Homebrew PCBs

Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?

Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

Parag

       
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On 9/2/07, Mr Crazy <crazymr420@...> wrote:
> Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?
>
> Which is the best for Toner Transfer?
>
> Parag
>
>


I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for TT (i consider them one
and the same BTW). Some people have said it works, but most people
seem to prefer soaking the paper to dissolve it.

ST

> > Mr Crazy wrote:
> > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy
> > and Acetate Films are the same or all are
> > different?
> >
> > Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

> ST wrote:
> I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for
> TT (i consider them one and the same BTW).
> Some people have said it works, but most people
> seem to prefer soaking the paper to dissolve it.

When I used to do TT I used OHP transperancies
and found there was as much variation from brand
to brand as people find with different paper
stocks.

I agree with ST that the three names above seem
to be used interchangeably (even if there may be
some technical difference I don't know of)

Hi,

I was asking for it as I am not getting good results with them for TT. What is the other reliable and reasonable method can be used for this? Photoresist film? 

Parag

Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:                               > > Mr Crazy wrote:
 > > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy
 > > and Acetate Films are the same or all are
 > > different?
 > >
 > > Which is the best for Toner Transfer?
 
 > ST wrote:
 > I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for
 > TT (i consider them one and the same BTW).
 > Some people have said it works, but most people
 > seem to prefer soaking the paper to dissolve it.
 
 When I used to do TT I used OHP transperancies
 and found there was as much variation from brand
 to brand as people find with different paper
 stocks.
 
 I agree with ST that the three names above seem
 to be used interchangeably (even if there may be
 some technical difference I don't know of)
 
 
     
                               

       
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 11:41 pm ((PDT)) Sat Sep 1, 2007, in Digest 2273 Mr Crazy wrote:
>Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy

'transperancy' is presumably a mis-spelling of 'transparency'

'OHP Film' and 'transparency film' are probably synonymous
in this context, though 'transparency film' has a quite different
meaning in the context of silver-emulsion photography.

>and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?

'acetate film' is a subset of OHP film and is likely to be
unsuitable for toner transfer (TT) because it is likely to melt
in the laser printer fuser and occasion an expensive repair.

>Which is the best for Toner Transfer?

None of these terms is an adequate specification for TT.

You need a film which is safe against laser fuser temperature,
so you need either a laser transparency film or a laser-safe
inkjet transparency film.

If, indeed, you need a _transparency_ film for TT at all,
since the purpose is not projection of the image but
mechanical transfer of the toner medium.

Note that many people are using inkjet printer _paper_.

The reason for this is that the structure of some papers includes
a layer which separates in water, allowing the paper to be peeled
from the toner image. In others, the backing paper disintegrates
on soaking and can be removed with mechanical encouragement.

Some magazine and catalogue paper is coated and separates
in water so this provides a very cheap source which for many
people gives satisfactory results, though you will have to
experiment until you find ones which work for you.

If you look in the group archives you will find plenty of discussion
on these topics.


Regards, LenW

At 7:26 am ((PDT)) Sun Sep 2, 2007, in Digest 2274 Stefan Trethan wrote:
>On 9/2/07, Mr Crazy <crazymr420@...> wrote:
> > Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films
> > are the same or all are different?[snip]
>
>I'm not sure if any of the above is ideal for TT (i consider them one
>and the same BTW).

Some years ago, at the college where I then taught computing, so
did some of the newly (but partially) computer-literate teaching staff.

As they began to word-process their classroom presentations and
sought to emulate more knowledgeable staff who were printing direct
to OHP slides or photocopying printed copy**, they discovered
the hard way that the _acetate_ film on which they had been used to
hand-draw was inadequate.

The least-bad outcome was that the sheet cockled in the printer
or photocopier and the result was probably unusable.

The worst outcome was that the sheet never emerged - it had
wrapped itself into a heat sealed tube around one of the fuser
rollers and the printer or copier would be out of action until
a technician could find the time to dismantle it.

