Homebrew PCBs

To those people who were interested in how I were applying dry film 
photoresist using "wet lamination", please visit:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html

regards,

Adam

Adam,

Thanks for shareing this with us. Interesting method. If I find the time 
I may also shoot sompe pictures of how I do it - not that you would not 
know, but eventually for others interested.

Markus

Adam Seychell schrieb:

>
>
> To those people who were interested in how I were applying dry film
> photoresist using "wet lamination", please visit:
>
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html 
> <http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Eeseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html>
>
> regards,
>
> Adam
>
>

Thanks for the tutorial!  I noticed your board is pre-drilled... do
you always drill first?  Any tips there?  I usually used the etched
dimple as a drill guide.

I could be wrong, but the way his board looks, and from what I know from 
Adams past postings to this group, it seems to be through plated. There 
you obviousely must drill bevor you plate and then expose, developp, 
etch etc etc.

Markus

DJ Delorie schrieb:

>
>
> Thanks for the tutorial! I noticed your board is pre-drilled... do
> you always drill first? Any tips there? I usually used the etched
> dimple as a drill guide.
>
>

Yes that's exactly true Markus. Although this particular PCB was single 
sided and was pre drilled only because of convention.

I only tried hot roll lamination once and having discovered the problems 
of handling this film I looked at using wet lamination. I discovered 
this method was possible and so I investigated and experimented. The 
thing I like about it is the utilisation of water to wash away 
particles. Its also difficult peeling away the film and not letting the 
photoresist touch itself, because when it does you can't release it and 
it useless.
You obviously had spent the time and achieved much more success and than 
me with hot lamination. I'd be interested in seeing photos.

Is your typewriter paper on the copper side of the PCB before it goes 
into the laminator ?  I envisioned you used the paper to temporarily 
separate the dry film photoresist and the copper surface prior to hot 
roll lamination. Once the start of the PCB and photoresist film have 
entered the rollers the paper was dragged out at same rate as the 
rollers thus leaving a small distance where the photoresist and copper 
are in close contact, but not long enough to take adhesion.

Adam

Markus Zingg wrote:

> I could be wrong, but the way his board looks, and from what I know from 
> Adams past postings to this group, it seems to be through plated. There 
> you obviousely must drill bevor you plate and then expose, developp, 
> etch etc etc.
> 
> Markus
> 
> DJ Delorie schrieb:
>>
>> Thanks for the tutorial! I noticed your board is pre-drilled... do
>> you always drill first? Any tips there? I usually used the etched
>> dimple as a drill guide.
>>
>>  
> 
>

DJ Delorie wrote:
> Thanks for the tutorial!  I noticed your board is pre-drilled... do
> you always drill first?  Any tips there?  I usually used the etched
> dimple as a drill guide.
> 

thanks.  As Markus said, for PTH PCBs the holes must be pre-drilled. I 
was always too scared to etch dimples and rely on the carbide drill bit 
wondering into the centre and breaking off. I print a drill guide sheet 
printed on glossy photo inkjet paper and tape it to the PCB material. 
The guide also identifies each hole size too.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>
wrote:
>
> 
> To those people who were interested in how I were applying dry film 
> photoresist using "wet lamination", please visit:
> 
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html
> 
> regards,
> 
> Adam
>


Thanks for posting this.  It sheds new light on a mystery that was
starting to bother me.  

-- Dave

I would really like to see how you do it, too.  Like many processes
(especially relating to photochemical systems) it seems some methods
work better for some folks than others.

-- Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
wrote:
>
> Adam,
> 
> Thanks for shareing this with us. Interesting method. If I find the
time 
> I may also shoot sompe pictures of how I do it - not that you would not 
> know, but eventually for others interested.
> 
> Markus
> 
> Adam Seychell schrieb:
> >
> >
> > To those people who were interested in how I were applying dry film
> > photoresist using "wet lamination", please visit:
> >
> > http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html 
> >
<http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Eeseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html>

> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Adam
> >
> >
>

I created a little photoalbum showeing the process. I don't know if the 
link below will work (had some troubles in the past with it here) and as 
always, the group moderator first must aprove the pictures but still...

http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/browse/b99e

Note, Adam describes that he uses pliers to seperate the protection foil 
from the laminate. I always use electric isolation tape for this 
purpose. I cut two short pieces off, stick a very small part of one to a 
corner of the laminate, then stick the second one to the oposite side 
and tear the two apart. Since the tape sticks harder to the laminate and 
protection foil than the protective foil to the laminate the two 
seperate easily. I thereafter remove the tape. Note, I always use the 
part of the foil that I stick onto the typewriter paper (see in the pics).

