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Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-25 by Russ

New to the list today, have been doing manual resist application and
slosh etching on occasion as needed since the 70's. Now I have some
space and this list seems to be the resource I need to move into
other etchants, resists, etch tank systems, etc.

I'm a professional
PC/laptop/server/printer/plotter/copier/network/cabling technician
after being a conventional and nuclear missile systems tech in the
USAF as well as a technical instructor for 8 of the 20 in the AF from
mid 70's to mid 90's. I've also worked for others as a bench tech and
field service tech since retirement prior to and during my self
employment that started full time in 2000. I recently went part time
and went to work at the Toshiba Laptop Depot in Louisville that UPS-
SCS runs under contract for Toshiba, 10 months of popping aspirin to
chug along (I hated the corporate environment, loved the work when
they left me alone). Anyway my business in field and bench service is
back again full time and I've added signs and soon silk screen (did
that for Illinois Molding Co in Chicago prior to the USAF as wel as
photolab and studio for Williams & Meyer in Chicago) and learning how
all the old ways like silk screen have gone from dangerous and
complicated to easy home level and not-so-dangerous.

Since I do a lot of laser, thermal, ink, dot, dye, etc printers and
plotters I also have a fair share of scrap as well as replacement
parts and sources. I see a lot of people are working with bare fusers
to make laminators and a few even working with direct toner
application or electrostatic transfer then heating/fusing for
resists. I have approx 80 different printers in storage and might
just tinker this winter with these ideas myself, maybe modify a 600
or 1200 dpi laser with wide fuser to accomodate direct board feed and
print. Anyway if and when people come up with needs posted for parts
for these projects I can probably help out with a free or inexpensive
item or a source that is reasonable. I'm hanging onto all the
servomotors and carriage rods for now for a possible CNC project
later. I also have a vinyl cutter-plotter and see that vinyl is a
good resist and will try that as well. Mine is a 30" bed but I can
feed as small as 3" wide so the possibilities are endless.

Question for the list - what's a good or great but free circuit
drawing program for Windows (XP down to 3.11) or DOS out there I can
download? Linux of course is another option if it has an x86 version
or even a Power PC version as I have an old AIX based IBM server I
can use too. I'm sure there are others for older non-Intel platforms
such as Commodore (I see someone used a PET for a CNC drill, nice) or
Apple or TRS-DOS etc but even having a wide array of old machines I
can use (I have IBMs back to the original PC and non-IBM items back
to the Commodores, Osbornes, etc) I'd prefer to leave the oldies
aside for museum pieces more or less and concentrate on machines like
my dual PIII-1ghz HP X-class machine I bought from GM's Corvette
plant down here in Ky.

Any help is appreciated although I will be dead for the most part
until I get into some free time otherwise I'll lurk and answer if I
can help.

Russ Blakeman
Clarkson, KY (originally from Chicago)

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-25 by Wayne C. Gramlich

[snip]

> Question for the list - what's a good or great but free circuit
> drawing program for Windows (XP down to 3.11) or DOS out there I can
> download? Linux of course is another option if it has an x86 version
> or even a Power PC version as I have an old AIX based IBM server I
> can use too.

KiCAD is multi platform (Linux, Windows, etc.) and has no
size restrictions (like EagleCAD.):

<http://kicad.sourceforge.net/en/index.shtml>

For a 'nix only solution:

<http://www.geda.seul.org/>

The gEDA stuff has been around longer, KiCAD seems pretty
functional to me.

Enjoy,

-Wayne

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-25 by Wayne C. Gramlich

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" <Wayne@...>
wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Question for the list - what's a good or great but free circuit
> > drawing program for Windows (XP down to 3.11) or DOS out there I can
> > download? Linux of course is another option if it has an x86 version
> > or even a Power PC version as I have an old AIX based IBM server I
> > can use too.
>
> KiCAD is multi platform (Linux, Windows, etc.) and has no
> size restrictions (like EagleCAD.):

Oops, I should clarify. The free version of EagleCAD:

<http://www.cadsoftusa.com/>

is the one that has size restrictions of 4" x 3.2") and
one sheet of schematic capture. The professional version
has no such restrictions. Lot's of people use it 'tho.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> <http://kicad.sourceforge.net/en/index.shtml>
>
> For a 'nix only solution:
>
> <http://www.geda.seul.org/>
>
> The gEDA stuff has been around longer, KiCAD seems pretty
> functional to me.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> -Wayne
>

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-26 by Wayne C. Gramlich

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
> DJ Delorie <dj@...> writes:
> > gEDA runs on Windows and Mac OS/X too. It is NOT a windows-only
> > solution.
>
> Of course, I meant it's not a "*nix-only" solution. Serves me right
> for posting first thing in the morning :-P

My recollection is that PCB (the printed circuit board program
layout program) is based on the X11 window system, which tends
to make it very *nix centric.