[** We found that a denser projection image could be obtained
by photocopying paper printouts than by laser printing directly.
The laser printers of the time couldn't transfer as much toner to
plastic film as they could to paper, while the copiers had no
problem making a dense copy onto film.]

Later, we had another (but less disastrous) learning experience
when new-model fuser temperatures went up and some
photocopier transparency film proved insufficiently heat resistant
and was likely to distort during printing. ISTR that some types
of film had a temporary paper backing sheet which made them
behave better than un-backed ones - and there was a warning
on the pack not to remove the backing before printing.

'Acetate' is an old term for old material which may still be available.
Don't specify it and don't try to put it through a laser printer.


Regards, LenW

Hi Len,

Thanks for the answer, no wonder I was not getting the results. I will try with the methods you suggested,  laser transparency film, inkjet paper, mag paper.

The last time I tried with the transparency, image really became skewed at one end. Drawing was in perfect rectangle, but printout was not, I think it was because of transparency not being Laser transparency. 

regards,
Parag

Len Warner <novost@...> wrote:                               At 11:41 pm ((PDT)) Sat Sep 1, 2007, in Digest 2273 Mr Crazy wrote:
 >Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy
 
 'transperancy' is presumably a mis-spelling of 'transparency'
 
 'OHP Film' and 'transparency film' are probably synonymous
 in this context, though 'transparency film' has a quite different
 meaning in the context of silver-emulsion photography.
 
 >and Acetate Films are the same or all are different?
 
 'acetate film' is a subset of OHP film and is likely to be
 unsuitable for toner transfer (TT) because it is likely to melt
 in the laser printer fuser and occasion an expensive repair.
 
 >Which is the best for Toner Transfer?
 
 None of these terms is an adequate specification for TT.
 
 You need a film which is safe against laser fuser temperature,
 so you need either a laser transparency film or a laser-safe
 inkjet transparency film.
 
 If, indeed, you need a _transparency_ film for TT at all,
 since the purpose is not projection of the image but
 mechanical transfer of the toner medium.
 
 Note that many people are using inkjet printer _paper_.
 
 The reason for this is that the structure of some papers includes
 a layer which separates in water, allowing the paper to be peeled
 from the toner image. In others, the backing paper disintegrates
 on soaking and can be removed with mechanical encouragement.
 
 Some magazine and catalogue paper is coated and separates
 in water so this provides a very cheap source which for many
 people gives satisfactory results, though you will have to
 experiment until you find ones which work for you.
 
 If you look in the group archives you will find plenty of discussion
 on these topics.
 
 Regards, LenW 
 
 
     
                               

       
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Len Warner wrote:
> <SNIP>
> If, indeed, you need a _transparency_ film
> for TT at all, since the purpose is not
> projection of the image but mechanical
> transfer of the toner medium.
> 
> Note that many people are using inkjet
> printer _paper_.
> 

My reasons for using the OHP trannys many
moons ago was because the toner transfer
worked quite well and there was no paper
fuzz that I got when experimenting with
papers.

These days with a plethora of clay coat
type inkjet papers around there may be no
advantage to the OHPs.  I have just bought
some homebrand ink jet paper to give a
try to see how it compares.

I have been reading the posts as they come across my email for a few
weeks now hoping to get more insight on this process. I have
accomplished TT PCBs with mediocre results in the past using online
guides from across the internet. I believe my biggest hindrance has been
using a paper poorly suited. As I read here there seem to be lots of
"what not to dos, but I haven't gotten a very concise concept of what
does work consistently well and is readily available today. What paper
or transparency can I go out and purchase today at Wal-Mart, CompUSA,
Office Max/Office Depot (No Staples here) or similar store common in
south-eastern US? I get good clear detailed lines on my print, just bad
transfers, mostly no transferring completely, resulting in pitted toner
images transferred to my CC board. 

 

Hope you guys can suggest some commonly available local sources for good
TT paper or transparency.

