Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by donahn

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone makes copper covered perfboard for etching.
Basically, just a copper covered board that's been pre-drilled.
Searching on google I can find regular perfboard, perfboard with etched
pads, perfboard with etched strips, but no perfboard with an intact
copper coating.

It seems like this would be the ultimate rapid prototyping kit using
toner transfer, especially if you were only using through-hole
components. Just etch and start soldering your components in! No
drilling. For SMD, just send all your vias to a pre-existing hole.

I can't be the only person to have thought of this, so are there some
drawbacks to this I'm not aware of? Does anyone know of a supplier for
such a board? Is there some problem using PCB software with a board
with predrilled holes?

Cheers,
Don

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by DJ Delorie

"donahn" <donahn@...> writes:

> It seems like this would be the ultimate rapid prototyping kit using
> toner transfer, especially if you were only using through-hole

How would you prevent the FeCl from etching the barrels in the holes,
and disconnecting the two sides?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by Borislav Trifonov

The holes would be tin, solder, or silver plated. All three are
etch-resistant.

DJ Delorie wrote:

>
>
>
> "donahn" <donahn@... <mailto:donahn%40yahoo.com>> writes:
> > It seems like this would be the ultimate rapid prototyping kit using
> > toner transfer, especially if you were only using through-hole
>
> How would you prevent the FeCl from etching the barrels in the holes,
> and disconnecting the two sides?
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date: 12/11/2006
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by Ross McKenzie

Maybe I am off track here, but I read the original post as meaning that
the board was single sided....and therefore with drilled, but not
conducting, holes. He spoke of through hole components....not through
hole conductors.

Apologies if I am wrong. And for the record, it sounds like a good idea.

Regards,

Ross McKenzie
ValuSoft
Melbourne Australia,_._,___

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by DJ Delorie

Borislav Trifonov <bdt@...> writes:

> The holes would be tin, solder, or silver plated. All three are
> etch-resistant.

So, a fab house would drill, plate, mask everything but the holes, tin
plate them, and stop? Leaving you a board with tin plated barrels,
and bare copper elsewhere?

I wonder if you could talk a fab into doing that cheaply enough...

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by DJ Delorie

Ross McKenzie <valusoft@...> writes:

> Maybe I am off track here, but I read the original post as meaning that
> the board was single sided....and therefore with drilled, but not
> conducting, holes. He spoke of through hole components....not through
> hole conductors.

He mentioned "vias" at one point, so I got the idea that it's double
sided.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "donahn" <donahn@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:41 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if anyone makes copper covered perfboard for etching.
> Basically, just a copper covered board that's been pre-drilled.
> Searching on google I can find regular perfboard, perfboard with etched
> pads, perfboard with etched strips, but no perfboard with an intact
> copper coating.
>
> It seems like this would be the ultimate rapid prototyping kit using
> toner transfer, especially if you were only using through-hole
> components. Just etch and start soldering your components in! No
> drilling. For SMD, just send all your vias to a pre-existing hole.
>
> I can't be the only person to have thought of this, so are there some
> drawbacks to this I'm not aware of? Does anyone know of a supplier for
> such a board? Is there some problem using PCB software with a board
> with predrilled holes?

Vero used to sell something similar - basically Veroboard without the gaps
between the tracks. It was only available on a special order and one had to
buy 250 GBP worth, IIRC. It was intended for prototyping RF circuits, and
wouldn't be suitable for etching as the copper was coated with flux.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by Herbert E. Plett

--- donahn <donahn@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if anyone makes copper covered perfboard for etching.
> Basically, just a copper covered board that's been pre-drilled.

wouldn't it be easier to just CNC some rows of holes?

> ... For SMD, just send all your vias to a pre-existing hole.

I guess you are thinking of putting wires through? like those proto boards out
there that are not through plated.
Again I think some rows of CNC drilled holes would be easier on you...

More or less this is what I was thinking of when I asked about the WOODEN
ROUTER.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by Tony Smith

> > Hi,
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone makes copper covered perfboard
> for etching.
> > Basically, just a copper covered board that's been pre-drilled.
>
> wouldn't it be easier to just CNC some rows of holes?
>
> > ... For SMD, just send all your vias to a pre-existing hole.
>
> I guess you are thinking of putting wires through? like those
> proto boards out there that are not through plated.
> Again I think some rows of CNC drilled holes would be easier on you...
>
> More or less this is what I was thinking of when I asked
> about the WOODEN ROUTER.

