Homebrew PCBs

It is possible to produce a $150 PCBMill.(Just the machine minus
the motors,drivers and software) You build it out of MDF and use
aluminum rails with Delrin slides. All parts done production style.
Each day you do a few parts. You will need to build at least 50
machines at once in order to get bulk discounts on the parts. The
problem I found is the shipping cost for each will be the same as the
profit you make on each machine. If a machine gets lost or broken you
are screwed. If you are lucky you can pay yourself 50 cents per hour
after they are sold.

    As I was selling off my proto machines I was shocked at the
shipping prices. Lets say a 2'X 4' piece of MDF costs $12. When you
turn it into a machine it cost $30 to ship minus packing material and
box. Forget about the packing and shipping time. I did better selling
the parts off the machine and throwing the MDF in the garbage.

>If you are lucky you can pay yourself 50 cents per hour
>after they are sold.

Many truly feel they can build a better or more attractive mousetrap so 
they start off with good intentions and a lot of sweat only to realize 
what you've just said. They then resort to unscrupulous methods in 
order to recoup their losses and continue upon a path leading 
to "hell". We've seen this many times with CNC offerings that are just 
too good to be true.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

derekhawkins,
             The real kick in the teeth come from the "Internet
Experts" who start knocking your attempts. When I started Home Depot
sold bolts for 5 cents. Now they are 15 cents. MDF went from $9 for
a 2' X 4' to over $12. Threaded rod and gas pipe became real crap when
it started coming from China. All my local hardwarestores closed. The
one across from my house was there for 30 years. Then it closed after
I started using it. The price of the MDF keeps going up along with the
price of shipping. The grey paint also went up. Just as you got the
numbers crunched things change bigtime. A dinky machine would cost
$300 to produce in the US. CheapCNC bailed after selling a few
machines made out of HDPE for over 1K each. I made some patterns to
layout Brute parts. I made them out of old CD drives. As I started
marking out hole locations I got flashbacks of my first sweatshop job.
That was that! There is a guy selling an all metal CNC mill for $600
and a wooden kit is also available from another guy. 

                                       John  







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >If you are lucky you can pay yourself 50 cents per hour
> >after they are sold.
> 
> Many truly feel they can build a better or more attractive mousetrap so 
> they start off with good intentions and a lot of sweat only to realize 
> what you've just said. They then resort to unscrupulous methods in 
> order to recoup their losses and continue upon a path leading 
> to "hell". We've seen this many times with CNC offerings that are just 
> too good to be true.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
>

>The real kick in the teeth come from the "Internet
>Experts" who start knocking your attempts. 

The only attempts I've knocked are those involving complete machines 
that end with orders placed with full or down payments and no 
subsequent deliveries (aka stealing).

>CheapCNC bailed after selling a few machines made out of HDPE for 
>over 1K each.

I think the real problem with the sub 1K CNC market is that there is 
none. The volumes are just not there, otherwise, these things would 
be made in China and sold here in the US and elsewhere like just 
about everything else worth making some money on these days. You'll 
see a lot of lip service given to the idea here but the truth is that 
DIY oriented people are the tightest wads under the sun (myself 
included).

>There is a guy selling an all metal CNC mill for $600

Who is this if you don't mind me asking?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

derekhawkins,

             The $600 metal machine can be found at:

http://www.widgitmaster.com/

                                         John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >The real kick in the teeth come from the "Internet
> >Experts" who start knocking your attempts. 
> 
> The only attempts I've knocked are those involving complete machines 
> that end with orders placed with full or down payments and no 
> subsequent deliveries (aka stealing).
> 
> >CheapCNC bailed after selling a few machines made out of HDPE for 
> >over 1K each.
> 
> I think the real problem with the sub 1K CNC market is that there is 
> none. The volumes are just not there, otherwise, these things would 
> be made in China and sold here in the US and elsewhere like just 
> about everything else worth making some money on these days. You'll 
> see a lot of lip service given to the idea here but the truth is that 
> DIY oriented people are the tightest wads under the sun (myself 
> included).
> 
> >There is a guy selling an all metal CNC mill for $600
> 
> Who is this if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
>

>The $600 metal machine can be found at:

>http://www.widgitmaster.com/

Thanks!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

They are selling very well even though there is no market! There
are others out there. The problem is these guys don't know how to
index their website. They are also usually attacked by people who only
spout. I would give you more links but lets leave that to the Internet
Experts that hang here.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >The $600 metal machine can be found at:
> 
> >http://www.widgitmaster.com/
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
>

>They are selling very well even though there is no market! 

Maybe I should get one while the going's good and before they examine 
their P&L statements? Just kidding, the X-Y travel is too little. 
Furthermore, I'm looking to CNC something closer to a heavier duty 
milling machine. Nevertheless, just about anything CNC interests me 
these days.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

The next jump up in price is K2.    Machines in the $800 range
came and left several times. One guy was selling a machine with one
rail that was floating due to lack of real tooling. I should have kept
better notes.

K2
http://www.k2cnc.com/

Then there was Liberty

http://www.libertycnc.com/





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >They are selling very well even though there is no market! 
> 
> Maybe I should get one while the going's good and before they examine 
> their P&L statements? Just kidding, the X-Y travel is too little. 
> Furthermore, I'm looking to CNC something closer to a heavier duty 
> milling machine. Nevertheless, just about anything CNC interests me 
> these days.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
>

That's not a bad looking machine for the money.  Of course, I don't know enough about them to say that with factual information.  It just looks nice.

Opinions?


  >The $600 metal machine can be found at:

  >http://www.widgitmaster.com/

  Thanks!

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
  >



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>The next jump up in price is K2. Machines in the $800 range
>came and left several times. 

Been checking the K2 site for sometime now. Their stuff really looks 
professional and the website below seems to be using one of their 
machines for pick & place and solder paste dispensing;

http://www.ntscope.com/autodispensers.html

If they offered the 1414 for $800.00 or so I might bite since the table 
top and shipping/handling is another $350.00.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

>Opinions?

Not bad for $600.00. Not really a "handsome" machine but a good starter 
setup IMO. The only obvious shortcomings I see would be the X-Y travel 
and the Delrin nuts don't seem to have any form of wear compensation. 
How long is zero backlash going to last? Also, the precision of the 
acme screws is not known. Compare with the Kerk screws and nuts used in 
the lower end K2 machines. But then you're talking more than twice the 
price.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rwskinner@...> wrote:
>

If you take a block of Delrin twice the thickness of the leadscrew
and tap it with a quality tap you get a nut with no backlash. You must
keep the leadscrew clean and oiled. Backlash becomes laughable because
the machine uses a Dremel. If you shim the bearing of the Dremel
between the case and bearing you will have a .003 or better spindle.
There is some play in the bearing of the Dremel and some runout 
depending on how you tighten the collet. The Porter Cable trim Router
has .006 of runout as does the Foredom Number 30 handtool. When
looking to buy a machine you must know what you want it for. Alot of
people want a perfect machine but they have no use for it. One machine
can't do it all either.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >Opinions?
> 
> Not bad for $600.00. Not really a "handsome" machine but a good starter 
> setup IMO. The only obvious shortcomings I see would be the X-Y travel 
> and the Delrin nuts don't seem to have any form of wear compensation. 
> How long is zero backlash going to last? Also, the precision of the 
> acme screws is not known. Compare with the Kerk screws and nuts used in 
> the lower end K2 machines. But then you're talking more than twice the 
> price.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rwskinner@> wrote:
> >
>

Yes, the short 4-1/2 Y axis is a killer.

 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not bad for the money. But, when you consider what isn't there, it 
isn't exactly cheap either.  I suspect by the time you add in 
everything else, you would be in the price range of this machine

http://www.romaxxcnc.com/

As you can see on this one, it is a well designed and finished 
product.  Just another option for you guys that want a quality CNC 
router and don't have the: time, tools, machines, knowledge or 
materials to scratch build something.

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:

>
> derekhawkins,
> 
>              The $600 metal machine can be found at:
> 
> http://www.widgitmaster.com/
> 
>                                          John
>

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:59:33 +0100, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> http://www.romaxxcnc.com/
> As you can see on this one, it is a well designed and finished
> product.  Just another option for you guys that want a quality CNC
> router and don't have the: time, tools, machines, knowledge or
> materials to scratch build something.
> Chris


Does this one use ball races for linear rails?

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> derekhawkins,
> 
>              The $600 metal machine can be found at:
> 
> http://www.widgitmaster.com/
> 
>                                          John


That is only the frame.  no motors, no electronics, no power supply,
no stepper drivers and no switches.

A nice looking unit for sure, but not the open-the-box-and-run $600.00
unit.

I do wish I had such options when I got started in this hobby !

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> derekhawkins,
>              The real kick in the teeth come from the "Internet
> Experts" who start knocking your attempts. 

Another knock in the teeth comes from experts discussing parts as if
they were complete machines.

It can cost $5,000 for a Bridgeport CNC conversion kit.  Makes the
cheap Bridgeport look really cheap.

also, the $150 number is easy to toss around, but actually getting a
running machine will cost WAY over that.  I've seen people tally the
final costs at over $700 for one of those plans only machines.