OK, I just checked the FAQ for PCB:

Can I run PCB on my favorite operating system?

PCB should run under any unix-like operating system that
has X11 installed.

What about PCB under Windows?

Although a native windows port of PCB does not exist,
PCB has been compiled successfully under cygwin. You
will need Xfree86 to be installed as well as gcc, make,
m4, and tcl/tk. Please note that cygwin is not the
typical platform of PCB developers and support for this
port may be lacking.

So, it *can* be run under Windows, but the phrase "support for
this port may be lacking" does not inspire much confidence in
me. None-the-less, the next time I mention gEDA, I will mention
that it has been ported to Windows.

Anyhow, both gEDA and KiCAD are GPL'd with open document
formats and active communities that support the software.
There are no artificial size restrictions on gEDA or KiCAD.

-Wayne

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-26 by DJ Delorie

"Wayne C. Gramlich" <Wayne@...> writes:
> My recollection is that PCB (the printed circuit board program
> layout program) is based on the X11 window system, which tends
> to make it very *nix centric.

PCB is based on Gtk or Lesstif. There is a native Gtk for Windows
(using MinGW, not Cygwin), which PCB uses for Windows support. The
Lesstif GUI works under OS/X's OpenMotif. Either GUI works (your
choice :) under *nix.

Someone's working on porting it to the Amiga (again), too, using
ReactOS.

We've been busy this last year!

> OK, I just checked the FAQ for PCB:

Yeah, the docs are out of date.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> There are no artificial size restrictions on gEDA or KiCAD.

I calculated once that PCB could do a board that was 0.25 miles to a
side, at 0.000010" resolution.

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-26 by Phil Mattison

Hi Wayne,
I just spent an hour looking at KiCad. Looks pretty impressive, though I got
the impression that the footprint library may be a bit light. Could be a big
time sink if too many components require custom footprints. The 3D views are
impressive as well, but may suffer from the same problem, and the symbol
editor seems a bit awkward. Overall it looks like a fairly steep learning
curve, and I hate to invest the time only to find that it has some fatal
flaw that makes continued use impractical. I'm wondering if you have used it
for any real projects, or have seen accounts from people who have. I didn't
have much luck searching for anecdotes.
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Wayne C. Gramlich <Wayne@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:15 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and
others


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > DJ Delorie <dj@...> writes:
> > > gEDA runs on Windows and Mac OS/X too. It is NOT a windows-only
> > > solution.
> >
> > Of course, I meant it's not a "*nix-only" solution. Serves me right
> > for posting first thing in the morning :-P
>
> My recollection is that PCB (the printed circuit board program
> layout program) is based on the X11 window system, which tends
> to make it very *nix centric.
>
> OK, I just checked the FAQ for PCB:
>
> Can I run PCB on my favorite operating system?
>
> PCB should run under any unix-like operating system that
> has X11 installed.
>
> What about PCB under Windows?
>
> Although a native windows port of PCB does not exist,
> PCB has been compiled successfully under cygwin. You
> will need Xfree86 to be installed as well as gcc, make,
> m4, and tcl/tk. Please note that cygwin is not the
> typical platform of PCB developers and support for this
> port may be lacking.
>
> So, it *can* be run under Windows, but the phrase "support for
> this port may be lacking" does not inspire much confidence in
> me. None-the-less, the next time I mention gEDA, I will mention
> that it has been ported to Windows.
>
> Anyhow, both gEDA and KiCAD are GPL'd with open document
> formats and active communities that support the software.
> There are no artificial size restrictions on gEDA or KiCAD.
>
> -Wayne
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by Wayne C. Gramlich

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Mattison" <mattison20@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Wayne,
> I just spent an hour looking at KiCad. Looks pretty impressive,
> though I got the impression that the footprint library may be
> a bit light. Could be a big time sink if too many components
> require custom footprints. The 3D views are impressive as well,
> but may suffer from the same problem, and the symbol editor
> seems a bit awkward. Overall it looks like a fairly steep learning
> curve, and I hate to invest the time only to find that it has
> some fatal flaw that makes continued use impractical. I'm
> wondering if you have used it for any real projects, or have
> seen accounts from people who have. I didn't have much luck
> searching for anecdotes.

