Homebrew PCBs

Have you had enough of photoimagable pcb etching?

I just found (and purchased) this product from Digikey, pn# 182-1003-
ND. $14.95. If you buy two packages, Digikey will waive the 8.00 
shipping fee.

Each package contains ten sheets of laser-printable, specially water-
soluable paper, plus green thermal transfer film.

Check out the product page:

http://www.pulsar.gs/PCB/a_Pages/3_Direct_Etch/3c_How_Fine_A_Line/How_F
ine_A_Line.html

Now... if only the same could be done for the solder mask!

I'll post a final review after I create my prototype.

Torin...

--- torinwalker <torinwalker@...> wrote:

> Have you had enough of photoimagable pcb etching?
> 
> I just found (and purchased) this product from Digikey, pn# 182-1003-
> ND. $14.95. If you buy two packages, Digikey will waive the 8.00 
> shipping fee.

there definitely are cheaper (and better?) ways...


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:29:05 +0100, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@...>  
wrote:

>
> there definitely are cheaper (and better?) ways...


Let's have a competition, who can do the finest lines with TT? ;-)

ST

Follow the  instructions on saving paper.  I went thru 10 sheets
learning how to do it.  Spendy.  Remember to print your image on the
shinny side.



good luck




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "torinwalker" <torinwalker@...>
wrote:
>
> Have you had enough of photoimagable pcb etching?
>
> I just found (and purchased) this product from Digikey, pn# 182-1003-
> ND. $14.95. If you buy two packages, Digikey will waive the 8.00
> shipping fee.
>
> Each package contains ten sheets of laser-printable, specially water-
> soluable paper, plus green thermal transfer film.
>
> Check out the product page:
>
>
http://www.pulsar.gs/PCB/a_Pages/3_Direct_Etch/3c_How_Fine_A_Line/How_F

> ine_A_Line.html
>
> Now... if only the same could be done for the solder mask!
>
> I'll post a final review after I create my prototype.
>
> Torin...
>

It would be interesting to try to create a home-made version of that "shiny" coating. What chemicals can you think of that would allow one to coat an ordinary piece of laser-printer paper so that one could print on it, and dissolve the bond between the toner and the paper with ordinary water?

I was imagining a water-soluable shellac, of sorts. My brother is into chemistry. I'll ask him.

Perhaps we can save on the paper. The film is dirt cheap - 8" x 15' for $8.99. The paper is the killer.


Torin...

----- Original Message ----
From: nixiebuilder <g_cw@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 12:51:57 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer System - order direct from your favourite supplier (e.g. Digikey)


Follow the instructions on saving paper. I went thru 10 sheets
learning how to do it. Spendy. Remember to print your image on the
shinny side.

good luck

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com, "torinwalker" <torinwalker@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Have you had enough of photoimagable pcb etching?
>
> I just found (and purchased) this product from Digikey, pn# 182-1003-
> ND. $14.95. If you buy two packages, Digikey will waive the 8.00
> shipping fee.
>
> Each package contains ten sheets of laser-printable, specially water-
> soluable paper, plus green thermal transfer film.
>
> Check out the product page:
>
>
http://www.pulsar. gs/PCB/a_ Pages/3_Direct_ Etch/3c_How_ Fine_A_Line/ How_F
> ine_A_Line.html
>
> Now... if only the same could be done for the solder mask!
>
> I'll post a final review after I create my prototype.
>
> Torin...
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 18:42 +0100, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 18:29:05 +0100, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@...>  
> wrote:

> > there definitely are cheaper (and better?) ways...

> Let's have a competition, who can do the finest lines with TT? ;-)

/me awaits people's pics of perfect 4mil traces

Seriously though - the best TT results I've had have been with inkjet
gloss card, 8 passes through laminator.

Press'n'peel film - no luck, the toner just doesn't transfer.

'Time Magazine' gloss paper - transfers ok, but with distortion that
could mess badly with fine close traces.

WashAway paper - transfers fine, but with similar distortion to magazine
gloss paper. Etching takes longer (since a fine layer of paper fibres
stays on board and won't wash away), however this is offset by the
convenience of instant wash-away of the bulk of the paper.

