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Etching with HCl and H202

Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-25 by Jamie Lyon

Hi all,

I'm currently etching with Ammonium Persulfate, but having to heat it
up isn't very easy, so I want to give etching with hydrochloric acid +
hydrogen peroxide a go.

I've managed to get hold of the acid in the form of brick cleaner, it
doesn't specify the percentage, but I'm assuming it's somewhere around
30%, which seems to be standard.

The hydrogen peroxide however I had quite an issue getting hold of
(I'm in the UK), I've managed to get some medical grade (3%) stuff
from a local supermarket, however it mentions other extra contents on
the label, phosphoric acid & phenacetin. I'm not sure what the volume
of those additives are, as it doesn't mention it on the label. Would
they possibly cause an issue? I don't want it blowing up in my face
when I mix it :)

Finally, I've seen several mixes on the net -- with the medical grade
peroxide, does 2:1 peroxide:acid sound about right?

Many thanks,
Jamie

Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-25 by sam_jfs

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Lyon" <aeonflame@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm currently etching with Ammonium Persulfate, but having to heat it
> up isn't very easy, so I want to give etching with hydrochloric acid +
> hydrogen peroxide a go.
> 
> I've managed to get hold of the acid in the form of brick cleaner, it
> doesn't specify the percentage, but I'm assuming it's somewhere around
> 30%, which seems to be standard.
> 
> The hydrogen peroxide however I had quite an issue getting hold of
> (I'm in the UK), I've managed to get some medical grade (3%) stuff
> from a local supermarket, however it mentions other extra contents on
> the label, phosphoric acid & phenacetin. I'm not sure what the volume
> of those additives are, as it doesn't mention it on the label. Would
> they possibly cause an issue? I don't want it blowing up in my face
> when I mix it :)
> 
> Finally, I've seen several mixes on the net -- with the medical grade
> peroxide, does 2:1 peroxide:acid sound about right?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Jamie
>

I use Muriatic acid and H2O2 ( medical grade 3% too ) with good
results. The only problem is, after some days i can´t really etch with
it, i must throw it away and make a new one, i don´t know why, i don´t
understand chemistry ...
I use 3:1 ( 3 of H2O2 and 1 of Muriatic acid ), it´s quite fast, about
5 to 10 minutes at room temperature (+/- 20ºC ).

Sam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-25 by Stefan Trethan

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:30:24 +0200, sam_jfs <Samuel_joao@...>  
wrote:

> I use Muriatic acid and H2O2 ( medical grade 3% too ) with good
> results. The only problem is, after some days i can�t really etch with
> it, i must throw it away and make a new one, i don�t know why, i don�t
> understand chemistry ...


The reason is that the H2O2 is not stable in the etchant, it dissipates  
into the air.
You can rejuvenate the etchant with fresh H2O2, but the problem with the  
3% stuff is you would add too much water.
If you can get 25 or 30% H2O2 you can use the same etchant forever.

ST

Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-26 by mycroft2152

I use both FeCl3 and Acid/H202 etchant. Each has its good points as 
well as its hazards. In either case, protective safety equipment must 
be used.

FeCl3 is a "milder" and "safer" etchant to handle. Yes, it does stain 
just about everything, but there is usually very little serious 
damage. On the other hand, Muriatic acid / H202 is extremely damaging 
to just about everything, including skin.

We all tend to become a little too familiar with the process and get 
sloppy. I have had my share of stains and burns too. I definitely 
prefer the FeCl3 stain.

When I do an acid etch, I wear goggles and rubber gloves. I have the 
etchant tank in a second containment tray. I also have a half kilo of 
baking soda handy as well as running water. After finishing, I dust 
everything with baking soda and keep adding baking soda to any spots 
that fizz. Then carefully wash everything down.

The acid etching process does generate heat and bubbles. There can be 
a mist of etchant that is almost invisible. You will notice the 
effects, if not immediately, but in a very short period of time. Acid 
burns cause intense pain and heal very slowly. Fabric distegrates.

Do not underestimate the danger. Having a little "experience with 
acds and bases" in high school, does not adequately prepare you for 
proper use.

Be safe!

Myc
Industrial Chemist for 30 years


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:30:24 +0200, sam_jfs <Samuel_joao@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> > I use Muriatic acid and H2O2 ( medical grade 3% too ) with good
> > results. The only problem is, after some days i can´t really 
etch with
> > it, i must throw it away and make a new one, i don´t know why, i 
don´t
> > understand chemistry ...
> 
> 
> The reason is that the H2O2 is not stable in the etchant, it 
dissipates  
> into the air.
> You can rejuvenate the etchant with fresh H2O2, but the problem 
with the  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 3% stuff is you would add too much water.
> If you can get 25 or 30% H2O2 you can use the same etchant forever.
> 
> ST
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-26 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:13:25 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152y@...>  
wrote:

>
> The acid etching process does generate heat and bubbles. There can be
> a mist of etchant that is almost invisible. You will notice the
> effects, if not immediately, but in a very short period of time. Acid
> burns cause intense pain and heal very slowly. Fabric distegrates.


