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Circuit Cellar article

2007-04-25 by Victor Fraenckel

Here is an interesting article in the May issue of Circuit Cellar
magazine. This is the article's banner:

"Circuit Board Plotting 101. Curt describes how to draw PCB traces onto
copper-clad with a
Hewlett-Packard 7440A ColorPro pen plotter and a Sharpie Ultra Fine
Point permanent
marker."

Author did some nifty stuff. See the pics

Vic
--

*____________________________________________________________________________________________*

*Victor Fraenckel
KC2GUI
victorf ATSIGN windreader DOT com**

*

Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-04-26 by crankorgan

Just another ripped from the Internet article. Magazines run six
months to a year behind.

One of the original guys.

http://www.qsl.net/ve2emm/pcb/pcbe.html

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Victor Fraenckel <victorf@...>
wrote:

>
> Here is an interesting article in the May issue of Circuit Cellar
> magazine. This is the article's banner:
>
> "Circuit Board Plotting 101. Curt describes how to draw PCB traces onto
> copper-clad with a
> Hewlett-Packard 7440A ColorPro pen plotter and a Sharpie Ultra Fine
> Point permanent
> marker."
>
> Author did some nifty stuff. See the pics
>
> Vic
> --
>
>

*____________________________________________________________________________________________*

>
> *Victor Fraenckel
> KC2GUI
> victorf ATSIGN windreader DOT com**
>
> *
>

Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-04-26 by crankorgan

http://www.willcoxonline.com/PCBplotting/main.html

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Just another ripped from the Internet article. Magazines run six
> months to a year behind.
>
> One of the original guys.
>
> http://www.qsl.net/ve2emm/pcb/pcbe.html
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Victor Fraenckel <victorf@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Here is an interesting article in the May issue of Circuit Cellar
> > magazine. This is the article's banner:
> >
> > "Circuit Board Plotting 101. Curt describes how to draw PCB traces
onto
> > copper-clad with a
> > Hewlett-Packard 7440A ColorPro pen plotter and a Sharpie Ultra Fine
> > Point permanent
> > marker."
> >
> > Author did some nifty stuff. See the pics
> >
> > Vic
> > --
> >
> >
>
*____________________________________________________________________________________________*
> >
> > *Victor Fraenckel
> > KC2GUI
> > victorf ATSIGN windreader DOT com**
> >
> > *
> >
>

Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-04-27 by martin_schoenegg

> http://www.willcoxonline.com/PCBplotting/main.html
> > http://www.qsl.net/ve2emm/pcb/pcbe.html
> > > "Circuit Board Plotting 101. Curt describes how to draw PCB

Oh guys. I did this 15 years before :-)
But the process isn't stable. Very often the tip smears as it reaches
earlier drawn traces or pads (T-connections) or thicker traces that
needs to be drawn with parallel lines. After tryinig a lot different
pens (Staedler I used too) and several costy steel-tips with lots of
different inks I switched back to photoprocess. May be my plotter is
too fast.
By the way: The best "ink" I used was colophonium in isopropyl
alcohol. It is a good and cheal resist and you don't have to remove
it, just solder. And if you draw the lines with a tinned solder iron
the board is quickly tinned and stable for years. there is only one
small disadvantage with colophonium alcohol ink: it is very
transparent. Therefor i mix one or two drops of staedler refill ink.
You may try this... Nowadays I prefer toner transfer.
Later on I want to try to print with a modded Lexmark Optra R direct
to copper (by removing the fixer unit) and fix it in the oven. I'm
sure it will work, but I don't have the time for such playing now.
next year perhaps :-(

May be someone trys this earlier

Martin

Lexmark Optra R or L is a 1200dpi printer that can print in a very
even tray and is capable to give lot toner for very dark prints.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-04-28 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:30:28 +0200, martin_schoenegg
<Martin.Schoenegg@...> wrote:

>
> Oh guys. I did this 15 years before :-)
> But the process isn't stable. Very often the tip smears as it reaches
> earlier drawn traces or pads (T-connections) or thicker traces that
> needs to be drawn with parallel lines. After tryinig a lot different
> pens (Staedler I used too) and several costy steel-tips with lots of
> different inks I switched back to photoprocess. May be my plotter is
> too fast.