Cheers
David

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:13:59 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@...>  
wrote:

> It would be interesting to try to create a home-made version of that  
> "shiny" coating. What chemicals can you think of that would allow one to  
> coat an ordinary piece of laser-printer paper so that one could print on  
> it, and dissolve the bond between the toner and the paper with ordinary  
> water?
> I was imagining a water-soluable shellac, of sorts. My brother is into  
> chemistry. I'll ask him.
> Perhaps we can save on the paper. The film is dirt cheap - 8" x 15' for  
> $8.99. The paper is the killer.
> Torin...


Just use inkjet photo paper. It is the easiest, cheapest option people  
have found.

Several coatings were tried, starch and stuff, i do not remember how those  
turned out exactly (not spectacular or i would remember). I personally  
have very good results with high temperature silicone, but there is a  
problem, the result will "etch through" in places. I do not know why, but  
one reason may be that the silicone does not add any paper residue, like  
the papers do. It is great for component legend though because it leaves a  
jet black toner image with no annoying grey residue, and of course you can  
just pull it off the PCB without any water involved (you can even re-use  
it if you like).

Anyway, the coatings are interesting and all, but nothing (i know of) was  
found that delivers better results than inkjet papers.

ST

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:47:07 +0100, David McNab <rebirth@...>  
wrote:

> /me awaits people's pics of perfect 4mil traces


I believe underetching is getting me there even with a good transfer.

I'll make a test when i do the next board.

ST

> Let's have a competition, who can do the finest lines with TT? ;-)
> 
> ST
>

Sounds like fun! :-)  What are the ground rules?

I may cheat though and use my CNC machine if I have to in order to 
win ;-)

Chris

On Jan 15, 2007, at 2:13 PM, Torin Walker wrote:

> I was imagining a water-soluable shellac, of sorts. My brother is  
> into chemistry. I'll ask him.
>
> Perhaps we can save on the paper. The film is dirt cheap - 8" x 15'  
> for $8.99. The paper is the killer.


I was thinking about sprayable silicone.   But then I wondered if it  
would damage the printer and decided that printers cost more than paper.


William Carr

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If I recall correctly, the finish on most "glossy" paper is a kind
of clay that is applied and then run through a series of "polishing"
rollers.

Roland F. Harriston
**********************************

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:13:59 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@...>  
> wrote:
>
>   
>> It would be interesting to try to create a home-made version of that  
>> "shiny" coating. What chemicals can you think of that would allow one to  
>> coat an ordinary piece of laser-printer paper so that one could print on  
>> it, and dissolve the bond between the toner and the paper with ordinary  
>> water?
>> I was imagining a water-soluable shellac, of sorts. My brother is into  
>> chemistry. I'll ask him.
>> Perhaps we can save on the paper. The film is dirt cheap - 8" x 15' for  
>> $8.99. The paper is the killer.
>> Torin...
>>     
>
>
> Just use inkjet photo paper. It is the easiest, cheapest option people  
> have found.
>
> Several coatings were tried, starch and stuff, i do not remember how those  
> turned out exactly (not spectacular or i would remember). I personally  
> have very good results with high temperature silicone, but there is a  
> problem, the result will "etch through" in places. I do not know why, but  
> one reason may be that the silicone does not add any paper residue, like  
> the papers do. It is great for component legend though because it leaves a  
> jet black toner image with no annoying grey residue, and of course you can  
> just pull it off the PCB without any water involved (you can even re-use  
> it if you like).
>
> Anyway, the coatings are interesting and all, but nothing (i know of) was  
> found that delivers better results than inkjet papers.
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

The URL below gives a  lot of information on various grades of
clay coated paper. I think Time magazine and some catalogs are
printed on one of the lower (if not the lowest) grade of clay coated
paper.

Mostly, this "stock" in only available in very large sizes and
very large quantities for the printing industry.