Those are generally symptoms of too much acid or H2O2 or both. It is a bit  
tricky, maybe impossible, to avoid bubbles completely when working with  
fresh HCl H2O2 etchants, but an excessive amount should be avoided. I have  
once timed a board at eleven seconds, so i know what it means to use too  
much (it was a tiny board and tiny container), do NOT try this with large  
amounts. Anyway, reducing concentrations should reduce bubbling, and stop  
the etchant heating too much (which will generate lotsa HCl fumes too). Of  
course it'll slow things down and you might even have to replace or  
replenish the etchant during the etch if you work with small amounts in a  
small container, on a freshly made per board basis.

If you can at all get H2O2 in concentrated form, or if you are prepared to  
go through the trouble of regeneration with air oxygen, it really pays to  
feed it up to a proper CuCl etchant. I have my etcher (with a lid, but not  
at all airtight), right next to the corner where i store round stock and  
rods and stuff, some of it steel, and notice no corrosion. The etchant  
does not produce any smell or fumes or bubbles, only during etching a  
slight smell can be noticed from the air pumped through (agitation). Also,  
CuCl only contains HCl in a relatively low concentration, so will not  
cause burns (at least if washed off soon). It will only need tending with  
additional HCl and H2O2 every few boards (depends on total volume) so the  
risk can be reduced and proper gear can be worn at those times.

Having used both, permanent CuCl is much more comfortable, but you need  
concentrated H2O2. Maybe electroplating regeneration would be an option  
for those who can't get H2O2 easily. Maybe O2 gas in bottles (welding)  
would work better than air, possibly using something like a downstream  
dissolver, possibly an option if someone already keeps a oxy/acetylene  
welder. Maybe it would even be reasonable to generate the oxygen by  
electrolysis of water, but then it is probably easier to use  
electroplating and feed the generated gas into a dissolver.

ST

Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-26 by derekhawkins

>I'm currently etching with Ammonium Persulfate, but having to heat 
>it up isn't very easy

Etching tanks like below (ET-10) do quite well on a small scale using 
an aquarium heater and air pump;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/62352752

Compact, cheap and easy to use.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Lyon" <aeonflame@...> 
wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-26 by YD

--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:13:25 +0200, mycroft2152
> <mycroft2152y@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > The acid etching process does generate heat and
> bubbles. There can be
> > a mist of etchant that is almost invisible. You
> will notice the
> > effects, if not immediately, but in a very short
> period of time. Acid
> > burns cause intense pain and heal very slowly.
> Fabric distegrates.
> 
> 
> Those are generally symptoms of too much acid or
> H2O2 or both. It is a bit  
> tricky, maybe impossible, to avoid bubbles
> completely when working with  
> fresh HCl H2O2 etchants, but an excessive amount
> should be avoided. I have  
> once timed a board at eleven seconds, so i know what
> it means to use too  
> much (it was a tiny board and tiny container), do
> NOT try this with large  
> amounts. Anyway, reducing concentrations should
> reduce bubbling, and stop  
> the etchant heating too much (which will generate
> lotsa HCl fumes too). Of  
> course it'll slow things down and you might even
> have to replace or  
> replenish the etchant during the etch if you work
> with small amounts in a  
> small container, on a freshly made per board basis.
> 
> If you can at all get H2O2 in concentrated form, or
> if you are prepared to  
> go through the trouble of regeneration with air
> oxygen, it really pays to  
> feed it up to a proper CuCl etchant. I have my
> etcher (with a lid, but not  
> at all airtight), right next to the corner where i
> store round stock and  
> rods and stuff, some of it steel, and notice no
> corrosion. The etchant  
> does not produce any smell or fumes or bubbles, only
> during etching a  
> slight smell can be noticed from the air pumped
> through (agitation). Also,  
> CuCl only contains HCl in a relatively low
> concentration, so will not  
> cause burns (at least if washed off soon). It will
> only need tending with  
> additional HCl and H2O2 every few boards (depends on
> total volume) so the  
> risk can be reduced and proper gear can be worn at
> those times.
> 
> Having used both, permanent CuCl is much more
> comfortable, but you need  
> concentrated H2O2. Maybe electroplating regeneration
> would be an option  
> for those who can't get H2O2 easily. Maybe O2 gas in
> bottles (welding)  
> would work better than air, possibly using something
> like a downstream  
> dissolver, possibly an option if someone already
> keeps a oxy/acetylene  
> welder. Maybe it would even be reasonable to
> generate the oxygen by  
> electrolysis of water, but then it is probably
> easier to use  
> electroplating and feed the generated gas into a
> dissolver.
> 
> ST
> 
> 

Has anyone ever tried passing the air through one of
those ozonizer tubes found in water ozonizers? I
figure that the O3 might speed up regeneration.

- YD.



 
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Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-03-28 by Jamie Lyon

Thanks for your help everyone. I tried it today. Unfortunately it
wasn't very successful  -- it took about 10 minutes to etch, slower
than the ammonium persulfate I usually use. Having to do it outside (I
don't really want to mess with acids of that strength indoors with
only a window for ventilation) meant it was much colder than room
temp... whether that was the reason or not for the slow etch, I'm not
sure.