Many of us can toss together a CNC machine from surplus in our parts
bins. but, that stuff still came at a price.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Not bad for the money. But, when you consider what isn't there, it 
> isn't exactly cheap either.  I suspect by the time you add in 
> everything else, you would be in the price range of this machine
> 
> http://www.romaxxcnc.com/
> 
> As you can see on this one, it is a well designed and finished 
> product.  Just another option for you guys that want a quality CNC 
> router and don't have the: time, tools, machines, knowledge or 
> materials to scratch build something.
> 
> Chris


12 x 19 x 3, that is a whole lot more machine, but at a whole lot more
money.

As you know, John H and I, (Not John K) are putting together a
beginners machine.   I like the term 'starter' but it does sound a
little to much like a sports term.   Still looking for a good name.
(suggestions?)

our unit is designed to the most optimum use of materials so you are
getting more economy by not paying for scrap that is never used.

at 7 x 8 x 1-1/2" it is not the killer machine, but is is big enough
for real work.  

Also, as EVERYONE who has ever built a machine knows, once you have a
machine, making all the bits and parts is 100 times easier and 1,000
times more accurate.   I know quite a few guys who built John K's
machines who then used them to make the machine of their own design. 
and usually in metal, for metal.

Our target price is less than the $600.00 for that nice metal unit,
but our unit comes with everything and requires that the user just
mount the motors and plug it in.

We are darn close to shipping the first one right now.

And, unlike the bad publicity we all know about, we are not accepting
orders.  We are accepting reservations.  We will not accept a payment
unless the unit is ready to ship.  

There is a LOT of competition in the market and there is a LOT of
arm-chair engineers who 'just know' how to do things.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >Opinions?
> 
> Not bad for $600.00. Not really a "handsome" machine but a good starter 
> setup IMO. The only obvious shortcomings I see would be the X-Y travel 
> and the Delrin nuts don't seem to have any form of wear compensation. 
> How long is zero backlash going to last?

This is a question and a problem.  Considder the nut might last about
365 hours of use.  so, one has to spend some $50 ?? per year for a
wear item.  Kind of like changing the oil.

Compare that to a set of 3 Kerk screws for closer to $350.00 
somewhere there is a tradeoff.

If you want a low end machine, don't bother with any single part that
costs over $100.00  it is useless to put on a high quality screw when
you don't have ball slides on the rails.  and it would be silly to put
ball slides on the rails if you are not using a very heavy frame, and
if you don't have a heavy frame, they a zero run-out spindle is not
really going to add much to the machine.  

Everything feeds on the next thing.

There is no real clasification of machines, but there should be the
logic that you cannot compare a $600 small axis aluminm frame machine
to a fully operational machine that has a 12x12 work area.  Common
Sense needs to come into play.

If you ask John K about his introductions to using threaded rod, the
'big boys' said that it could not be done. period, go away.

He has proved them wrong so many times that it is now almost the first
choice on all entry level machines.  Certainly all simple home-brew
machines.

But, once one actually uses a machine, soooo many of those objections
seem to fall by the wayside.

Dave

>but there should be the logic that you cannot compare a $600 small 
>axis aluminm frame machine to a fully operational machine that has a 
>12x12 work area. 

You're only seeing things from a designer perspective. For $1,150.00 
you get 15"X14" travel, Kerk precision acme screws, Delrin nuts with 
wear compensation and 4 linear ball bearings on each axis. Knowing what 
you're losing when you pay less and vice versa is the fundamental basis 
of an informed purchasing decision IMO. Frankly, the K2 1414 frame is 
more attractive to me probably because, as end-user, I dare to compare.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >but there should be the logic that you cannot compare a $600 small 
> >axis aluminm frame machine to a fully operational machine that has a 
> >12x12 work area. 
> 
> You're only seeing things from a designer perspective. 

I don't think so.  I designed a small, er, tiny CNC machine for
drilling and etching PCB's based on the board side of the Eagle demo
software.  The guy didn't want anything more than that, and it was not
really a price issue.

There are econo-cars, mini-vans and pick-up trucks.  each has it's
target audence.

Once you step up to a metal machine, you almost need to look at
Gecko's and NEMA023 steppers with 300 oz-in or better.

That tosses you up to almost $1,000 for the electronics side of things.

My point is that some of us drive econo-cars, some need pick-up trucks.

there is a HUGE market for smaller machines that do wax or balsa or
foam.   But the voices of the guys who hold the torch for cutting
metal are the ones we see on these lists the most.

Dave

So as you can see I provided a link and people start cutting into
the machine. There have been and there will contine to be PCBMill
machines out there. You just have to look for them. Paul Jones had one
until his health started failing. 

Basic Business:

      You have to add up the price of the parts and your time and
multiply by three or four. This sets the price. That amount will pay
for tooling,advertizing and support. The guys who used to argue this
with me are all gone!!!  If you make the $600 WidgetMaster wider you
will have to change the Y-rails thickness-bearings and bed size. The
machine will jump up in price just for another inch. Looking at the
machine I can see he has done his homework. He has enough profit to
help pay for future machine development. Remember!!! He still has to
pay off the machines and tooling he already has or make enough money
to maintain them. Even if he already owned them they still need to be
maintained. How many machines does he have to sell just to pay for
what he has invested so far?

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 06:06:31 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>  
wrote:

>
> My point is that some of us drive econo-cars, some need pick-up trucks.


And some drive pick-up trucks, and never even open the tailgate.

It is easy to buy/make something way above requirements.

ST

Well, There is a bottom line here. Dave and I are making the
machine regardless of whether anyone thinks it's a bad idea
or not. If it's a futile attempt, we're doing it anyway. If
it's a total waste of time, effort, and money.. Again, we're
still going to try.

It's entirely possible that we'll fail, be made fun of, and
have no support at all from the CNC community. That's part
of it and we thoroughly understand that.

It's quite the challenge to make one machine for most. Imagine
the challenge we've decided to take on.

We're not asking any and all to buy a cheap machine made of
MDF. It's probably of no use at all for many/most people on
this list.

It has been pointed out before, that many people never get
around to actually building Any machine. They have their
motors and controllers, but it's a different thing to sift
through all the information that's out there on making a
working tool. If those people had ANY machine, they'd be 
another step ahead.

Our machine has been in the works for over a year. It's
nothing spectacular or particularly innovative. We think
it's a good, useful, design and it'll stand or fall on it's
own.

We aren't thinking that we're starting a big internet business.
We're just two guys trying to have fun doing something we like.

There's NOT "big bucks" to be made. We know that.

We DO greatly appreciate support of any kind.

Thanks,
John Hansford




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 06:06:31 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > My point is that some of us drive econo-cars, some need pick-up
trucks.

> 
> 
> And some drive pick-up trucks, and never even open the tailgate.
> 
> It is easy to buy/make something way above requirements.
> 
> ST
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:
> 
> there is a HUGE market for smaller machines that do wax or balsa or
> foam.   But the voices of the guys who hold the torch for cutting
> metal are the ones we see on these lists the most.
> 
> Dave
>

Dave, you hit the nail directly on the head with that comment! 

Discussions about small CNC's are usually "blown off" the CNC groups 
by the metal cutters, as if it is not worth their time or effort for 
the little stuff. I've seen this happen many times over the last four 
years.

It's always the "Tim The Toolman" syndrome -- More Power! I did get a 
huge chuckle when the discusion on one forum was about the number of 
turns per inch a wire needed to be most efficient.

You can find dozens, if not humndreds  of sites that describe 
homebrewers' effort to build a small "starter" CNC. The simply and 
inexpensively do the job for the buildeers, drilling pcb's, cutting 
wax, balsa, and plastic.

The market is definitely there.

Myc

>The guy didn't want anything more than that, and it was not
>really a price issue.

The guy asked for opinions and I gave mine, whereupon you jumped in 
saying that my comparison to the next best thing was illogical or some 
such nonsense. End of story.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:

derekhawkins,
             You can't campare a $600 PCBMill to a larger router. The
large router does not have the accuracy to mill boards. Even using the
same rails and linear bearings. As the parts of the machine get longer
the play in the bearings gets amplified. There are large routers that
are as accurate as the $600 PCBMill but they cost 6K or more.


       It would be like comparing a $40 Dremel Drillpress to a large
$300 drill press. Try putting a number 80 drill bit in the $300 drill
press. The chuck will need an adapter just the hold the bit. In most
cases the runout will cause the bit to snap.

                                            John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >The guy didn't want anything more than that, and it was not
> >really a price issue.
> 
> The guy asked for opinions and I gave mine, whereupon you jumped in 
> saying that my comparison to the next best thing was illogical or some 
> such nonsense. End of story.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@> 
> wrote:
>

>You can't campare a $600 PCBMill to a larger router. 

I can. Guess that makes me special.

>The large router does not have the accuracy to mill boards.

Nonsense again. Whatever, I have no interest whatsoever in milling PCBs.

>As the parts of the machine get longer the play in the bearings gets 
>amplified.

There are specifications.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

> Nonsense again. Whatever, I have no interest whatsoever in milling PCBs.

 Then maybe you should not reply to a thread that says 

      "Selling $150 PCBMill"

The rest of us are talking about Milling and or Drilling PCBoard
mills. Maybe you should join the CAD_CAM_DRO guys. They like to compare
apple to oranges and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

>Then maybe you should not reply to a thread that says
>"Selling $150 PCBMill"

> The rest of us are talking about Milling and or Drilling PCBoard
> mills. 