Perhaps someone can find a printing house that is willing
to sell small quantities of the material for our experimentation.

http://www.conservatree.com/paper/PaperDesc.shtml

Roland Harriston wrote:

> If I recall correctly, the finish on most "glossy" paper is a kind
> of clay that is applied and then run through a series of "polishing"
> rollers.
>
> Roland F. Harriston
> **********************************
>
>
>   
>

I've sent out a blanket email asking for help on sourcing a coated paper compatible with the transfer process (per the original thread post), starting with the site you provided. I have also sent it to places that provide specialty papers, printing transfer (injet, laser, copier, etc.) paper, and a number of other places. About fifteen companies in all. While searching for companies well suited to ponder my plea, I noticed a number of companies who feature transfer paper, many of which supply laser-printer transfer paper.

Transfer paper is actually pretty cheap when compared to the Toner Transfer Kit. By my calculations, the Toner Transfer Kit contains 10 sheets of paper, and probably as many (nearly equally sized) pieces of transfer film. If the film is $8.99 for 8" x 15' (yards), then 10 sheets of 8x10" costs roughly 45 cents. The remaining $14.55 is divided evenly between the 10 sheets of transfer paper, making them a $1.46 each.

I have seen ads for laser-toner transfer sheets costing $33 for 50 sheets. The only question that remains is whether that paper is equal to the paper in the kit. We shall soon have an answer from many authoritative and reputable paper companies. Let's hope the answers aren't all crap.


Torin...

----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Harriston <rolohar@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:46:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Clay Coated Paper (Various Grades)


The URL below gives a  lot of information on various grades of
clay coated paper. I think Time magazine and some catalogs are
printed on one of the lower (if not the lowest) grade of clay coated
paper.

Mostly, this "stock" in only available in very large sizes and
very large quantities for the printing industry.

Perhaps someone can find a printing house that is willing
to sell small quantities of the material for our experimentation.

http://www.conservatree.com/paper/PaperDesc.shtml

Roland Harriston wrote:
> If I recall correctly, the finish on most "glossy" paper is a kind
> of clay that is applied and then run through a series of "polishing"
> rollers.
>
> Roland F. Harriston
> **********************************
>
>
>   
>   


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:53:26 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@...>  
wrote:

>
> Transfer paper is actually pretty cheap when compared to the Toner  
> Transfer Kit. By my calculations, the Toner Transfer Kit contains 10  
> sheets of paper, and probably as many (nearly equally sized) pieces of  
> transfer film. If the film is $8.99 for 8" x 15' (yards), then 10 sheets  
> of 8x10" costs roughly 45 cents. The remaining $14.55 is divided evenly  
> between the 10 sheets of transfer paper, making them a $1.46 each.


I don't understand why you don't simply go to the next office supply store  
any buy clay coated paper _off the shelf_?
Many Inkjet papers are clay coated.

I'm sure the sheets sold at $1.46 each are no better than the inkjet paper  
sold at $0.10 a sheet.


ST

I think what I would strive for would be a glossy, clay coated paper that
is not heavy stock like most inkjet papers.  Some inkjet papers a nearly
as thick as card stock.......tough  to dissolve, requiring scrubbing. 

I think I would like to have a thinner stock, something like that used for
Time magazine, catalogs, and others. The reason for going to a thinner 
stock is that
it would dissolve much faster and easier than the thicker stock used for 
inkjet paper.

So, that's why I suggested trying to get some "Time magazine"
type paper from a local printing establishment.

Unfortunately, there are no big-scale printing houses in my
immediate area.  We once had a large Alpha Graphics operation
here, but they moved out due to lack of business.

NOTE: Sorry that my photos of the local Muriatic acid sources
was filtered out.  I should have realized that they would be.
My Bad.