HTH

Markus

pork_u_pine2000 schrieb:

>
> I would really like to see how you do it, too. Like many processes
> (especially relating to photochemical systems) it seems some methods
> work better for some folks than others.
>
> -- Dave
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Adam,
> >
> > Thanks for shareing this with us. Interesting method. If I find the
> time
> > I may also shoot sompe pictures of how I do it - not that you would not
> > know, but eventually for others interested.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> > Adam Seychell schrieb:
> > >
> > >
> > > To those people who were interested in how I were applying dry film
> > > photoresist using "wet lamination", please visit:
> > >
> > > 
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html 
> <http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Eeseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html>
> > >
> <http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Eeseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html 
> <http://members.optusnet.com.au/%7Eeseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html>>
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Markus Zingg wrote:
> I created a little photoalbum showeing the process. I don't know if the 
> link below will work (had some troubles in the past with it here) and as 
> always, the group moderator first must aprove the pictures but still...
> 
> http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/browse/b99e

thanks for the photos. I see you don't have problem with resist sticking 
to the copper at cold regions of the board.

> Note, Adam describes that he uses pliers to seperate the protection foil 
> from the laminate. I always use electric isolation tape for this 
> purpose. I cut two short pieces off, stick a very small part of one to a 
> corner of the laminate, then stick the second one to the oposite side 
> and tear the two apart. Since the tape sticks harder to the laminate and 
> protection foil than the protective foil to the laminate the two 
> seperate easily. I thereafter remove the tape. Note, I always use the 
> part of the foil that I stick onto the typewriter paper (see in the pics).

I once tried your method and found the sticky tape would pull the thin 
protective exposure side polyester film instead of the backing layer 
which is a thicker polyethylene film. Even so, you now have to safely 
remove the sticky tape that is now stuck to the exposure side film.

I found tweezers was the way to go. But then another problem was when 
peeling away the backing film is a good chance the photoresist film 
curling back on its self rendering it useless (similar to how sticky 
sides of sticky tape making contact, i.e impossible to separate). The 
dry film photoresist being held by water surface tension on to a sheet 
of laser printer transparency solved the curling back problem from ever 
happening again.


Adam

Adam,

It might be a question related to what kind of dryfilm resist one is 
haveing. I so far only had the ocasion to try two different products. 
One was from a british manufacturer (don't know exactly anymore) and now 
I use OrdylAlpha (which is IMHO a product from somewhere in aisa). With 
none of the two I ever had the case that the exposure side polyester 
film came off first and I did many many many times already. In fact, 
with the products I used so far, the backing layer comes of very easily, 
that said I use those tape stripes probably for 10 PCBs up until I 
change them. Removeing the sticky tape on the exposure side is no 
problem either because it sticks in the area that I later press to the 
typewriter paper (in other words to an area that is cut off anyways 
after lamination). I may should also say that the average area that I 
ever cover with tape is as smal as aproximately 5 x 5mm on one of the 
corner sides.

I could not imageing doing this with tweezers, but this IMHO is a 
perfect sample for the fact that many roads lead to rome :-) I mean the 
most important thing is that the problem gets solved and I'm glad we 
could show at least two ways to savely do it so anyone who is new into 
this might pick the method he feels most comfortable with.

Markus

Adam Seychell schrieb:

>
> Markus Zingg wrote:
> > I created a little photoalbum showeing the process. I don't know if the
> > link below will work (had some troubles in the past with it here) 
> and as
> > always, the group moderator first must aprove the pictures but still...
> >
> > 
> http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/browse/b99e 
> <http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/browse/b99e>
>
> thanks for the photos. I see you don't have problem with resist sticking
> to the copper at cold regions of the board.
>
> > Note, Adam describes that he uses pliers to seperate the protection 
> foil
> > from the laminate. I always use electric isolation tape for this
> > purpose. I cut two short pieces off, stick a very small part of one 
> to a
> > corner of the laminate, then stick the second one to the oposite side
> > and tear the two apart. Since the tape sticks harder to the laminate 
> and
> > protection foil than the protective foil to the laminate the two
> > seperate easily. I thereafter remove the tape. Note, I always use the
> > part of the foil that I stick onto the typewriter paper (see in the 
> pics).
>
> I once tried your method and found the sticky tape would pull the thin
> protective exposure side polyester film instead of the backing layer
> which is a thicker polyethylene film. Even so, you now have to safely
> remove the sticky tape that is now stuck to the exposure side film.
>
> I found tweezers was the way to go. But then another problem was when
> peeling away the backing film is a good chance the photoresist film
> curling back on its self rendering it useless (similar to how sticky
> sides of sticky tape making contact, i.e impossible to separate). The
> dry film photoresist being held by water surface tension on to a sheet
> of laser printer transparency solved the curling back problem from ever
> happening again.
>
> Adam
>
>

Thats a great addition to your site Adam. Thanks.