Geez, I wonder who made this post in this thread;

===================================================================
Re: Selling $150 PCBMill 


The next jump up in price is K2. Machines in the $800 range
came and left several times. One guy was selling a machine with one
rail that was floating due to lack of real tooling. I should have kept
better notes.

K2
http://www.k2cnc.com/

Then there was Liberty

http://www.libertycnc.com/
=================================================================

I was comparing the $600.00 machine to the cheapest K2 frame. What's 
wrong in comparing with the "next jump in price"? Seems only natural 
to me. Cranky, you argue poorly, a complete waste of time.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

I was answering someones question. Since I started this thread I
have my reasons to point out that there are machines out there that
people are asking for. If given the chance I can explain why you
should buy one over the other. The $600 one is for PCBMilling and
small projects requiring accuracy.


  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >Then maybe you should not reply to a thread that says
> >"Selling $150 PCBMill"
> 
> > The rest of us are talking about Milling and or Drilling PCBoard
> > mills. 
> 
> Geez, I wonder who made this post in this thread;
> 
> ===================================================================
> Re: Selling $150 PCBMill 
> 
> 
> The next jump up in price is K2. Machines in the $800 range
> came and left several times. One guy was selling a machine with one
> rail that was floating due to lack of real tooling. I should have kept
> better notes.
> 
> K2
> http://www.k2cnc.com/
> 
> Then there was Liberty
> 
> http://www.libertycnc.com/
> =================================================================
> 
> I was comparing the $600.00 machine to the cheapest K2 frame. What's 
> wrong in comparing with the "next jump in price"? Seems only natural 
> to me. Cranky, you argue poorly, a complete waste of time.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >You can't campare a $600 PCBMill to a larger router. 
> 
> I can. Guess that makes me special.
> 

But, you are special. : )

Most of us tailor our purchases with prices that seem closer to our
hobby needs.

If you can afford a $1,500 or $2,000 machine with a 12x12 work area
and you only ever expect to do 3x4 boards, then we can assume you have
a lot of room in your shop, and enough extra $$$ to be able to afford
some pretty nice toys !

Dave

John and Dave,

You guys have been around these groups for a long time now, you have 
a feel for what's what, what people want, what people expect, and 
what your own abilities are.  Going into something like this the way 
you just stated is about the best possible avenue.  Have fun with 
it, if it goes somewhere, cool, if not, cool, hopefully you had fun 
along the way.  Learn from the others that have invested thousands 
of dollars, quit their jobs, then come back to complain when it went 
about as good as it could - pretty bad.

Whatever you do, just have fun with it. It will be your biggest 
reward.  I wish you all the success that you expect from this 
venture!  Now darn it, show us your machine :-))))))))

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Hansford" <kz1927@...> 
wrote:

>
> Well, There is a bottom line here. Dave and I are making the
> machine regardless of whether anyone thinks it's a bad idea
> or not. If it's a futile attempt, we're doing it anyway. If
> it's a total waste of time, effort, and money.. Again, we're
> still going to try.
> 
> It's entirely possible that we'll fail, be made fun of, and
> have no support at all from the CNC community. That's part
> of it and we thoroughly understand that.
> 
> It's quite the challenge to make one machine for most. Imagine
> the challenge we've decided to take on.
> 
> We're not asking any and all to buy a cheap machine made of
> MDF. It's probably of no use at all for many/most people on
> this list.
> 
> It has been pointed out before, that many people never get
> around to actually building Any machine. They have their
> motors and controllers, but it's a different thing to sift
> through all the information that's out there on making a
> working tool. If those people had ANY machine, they'd be 
> another step ahead.
> 
> Our machine has been in the works for over a year. It's
> nothing spectacular or particularly innovative. We think
> it's a good, useful, design and it'll stand or fall on it's
> own.
> 
> We aren't thinking that we're starting a big internet business.
> We're just two guys trying to have fun doing something we like.
> 
> There's NOT "big bucks" to be made. We know that.
> 
> We DO greatly appreciate support of any kind.
> 
> Thanks,
> John Hansford

<snip>
> 
> It has been pointed out before, that many people never get
> around to actually building Any machine. They have their
> motors and controllers, but it's a different thing to sift
> through all the information that's out there on making a
> working tool. If those people had ANY machine, they'd be 
> another step ahead.

There is a term for the electronical guys who can make boards, but for
any number of reasons, never get to a finished machine.

The term I have seen kicked around is 'motor-spinners' people that
spend days or weeks to get one motor to spin, then realize just how
much more effort is left to do the rest of the machine.

Dave

>The term I have seen kicked around is 'motor-spinners' people that
>spend days or weeks to get one motor to spin, then realize just how
>much more effort is left to do the rest of the machine.

Careful, the "motor-spinners" may have resigned themselves to "ironing" 
their PCBs and drilling till their eyes run water. Poking fun at them 
may just harden their hearts towards anything you're offering. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 21:31:38 +0100, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> Careful, the "motor-spinners" may have resigned themselves to "ironing"
> their PCBs and drilling till their eyes run water. Poking fun at them
> may just harden their hearts towards anything you're offering.


Or they may just have realized that with the small number of PCBs they do  
it is far more time and space efficient to just hand drill them.

A CNC is not going to add much to the things i can do, the main limit is  
THP for me now.

ST

>Or they may just have realized that with the small number of PCBs 
>they do it is far more time and space efficient to just hand drill 
>them.

Whatever the reasons, looking towards this group for a significant 
amount of CNC machine sales is a bad idea IMO...Even if the $500.00 
machine was on sale for $300.00. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

I coined the phrase MOTORSPINNERS! all one word in CAPs. They used
to send me nasty Emails telling me I was wasting my time. So I coined
the phrase and started mocking them back. They only buy the best so
there is no problem with losing them as one of my customers. About
eight of the original Cad_Cam guys did buy my Brute plans. What they
were doing wrong is buying a power supply, motors,drivers and software
first. They all got into a certain CAD program until they realized
they need to know how to draw. Some got as far as buying ballscrews.
They had no real plan. They would just follow the talk and buy stuff.
I recognized their Emails on Ebay as they bailed. One guy had this
really long paragraph explaning how great his parts were. The machine
was all angle iron tack welded. It looked like a hang glider. Several
of them bought Bridgports to retro. One never made it off the trailer
as it was offered again for sale.   


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> wrote:

>
> <snip>
> > 
> > It has been pointed out before, that many people never get
> > around to actually building Any machine. They have their
> > motors and controllers, but it's a different thing to sift
> > through all the information that's out there on making a
> > working tool. If those people had ANY machine, they'd be 
> > another step ahead.
> 
> There is a term for the electronical guys who can make boards, but for
> any number of reasons, never get to a finished machine.
> 
> The term I have seen kicked around is 'motor-spinners' people that
> spend days or weeks to get one motor to spin, then realize just how
> much more effort is left to do the rest of the machine.
> 
> Dave
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >Or they may just have realized that with the small number of PCBs 
> >they do it is far more time and space efficient to just hand drill 
> >them.
> 
> Whatever the reasons, looking towards this group for a significant 
> amount of CNC machine sales is a bad idea IMO...Even if the $500.00 
> machine was on sale for $300.00. 
> 


It's an $800 machine on sale for $500. : )

Dave

Chris,

Thank you very much. That's support and encouragement. Those
are fine things to have when trying something like this.

I believe that sooner or later someone will come up with a
small cheap machine and have a fair bit of success with it.
Even if it's not us, it'll be something for the next guy to
study and see what did or didn't work out.

There are lots of things these little machines will make.
Panels for electronics, enclosures, 2.5D standoffs, lamp holders,
electroplating jigs, parts holders and jigs...
An endless list of things.

We think there are lots of people who'd be very good at Using
a small machine who'd have no interest at all in how it was
made.

But it IS a thing made of MDF. You can't really make that look
like something of great value. It's likely as simple as it could
possibly be. We are using a few assembly techniques that I haven't
seen before, so it should work out very well.

Naturally, we'd like to make them look as nice as we can.
So, some pictures will be circulating pretty soon.