Tried the same, same results, same box of useless but expensive steel and
carbide tipped pens.

> By the way: The best "ink" I used was colophonium in isopropyl
> alcohol. It is a good and cheal resist and you don't have to remove
> it, just solder. And if you draw the lines with a tinned solder iron
> the board is quickly tinned and stable for years. there is only one
> small disadvantage with colophonium alcohol ink: it is very
> transparent. Therefor i mix one or two drops of staedler refill ink.
> You may try this... Nowadays I prefer toner transfer.

Now you are starting to scare me. I also tried colophony resin, also with
some staedtler refill ink.
You could've told me, you know, saved me the trouble and all... ;-)

The laser will most likely not work because only about 50% of toner is
transferred without the static pickup, i doubt the R produces enough toner
so that 50% still resists.
One thing that could work is a silicone roller below the drum as a
transfer roller, which picks up the toner (with static charge) and
transfers it to a board running by below (which can be heated and fuse the
toner in the same step because the roller can be heat-proof silicone. Not
my idea either that one.

ST

Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-04-29 by martin_schoenegg

Hi Stefan,

> Now you are starting to scare me. I also tried colophony resin,

also with

> some staedtler refill ink.
> You could've told me, you know, saved me the trouble and all... ;-)

I'd have done it if You'd have asked me before ;-)

> The laser will most likely not work because only about 50% of toner

> transferred without the static pickup, i doubt the R produces

enough toner

> so that 50% still resists.

AFAIR there where here a few members that did some tests to print
direct toner to copper. The most critical path herein I see is the
process behind. The toner doesn't be fixed enough because the heating
is too low for the metal. In laser printers it is designed to heat
paper fast enough anf preferabely fast! So I would remove all the
devices that may touch the fresh printed copper and fix the toner in
an oven. But I can't try out this now, next year, perhaps :-(

Martin

> One thing that could work is a silicone roller below the drum as a
> transfer roller, which picks up the toner (with static charge) and
> transfers it to a board running by below (which can be heated and

fuse the

> toner in the same step because the roller can be heat-proof

silicone. Not

> my idea either that one.
>
> ST
>

Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-05 by Steve

Longer behind than that! I started Homebrew_PCBs in late 2001, and the
plotter pen thing was already old then. But to be fair, an article
like that can find someone who wouldn't even know to search for it on
the internet.

I think it was discussions about plotter pens drawing etch resist that
spurred the scratch 'n etch idea. Wasn't that your idea, John?

BTW, links:
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/links/Plotter_method_001007656445/>

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Just another ripped from the Internet article. Magazines run six
> months to a year behind.
>
> One of the original guys.
>
> http://www.qsl.net/ve2emm/pcb/pcbe.html
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Victor Fraenckel <victorf@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Here is an interesting article in the May issue of Circuit Cellar
> > magazine. This is the article's banner:
> >
> > "Circuit Board Plotting 101. Curt describes how to draw PCB traces
onto
> > copper-clad with a
> > Hewlett-Packard 7440A ColorPro pen plotter and a Sharpie Ultra Fine
> > Point permanent
> > marker."
> >

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-06 by Trevor Matthews

I was using a plotter for direct draw to PCB for many years with limited
success using a roland DXY-800 flat bed plotter, staedler ink and
carbide tipped pens. To get decent traces, I had to half the crystal
frequency (to half the pen speed) as well as use thin short tracks and
needed to write a program which after a pre-determine period of pen down
time inserted a series on pen-up, move a small amount, pen down, move a
small amout repeats to shake the pen and attempt to reflow the ink.
(The pen shaking created a back stich affect if any of you have sewing
experience)
Still had problems with ink flow and cleaning the pens after use, so
eventually gave up. Especially once I needed to go to double sided
patterns - now I use photoresist for nearly all my PCBs.

