solution:

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/

John

I found it on the German web site. A google search of numerous US web 
sites suggests it is not sold in this country.

If anyone should find the long neck version for sale in the US, please 
point it out to me.

Thanks.

Steve K8JQ

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> Indeed it is not listed in the english version, strange...
>
> Navigate through the german version to "Langhals-Bohrschleifer LB/E" to see it.
>
> ST
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:
>   
>> Stefan,
>>
>> I find only one model of the IB/E on the Proxxon web site. It is in the
>> "Hand-held Power Tools 115V" section and is referred to as "Professional
>> Rotary Tool IB/E". Is that the long neck version? Or is there another
>> model I have not found?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Steve K8JQ
>>     
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Read The Patriot   It's Right -- It's Free
http://PatriotPost.US/subscribe/ Veritas vos Liberabit

Much better made than the one I made in 30 minutes

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/album/1443303729/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&&dir=asc

which is also foot operated by the wire which pulls down through the middle..

When I looked back at the pics I noticed that I didn't use the proxxon at the time, it was a very old minicraft drill that had already drilled over 20,000 4mm holes when I had my factory..  It happened to be lying around so I used it..

If the drill is going to be left in the drill press, then the quality probably doesn't matter as much..  this one actually has a 3 jaw chuck rather than a collet.

I think the moral is..  a few bits of wood cobbled together to make a drill press allows even the roughest micro drill to use carbide bits succesfully.

Chris

ps...   and I couldn't find an LB/E in 115 volts either  :-(



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Coppens <john@...> wrote:

>
> On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:11:46 EDT
> JanRwl@... wrote:
> 
> > What  is the recommended solution?<<
> > A fairly precise small drill-press.  Carbide drill-bits smaller than
> > about 3 mm are impossible in a hand-held Dremel!
> 
> Don't forget DJ's simple solution:
> 
> http://www.delorie.com/pcb/dremel-stand/
> 
> John
>

That's really strange, since the IB/E LB/E and angle drill use the
same motor assembly. There is no reason not to put the 115V motor on a
long neck front end.
Maybe you want to drop an email at Proxxon asking about it? They are
usually pretty responsive.

ST

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Steve <steve65@...> wrote:
> I found it on the German web site. A google search of numerous US web
> sites suggests it is not sold in this country.
>
> If anyone should find the long neck version for sale in the US, please
> point it out to me.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Steve K8JQ
>
> Stefan Trethan wrote:
>> Indeed it is not listed in the english version, strange...
>>
>> Navigate through the german version to "Langhals-Bohrschleifer LB/E" to see it.
>>
>> ST
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Steve <steve65@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Stefan,
>>>
>>> I find only one model of the IB/E on the Proxxon web site. It is in the
>>> "Hand-held Power Tools 115V" section and is referred to as "Professional
>>> Rotary Tool IB/E". Is that the long neck version? Or is there another
>>> model I have not found?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Steve K8JQ
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Read The Patriot   It's Right -- It's Free
> http://PatriotPost.US/subscribe/ Veritas vos Liberabit
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Right, now i'm disappointed at proxxon.
The LB/E doesn't have a second bearing like I thought it had.

Below are the manuals, at the last page are assembly drawings.


<http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/800000-824999/823820-an-02-de-BOHRSCHLEIFER_IB_E.pdf>
<http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/825000-849999/826796-an-01-de-LANGHALS_BOHRSCHLEIFER_LB_E.pdf>
<http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/800000-824999/800899-an-02-de-BOHR_FRAESGERAET_MICROMOT_50.pdf>
<http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/800000-824999/806358-an-01-ml-Feinbohrschleifer_de-en.pdf>

The LB/E should still handle side loads much better due to the long
distance to the motor bearing, but loading this bearing through the
weak motor shaft and coupler is in my mind very poor form. I have
expericed severe knocking when the IB/E is heavily overloaded with
side load. It says in the manual you shouldn't do it, and I backed off
right quick, but one must admit that the Dremel concept with the
single shaft is better in this respect. I'd still buy a proxxon ;-).


ST

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> That's really strange, since the IB/E LB/E and angle drill use the
> same motor assembly. There is no reason not to put the 115V motor on a
> long neck front end.
> Maybe you want to drop an email at Proxxon asking about it? They are
> usually pretty responsive.
>
> ST
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Steve <steve65@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>> I found it on the German web site. A google search of numerous US web
>> sites suggests it is not sold in this country.
>>
>> If anyone should find the long neck version for sale in the US, please
>> point it out to me.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Steve K8JQ
>>
>> Stefan Trethan wrote:
>>> Indeed it is not listed in the english version, strange...
>>>
>>> Navigate through the german version to "Langhals-Bohrschleifer LB/E" to see it.
>>>
>>> ST
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Steve <steve65@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stefan,
>>>>
>>>> I find only one model of the IB/E on the Proxxon web site. It is in the
>>>> "Hand-held Power Tools 115V" section and is referred to as "Professional
>>>> Rotary Tool IB/E". Is that the long neck version? Or is there another
>>>> model I have not found?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Steve K8JQ
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Read The Patriot   It's Right -- It's Free
>> http://PatriotPost.US/subscribe/ Veritas vos Liberabit
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>