Thank you Chris,

John Hansford






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> John and Dave,
> 
> You guys have been around these groups for a long time now, you have 
> a feel for what's what, what people want, what people expect, and 
> what your own abilities are.  Going into something like this the way 
> you just stated is about the best possible avenue.  Have fun with 
> it, if it goes somewhere, cool, if not, cool, hopefully you had fun 
> along the way.  Learn from the others that have invested thousands 
> of dollars, quit their jobs, then come back to complain when it went 
> about as good as it could - pretty bad.
> 
> Whatever you do, just have fun with it. It will be your biggest 
> reward.  I wish you all the success that you expect from this 
> venture!  Now darn it, show us your machine :-))))))))
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Hansford" <kz1927@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Well, There is a bottom line here. Dave and I are making the
> > machine regardless of whether anyone thinks it's a bad idea
> > or not. If it's a futile attempt, we're doing it anyway. If
> > it's a total waste of time, effort, and money.. Again, we're
> > still going to try.
> > 
> > It's entirely possible that we'll fail, be made fun of, and
> > have no support at all from the CNC community. That's part
> > of it and we thoroughly understand that.
> > 
> > It's quite the challenge to make one machine for most. Imagine
> > the challenge we've decided to take on.
> > 
> > We're not asking any and all to buy a cheap machine made of
> > MDF. It's probably of no use at all for many/most people on
> > this list.
> > 
> > It has been pointed out before, that many people never get
> > around to actually building Any machine. They have their
> > motors and controllers, but it's a different thing to sift
> > through all the information that's out there on making a
> > working tool. If those people had ANY machine, they'd be 
> > another step ahead.
> > 
> > Our machine has been in the works for over a year. It's
> > nothing spectacular or particularly innovative. We think
> > it's a good, useful, design and it'll stand or fall on it's
> > own.
> > 
> > We aren't thinking that we're starting a big internet business.
> > We're just two guys trying to have fun doing something we like.
> > 
> > There's NOT "big bucks" to be made. We know that.
> > 
> > We DO greatly appreciate support of any kind.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > John Hansford
>

Well, MDF doesn't have to look bad ;-)  It's amazing what a few 
coats of shellac, prior to painting will do for the final finish :-) 
Don't know if that is part of the plan or not, but it sure can make 
the machine look MUCH better.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Hansford" <kz1927@...> 
wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> Thank you very much. That's support and encouragement. Those
> are fine things to have when trying something like this.
> 
> I believe that sooner or later someone will come up with a
> small cheap machine and have a fair bit of success with it.
> Even if it's not us, it'll be something for the next guy to
> study and see what did or didn't work out.
> 
> There are lots of things these little machines will make.
> Panels for electronics, enclosures, 2.5D standoffs, lamp holders,
> electroplating jigs, parts holders and jigs...
> An endless list of things.
> 
> We think there are lots of people who'd be very good at Using
> a small machine who'd have no interest at all in how it was
> made.
> 
> But it IS a thing made of MDF. You can't really make that look
> like something of great value. It's likely as simple as it could
> possibly be. We are using a few assembly techniques that I haven't
> seen before, so it should work out very well.
> 
> Naturally, we'd like to make them look as nice as we can.
> So, some pictures will be circulating pretty soon.
> 
> Thank you Chris,
> 
> John Hansford
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> >
> > John and Dave,
> > 
> > You guys have been around these groups for a long time now, you 
have 
> > a feel for what's what, what people want, what people expect, 
and 
> > what your own abilities are.  Going into something like this the 
way 
> > you just stated is about the best possible avenue.  Have fun 
with 
> > it, if it goes somewhere, cool, if not, cool, hopefully you had 
fun 
> > along the way.  Learn from the others that have invested 
thousands 
> > of dollars, quit their jobs, then come back to complain when it 
went 

> > about as good as it could - pretty bad.
> > 
> > Whatever you do, just have fun with it. It will be your biggest 
> > reward.  I wish you all the success that you expect from this 
> > venture!  Now darn it, show us your machine :-))))))))
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "John Hansford" <kz1927@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, There is a bottom line here. Dave and I are making the
> > > machine regardless of whether anyone thinks it's a bad idea
> > > or not. If it's a futile attempt, we're doing it anyway. If
> > > it's a total waste of time, effort, and money.. Again, we're
> > > still going to try.
> > > 
> > > It's entirely possible that we'll fail, be made fun of, and
> > > have no support at all from the CNC community. That's part
> > > of it and we thoroughly understand that.
> > > 
> > > It's quite the challenge to make one machine for most. Imagine
> > > the challenge we've decided to take on.
> > > 
> > > We're not asking any and all to buy a cheap machine made of
> > > MDF. It's probably of no use at all for many/most people on
> > > this list.
> > > 
> > > It has been pointed out before, that many people never get
> > > around to actually building Any machine. They have their
> > > motors and controllers, but it's a different thing to sift
> > > through all the information that's out there on making a
> > > working tool. If those people had ANY machine, they'd be 
> > > another step ahead.
> > > 
> > > Our machine has been in the works for over a year. It's
> > > nothing spectacular or particularly innovative. We think
> > > it's a good, useful, design and it'll stand or fall on it's
> > > own.
> > > 
> > > We aren't thinking that we're starting a big internet business.
> > > We're just two guys trying to have fun doing something we like.
> > > 
> > > There's NOT "big bucks" to be made. We know that.
> > > 
> > > We DO greatly appreciate support of any kind.
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > John Hansford
> >
>

Bravo for you, you coined the phrase and hopefully taught the other 
people here what NOT TO CALL or TO SAY to potential customers!  I do 
not believe for one minute that the same people that you 
call "MOTORSPINNERS" would have done any better had they bought your 
plans.  Their interests or priorities probably changed or perhaps 
they realized they could actually build a machine on their own 
without your plans or help.  

Now had you listened to all those "MOTORSPINNERS" that were telling 
you that you were waisting your time, perhaps you would not have 
gotten to the point you are at now, which, if I recall correctly is 
that your business failed and you are looking for a job after losing 
thousands of dollars tryng to do what many people have been telling 
you that you shouldn't do.  



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
>    I coined the phrase MOTORSPINNERS! all one word in CAPs. They 
used
> to send me nasty Emails telling me I was wasting my time. So I 
coined
> the phrase and started mocking them back. They only buy the best so
> there is no problem with losing them as one of my customers. About
> eight of the original Cad_Cam guys did buy my Brute plans. What 
they
> were doing wrong is buying a power supply, motors,drivers and 
software
> first. They all got into a certain CAD program until they realized
> they need to know how to draw. Some got as far as buying 
ballscrews.
> They had no real plan. They would just follow the talk and buy 
stuff.
> I recognized their Emails on Ebay as they bailed. One guy had this
> really long paragraph explaning how great his parts were. The 
machine
> was all angle iron tack welded. It looked like a hang glider. 
Several
> of them bought Bridgports to retro. One never made it off the 
trailer
> as it was offered again for sale.

If I had it all to do over I would have called them
MOTORSPINNERS! sooner. I failed to make selling plans a full time
business but it does bring in 7K per year free and clear after paying
Income Tax, the two half of SS and sales tax. Sometimes more! The
website gets 1,200 hits per day. $200 worth of orders came in today.
Not trying is the real failure. In 6 years only a handful of people
have gotten as far as me. I am going to keep my website as a part time
business. 7K a years for selling sheets of paper is not too shabby. 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Bravo for you, you coined the phrase and hopefully taught the other 
> people here what NOT TO CALL or TO SAY to potential customers!  I do 
> not believe for one minute that the same people that you 
> call "MOTORSPINNERS" would have done any better had they bought your 
> plans.  Their interests or priorities probably changed or perhaps 
> they realized they could actually build a machine on their own 
> without your plans or help.  
> 
> Now had you listened to all those "MOTORSPINNERS" that were telling 
> you that you were waisting your time, perhaps you would not have 
> gotten to the point you are at now, which, if I recall correctly is 
> that your business failed and you are looking for a job after losing 
> thousands of dollars tryng to do what many people have been telling 
> you that you shouldn't do.  
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
> >    I coined the phrase MOTORSPINNERS! all one word in CAPs. They 
> used
> > to send me nasty Emails telling me I was wasting my time. So I 
> coined
> > the phrase and started mocking them back. They only buy the best so
> > there is no problem with losing them as one of my customers. About
> > eight of the original Cad_Cam guys did buy my Brute plans. What 
> they
> > were doing wrong is buying a power supply, motors,drivers and 
> software
> > first. They all got into a certain CAD program until they realized
> > they need to know how to draw. Some got as far as buying 
> ballscrews.
> > They had no real plan. They would just follow the talk and buy 
> stuff.
> > I recognized their Emails on Ebay as they bailed. One guy had this
> > really long paragraph explaning how great his parts were. The 
> machine
> > was all angle iron tack welded. It looked like a hang glider. 
> Several
> > of them bought Bridgports to retro. One never made it off the 
> trailer
> > as it was offered again for sale.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Well, MDF doesn't have to look bad ;-)  It's amazing what a few 
> coats of shellac, prior to painting will do for the final finish :-) 
> Don't know if that is part of the plan or not, but it sure can make 
> the machine look MUCH better.
> 

yeah.  the $500 unit is not painted.

the $800 one is.  the $800 one will even have the buyers name engraved
in the table.  :)   (hey, ya gotta offer SOMETHING for that other $300!)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Bravo for you, you coined the phrase and hopefully taught the other 
> people here what NOT TO CALL or TO SAY to potential customers!  I do 
> not believe for one minute that the same people that you 
> call "MOTORSPINNERS" would have done any better had they bought your 
> plans.  Their interests or priorities probably changed or perhaps 
> they realized they could actually build a machine on their own 
> without your plans or help.  

um... John H and I have been kicking around some product names.

Anybody mind if we call the simple unit the MotorSpinners-CNC ?

Maybe even start a Yahoo-group for that ?

Heck, we could even get T-Shirts !

Dave
(oh, and hats too)

<snip> The website gets 1,200 hits per day. 
> $200 worth of orders came in today.

gosh, sounds like the low end and home-brew market is all dried up.

Darn, wish I knew it was so bad before we got this far.

Dave

Dave,
      A MOTORSPINNERS! machine is a 60volt 40amp supply and three
servos drives with motors. Don't forget the tape on the ends of the
motor shafts. You need a real name. Something like PCB-Wizard.