Hope this helps

Trev

Steve wrote:

> Longer behind than that! I started Homebrew_PCBs in late 2001, and the
> plotter pen thing was already old then. But to be fair, an article
> like that can find someone who wouldn't even know to search for it on
> the internet.
>
> I think it was discussions about plotter pens drawing etch resist that
> spurred the scratch 'n etch idea. Wasn't that your idea, John?
>
> BTW, links:
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/links/Plotter_method_001007656445/
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/links/Plotter_method_001007656445/>>
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
> >
> > Just another ripped from the Internet article. Magazines run six
> > months to a year behind.
> >
> > One of the original guys.
> >
> > http://www.qsl.net/ve2emm/pcb/pcbe.html
> <http://www.qsl.net/ve2emm/pcb/pcbe.html>
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Victor Fraenckel <victorf@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Here is an interesting article in the May issue of Circuit Cellar
> > > magazine. This is the article's banner:
> > >
> > > "Circuit Board Plotting 101. Curt describes how to draw PCB traces
> onto
> > > copper-clad with a
> > > Hewlett-Packard 7440A ColorPro pen plotter and a Sharpie Ultra Fine
> > > Point permanent
> > > marker."
> > >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-06 by Lez

I posted on here about a super pen, the paint pen from uni(ball) px203 in
white, resisted an hour of FECL etching after which I got bored.....

I'm using it in a calcomp plotter and a HP, but tip is a bit wide so no
going between pads etc.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-07 by lcdpublishing

I will be (within a few weeks) testing out plotting / etching with
Staedtler pens. I made up a pen holder for my CNC machine and am
working out a few other details for direct import of the Gerber data.
Once complete, I will be trying this process out first hand.

The Super Fine pens seem to plot about a .015" wide trace which
severly restricts layouts (relative to what I have been doing so far).

I went for the Staedtler pens based on SO MANY recomendations here
from SO MANY people as to how well it holds up to etching. Aside from
putting the ink on the copper, has anyone had to do any other special
treatments (heating, drying, etc.) before performing the etching
process?

Thanks

Chris

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-09 by Trevor Matthews

No treatment was required for me, I used Ammonium Persuphate heated to
about 80C with no trouble with undercutting or track breaks on areas
where the ink was thickly placed (in my plotting experience the ink
didn't run very well thru the pen over time of the plot)

Trev

lcdpublishing wrote:

> I will be (within a few weeks) testing out plotting / etching with
> Staedtler pens. I made up a pen holder for my CNC machine and am
> working out a few other details for direct import of the Gerber data.
> Once complete, I will be trying this process out first hand.
>
> The Super Fine pens seem to plot about a .015" wide trace which
> severly restricts layouts (relative to what I have been doing so far).
>
> I went for the Staedtler pens based on SO MANY recomendations here
> from SO MANY people as to how well it holds up to etching. Aside from
> putting the ink on the copper, has anyone had to do any other special
> treatments (heating, drying, etc.) before performing the etching
> process?
>
> Thanks
>
> Chris
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-09 by Lez

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The Super Fine pens seem to plot about a .015" wide trace which
> > severly restricts layouts (relative to what I have been doing so far).
> >
> > I went for the Staedtler pens based on SO MANY recomendations here
> > from SO MANY people as to how well it holds up to etching. Aside from
> > putting the ink on the copper, has anyone had to do any other special
> > treatments (heating, drying, etc.) before performing the etching
> > process?
> >

The best hold up to etch I have found is the uniball paint pen, I have
only tried the px203 white, its tip is fine but thats not fine by our
standards, but for standard DIP layouts its a superb pen.