When it comes to CAD packages, either ECAD or MCAD, there
is always a learning curve. I have done the KiCAD tutorial
and found it to be reasonable. It did not feel that steep
to me.

Your observation about landing pads is correct, but as the
community grows, the landing pads should be fleshed out.
The KiCAD community continues to take submissions for new
landing pads. The 3D views will take much longer, but more
and more vendors are starting to publish their parts in either
IGES or DXF format.

For me, the biggest weakness is that KiCAD does not
provide for panelization right now. I tend to do lots
of small projects that need to be combined onto one board
for fabrication. There is a program called GerbMerge that
might be able to do it.

For evidence of suitablity, I would recommend joining
KiCAD@... and asking for some examples.

The final question of whether or not I have used it yet,
is no, I continue to use a home grown PCB layout package
that I developed over the past 20 years. If you are really
really bored, here's a URL for my stuff:

<http://gramlich.net/projects/hobecad/index.html>

My stuff is on its last legs, so pretty soon now, I need
to switch over to something that is not nearly as brain
dead.

-Wayne

[much snippage]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by DJ Delorie

"Phil Mattison" <mattison20@...> writes:
> I just spent an hour looking at KiCad. Looks pretty impressive,
> though I got the impression that the footprint library may be a bit
> light.

There are a ton of symbols in gEDA's library, and people end up making
their own anyway. Why? Because there are so many OTHER parts we
haven't gotten around to. Even with a big commercial system, there's
going to be parts you'll need to enter yourself, so it's one of the
things you should learn about any cad program.

What we did for gEDA was to set up a place where people could share
their libraries: www.gedasymbols.org. We're all still making our own
footprints, but at least we're not duplicating our efforts as much.
Even so, you end up making custom footprints for parts that aren't
common.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Could be a big time sink if too many components require custom
> footprints.

Yeah, we've put a lot of effort into streamlining that for gEDA, as
it's a common complaint. At least most of the parts use standard
footprints these days, but for symbols we have a number of "helper"
scripts that generate symbols from short textual descriptions, such as
my djboxsym, or jgboxsym or tragesym. I added two online web-form
footprint generators for two-pad SMTs and dual inline SMTs.

Anyway, IMHO learning how to make symbols and footprints should be
part of the evaluation of any cad package, since you end up doing it
anyway.

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by Phil Mattison

> Anyway, IMHO learning how to make symbols and footprints should be
> part of the evaluation of any cad package, since you end up doing it
> anyway.

Granted. The question is how much time will it take, which depends on how
easy it is and how many need to be made. While it may not take long to get a
feel for the editor, browsing and selecting things like components and
footprints is often awkward even in commercial software. Anyway, I got the
answers I was looking for in the responses here.

Speaking of old-timers, I used to etch my own circuit boards back in the 60s
when I was a teen-ager. I was a little surprised to see so many people still
doing it these days with services like ExpressPCB available.
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by Dave Mucha

>
> Speaking of old-timers, I used to etch my own circuit boards back in
the 60s
> when I was a teen-ager. I was a little surprised to see so many
people still
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> doing it these days with services like ExpressPCB available.

Services like Express are nice, but, if you want to make a small power
supply, screw terminals, regulator, cap, diodes, resistors... it
costs $20.00 for each board.

then you want to make a PWM to analog converter, couple resistors,
couple caps and and an op-amp. Another $20.00

but, since each board is $20 and you have to order 3 boards, the cost
is now $120.00 for those two boards.

I don't know about you, but I can make two boards in an hour and save
myself the $100 on the simple projects.

Dave

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by lcdpublishing

I agree with what Dave stated. The economics just are not there for
me. I can buy a bunch of PCB stock on Ebay very cheap. I can print
a lot of layouts on a laser printer very cheap. The Ferric chloride
for etching is cheap, the ironing process is cheap, drilling the
holes is cheap. All of the above is also pretty easy once you get
the hang of it - much easier than doing your own PCB design and
electronics design which brings me to the real reason why!!!

Being green about electronics, most of my designs do not work first
time out. Most of the stuff I have been designing does not lend
itself well to breadboarding or even perf boards. So, I do the best
I can in the design, layout the circuit, and make the PCBs myself.
If things go as usual, I may make the same board 3 or 4 times in one
day and that is very key for me. I don't like waiting 1 week, 2
weeks, 3 weeks, etc. for something I can do right now.