 

Thanks.

tdkask



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

save your few dollars- use glossy magazine paper- don't worry if it is
printed upon already. This material works great, disolves great-
overall great results! found out the hard way./jd


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas D. Kask" <tdkask@...> wrote:

>
> I have been reading the posts as they come across my email for a few
> weeks now hoping to get more insight on this process. I have
> accomplished TT PCBs with mediocre results in the past using online
> guides from across the internet. I believe my biggest hindrance has been
> using a paper poorly suited. As I read here there seem to be lots of
> "what not to dos, but I haven't gotten a very concise concept of what
> does work consistently well and is readily available today. What paper
> or transparency can I go out and purchase today at Wal-Mart, CompUSA,
> Office Max/Office Depot (No Staples here) or similar store common in
> south-eastern US? I get good clear detailed lines on my print, just bad
> transfers, mostly no transferring completely, resulting in pitted toner
> images transferred to my CC board. 
> 
>  
> 
> Hope you guys can suggest some commonly available local sources for good
> TT paper or transparency.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> tdkask
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I use the Pulsar paper with very good results.  The other trick I've
read about but not yet tried is to use plain gelatin, diluted 4:1, to
coat your own paper.

The key is that whatever paper you use should have a coating that is
(1) heat resistant but (2) water soluble.  Some "glossy" papers have a
clay coating on them, for example.

DO humidify your paper.  A few minutes in a closed box with a
container of water (don't get the paper wet) softens the fibers so
they lay flat and take a more even layer of toner.

DO use sufficient heat, else the toner won't stick well.

DO let the paper soak fully.  Pulsar paper just floats away when it's
done, resist the urge to help it along.

DO clean the board well, and dry fully.  Keep your grubby fingers off
the copper!  And the paper!  And the toner!

timbomcnuckle wrote:
> save your few dollars- use glossy magazine paper- don't worry if it is
> printed upon already. This material works great, disolves great-
> overall great results! found out the hard way./jd
>
>   
Magazine paper is very thin ... does it have to be put on a "carrier 
sheet" or will my HP 1021 handle it ok ??? and dose the ink load have an 
effect ie sparse print vs dark picture ...
Jim

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas D. Kask" <tdkask@...> wrote:
>   
>> I have been reading the posts as they come across my email for a few
>> weeks now hoping to get more insight on this process. I have
>> accomplished TT PCBs with mediocre results in the past using online
>> guides from across the internet. I believe my biggest hindrance has been
>> using a paper poorly suited. As I read here there seem to be lots of
>> "what not to dos, but I haven't gotten a very concise concept of what
>> does work consistently well and is readily available today. What paper
>> or transparency can I go out and purchase today at Wal-Mart, CompUSA,
>> Office Max/Office Depot (No Staples here) or similar store common in
>> south-eastern US? I get good clear detailed lines on my print, just bad
>> transfers, mostly no transferring completely, resulting in pitted toner
>> images transferred to my CC board. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> Hope you guys can suggest some commonly available local sources for good
>> TT paper or transparency.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> tdkask
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...> writes:
> Magazine paper is very thin ... does it have to be put on a "carrier
> sheet" or will my HP 1021 handle it ok ???

I always cut out a section of paper "just big enough" and tape it to
plain copy paper when I print, it works just fine.  No reason why you
couldn't do it with magazine paper.  What I do is print on the plain
paper first, so I know where the image is going to show up, then tape
the TT paper over that image.  I haven't missed the TT paper yet :-)

On Monday 03 September 2007 22:18, DJ Delorie wrote:
> Jim Hutchinson <jhutch17@...> writes:
> > Magazine paper is very thin ... does it have to be put on a "carrier
> > sheet" or will my HP 1021 handle it ok ???
>
> I always cut out a section of paper "just big enough" and tape it to
> plain copy paper when I print, it works just fine.  No reason why you
> couldn't do it with magazine paper.  What I do is print on the plain
> paper first, so I know where the image is going to show up, then tape
> the TT paper over that image.  I haven't missed the TT paper yet :-)
>
>
> 
What do you use for tape? Having it come off could be messy.
-- 
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

keith <kabowers@...> writes:
> What do you use for tape? Having it come off could be messy.