                                             John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> >
> > Bravo for you, you coined the phrase and hopefully taught the other 
> > people here what NOT TO CALL or TO SAY to potential customers!  I do 
> > not believe for one minute that the same people that you 
> > call "MOTORSPINNERS" would have done any better had they bought your 
> > plans.  Their interests or priorities probably changed or perhaps 
> > they realized they could actually build a machine on their own 
> > without your plans or help.  
> 
> um... John H and I have been kicking around some product names.
> 
> Anybody mind if we call the simple unit the MotorSpinners-CNC ?
> 
> Maybe even start a Yahoo-group for that ?
> 
> Heck, we could even get T-Shirts !
> 
> Dave
> (oh, and hats too)
>

$200 minus shipping and handling. LOL  


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> wrote:

>
> <snip> The website gets 1,200 hits per day. 
> > $200 worth of orders came in today.
> 
> gosh, sounds like the low end and home-brew market is all dried up.
> 
> Darn, wish I knew it was so bad before we got this far.
> 
> Dave
>

>  Anybody mind if we call the simple unit the MotorSpinners-CNC ?
>
>  Maybe even start a Yahoo-group for that ?
>
>  Heck, we could even get T-Shirts !
>
>  Dave
>  (oh, and hats too)
>

And then use it to engrave keyrings.............

Go for it guys!

I'm behind anyone that wants to build anything, I think I would like
to mill/cut/grind my simple pcbs save using acids etc.

Hell I've not even graduated to motor spinner, I cant work out why I
need to build a printer port breakout box, I mean what dark age is
this that you need something even called a breakout box ?

Why is none of these things USB with pics etc?

The more I look at these plans and designs and online resources I keep
getting a mental image of a cooter from dukes of hazard building one,
with the soldering being done by Mr T.

Innovation these things are not.



Lez

There are USB CNC controllers and you don't need a breakout board
for Parallel port units. 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> >  Anybody mind if we call the simple unit the MotorSpinners-CNC ?
> >
> >  Maybe even start a Yahoo-group for that ?
> >
> >  Heck, we could even get T-Shirts !
> >
> >  Dave
> >  (oh, and hats too)
> >
> 
> And then use it to engrave keyrings.............
> 
> Go for it guys!
> 
> I'm behind anyone that wants to build anything, I think I would like
> to mill/cut/grind my simple pcbs save using acids etc.
> 
> Hell I've not even graduated to motor spinner, I cant work out why I
> need to build a printer port breakout box, I mean what dark age is
> this that you need something even called a breakout box ?
> 
> Why is none of these things USB with pics etc?
> 
> The more I look at these plans and designs and online resources I keep
> getting a mental image of a cooter from dukes of hazard building one,
> with the soldering being done by Mr T.
> 
> Innovation these things are not.
> 
> 
> 
> Lez
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> >  Anybody mind if we call the simple unit the MotorSpinners-CNC ?
> >
> >  Maybe even start a Yahoo-group for that ?
> >
> >  Heck, we could even get T-Shirts !
> >
> >  Dave
> >  (oh, and hats too)
> >
> 
> And then use it to engrave keyrings.............
> 
> Go for it guys!
> 
> I'm behind anyone that wants to build anything, I think I would like
> to mill/cut/grind my simple pcbs save using acids etc.
> 
> Hell I've not even graduated to motor spinner, I cant work out why I
> need to build a printer port breakout box, I mean what dark age is
> this that you need something even called a breakout box ?
> 
> Why is none of these things USB with pics etc?
> 
> The more I look at these plans and designs and online resources I keep
> getting a mental image of a cooter from dukes of hazard building one,
> with the soldering being done by Mr T.
> 
> Innovation these things are not.
> 
> 
> 
> Lez


Well Lez, it's more like the path of least resistance.

Since you lay out your schematic and then do a parts layout, then run
the autorouter, then tweek the traces for what you like, you wind up
with a computer file.

That file needs to be converted to a file that can be used by a
machine to cut with.

So, now you wind up with a text file, called G-code.

You need to download that into your controller.  The controller will
read each line and then send out pulses and wait for inputs like
keyboard inputs to tell it which point to use and how fast to go and
how to jog and such.

It also needs to see the end switches and if you are using encoders,
it needs to see the encoder feedback (I think)

so, having a keyboard input (USB ?) and then 6 switch inputs, 6 high
speed outputs and maybe 4 or so low speed outputs, you can easily see
the size PIC to use.

It would need to download from the PC, so a USB ThumbDrive would be
good, or if your unit were small, you could just move it to the PC to
download the files directly.

I guess you would need to program the PIC to receive the file, then
output the pulses and read the keyboard and all that.  Pretty easy if
you are any good with a PIC, no ?

Of course, for those of us who are not good at programming, we just
take a db25 cable, run that to a pcb board and 'break-out' the lines
to screw terminals.  then connect the motors and switches and stuff to
that.

Nothing nearly as slick as your PIC version, and since many of us use
a Pentium 233 or so, out investment of time is more like picking stuff
out of the trash.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> >  Anybody mind if we call the simple unit the MotorSpinners-CNC ?
> >
> >  Maybe even start a Yahoo-group for that ?
> >
> >  Heck, we could even get T-Shirts !
> >
> >  Dave
> >  (oh, and hats too)
> >
> 
> And then use it to engrave keyrings.............
> 
> Go for it guys!
> 

Hats ??


http://www.barrow.k12.ga.us/kes/Media/db_spinner_hat_4c1.jpg

or

http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/535full.jpg

Anybody got an idea for a LOGO ?

Dave

> Hell I've not even graduated to motor spinner, I cant work out why I
> need to build a printer port breakout box, I mean what dark age is
> this that you need something even called a breakout box ?
>
> Why is none of these things USB with pics etc?
>
> The more I look at these plans and designs and online resources I keep
> getting a mental image of a cooter from dukes of hazard building one,
> with the soldering being done by Mr T.

Excellent point. (I got a good laugh from this). I suspect the reason these
things don't yet look like Fisher-Price toys is the market isn't big enough.
But give it time. Look at RC model aircraft. When I was a kid you had to
build your own planes. It was a hobby. Now they're built by Chinese slave
labor. Now you just buy-em and fly-em. Now they're toys. Desktop CNC is
still a hobby.
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

>  > The more I look at these plans and designs and online resources I keep
>  > getting a mental image of a cooter from dukes of hazard building one,
>  > with the soldering being done by Mr T.
>
>  Excellent point. (I got a good laugh from this). ]

Thanks, I try to criticise with humour, makes people think about it
instead of going off in a torrent of abuse.........


> I suspect the reason these
>  things don't yet look like Fisher-Price toys is the market isn't big enough.
>  But give it time. Look at RC model aircraft. When I was a kid you had to
>  build your own planes. It was a hobby.

Yes and look how much time and effort went into it and how good they
were, but thing was while all the planes were different , the building
blocks, IE servo's and radio gear were based on standard design thats
still being used to this day, simple building blocks, so simple, so
reliable, so trusted.

I see the cnc/pcb mill style item is going the same way just it seems
to be not very standard yet, more fluid, undecided, and for most of
it, old tech, very old tech.

Driving items off the printer port is, well, what we did with toy cars
on the end of cable off the back of 8 bit 1mhz machines 20 years ago,
how can we be proud of something that works that way now?


I cant believe that some hippy founded open source gnu licensed and
copy left up and sideways control structure is not around, even if its
based on something hpgl1 or LOGO it would be a standard that could be
interpreted by PIC chips / custom hardware freeing the PC up, lets
face it, no windows based PC likes to toggle its printer port bits.

Even if all it is say a 16 (hell 32) bit IO port on the end of a USB
cable, that could handle most of whats being done now and be more 'up
to date', say a 18f4550, it has PWM, IO, memory to remember where it
was last etc, store options and calibrations, and the rest of the
hardware, IE motor drive and motors, stays the same

That would be a nice simple minimal component system, would require no
expensive driver ICs etc, just H bridges for the motors etc

Sorry if I seem to be slamming all the CNC style hardware out there,
but it just seems so 'old' compared to say, a $40 printer, its like
comparing an old Chinese sky rocket to a nasa launch system.


I will get the buckets of water ready now.......


Lez

> ...lets face it, no windows based PC likes to toggle its printer port
bits.
>
> Even if all it is say a 16 (hell 32) bit IO port on the end of a USB
> cable, that could handle most of whats being done now and be more 'up
> to date', say a 18f4550, it has PWM, IO, memory to remember where it
> was last etc, store options and calibrations, and the rest of the
> hardware, IE motor drive and motors, stays the same

Can't argue with that. Actually I'm working on something like what you
suggest already, and others have done it as well. On the other hand,
real-time control on a cheap microcontroller is not as easy as it seems.
Everything has its limitations, and what is just right for one application
is overkill for another, or inadequate for something else. The
CNC/motion-control market is big but by no means homogenous.
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

>On the other hand, real-time control on a cheap microcontroller is 
>not as easy as it seems.

That's the least of the issues. The major bottleneck is in the CNC 
software. Most of it is written for open loop stepper setups using the 
tradional I/O control port of choice. This therefore influences 
hardware design. Even though there is USB ready CNC software out there, 
why build in a USB interface when most are using the parallel port. Let 
the user get an adapter instead.