So, really, there are two primary advantages to making PCBs at home;
Economics and Instant gratification :-)

Chris





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Speaking of old-timers, I used to etch my own circuit boards
back in
> the 60s
> > when I was a teen-ager. I was a little surprised to see so many
> people still
> > doing it these days with services like ExpressPCB available.
>
> Services like Express are nice, but, if you want to make a small
power
> supply, screw terminals, regulator, cap, diodes, resistors... it
> costs $20.00 for each board.
>
> then you want to make a PWM to analog converter, couple resistors,
> couple caps and and an op-amp. Another $20.00
>
> but, since each board is $20 and you have to order 3 boards, the
cost
> is now $120.00 for those two boards.
>
> I don't know about you, but I can make two boards in an hour and
save
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> myself the $100 on the simple projects.
>
> Dave
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by DJ Delorie

"lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...> writes:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Being green about electronics, most of my designs do not work first
> time out.

I'm not green to electronics, but I still like to prototype parts of
each circuit before committing them to the final ($$$) board.
Home-brew is ideal for that, especially with the number of SMT parts
available these days. Make board. Test. Crap, doesn't work. Make
changes. Make another board. Test. Etc.

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by Dave Mucha

> Being green about electronics, most of my designs do not work first
> time out. Most of the stuff I have been designing does not lend
> itself well to breadboarding or even perf boards. So, I do the best
> I can in the design, layout the circuit, and make the PCBs myself.
> If things go as usual, I may make the same board 3 or 4 times in one
> day and that is very key for me. I don't like waiting 1 week, 2
> weeks, 3 weeks, etc. for something I can do right now.
>
> So, really, there are two primary advantages to making PCBs at home;
> Economics and Instant gratification :-)
>
> Chris
>

A couple of pointers. (getting back close to the list topic) when you
lay out your boards, put in some extra pads on both the Vcc and Vss
lines. plop them around both sides of chips.

add a set of 6 pads like a dice #6, connect one to Vcc and one to Vss.
that allows you to put in more stuff.

and then in areas that have nothing, put in a row of 10 pads in line
for 0.025 sq posts. you can make a small card with a header and add a
whole different circuit that way.

Also, if you have a chip you are not really sure about, and it has
Vcc, Vss, in and out, you can put in 4 pins, again 0.025, so you can
lay on a whole different board.

I had made a large relay board, 32 relays I think. Very large board.

It was controlled by I2C bus and a pair of port expanders.

I laid them out with the port expanders on cards so I could swap them
out for SPI bus if that was the better way to go.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33033234@N00/

buy using the daughter cards, the logic could have been swapped around
if needed.

This is the largest board I have made on my T-Tech machine, and as I
said yestarday, if I were to do it again, it would have been 2 boards.

BTW, anyone wanna guess how much a one-off board would have been at a
board house ?

I think it was $5.00 for the board and an hour in the machine.

Dave

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by Phil Mattison

Actually I've been debating whether to set up a quick PCB prototype
fabrication outfit myself. I guess the iron-on toner technique works pretty
well? Actually I have a UV exposure box so I probably could use positive
resist pre-coated boards easier. I already have a small milling machine. My
biggest hesitation has been what software to use for layout. It's so easy
with ExpressPCB I've gotten spoiled. But you're right, it is expensive. I
also would need a high-speed spindle.

Any software/spindle recommendations?
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and
others


> I agree with what Dave stated. The economics just are not there for
> me. I can buy a bunch of PCB stock on Ebay very cheap. I can print
> a lot of layouts on a laser printer very cheap. The Ferric chloride
> for etching is cheap, the ironing process is cheap, drilling the
> holes is cheap. All of the above is also pretty easy once you get
> the hang of it - much easier than doing your own PCB design and
> electronics design which brings me to the real reason why!!!
>
> Being green about electronics, most of my designs do not work first
> time out. Most of the stuff I have been designing does not lend
> itself well to breadboarding or even perf boards. So, I do the best
> I can in the design, layout the circuit, and make the PCBs myself.
> If things go as usual, I may make the same board 3 or 4 times in one
> day and that is very key for me. I don't like waiting 1 week, 2
> weeks, 3 weeks, etc. for something I can do right now.
>
> So, really, there are two primary advantages to making PCBs at home;
> Economics and Instant gratification :-)
>
> Chris
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-27 by Richard

What happens when you decide to go from Prototypes to Production, and all your ExpressPCB files are worthless?