Can double sided boards be laminated this way?
How susceptible to damage is the first side resist when applying the
second side? 

-Art

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>
wrote:

>
> 
> To those people who were interested in how I were applying dry film 
> photoresist using "wet lamination", please visit:
> 
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/photoresist/index.html
> 
> regards,
> 
> Adam
>

Thanks Adam, great information.
I haven't been here for a while and i have missed out on where to buy
the Photo resist if it was mentioned in other threads. Can someone let
me know where it is available from in Australia or at least where I
can purchase some from without too much hassle. Also what sort of
quantity would I need to buy.

Thanks Philip

Markus Zingg wrote:
> 
> I could not imageing doing this with tweezers, but this IMHO is a 
> perfect sample for the fact that many roads lead to rome :-) I mean the 
> most important thing is that the problem gets solved and I'm glad we 
> could show at least two ways to savely do it so anyone who is new into 
> this might pick the method he feels most comfortable with.
> 

I agree, its good to know there is more than one way. If anyone wants to 
go try it out for them selves then they know the method isn't that critical.
There is a lot more time I could spent on web page and turn it into a 
proper tutorial. I should do it when I get the time.

You can go to www.pcbhobbyist.com for more information or send me a
private message.
No problems shipping to Australia. I have had 3 other orders from
there so far.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "electrophilip"
<electrophil@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Adam, great information.
> I haven't been here for a while and i have missed out on where to buy
> the Photo resist if it was mentioned in other threads. Can someone let
> me know where it is available from in Australia or at least where I
> can purchase some from without too much hassle. Also what sort of
> quantity would I need to buy.
> 
> Thanks Philip
>

Hi,
i\ufffdm building a new pcb plating process line from plain PP sheets and
http://www.orbi-tech.de/seiten_englisch/heating_welding_rod.htm .
This permit creating the processing chambers with minimal chemistry.
I\ufffdm located in EU, and if someone need a similar process chamber, mail me.
I will order the wires in 2-3 weeks.

Regards
Chris
-- 
GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
f\ufffdr nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02

Hi Chris,

Brush Plating is probably using less solution then tank plating.

I am interested to learn more about your pcb plating process line and

Chemistry recipes that you may have


Best Regards,

Lou

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of nisma@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:14 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] trougth hole processing chambers.

 






Hi,
i´m building a new pcb plating process line from plain PP sheets and
http://www.orbi-tech.de/seiten_englisch/heating_welding_rod.htm .
This permit creating the processing chambers with minimal chemistry.
I´m located in EU, and if someone need a similar process chamber, mail me.
I will order the wires in 2-3 weeks.

Regards
Chris
-- 
GMX FreeDSL Komplettanschluss mit DSL 6.000 Flatrate und Telefonanschluss
für nur 17,95 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 14:06 -0400, Lou Holec wrote:
> Brush Plating is probably using less solution then tank plating.

I guess this thing is to weld plastics, and seem great to do thin tanks,
since the working space isn't enough. But from the explanation 'a
voltage is attached between the fixed Heating-Welding-Rod an the
neighbouring parts' Where is the other connection done? the heating
resistor has only one wire??? 


About chemistry, i am to in a fight between finding the good one to have
at home, what them are and prices, i think heaven found a way to mix the
bungard palladium based chemistry (Ethanolamine+PEG;NaCL+HCl;Pd+PVP
+HCL;K2CO3) at home using palladium bullion coins as source of palladium
(palladium metal+nitric acid+EG+PVP+ultrasonic stiring or NaOH), but
isn't more cheaper do it, and is a chemistry that need much rising water
and a water treatment system. After various readings i am now more in
the wish if a simplified version other german chemistry (polythiophene
based) will work, just the permanganate desmear and a PVP bath as
activation, since this can be just drain without problems. But i don't
know if the PVP will just bond to the MnO2 treated resin.

My question: how will you Chris treat your rising water?

> Hi,
> i�m building a new pcb plating process line from plain PP sheets and
> http://www.orbi-tech.de/seiten_englisch/heating_welding_rod.htm .
> This permit creating the processing chambers with minimal chemistry.
> I�m located in EU, and if someone need a similar process chamber, mail
> me.
> I will order the wires in 2-3 weeks.
> 
> Regards
> Chris

>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Simao Cardoso <simaocardoso@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 14:06 -0400, Lou Holec wrote:
> > Brush Plating is probably using less solution then tank plating.
> 
> I guess this thing is to weld plastics, and seem great to do thin tanks,
> since the working space isn't enough. But from the explanation 'a
> voltage is attached between the fixed Heating-Welding-Rod an the
> neighbouring parts' Where is the other connection done? the heating
> resistor has only one wire??? 
Yes, the connection is to made at the two opposite wires ends.
There is a plastic rod, with the heating wire wrapped around.
Apply tension to the wire connecting both ends of the wire to a
lab psu, wait the time for heating, apply pressure, and waiting for
cooling down. That´s the procedure.