Either way, I think I may take the advice of the person below and
obtain a small etching tank with a heater, probably safer for the
small volumes I do, and in actuality even heating up the etchant in a
bowl of hot water is probably less inconvenient than having to move
everything outside :)

I much appreciate all the advice, perhaps I'll try it again sometime
when the weather is warmer! :)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Etching tanks like below (ET-10) do quite well on a small scale using
> an aquarium heater and air pump;
>
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/62352752
>
> Compact, cheap and easy to use.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-04-16 by Dale J. Chatham

I'll guess that if you add more H2O2, it will work again.  With the 
impurities from the etching and the natural tendency of H2O2 to go to 
H2O and O2, I'd bet that's your problem.

sam_jfs wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Lyon" <aeonflame@...> wrote:
>   
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm currently etching with Ammonium Persulfate, but having to heat it
>> up isn't very easy, so I want to give etching with hydrochloric acid +
>> hydrogen peroxide a go.
>>
>> I've managed to get hold of the acid in the form of brick cleaner, it
>> doesn't specify the percentage, but I'm assuming it's somewhere around
>> 30%, which seems to be standard.
>>
>> The hydrogen peroxide however I had quite an issue getting hold of
>> (I'm in the UK), I've managed to get some medical grade (3%) stuff
>> from a local supermarket, however it mentions other extra contents on
>> the label, phosphoric acid & phenacetin. I'm not sure what the volume
>> of those additives are, as it doesn't mention it on the label. Would
>> they possibly cause an issue? I don't want it blowing up in my face
>> when I mix it :)
>>
>> Finally, I've seen several mixes on the net -- with the medical grade
>> peroxide, does 2:1 peroxide:acid sound about right?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Jamie
>>
>>     
>
> I use Muriatic acid and H2O2 ( medical grade 3% too ) with good
> results. The only problem is, after some days i can\ufffdt really etch with
> it, i must throw it away and make a new one, i don\ufffdt know why, i don\ufffdt
> understand chemistry ...
> I use 3:1 ( 3 of H2O2 and 1 of Muriatic acid ), it\ufffds quite fast, about
> 5 to 10 minutes at room temperature (+/- 20\ufffdC ).
>
> Sam
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-04-16 by Dale J. Chatham

One can get somewhat small aquarium water pumps that will do a better 
job of moving the etchang, you won't haveto wory about bubbles on the 
board keeping places from etching and the unhandy aerosols released by 
the bubbling.

derekhawkins wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>> I'm currently etching with Ammonium Persulfate, but having to heat 
>> it up isn't very easy
>>     
>
> Etching tanks like below (ET-10) do quite well on a small scale using 
> an aquarium heater and air pump;
>
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/62352752
>
> Compact, cheap and easy to use.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Lyon" <aeonflame@...> 
> wrote:
>

Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-04-16 by Bob_xyz

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sam_jfs" <Samuel_joao@...> wrote:
>
> I use Muriatic acid and H2O2 ( medical grade 3% too ) with good
> results. The only problem is, after some days i can´t really etch with
> it, i must throw it away and make a new one, i don´t know why, i don´t
> understand chemistry ...
> I use 3:1 ( 3 of H2O2 and 1 of Muriatic acid ), it´s quite fast, about
> 5 to 10 minutes at room temperature (+/- 20ºC ).
> 

You can find a lot of good information on making and regenerating CuCl 
etchant in the 'Links' section of the group.


Regards, Bob

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Etching with HCl and H202

2007-04-16 by Dale J. Chatham

And, though I'd never suggest anyone try it, FeCl3 makes a decent cure 
for poison ivy.

Of course, so does a brush and clorox, but I wouldn't suggest that one 
either.

:)

mycroft2152 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I use both FeCl3 and Acid/H202 etchant. Each has its good points as 
> well as its hazards. In either case, protective safety equipment must 
> be used.
>
> FeCl3 is a "milder" and "safer" etchant to handle. Yes, it does stain 
> just about everything, but there is usually very little serious 
> damage. On the other hand, Muriatic acid / H202 is extremely damaging 
> to just about everything, including skin.
>
> We all tend to become a little too familiar with the process and get 
> sloppy. I have had my share of stains and burns too. I definitely 
> prefer the FeCl3 stain.
>
> When I do an acid etch, I wear goggles and rubber gloves. I have the 
> etchant tank in a second containment tray. I also have a half kilo of 
> baking soda handy as well as running water. After finishing, I dust 
> everything with baking soda and keep adding baking soda to any spots 
> that fizz. Then carefully wash everything down.
>
> The acid etching process does generate heat and bubbles. There can be 
> a mist of etchant that is almost invisible. You will notice the 
> effects, if not immediately, but in a very short period of time. Acid 
> burns cause intense pain and heal very slowly. Fabric distegrates.
>
> Do not underestimate the danger. Having a little "experience with 
> acds and bases" in high school, does not adequately prepare you for 
> proper use.
>
> Be safe!
>
> Myc
> Industrial Chemist for 30 years

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