These can be sent to any other board house nor can they be imported into any other CAD Program, can they?

I love ExpressPCB but I'm trying to get away from it because I just had some serious backfires when going to production.


----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Phil Mattison
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:56 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others


Actually I've been debating whether to set up a quick PCB prototype
fabrication outfit myself. I guess the iron-on toner technique works pretty
well? Actually I have a UV exposure box so I probably could use positive
resist pre-coated boards easier. I already have a small milling machine. My
biggest hesitation has been what software to use for layout. It's so easy
with ExpressPCB I've gotten spoiled. But you're right, it is expensive. I
also would need a high-speed spindle.

Any software/spindle recommendations?
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

----- Original Message -----
From: lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and
others

> I agree with what Dave stated. The economics just are not there for
> me. I can buy a bunch of PCB stock on Ebay very cheap. I can print
> a lot of layouts on a laser printer very cheap. The Ferric chloride
> for etching is cheap, the ironing process is cheap, drilling the
> holes is cheap. All of the above is also pretty easy once you get
> the hang of it - much easier than doing your own PCB design and
> electronics design which brings me to the real reason why!!!
>
> Being green about electronics, most of my designs do not work first
> time out. Most of the stuff I have been designing does not lend
> itself well to breadboarding or even perf boards. So, I do the best
> I can in the design, layout the circuit, and make the PCBs myself.
> If things go as usual, I may make the same board 3 or 4 times in one
> day and that is very key for me. I don't like waiting 1 week, 2
> weeks, 3 weeks, etc. for something I can do right now.
>
> So, really, there are two primary advantages to making PCBs at home;
> Economics and Instant gratification :-)
>
> Chris
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-28 by Phil Mattison

As I understand it you can get gerber files from ExpressPCB for a fee, or
you can just order volume from them.
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Richard <rwskinner@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and
others


> What happens when you decide to go from Prototypes to Production, and all
your ExpressPCB files are worthless?
>
> These can be sent to any other board house nor can they be imported into
any other CAD Program, can they?
>
> I love ExpressPCB but I'm trying to get away from it because I just had
some serious backfires when going to production.
>

Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-28 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Mattison" <mattison20@...>
wrote:
>
> As I understand it you can get gerber files from ExpressPCB for a
fee, or
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> you can just order volume from them.

When I last looked, you MUST buy their Proto service. about $200.00.
having had mini-boards does not count.

The, after you have bougth their proto service, you can buy the
Gerbers for another $30.00 or so.

It is a possible route.

Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-28 by Herbert E. Plett

>
> > There are no artificial size restrictions on gEDA or KiCAD.
>
> I calculated once that PCB could do a board that was 0.25 miles to a
> side, at 0.000010" resolution.
>

well, for now I couldn't etch this board, no matter the resolution... :)

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Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-29 by teknochaman

Hi,

I'm almost newbie to PCB but not to offset
printing/film/artwork etc., I wonder if it's possible
(and legal) to capture any screen of own's expressPCB
artwork and redirecting it to a desktop printer ?
(inkjet, laser, etc.)

Don't need gerber files nor have a budget for a PCB
maker firm.

Hope your hints.

Samuel


----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Richard <rwskinner@ccwip. net>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old
timer to this hobby and
others

> What happens when you decide to go from Prototypes
to Production, and all
your ExpressPCB files are worthless?
>
> These can be sent to any other board house nor can
they be imported into
any other CAD Program, can they?
>





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Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-29 by Dave Mucha

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, teknochaman <teknochaman@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm almost newbie to PCB but not to offset
> printing/film/artwork etc., I wonder if it's possible
> (and legal) to capture any screen of own's expressPCB
> artwork and redirecting it to a desktop printer ?
> (inkjet, laser, etc.)
>
> Don't need gerber files nor have a budget for a PCB
> maker firm.
>
> Hope your hints.
>
> Samuel


The problem is that of the work involved.

if your board is small, you can get a free demo of WinQCAD and that
will print 1:1 for you.

you can get free CAD programs and do the same thing.

As for Express, you can do a screen print, then past it onto PAINT,
change the colors to black and white, fill in the holes in the lines,
and remove the extra stuff. Make lines larger, etc.

Then copy that to some other program and print it to scale. getting
it to scale is the hard part. All the rest is just time consuming.

My suggestion is to print it and paste it on a foam board, then place
our chips into the foam. That way, you can see if everything will fit
properly.