Roland F. Harriston
***************************
Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:53:26 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@...>  
> wrote:
>
>   
>> Transfer paper is actually pretty cheap when compared to the Toner  
>> Transfer Kit. By my calculations, the Toner Transfer Kit contains 10  
>> sheets of paper, and probably as many (nearly equally sized) pieces of  
>> transfer film. If the film is $8.99 for 8" x 15' (yards), then 10 sheets  
>> of 8x10" costs roughly 45 cents. The remaining $14.55 is divided evenly  
>> between the 10 sheets of transfer paper, making them a $1.46 each.
>>     
>
>
> I don't understand why you don't simply go to the next office supply store  
> any buy clay coated paper _off the shelf_?
> Many Inkjet papers are clay coated.
>
> I'm sure the sheets sold at $1.46 each are no better than the inkjet paper  
> sold at $0.10 a sheet.
>
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My understanding is that the paper in the kit isn't arbitrary; it is supposedly a specially coated paper whose printing surface dissolves in water such that the toner is completely released from the film. I've tried using ordinary paper, but it always leaves a grey film on the toner.

I guess I'll find out when I finally receive the TT Kit. I'll be relieved it it does turn out to be ordinary paper, because then I'll buy it at $0.10 per sheet.


Torin...

----- Original Message ----
From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:40:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Clay Coated Paper (Various Grades)


On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:53:26 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@...>  
wrote:

>
> Transfer paper is actually pretty cheap when compared to the Toner  
> Transfer Kit. By my calculations, the Toner Transfer Kit contains 10  
> sheets of paper, and probably as many (nearly equally sized) pieces of  
> transfer film. If the film is $8.99 for 8" x 15' (yards), then 10 sheets  
> of 8x10" costs roughly 45 cents. The remaining $14.55 is divided evenly  
> between the 10 sheets of transfer paper, making them a $1.46 each.


I don't understand why you don't simply go to the next office supply store  
any buy clay coated paper _off the shelf_?
Many Inkjet papers are clay coated.

I'm sure the sheets sold at $1.46 each are no better than the inkjet paper  
sold at $0.10 a sheet.


ST


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 20:50:20 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@...>  
wrote:

> My understanding is that the paper in the kit isn't arbitrary; it is  
> supposedly a specially coated paper whose printing surface dissolves in  
> water such that the toner is completely released from the film. I've  
> tried using ordinary paper, but it always leaves a grey film on the  
> toner.
> I guess I'll find out when I finally receive the TT Kit. I'll be  
> relieved it it does turn out to be ordinary paper, because then I'll buy  
> it at $0.10 per sheet.
> Torin...


My understanding is they just want your cash.
Some rubbing with a piece of foam rubber and the white residue goes away,  
but it is not a problem unless you want to make component legend.
The etchant does not mind the looks.

ST

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 20:43:17 +0100, Roland Harriston <rolohar@...>  
wrote:

> I think what I would strive for would be a glossy, clay coated paper that
> is not heavy stock like most inkjet papers.  Some inkjet papers a nearly
> as thick as card stock.......tough  to dissolve, requiring scrubbing.
> I think I would like to have a thinner stock, something like that used  
> for
> Time magazine, catalogs, and others. The reason for going to a thinner
> stock is that
> it would dissolve much faster and easier than the thicker stock used for
> inkjet paper.
> So, that's why I suggested trying to get some "Time magazine"
> type paper from a local printing establishment.

Yes, thinner is better. But some photo papers are barely thicker than  
regular copy paper (100g/sqm compared to 80g/sqm), and i'm not sure much  
thinner paper is good with feeding and distortion and stuff. Taking the  
bulk thickness of paper away takes only a few seconds if you roll it off.  
You can speed up soaking by giving it a brush with a brass wire brush  
(after transfer), that breaks the surface. It seems to me the surface is  
what takes long to soak through. If you only make a few scratches and dunk  
it you can see how the paper goes dark around the scratches.

> Unfortunately, there are no big-scale printing houses in my
> immediate area.  We once had a large Alpha Graphics operation
> here, but they moved out due to lack of business.

Same here. I remember we got huge blocks of paper out of the dumpster when  
we were children. Could've made a life's worth of TT with a single dive in  
the dumpster i reckon, if it was the right paper, the cutoffs were more  
than plenty large for PCBs.
Maybe if someone has a printer nearby he oughta check the dumpsters!

Can't hurt to try, but i wouldn't put too much effort into it, since the  
paper store stuff is just fine. Cutting the sheets in half makes it a bit  
cheaper.