What desktop CNC needs is an IBM of sorts to create a standard that 
both the hardware and software guys buy into. Somehow, a computer in 
every home (or room) is easier to visualize than a CNC setup so we're 
probably a long way from seeing anything like that.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Mattison" <mattison20@...> 
wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
>       If I had it all to do over I would have called them
> MOTORSPINNERS! sooner. I failed to make selling plans a full time
> business but it does bring in 7K per year free and clear after paying
> Income Tax, the two half of SS and sales tax. Sometimes more! The
> website gets 1,200 hits per day. $200 worth of orders came in today.

This is the sort of thing that is prone to looky-loos. The ones who
think it seems really cool and not too hard, but then it gets harder
than it seemed at first. Since they are buying it a bit at a time, it
is easy to begin, but it adds up, especially for those why try to buy
"the best" regardless of what they really are building.

We all fall for that line of non-reasoning at some time or another. I
currently fall into being a motorspinner at least to some extent. I
have a mill/drill table I bought 2 or 3 years ago that still sits with
the grease on it, and a box full of 60 and 100 oz-in steppers. Never
bought any plans, nor any electronics for them. Partly it's been lack
of money, but let's face it, a large part of it was because it's a
huge undertaking.

Me, I want a machine big enough to carve a 3D sign into a 4x8 foot
sheet of woodproduct, powerful enough to cut steel, accurate enough to
mill/drill a PCB or a 3 x 4 inch prototype, with a 12" Z axis and a
built-in CNC lathe.

What I'll probably end up with is something like either John K's
plans, or the machine Dave M and John (?) are building. Drilling PCBs,
cutting wax, foam, balsa and basswood, engraving plastic plaques.
Cutting aluminum would be nice but not absolutely necessary.

If I do build a sign cutter, it will not be highly accurate as it
won't need to be, and probably good for 3D in foam or shallow cuts in
woodproduct at best. And much smaller than 4x8 foot.

Right now I have a 7.5 x 11 inch mill table from Enco. Had it for far
too long without doing anything with it. The plan -was- to start by
adding steppers and better nuts to it. Using it as if it were manual
control, only driven by steppers instead of handwheels, and build from
there.

I got it on sale a few years ago for about $70 plus SH:
http://tinyurl.com/mp59z

However, being realistic I currently don't have any way to make the
motor mounts or anything else for it as my other tools are not really
high precision. Small drill press, wood lathe, table saw, handheld
power tools. I'm thinking I should just build a spindle over it (maybe
modify an old drill press?) and use it manually, especially if I can
buy a bare bones CNC table with the mechanics already done for low price.

> Not trying is the real failure.

Here, here! Or is it, hear, hear? This list is -built- on people
trying things that others have often vehemently discouraged.

Steve Greenfield

> Even if all it is say a 16 (hell 32) bit IO port on the end of a USB
> cable, that could handle most of whats being done now and be more 'up
> to date', say a 18f4550, it has PWM, IO, memory to remember where it
> was last etc, store options and calibrations, and the rest of the
> hardware, IE motor drive and motors, stays the same
> 
> That would be a nice simple minimal component system, would require no
> expensive driver ICs etc, just H bridges for the motors etc
> 
> Sorry if I seem to be slamming all the CNC style hardware out there,
> but it just seems so 'old' compared to say, a $40 printer, its like
> comparing an old Chinese sky rocket to a nasa launch system.
> 
> 
> I will get the buckets of water ready now.......
> 
> 
> Lez

Cold water ? for the cold wake up ?

#1) PIC's are not free.  the flip side of what you say is that for
zero dollars, I can rip apart a printer cable, pull the ends out to my
drivers and run a machine from DOS.  free.

#2) PIC's are not free. you have to have a programmer, or you have to
buy one pre-programmed.  Either way, it costs money.

#3) home-hobby guys will not spend $ on something that may or may not
work as well as the thing they are using.

A stepper can only run so fast and still be in it's power curve. Free
software can spin it that speed, or a little faster.
#4) you cannot get people to spend on something that does not offer
any performance benefits.

Why it would be a good thing ?

If you offered a complete package.  Software in the PC, then the
interface to the motor drivers.

But...this would have to work better than the free interface, or it
could not cost any premium over the existing hardware.

As I see it, the problem is selling a way of doing something that is
not useful without also buying software, and it offer no operational
benifits.

Dave

On Wednesday 27 December 2006 20:35, Steve wrote:
> I got it on sale a few years ago for about $70 plus SH:
> http://tinyurl.com/mp59z
>
> However, being realistic I currently don't have any way to make the
> motor mounts or anything else for it as my other tools are not really
> high precision. Small drill press, wood lathe, table saw, handheld
> power tools.

the motor mounts don't need all that much in the way of precision
just sketch out a bolt together one and print out drilling templates  
bolt holes allways have some clearance so you can be a little off
here and there (more than you can with a PCB anyway)
for the size of motor you're talking about you can use just about anything 
metal ,plywood or an old plastic cutting board would work

and once you have the motors mounted you'll have that extra incentive to
look for the electronics ;)

Brian
-- 
"Nemo me impune lacesset"

> Me, I want a machine big enough to carve a 3D sign into a 4x8 foot
> sheet of woodproduct, powerful enough to cut steel, accurate enough to
> mill/drill a PCB or a 3 x 4 inch prototype, with a 12" Z axis and a
> built-in CNC lathe.


Why the small table ?   4x8 foot only accomodates the standard sheets
of plywood and such.  there are quire a few materials that come in 5
foot widths and 12 foot lenghts.  a 5x12 would be more universal.

Dave

On 28/12/06, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  > Even if all it is say a 16 (hell 32) bit IO port on the end of a USB
>  > cable, that could handle most of whats being done now and be more 'up
>  > to date', say a 18f4550, it has PWM, IO, memory to remember where it
>  > was last etc, store options and calibrations, and the rest of the
>  > hardware, IE motor drive and motors, stays the same
>  >
>  > That would be a nice simple minimal component system, would require no
>  > expensive driver ICs etc, just H bridges for the motors etc
>  >
>  > Sorry if I seem to be slamming all the CNC style hardware out there,
>  > but it just seems so 'old' compared to say, a $40 printer, its like
>  > comparing an old Chinese sky rocket to a nasa launch system.
>  >
>  >
>  > I will get the buckets of water ready now.......
>  >
>  >
>  > Lez
>
>  Cold water ? for the cold wake up ?

And the flames..........

>
>  #1) PIC's are not free.  the flip side of what you say is that for
>  zero dollars, I can rip apart a printer cable, pull the ends out to my
>  drivers and run a machine from DOS.  free.

Are your drivers free? the printer cable had to be bought at some
stage, PICS, and it could be done on one big one, are not that
expensive, how much is a copy of DOS, I dont have that...


>  #2) PIC's are not free. you have to have a programmer, or you have to
>  buy one pre-programmed.  Either way, it costs money.

Thats why we have these little groups, to help each other, you know
that printer cable of yours, you could program a PIC with that, or
someone in the group could do it for a small fee, I would do it.

Probably not.....

For motorspinners
For people that are cheap
A $150.00 machine
A $500.00 machine
Avaiable at your local Best Buy
Made from junkyard scrap


http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/s42.htm

I wonder how much this one costs?

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> This is the sort of thing that is prone to looky-loos. The ones who
> think it seems really cool and not too hard, but then it gets harder
> than it seemed at first. Since they are buying it a bit at a time, it
> is easy to begin, but it adds up, especially for those why try to buy
> "the best" regardless of what they really are building.
> 
> We all fall for that line of non-reasoning at some time or another. I

Steve,
      What got me is the MOTORSPINNERS! would insult the people who
were actually building something. One guy was a "Motor Driver
Expert".(MDE)All his messages were about how great these certain
drivers were. When it came time he hooked his up wrong and blew them
out. Then there are the guys who tell you how to run your Internet
business. Their websites have less hits and their ranking is lower.
Talk is cheap! During the peak of 2003 I was answering over 100 emails
per day. That's why my website has that nasty tone. Without rules you
become swamped with people asking questions that have nothing to do
with what you are selling. Some guys would write pages about how their
wife would not let them buy anything. I would have to read through
these letters looking for questions. Some got angry at me for not
answering questions they left out. At some point I wised up! People
who tell me to be nicer don't have the same volume of customers. They
play make beleive just like some of the customers. 

                                                John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
...
> http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/s42.htm
> 
> I wonder how much this one costs?

I checked when they came out. I seem to recall about $5000 for the
least of their machines, and I also seem to recall you had to buy more
of something in order to use that $5K machine.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>       What got me is the MOTORSPINNERS! would insult the people who
> were actually building something. One guy was a "Motor Driver
> Expert".(MDE)All his messages were about how great these certain
> drivers were. When it came time he hooked his up wrong and blew them
> out. Then there are the guys who tell you how to run your Internet
> business. Their websites have less hits and their ranking is lower.
> Talk is cheap! During the peak of 2003 I was answering over 100 emails
> per day. That's why my website has that nasty tone. Without rules you
> become swamped with people asking questions that have nothing to do
> with what you are selling. Some guys would write pages about how their
> wife would not let them buy anything. I would have to read through
> these letters looking for questions. Some got angry at me for not
> answering questions they left out. At some point I wised up! People
> who tell me to be nicer don't have the same volume of customers. They
> play make beleive just like some of the customers. 