I'm still trying to find a friendly driver for dip trace, I currenty
export it as BMP, then edge detect it, then load that into a vinyl
cutting package, takes longer than designing the boards lol

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-10 by Leon

----- Original Message -----
From: "K Wolf" <kevinmwolf@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

> Has anyone found the staedler (or other store-bought pens) able to
> withstand
> the muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide etchant solution? I tried both the
> sharpie "paint pens" with fair results, and sharpie permanents. Both seem
> to
> immediately dissolve in the solution.

They work OK with ferric chloride.

Leon

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-10 by K Wolf

Has anyone found the staedler (or other store-bought pens) able to withstand
the muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide etchant solution? I tried both the
sharpie "paint pens" with fair results, and sharpie permanents. Both seem to
immediately dissolve in the solution.

Good luck,

Kevin Wolf

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Lez
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:41 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The Super Fine pens seem to plot about a .015" wide trace which
> > severly restricts layouts (relative to what I have been doing so far).
> >
> > I went for the Staedtler pens based on SO MANY recomendations here
> > from SO MANY people as to how well it holds up to etching. Aside from
> > putting the ink on the copper, has anyone had to do any other special
> > treatments (heating, drying, etc.) before performing the etching
> > process?
> >

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-10 by Lez

I think the uniball px203 is resistant to everything.

But I have not tried muriatric stuff, cant get it where I am, but as it
withstands ferric overnight, I think it has a chance.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-10 by Stefan Trethan

On Thu, 10 May 2007 10:49:07 +0200, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

>
>> Has anyone found the staedler (or other store-bought pens) able to
>> withstand
>> the muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide etchant solution? I tried both
>> the
>> sharpie "paint pens" with fair results, and sharpie permanents. Both
>> seem
>> to
>> immediately dissolve in the solution.

> They work OK with ferric chloride.
> Leon

They work OK with hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide etchant / CuCl.

Pen should be reasonably "fresh" (get the refiller too).

ST

Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-10 by Bob_xyz

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> I think the uniball px203 is resistant to everything.
>
> But I have not tried muriatric stuff, cant get it where I am, but
>as it
> withstands ferric overnight, I think it has a chance.
>

For muriatic acid: I don't know where you're located but you might
want to check at a swimming pool supply or home supply store for
muriatic acid. It's frequently used for pool maintenance and concrete
cleaning. It's usually available in a 30% or so concentration in
gallon containers.

For hydrogen peroxide: A professional beauty supply store should
carry the 12% variety which is labeled 'Volume 40'. That's about the
strongest that I've found.

You may need to find someone with a beautician's license (or convince
them that you're not going to bleach anyone's hair). The license
requirement can vary from one store to another.

Regards, Bob

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Circuit Cellar article

2007-05-11 by Dale Chatham

I've purchased muriatic acid at home depot and lowe's, but that's Texas.

As for H2O2:

http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=9935&wvaid=IN&term=nextag
<http://www.webvitamins.com/product.aspx?id=9935&wvaid=IN&term=nextag>

Web vitamins, go figure.

Bob_xyz wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
>> I think the uniball px203 is resistant to everything.
>>
>> But I have not tried muriatric stuff, cant get it where I am, but
>> as it
>> withstands ferric overnight, I think it has a chance.
>>
>>
>
> For muriatic acid: I don't know where you're located but you might
> want to check at a swimming pool supply or home supply store for
> muriatic acid. It's frequently used for pool maintenance and concrete
> cleaning. It's usually available in a 30% or so concentration in
> gallon containers.
>
> For hydrogen peroxide: A professional beauty supply store should
> carry the 12% variety which is labeled 'Volume 40'. That's about the
> strongest that I've found.
>
> You may need to find someone with a beautician's license (or convince
> them that you're not going to bleach anyone's hair). The license
> requirement can vary from one store to another.
>
>
> Regards, Bob
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>