ST

On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 20:57 +0100, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> Some rubbing with a piece of foam rubber and the white residue goes away,  

Also, don't forget the option of putting clear packing tape over the
board, and peeling it off slowly and gently. Done right, it pulls off
all paper traces without disturbing the toner.

Cheers
David

Home depot sells muriatic acid. It's (nearly) as common as road salt. Why would your sources be filtered out?

----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Harriston <rolohar@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:43:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Clay Coated Paper (Various Grades)

I think what I would strive for would be a glossy, clay coated paper that
is not heavy stock like most inkjet papers. Some inkjet papers a nearly
as thick as card stock....... tough to dissolve, requiring scrubbing. 

I think I would like to have a thinner stock, something like that used for
Time magazine, catalogs, and others. The reason for going to a thinner 
stock is that
it would dissolve much faster and easier than the thicker stock used for 
inkjet paper.

So, that's why I suggested trying to get some "Time magazine"
type paper from a local printing establishment.

Unfortunately, there are no big-scale printing houses in my
immediate area. We once had a large Alpha Graphics operation
here, but they moved out due to lack of business.

NOTE: Sorry that my photos of the local Muriatic acid sources
was filtered out. I should have realized that they would be.
My Bad.

Roland F. Harriston
************ ********* ******
Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:53:26 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@ rogers.com> 
> wrote:
>
> 
>> Transfer paper is actually pretty cheap when compared to the Toner 
>> Transfer Kit. By my calculations, the Toner Transfer Kit contains 10 
>> sheets of paper, and probably as many (nearly equally sized) pieces of 
>> transfer film. If the film is $8.99 for 8" x 15' (yards), then 10 sheets 
>> of 8x10" costs roughly 45 cents. The remaining $14.55 is divided evenly 
>> between the 10 sheets of transfer paper, making them a $1.46 each.
>> 
>
>
> I don't understand why you don't simply go to the next office supply store 
> any buy clay coated paper _off the shelf_?
> Many Inkjet papers are clay coated.
>
> I'm sure the sheets sold at $1.46 each are no better than the inkjet paper 
> sold at $0.10 a sheet.
>
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:47:13 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@...>  
wrote:

> Why would your sources be filtered out?


No attachments allowed.

ST

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:34:58 +0100, David McNab <rebirth@...>  
wrote:

>
> Also, don't forget the option of putting clear packing tape over the
> board, and peeling it off slowly and gently. Done right, it pulls off
> all paper traces without disturbing the toner.
> Cheers
> David


I must try that some day, probably with a transfer gone wrong. Sounds  
crazy, but if you say it works...

ST

> Torin Walker wrote:
>
> Home depot sells muriatic acid. It's
> (nearly) as common as road salt.

Sorry for being a late entry here.  I know
this argument has been done to death. I
know your probably all sick of it.

HOWEVER.

In OZ no one sells muriatic acid.  
Hardware stores and Pool shops all sell
Hydrochloric acid.  If you ask a concreter
or pool cleaner about muruatic acid he
will look at you funny.

We also don't have lye or soda ash for
sale here.  About the only name people
have mentioned that are still sold under
old world names is Backing Soda (which
still has "Sodium Bicarbonate" on the
box as well.


NB - We don't have things called Sodium
Carbonate or Sodium Hydroxide for sale on
the shelves either.  They all have brand
names like "miracle burn" or "chemiclean"
but the ingredients list has the real
names.

Torin:

You are correct. But here on the Sonoran desert we don't use very
much road salt, but we do use a lot of chlorine and muriatic acid.

In a post to the PCB list, I enclosed a URL where I had uploaded two
photos I took yesterday.

One showed stacks of 2-gallon cartons of muriatic acid in
plastic jugs next to the stacks of dog chow in a local super market.
The other photo showed one and two gallon jugs of muriatic acid
at a local home improvement/garden supply emporium (Home Depot).

In order to view the photos, one would had have to click on the URL,
and I suspect that there is a possibility that a virus or some such
could be propagated in such a manner, thus the message was
screened out.