> About chemistry, i am to in a fight between finding the good one to have
> at home, what them are and prices, i think heaven found a way to mix the
> bungard palladium based chemistry (Ethanolamine+PEG;NaCL+HCl;Pd+PVP
> +HCL;K2CO3) at home using palladium bullion coins as source of palladium
> (palladium metal+nitric acid+EG+PVP+ultrasonic stiring or NaOH), but
> isn't more cheaper do it, and is a chemistry that need much rising water
> and a water treatment system. After various readings i am now more in
> the wish if a simplified version other german chemistry (polythiophene
> based) will work, just the permanganate desmear and a PVP bath as
> activation, since this can be just drain without problems. But i don't
> know if the PVP will just bond to the MnO2 treated resin.
> 
> My question: how will you Chris treat your rising water?

For the polymer based solution, i have tested it.
Working with fresh solution is ok, but for now, 
i have used chemistry aging issues. Neverless, the cost is 1-2 Euro each operation (Eurocard size) or multiple of it, and for home use,
 it´s really attractive. 

To return to you´r question.
Vacuum distillation. The only cheap/right way to do it.
I have speaked a lot with water waste threadment companys, that
have experience in pcb production. I have the reactivating procedure for the water threadment resin that bungard sell, but all concord, that the vacuum distillation method is the
best/cheapest. In addition, the resulting concentrate liquid could
be added to the chemistry, and the water reused.  
As example, at 25mH, the Water boils at 25 degree. 
My working point is 30 degree, with 20-25 degree cooling (water) coil,
without using external compressor or peltier modules.
It´s really simple building such a system.

> 
> 
> > Hi,
> > i´m building a new pcb plating process line from plain PP sheets and
> > http://www.orbi-tech.de/seiten_englisch/heating_welding_rod.htm .
> > This permit creating the processing chambers with minimal chemistry.
> > I´m located in EU, and if someone need a similar process chamber, mail
> > me.
> > I will order the wires in 2-3 weeks.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Chris
> 
> >
>

On Fri, 2009-06-12 at 11:53 +0000, scx31114 wrote:
> 
> Yes, the connection is to made at the two opposite wires ends.
> 

It seem to me the 'neighbouring parts' was the plastic boards so my
surprise. So is a 'heating tube/wire' bought at any length and you make
both connections yourself. Ok don't worth the bits this questions. I
think will use my hot air rework soldering station if i damage the
heater i already bought one as spare.


> For the polymer based solution, i have tested it.
> Working with fresh solution is ok, but for now, 
> i have used chemistry aging issues. Neverless, the cost is 1-2 Euro
> each operation (Eurocard size) or multiple of it, and for home use,
> it�s really attractive. 

Again i misunderstood, seems we are both non English and are lost in the
translations. What polymer based chemistry? Both i mention have water
soluble polymers. One is palladium based (palladium - polyvinyl
pyrrolidone nano particles) that bungard sells and the other (truly
German) is polythiophene polymer based, and i mention a test of just
polyvinyl pyrrolidone as activation, it as low conductivity but could
work if it bonds to the permanganate conditioned resin. Did you mix any
plating chemistry yourself? 
I have experience with the bungard package, both chemistry and machine,
regardless human error is very stable along the time (chemistry not the
machine, bungard machines are crap). 


> Vacuum distillation. The only cheap/right way to do it.

Since i have plenty of sun here I thought using the sun to eliminate my
small run washing and rinse water. Never thought in vacuum... but will
be needed a high pressure pump and it will 'drink' lots of water.

> I have speaked a lot with water waste threadment companys, that
> have experience in pcb production. I have the reactivating procedure
> for the water threadment resin that bungard sell, but all concord,
> that the vacuum distillation method is the
> best/cheapest. In addition, the resulting concentrate liquid could
> be added to the chemistry, and the water reused. 

The water treatment next to the bungard plating machine i used was
simply a deposition tank, the 3 resin ion exchange filters, the nano
size filter, and the pH controler/injector tank. But not from bungard.
But I think their machine can use resin ion exchange as pellets. Resin
ion exchange filters aren't cheap.

> As example, at 25mH, the Water boils at 25 degree.

Units!! 25 mmHg and 25 degree Celsius right? I checked at one
temp/pressure table. As i said 0.03bar seems to need a powerfull pump
and it will 'drink' lots of water. But is a fast cheap solution! I
wonder if a refrigerator motor can do vacuum?!

Very thanks for reply.

>  
> My working point is 30 degree, with 20-25 degree cooling (water) coil,
> without using external compressor or peltier modules.
> It�s really simple building such a system.

>