Plain old cellophane (scotch) tape.  I don't try to peel it off the TT
paper; peel it off the plain backing paper, then cut it off the TT
paper.  Or I put the whole thing in a paper cutter and just cut the
tape off the TT paper; the carrier get cut too but who cares?  Or cut
the TT paper off the backing with scissors.

Note: you ONLY tape the LEADING edge of the TT paper; not the corners,
and not all the way around!  The "leading" edge is the one that enters
the printer first.

When done right, you can lift the TT paper up and easily cut the tape
off without having to remove the tape from the carrier.

Hi Parag,

I can't answer your questions about the differences, but can tell you 
what did and didn't work for me.

I've had good success with HP Inkjet transparencies.  They have 
several grades; I can give the exact part number if you're 
interested.  I'm using a Lexmark Optra E+ printer with toner refills; 
I haven't found toner to be a significant variable.  I've used the OEM 
toner and any brand of refill and haven't noticed a difference.

Nothing else worked very well.  Some CompUSA inkjet transparencies 
looked like they'd do well (better toner coverage), but I couldn't get 
a good transfer.  May need to work on ironing time.  Also tried laser 
transparencies and transparencies used for color wax printers (Phaser 
type).  Nothing worked as well as the HP inkjet transparencies.

With all inkjet transparencies, I get virtually 100% of the toner 
transferred.  Laser transparencies appear to have a greater affinity 
for toner; but I was doing a "hot" remove back then.  With inkjet, I 
do a "cool" remove.

Since I'm not using the laminator technique, I find that the 
transparencies allow me to apply heat/pressure where needed.  You need 
to cover the transparency with a paper towel to protect the carrier 
from melting.  This will also help for double sided applications 
because you can see through the carrier to line things up.  To date, 
the only double sided boards I've done were for card edge connectors 
and I did the layout so that I only needed the fingers to line up -- 
basically 2 single sided layouts on the same board.

The paper towel will take a pass or two to shed excess fibers; then 
sticking to the transparency will lessen.

I typically have some pin holes, but nothing that's more than cosmetic 
and I've never noticed any etching all the way through the copper.  If 
you remove all of the toner (I used to leave it to prevent oxidation), 
you could scrub the copper to remove any oxidized spots.  Copper fills 
are more problematic, but they can be touched up with an etch resist 
(I use fine point black Sharpies, ultra-fine and industrial chisel 
tips don't work).  But that's purely cosmetic.  If you're worried 
about conductors being compromised by the pitting, you could make them 
wider or tin the traces with solder.  I tried using a solder pot for 
tinning, but temperature appears to be important and I need to perfect 
my technique.  I've only had traces from an inkjet transparency 
transfer that were "bad" enough for me to want to go over it with a 
Sharpie once; I was too lazy to clean the board and try again.  That 
board was 100mmX160mm (posted with my photos).

An upside to my inkjet transparency method is that once ironing is 
done and the board has cooled to the touch, I'm almost ready to etch.  
No soaking/rubbing or dealing with paper fibers.

I use a toothbrush scrub with some liquid soap to remove any traces of 
the coating from the transparencies.  Then I do any touch-up before 
etching.

One last thing.  Since the carrier is transparent, I can see how much 
traces are spreading.  I can also see how small the pad/via holes are 
getting.  I like to have them almost closed to use as a pilot hole for 
drilling.  I choose the smallest hole diameter for all holes.  For 
library components, I put a via on them (there are times when Eagle 
complains).  I usually end up cutting and pasting the metal/vias to a 
different board, replacing library pads with vias, and arraying the 
pattern to fill an 8.5x11 sheet for printing.

I have some pictures posted for an inkjet transfer.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mr Crazy <crazymr420@...> wrote:
>
> Does any one know if OHP film, Transperancy and Acetate Films are 
the same or all are different?

> 
> Which is the best for Toner Transfer?
> 
> Parag