Some list members had mentioned that it was difficult for them to
obtain chemicals like muriatic acid, and I wanted to illustrate the
wide difference in bureaucratic mindsets in different venues.

Not bragging or boasting..........just a point of wonderment on my part.
What is so common in one area can be so uncommon in another.

Roland F. Harriston
***************************

Torin Walker wrote:
>
> Home depot sells muriatic acid. It's (nearly) as common as road salt. 
> Why would your sources be filtered out?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Roland Harriston <rolohar@... 
> <mailto:rolohar%40comcast.net>>
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:43:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Clay Coated Paper (Various Grades)
>
> I think what I would strive for would be a glossy, clay coated paper that
> is not heavy stock like most inkjet papers. Some inkjet papers a nearly
> as thick as card stock....... tough to dissolve, requiring scrubbing.
>
> I think I would like to have a thinner stock, something like that used for
> Time magazine, catalogs, and others. The reason for going to a thinner
> stock is that
> it would dissolve much faster and easier than the thicker stock used for
> inkjet paper.
>
> So, that's why I suggested trying to get some "Time magazine"
> type paper from a local printing establishment.
>
> Unfortunately, there are no big-scale printing houses in my
> immediate area. We once had a large Alpha Graphics operation
> here, but they moved out due to lack of business.
>
> NOTE: Sorry that my photos of the local Muriatic acid sources
> was filtered out. I should have realized that they would be.
> My Bad.
>
> Roland F. Harriston
> ************ ********* ******
> Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:53:26 +0100, Torin Walker <torinwalker@ 
> rogers.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Transfer paper is actually pretty cheap when compared to the Toner
> >> Transfer Kit. By my calculations, the Toner Transfer Kit contains 10
> >> sheets of paper, and probably as many (nearly equally sized) pieces of
> >> transfer film. If the film is $8.99 for 8" x 15' (yards), then 10 
> sheets
> >> of 8x10" costs roughly 45 cents. The remaining $14.55 is divided 
> evenly
> >> between the 10 sheets of transfer paper, making them a $1.46 each.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I don't understand why you don't simply go to the next office supply 
> store
> > any buy clay coated paper _off the shelf_?
> > Many Inkjet papers are clay coated.
> >
> > I'm sure the sheets sold at $1.46 each are no better than the inkjet 
> paper
> > sold at $0.10 a sheet.
> >
> >
> > ST
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBs
> >
> > If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Homebrew_ PCBs_Archives/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:35:58 +0100, Roland Harriston <rolohar@...>  
wrote:

>
> One showed stacks of 2-gallon cartons of muriatic acid in
> plastic jugs next to the stacks of dog chow in a local super market.
> The other photo showed one and two gallon jugs of muriatic acid
> at a local home improvement/garden supply emporium (Home Depot).


How many % does that have?
While it is no problem to buy around here, it's usually not that openly  
available on the shop floor (child safety etc.).
There are certainly not large stacks of it in any shop here.

I'd be curious about the photos, dunno why the url got eaten, perhaps try  
to disguise it or something.
I thought you attached a picture.

ST

On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 22:29 +0100, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:34:58 +0100, David McNab <rebirth@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Also, don't forget the option of putting clear packing tape over the
> > board, and peeling it off slowly and gently. Done right, it pulls off
> > all paper traces without disturbing the toner.
> > Cheers
> > David
> 
> 
> I must try that some day, probably with a transfer gone wrong. Sounds  
> crazy, but if you say it works...

Why not try it now with a bit of board off-cut?

The trick is to peel the tape off by not pulling it up away from the
board, but along the board towards the opposite end, and to keep the
pull force to a minimum at all times, and the pull rate to a couple of
mm per sec max. Any jerking with the pull will most definitely pull up
traces and pads, but a slow, gentle pull will leave the toner completely
undisturbed. You'll even see the paper on the removed tape showing the
artwork in fine detail.