Dave



Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-29 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:08:22 +0100, teknochaman <teknochaman@...>
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hi,
> I'm almost newbie to PCB but not to offset
> printing/film/artwork etc., I wonder if it's possible
> (and legal) to capture any screen of own's expressPCB
> artwork and redirecting it to a desktop printer ?
> (inkjet, laser, etc.)
> Don't need gerber files nor have a budget for a PCB
> maker firm.
> Hope your hints.
> Samuel

I was going to suggest careful reading of the license agreement but
curiosity drove me to read it myself, and i couldn't find any!

Neither on the web page, nor during install or in the software help or
install directory i could find any sort of license agreement detailing
what i can and can't do.

IMO the failure to produce such an agreement (i should not be able to miss
it) is enough to identify this software as uselessly limited.

You could ask them, but i expect they'll say you can't.
Until i am informed of the opposite i will continue to refuse producing
any boards obviously coming from this software.

I would just bin the crap and use a software that isn't so restrictive.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-29 by AnaLog Services, Inc.

If it is your own creation, I believe it is arguable that using an image
from the software you created it on falls within the fair use doctrine, if
not some other more basic principle at common law. To argue otherwise would
be to suggest that producers of word processing software could keep you from
publishing a book you wrote using their software, an obvious absurdity. The
have an obvious reason for giving the software away for free, but then so
does M$ for giving away IE for instance; nobody would argue it improper to
go to a competitors website with M$ software, would they?

I think the later versions of Express PCB will let you do black 1:1
reproductions that would be suitable for home PCB production purposes. I
would have to check to be sure, though.

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and
others


> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:08:22 +0100, teknochaman <teknochaman@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I'm almost newbie to PCB but not to offset
>> printing/film/artwork etc., I wonder if it's possible
>> (and legal) to capture any screen of own's expressPCB
>> artwork and redirecting it to a desktop printer ?
>> (inkjet, laser, etc.)
>> Don't need gerber files nor have a budget for a PCB
>> maker firm.
>> Hope your hints.
>> Samuel
>
> I was going to suggest careful reading of the license agreement but
> curiosity drove me to read it myself, and i couldn't find any!
>
> Neither on the web page, nor during install or in the software help or
> install directory i could find any sort of license agreement detailing
> what i can and can't do.
>
> IMO the failure to produce such an agreement (i should not be able to miss
> it) is enough to identify this software as uselessly limited.
>
> You could ask them, but i expect they'll say you can't.
> Until i am informed of the opposite i will continue to refuse producing
> any boards obviously coming from this software.
>
> I would just bin the crap and use a software that isn't so restrictive.
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2006-12-30 by Leon

----- Original Message -----
From: teknochaman
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and
others


Hi,

I'm almost newbie to PCB but not to offset
printing/film/artwork etc., I wonder if it's possible
(and legal) to capture any screen of own's expressPCB
artwork and redirecting it to a desktop printer ?
(inkjet, laser, etc.)

Don't need gerber files nor have a budget for a PCB
maker firm.

-------------------------------------------


I think I've heard of fellow radio amateurs doing something like that. It
was probably on the QRP-L forum.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie to list, old timer to this hobby and others

2007-01-04 by Massimo De Marchi

Hi,
I use freepcb www.freepcb.org
As a schematic editor I use tinycad http://tinycad.sourceforge.net ,
which exports a freepcb ready netlist.
Both are free. No autorouting, while there is an ongoing project. The
forums are not as active as kicad's.
On the other hand the learning curve is smoother..

Massimo



Russ ha scritto:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
> Question for the list - what's a good or great but free circuit
> drawing program for Windows (XP down to 3.11) or DOS out there I can
> download? Linux of course is another option if it has an x86 version
> or even a Power PC version as I have an old AIX based IBM server I
> can use too. I'm sure there are others for older non-Intel platforms
> such as Commodore (I see someone used a PET for a CNC drill, nice) or
> Apple or TRS-DOS etc but even having a wide array of old machines I
> can use (I have IBMs back to the original PC and non-IBM items back
> to the Commodores, Osbornes, etc) I'd prefer to leave the oldies
> aside for museum pieces more or less and concentrate on machines like
> my dual PIII-1ghz HP X-class machine I bought from GM's Corvette
> plant down here in Ky.
>
> Any help is appreciated although I will be dead for the most part
> until I get into some free time otherwise I'll lurk and answer if I
> can help.
>
> Russ Blakeman
> Clarkson, KY (originally from Chicago)
>
> __.