I get emails asking me how to composite photos, what software to buy,
which computer, which camera, basically they want me to train them
(for free) to be my competition. Sometimes they pretend to be writing
a paper for college. I'm not really the right person to ask, as
Polymorph hasn't exactly been a rousing success. I suck as a salesman.

When we were taking it to sci fi conventions, there were always a few
who'd stop by just to pick apart what we did and tell us how much
better they could do what we do. One guy showed up to do this at
-every- convention and started showing up at our studio on a regular
basis. I'd just let him go on and on. He never had his portfolio, for
2 years it was "in storage" after his move, but according to him he is
an expert although he was vague and confused about whether he was
using Windows, Mac, or Amiga. But he kept calling Photoshop some other
name, Photosomething although he clearly meant Photoshop. 

Then one day he asked me what modem I had in my computer. Me: Excuse
me? Him: You know, what modem do you have for Photoshot. Me: Modem for
Photoshop? I don't use Photoshop, but what does a modem have to do
with it? Him: You know, how fast a modem do you use with Photoclock?
Me: Uh, modems have nothing at all to do with using Photoshop or any
other image editor. - At that point he finally had the sense to turn
beet red and leave, and we never saw him again.

Steve Greenfield

Steve,
      I also found these guys are better talkers and writers then me!
I was always the guy in the back room doing the real work. It was a
tough leap for me to come out in the open and start a website. Other
people's website look better than mine. In the long run I sold more
plans and have more completed machines than all of them combined. Oh
yea! I just remembered! I sell a student mill/drill made out of MDF
that can be built for under $100. The problem is the booklet is so
long I have to charge $40 for it. Very few have ordered it yet several
teachers requested the project. I guess Steve, you and I need to work
in the background with a really slick guy handling the customers.


                                                John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >       What got me is the MOTORSPINNERS! would insult the people who
> > were actually building something. One guy was a "Motor Driver
> > Expert".(MDE)All his messages were about how great these certain
> > drivers were. When it came time he hooked his up wrong and blew them
> > out. Then there are the guys who tell you how to run your Internet
> > business. Their websites have less hits and their ranking is lower.
> > Talk is cheap! During the peak of 2003 I was answering over 100 emails
> > per day. That's why my website has that nasty tone. Without rules you
> > become swamped with people asking questions that have nothing to do
> > with what you are selling. Some guys would write pages about how their
> > wife would not let them buy anything. I would have to read through
> > these letters looking for questions. Some got angry at me for not
> > answering questions they left out. At some point I wised up! People
> > who tell me to be nicer don't have the same volume of customers. They
> > play make beleive just like some of the customers. 
> 
> I get emails asking me how to composite photos, what software to buy,
> which computer, which camera, basically they want me to train them
> (for free) to be my competition. Sometimes they pretend to be writing
> a paper for college. I'm not really the right person to ask, as
> Polymorph hasn't exactly been a rousing success. I suck as a salesman.
> 
> When we were taking it to sci fi conventions, there were always a few
> who'd stop by just to pick apart what we did and tell us how much
> better they could do what we do. One guy showed up to do this at
> -every- convention and started showing up at our studio on a regular
> basis. I'd just let him go on and on. He never had his portfolio, for
> 2 years it was "in storage" after his move, but according to him he is
> an expert although he was vague and confused about whether he was
> using Windows, Mac, or Amiga. But he kept calling Photoshop some other
> name, Photosomething although he clearly meant Photoshop. 
> 
> Then one day he asked me what modem I had in my computer. Me: Excuse
> me? Him: You know, what modem do you have for Photoshot. Me: Modem for
> Photoshop? I don't use Photoshop, but what does a modem have to do
> with it? Him: You know, how fast a modem do you use with Photoclock?
> Me: Uh, modems have nothing at all to do with using Photoshop or any
> other image editor. - At that point he finally had the sense to turn
> beet red and leave, and we never saw him again.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

>>On the other hand, real-time control on a cheap microcontroller is
>>not as easy as it seems.
>
> That's the least of the issues. The major bottleneck is in the CNC
> software. Most of it is written for open loop stepper setups using the
> tradional I/O control port of choice. This therefore influences
> hardware design. Even though there is USB ready CNC software out there,
> why build in a USB interface when most are using the parallel port. Let
> the user get an adapter instead.
>
> What desktop CNC needs is an IBM of sorts to create a standard that
> both the hardware and software guys buy into. Somehow, a computer in
> every home (or room) is easier to visualize than a CNC setup so we're
> probably a long way from seeing anything like that.


Go look at what Microsoft is doing.  Are they IBM-ish enough for you? 
They call it robotics, since more people understand that than CNC.  Sure,
the 'usual crowd' will complain about M$, but since they haven't managed
to come up with a standard...

Despite that, I don't really have a problem with the status quo, junked
PCs controlling machines thru the parallel port.  In 5 years time I'll
think about USB, and in 10 actually do something about it.  By that time
PCs will have USB5 and there will be USB2 PIC chips that actually work and
we can actually program easily.

Of course, by that stage Windows might be dead, and we'll all be using web
-based GoogleOS.  Then we're screwed.

Tony

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Probably not.....
> 
> For motorspinners
> For people that are cheap
> A $150.00 machine
> A $500.00 machine
> Avaiable at your local Best Buy
> Made from junkyard scrap
> 
> 
> http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/s42.htm
> 
> I wonder how much this one costs?
> 
> Chris

ever hear the saying  "If ya have to ask ?"

Dave



>

> 
> And the flames..........
> 
> >
> >  #1) PIC's are not free.  the flip side of what you say is that for
> >  zero dollars, I can rip apart a printer cable, pull the ends out
to my
> >  drivers and run a machine from DOS.  free.
> 
> Are your drivers free? the printer cable had to be bought at some
> stage, PICS, and it could be done on one big one, are not that
> expensive, how much is a copy of DOS, I dont have that...

that match was to light the candle, not the blow-torch ! : )

the driver board would probably be on par with a PIC based driver. 
the MOSFETS and supporting circuity is not that much differnet than
any of the single chip solutions.

As for software, I am asuming that no matter what you use, you are
using a PC to create the Gerber files that will be used for the CNC
machine.

My point is that you can use that computer both for creating the
layout as well as running the machine.

Would you be able to put all the axes (up to 6?) in one PIC, and I
assume that the microstepping part would be a complete external
circuit ?  that, or you would need some way to set the microstepping
level.


 
> 
> >  #2) PIC's are not free. you have to have a programmer, or you have to
> >  buy one pre-programmed.  Either way, it costs money.
> 
> Thats why we have these little groups, to help each other, you know
> that printer cable of yours, you could program a PIC with that, or
> someone in the group could do it for a small fee, I would do it.


I would LOVE to have such a unit.  Especially if it were open source.

As I see it, one would have to download the cut file(s)  for making a
pcb, there is usually a drill layer with different drill bits. you
would need a display of some sort to prompt the user what size bit to
use or what cutter is needed.

You would need to be able to select which layer you wanted to run.  It
could be from the download, where you download a layer, then cut it,
or maybe download all the cut layers and then select which one you
want to cut.

I can see it is possible.  I am not sure how you would interface the
monitor/screen to show the cut path as the work progressed, but I
guess you could leave that part out to save some $$.  Maybe if there
were 2 usb ports on the controller, one could send the cut path
information back to the PC so the PC could show the cut path ?

I guess some of those details would need to be worked out.



Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> >
> > Probably not.....
> > 
> > For motorspinners
> > For people that are cheap
> > A $150.00 machine
> > A $500.00 machine
> > Avaiable at your local Best Buy
> > Made from junkyard scrap
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/s42.htm
> > 
> > I wonder how much this one costs?
> > 
> > Chris
> 
> ever hear the saying  "If ya have to ask ?"
> 
> Dave


LOL!

You got that right!  I am sure it's at least as expensive as Steve 
stated.  Then there are the options :-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> > <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Probably not.....
> > > 
> > > For motorspinners
> > > For people that are cheap
> > > A $150.00 machine
> > > A $500.00 machine
> > > Avaiable at your local Best Buy
> > > Made from junkyard scrap
> > > 
> > > 
> > > http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/s42.htm
> > > 
> > > I wonder how much this one costs?
> > > 
> > > Chris
> > 
> > ever hear the saying  "If ya have to ask ?"
> > 
> > Dave
> 
> 
> LOL!
> 
> You got that right!  I am sure it's at least as expensive as Steve 
> stated.  Then there are the options :-)


The basic price is $10,000 USD to start.  The T-Tech (competitor)
discounts that by 40%, so their minimum-stareter machine-only is
roughtly $6,000 and the software is another $1,000.

I have seen used ones go on -E-bay for $4,000 !

There is the larger table,
the vacuum table
high speed spindle
super-high speed spindle.
tool changer.....

Yup, you can empty your budget with no problem.

Yearly maintenance is only about $2,000, and covers the service, I
think parts are extra.

But, if you are paying your design guys $50/hr and have to wait 2 days
for a proto-board to come back, the cost for one board could be $1,000
for each board. imagine one a week or so ?  the cost to do it in-house
can be recovered in a year.