Cheers
David

Andrew wrote:
>> Torin Walker wrote:
>>
>> Home depot sells muriatic acid. It's
>> (nearly) as common as road salt.
> 
> Sorry for being a late entry here.  I know
> this argument has been done to death. I
> know your probably all sick of it.
> 
> HOWEVER.
> 
> In OZ no one sells muriatic acid.  
> Hardware stores and Pool shops all sell
> Hydrochloric acid.  If you ask a concreter
> or pool cleaner about muruatic acid he
> will look at you funny.

Hardware shops here have sold HCl as
"spirits of salts".

> We also don't have lye or soda ash for
> sale here.  About the only name people
> have mentioned that are still sold under
> old world names is Backing Soda (which
> still has "Sodium Bicarbonate" on the
> box as well.
> 
> 
> NB - We don't have things called Sodium
> Carbonate or Sodium Hydroxide for sale on
> the shelves either.  They all have brand
> names like "miracle burn" or "chemiclean"
> but the ingredients list has the real
> names.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I don't understand why you don't simply go to the next office supply
> store  
> any buy clay coated paper _off the shelf_?
> Many Inkjet papers are clay coated.
> 
> I'm sure the sheets sold at $1.46 each are no better than the inkjet 
> paper  
> sold at $0.10 a sheet.
> 
> 
> ST

I don't use inkjet paper because it's a very good way to wreck your
laser printer. I don't have one at the moment because I have three
inkjets (one office type printer modified for refills for massive
amounts of printing, a photo printer with OEM dyebased ink for photos,
and one photo printer that I'm experimenting with pigment ink refills)
and don't have room for it, so I run off my copies at Staples on a
copier. I don't really do enough etching to justify buying one when I
can get 2,000+ copies for the price of one printer (without buying
refills, too!) So the paper I buy has to say laser compatible, as most
inkjet paper will melt/buckle/otherwise jam up and I don't feel like
having to explain why a $50,000 machine just got damaged. Press'n'Peel
and the pulsar.gs paper are both designed specifically for laser tech
(but even Press'n'Peel Blue, which is home-laser compatible, will
completely melt in many color copiers).

Right now I use HP Glossy Photo Paper for LASER printers, which makes
a nice transfer, but is difficult to remove. Even if I had my own
laser printer, I doubt I'd run inkjet paper through it. I just don't
think it's a good idea - I've seen too many other people wind up
having their printers damaged because they used inkjet to try to print
a photo on a laser 'because it's photo paper!', though I believe the
issue is much more of a problem with color lasers than small consumer
grade black and white ones.

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:38:30 +0100, fenrir_co <fenrir@...>  
wrote:

>
> I don't use inkjet paper because it's a very good way to wreck your
> laser printer. I don't have one at the moment because I have three
> inkjets (one office type printer modified for refills for massive
> amounts of printing, a photo printer with OEM dyebased ink for photos,
> and one photo printer that I'm experimenting with pigment ink refills)
> and don't have room for it, so I run off my copies at Staples on a
> copier. I don't really do enough etching to justify buying one when I
> can get 2,000+ copies for the price of one printer (without buying
> refills, too!) So the paper I buy has to say laser compatible, as most
> inkjet paper will melt/buckle/otherwise jam up and I don't feel like
> having to explain why a $50,000 machine just got damaged. Press'n'Peel
> and the pulsar.gs paper are both designed specifically for laser tech
> (but even Press'n'Peel Blue, which is home-laser compatible, will
> completely melt in many color copiers).
> Right now I use HP Glossy Photo Paper for LASER printers, which makes
> a nice transfer, but is difficult to remove. Even if I had my own
> laser printer, I doubt I'd run inkjet paper through it. I just don't
> think it's a good idea - I've seen too many other people wind up
> having their printers damaged because they used inkjet to try to print
> a photo on a laser 'because it's photo paper!', though I believe the
> issue is much more of a problem with color lasers than small consumer
> grade black and white ones.


Well, you must suit yourself.
I doubt a used laser printer for 10eur was much of an investment for me,  
and i have never had any inkjet paper jam. I wouldn't use an inkjet for  
printing if i can possibly avoid it, even with refills they are a  
nightmare compared to lasers.

Anyway, you must do what seems best for you, it just may not make sense to  
other people.

ST