Dave

So- what is your website address?
--
Phil Mattison
http://www.ohmikron.com/
Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software

----- Original Message ----- 

From: crankorgan <john@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:30 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Selling $150 PCBMill


> Steve,
>       I also found these guys are better talkers and writers then me!
> I was always the guy in the back room doing the real work. It was a
> tough leap for me to come out in the open and start a website. Other
> people's website look better than mine. In the long run I sold more
> plans and have more completed machines than all of them combined. Oh
> yea! I just remembered! I sell a student mill/drill made out of MDF
> that can be built for under $100. The problem is the booklet is so
> long I have to charge $40 for it. Very few have ordered it yet several
> teachers requested the project. I guess Steve, you and I need to work
> in the background with a really slick guy handling the customers.
> 
> 
>                                                 John

www.woodduck.com  LOL  


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Mattison" <mattison20@...>
wrote:

>
> So- what is your website address?
> --
> Phil Mattison
> http://www.ohmikron.com/
> Motors::Drivers::Controllers::Software
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: crankorgan <john@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:30 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Selling $150 PCBMill
> 
> 
> > Steve,
> >       I also found these guys are better talkers and writers then me!
> > I was always the guy in the back room doing the real work. It was a
> > tough leap for me to come out in the open and start a website. Other
> > people's website look better than mine. In the long run I sold more
> > plans and have more completed machines than all of them combined. Oh
> > yea! I just remembered! I sell a student mill/drill made out of MDF
> > that can be built for under $100. The problem is the booklet is so
> > long I have to charge $40 for it. Very few have ordered it yet several
> > teachers requested the project. I guess Steve, you and I need to work
> > in the background with a really slick guy handling the customers.
> > 
> > 
> >                                                 John
>

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:30:30 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>  
wrote:

>
> But, if you are paying your design guys $50/hr and have to wait 2 days
> for a proto-board to come back, the cost for one board could be $1,000
> for each board. imagine one a week or so ?  the cost to do it in-house
> can be recovered in a year.
> Dave


Only that a CNC mill doesn't make any bords. At best it drills and cuts  
them.
To make somewhat serious boards in house you would at least need THP, and  
not so many do that. They rather pay for faster proto services (e.g. 8  
hour).

Even plain THP boards are not really enough for a lot of stuff these days,  
you want soldermask, legend, multilayer at least. When you get into flex  
circuits and laser drilled microvias and stuff like that you'll need to  
make a lot of boards to make it work. You'd need to employ people that do  
just that, and what do you need to pay them while they are waiting for the  
design people to need the next board?

I'd say the cnc drill is one of the smaller investments if you are going  
to set up PCB fabrication and want capabilities that are at least remotely  
up to date. If you can make do with older technology it's another story.

ST

> To make somewhat serious boards in house you would at least need
THP, and  
> not so many do that. They rather pay for faster proto services (e.g. 8  
> hour).
> 
> Even plain THP boards are not really enough for a lot of stuff these
days,  
> you want soldermask, legend, multilayer at least. When you get into
flex  
> circuits and laser drilled microvias and stuff like that you'll need
to  
> make a lot of boards to make it work. You'd need to employ people
that do  
> just that, and what do you need to pay them while they are waiting
for the  
> design people to need the next board?
> 
> I'd say the cnc drill is one of the smaller investments if you are
going  
> to set up PCB fabrication and want capabilities that are at least
remotely  
> up to date. If you can make do with older technology it's another story.
> 
> ST


As you know, there are may methods of doing a thing.  Have ever made a
small board to hold componets for a circut because you don't trust any
other method ?

And, it is very simple to use a resistor as a thru-hole instead of
requiring a via.

Many circuits can be proven, tested and corrected in-house on single
sided boards.  Heck, most shops are going to SMD parts, so holes are
becomming less of a need.

And for all SMD work, all you need is a way to etch the board.  and
for that , you might be better off with TT or some other such chemical
method.  

So, for strictly SMD work, I would not recomend a drilling machine at all.

Dave





>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:12:49 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>  
wrote:

>
> As you know, there are may methods of doing a thing.  Have ever made a
> small board to hold componets for a circut because you don't trust any
> other method ?
> And, it is very simple to use a resistor as a thru-hole instead of
> requiring a via.
> Many circuits can be proven, tested and corrected in-house on single
> sided boards.  Heck, most shops are going to SMD parts, so holes are
> becomming less of a need.
> And for all SMD work, all you need is a way to etch the board.  and
> for that , you might be better off with TT or some other such chemical
> method.
> So, for strictly SMD work, I would not recomend a drilling machine at  
> all.
> Dave


Any _serious_ SMD circuit will require more than one layer and THP to  
route it. Only the most simple circuits, or "old" technology, can make do  
with a single layer. Things are getting smaller all the time and the only  
things i still find single-sided is cheap televisions and very simple  
circuits with only few components.

As you know i make all my own boards and quite a few that are not for  
myself. I know the limitations for homebrew boards and can live with them,  
for most projects. Some things just aren't physically possible, especially  
some new components put high demands on layout, even if you are not  
pressed by external size constraints.

I'm all for making your own boards, but i don't think the economics of a  
CNC machine work out quite as was suggested. One can't buy a CNC and say  
"right, now we'll save lotsa money because the design people won't have to  
wait", a lot more goes into a PCB than what can be done with a CNC  
machine. In some cases it may be useful, but the CNC may still not be the  
most important thing for inhouse PCB fab, and in other cases it is not  
reasonably possible at all to make useful prototypes yourself.
I believe quite a few CNC machines are sitting with a layer of dust in  
various companies here, exactly because they were bought with false  
expectations.

ST

> As you know i make all my own boards and quite a few that are not for  
> myself. I know the limitations for homebrew boards and can live with
them,  
> for most projects. Some things just aren't physically possible,
especially  
> some new components put high demands on layout, even if you are not  
> pressed by external size constraints.
> 
> I'm all for making your own boards, but i don't think the economics
of a  
> CNC machine work out quite as was suggested. 

I cannot argue with that.  As you know, you have tools that save you
way more than you paid, and some that you paid way more than they are
worth,  and a whole lot in between.

In the last year, I have made dozens of boards, stepper drivers, laser
power supply, 555 timer, AVR programmer, some speech voice thing... 

I really try to do one sided as much as possible. I do not do much
with SMD parts, but love them for some circuits.

And, I can truly say that mechanical etching has done everything I
have asked of it.

I cannot say, and would quickly say, that it is all you need, or that
it is perfect.

It is not for everyone.

But, I do like to be able to take a case and poke holes perfectly in
line and have the board line up to them.

To engrave letters on holes for LED's.

Another thing that I find very useful.  the mounting holes line up to
the case.  and 40 pin DIP's fall into the holes.  you can put tiny
holes in a row for those machined pin carriers, and have them just
slip in.  Nice.

If all you do is a board a month, I would actually suggest you do them
by hand.  I don't think you would argue with that.

But, like a power screw driver vs. a manual one. the power tools do
come in very handy.

Dave

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:26:36 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>  
wrote:

>
> If all you do is a board a month, I would actually suggest you do them
> by hand.  I don't think you would argue with that.
> But, like a power screw driver vs. a manual one. the power tools do
> come in very handy.
> Dave


I do agree a CNC can be useful.

All i didn't agree with is that it is some sort of ultimate solution. I is  
like buying that power screwdriver and expecting it to do the work of an  
entire assembly line all by itself.

A CNC needs someone to operate it, and needs a host of other equipment to  
make useful PCBs besides it. But you know that.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:26:36 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > If all you do is a board a month, I would actually suggest you do them
> > by hand.  I don't think you would argue with that.
> > But, like a power screw driver vs. a manual one. the power tools do
> > come in very handy.
> > Dave
> 
> 
> I do agree a CNC can be useful.
> 
> All i didn't agree with is that it is some sort of ultimate solution. 

Whew, you can say that again !

> I is  
> like buying that power screwdriver and expecting it to do the work
of an  
> entire assembly line all by itself.

That is always a problem.  Like any other tool, it takes time to learn
how best to use it, and even then, there are times when it is not the
best tool for the job.


> A CNC needs someone to operate it, and needs a host of other
equipment to  
> make useful PCBs besides it. But you know that.
> 
> ST

I do know that, and it is something everyone should know.  Especially
those who have never used one.

Put another way...  CNC is NOT some sort of ultimate solution !

It IS a tool that can do things a person cannot, or rather it can do
things faster than would take a person to do.

Dave

In article <ems5mp+iv3d@...>,
   lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> Well, MDF doesn't have to look bad ;-)  It's amazing what a few 
> coats of shellac, prior to painting will do for the final finish :-) 
> Don't know if that is part of the plan or not, but it sure can make 
> the machine look MUCH better.

I used to work for the BBC, still do indirectly. When I joined in 1970, I
was working at Daventry, one of the UK short-wave stations broadcasting
overseas. In the east transmitter hall were four transmitters, two
installed pre-war and the other two during the war. Because there was a
shortage of metal during the war the two later units had non-critical
parts, around the control desks mainly, made of wood. Well painted, unless
you looked closely and felt the parts you couldn't tell the difference.

You can have your nice shiny metal, you can polish it if you wish, but
someone who "knows what he's at" with a paint brush can make things look
nice too.

Keep up the good work guys.

Stuart

P.S See the middle picture here:
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/daventry/daventry-rr.asp