You do realise that there's 100 holes per square inch? :)

Almost all of the proto boards are phenolic (the brown stuff). They punch
the holes in that, not drill them. Fibreglass is a bit tougher. Those
boards are expensive.

I have actually seen a board like the OP is describing, single sided, just
holes. No idea where I got if from, and no idea where it went. I never
used it for anything.

The boards that resemble breadboards are handy, as are the ones with an area
for a chip in the middle and traces running off it.

It's easy enough to make traces on the 'lots of holes' stuff by just using
lots of solder to link them. If I'm feeling particuarly enthusiatic I bend
a piece of wire across the holes and tack it down. Often I'll just use the
component leg (eg resistor), although this way does make modifications a
pain.

Tony

Re: Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by donahn

Thanks for answering my message. I didn't expect to get so many
replies so soon!

It sounds like this product I'm looking for is rare or non-existant
because I think one of the people that answered would have heard
something like this. But just for fun, let me elaborate. This is
what I'm looking for:

1) Start with a double sided copper clad pcb for etching.
2) Drill (or punch) holes every .1" horizontally and vertically in a
grid (like perfboard).

A single sided board drilled so would also be useful, because for
those occasional times when you need to send wires over the other
side to cross over other traces, you at least have the holes for the
pads predrilled.

Perceived benefits:

1) No need to drill for through hole components. The only drilling
necessary would be for mounting holes for the PCB or larger
components, and there are usually only a handful of these per project.

2) Toner transfer on this board would be a quicker way to prototype a
project than padded perfboard, wirewrap, breadboarding... Just etch
your board and start soldering.

3) Vias can be done by sending a pad to both sides of a pre-existing
hole. You would still have to solder both sides, using the leads off
your surplus bulk resistor pile, but again, no need to drill.

4) Although rapid, the result is permanent and stable (unlike
wirewrap, breadboard..)

5) If you end up with a design you like, you could just use the
perfboard PCB design on a regular production PCB.

6) The money you save on that CNC mill can be funneled into other
projects :)

Possible problems:

1) Your PCB software would have to know how to route around the pre-
existing holes. I'm not sure if all PCB packages are up to it.

2) Potentially you could still use SMD with your through hole
components, but I don't know if the holes will get in the way.

3) The holes may cause suboptimal packing and routing of your
components and traces.

If there were single sides versions of this copper clad perfboard, I
think it would still be fun to use. Can anyone find a reference for
this?

I was thinking if this wasn't available anywhere I could glue a
couple copper sheets (with guide holes) onto a perfboard to get the
effect I want. Anyone know how hard that would be to do reliably?

The advantage of this home-glued copper perfboard is that I could
then send traces over the holes I don't need for better routing. The
disadvantage is that I need an extra step, and that CNC mill starts
looking pretty good :)

Cheers,
Don

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by Tony Smith

> Thanks for answering my message. I didn't expect to get so
> many replies so soon!
>
> It sounds like this product I'm looking for is rare or
> non-existant because I think one of the people that answered
> would have heard
> something like this. But just for fun, let me elaborate. This is
> what I'm looking for:
>
> 1) Start with a double sided copper clad pcb for etching.
> 2) Drill (or punch) holes every .1" horizontally and
> vertically in a grid (like perfboard).
>
> A single sided board drilled so would also be useful, because
> for those occasional times when you need to send wires over
> the other side to cross over other traces, you at least have
> the holes for the pads predrilled.

Personally I think it's pointless, but don't let that stop you!

As I said in a prior post, I have seen a single-side version of what you
describe. Where it came from, what it was for & where it went I've no idea.
RF maybe? Needed the copper for shielding or a ground plane?

You can buy laminate without ANY copper, just the holes. But that's for
wirewrapping, so it doesn't matter too much.

Your main problem is the sheer number of holes. 1" square has 100 holes, a
4"x3" board (ie small) will have 1200 holes. At a hole drilled per second,
that's a 20 minute job. For home use, the advantages are a bit low.

One point you haven't considered is that some components (7805 etc) need
bigger than normal holes, so you have to drill those out anyway. You need
to do the same on the usual boards so it's a minor point.

A board house will certainly make it for you. They may scratch their heads,
mutter "WTF?" and charge you a strange price, but they'll make it. I really
don't see any advantage over drilling a board with just the holes you need,
then etching it.

Tony

Re: Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by jpanhalt

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@...>
wrote:

>
> > Thanks for answering my message. I didn't expect to get so
> > many replies so soon!
> >
> > It sounds like this product I'm looking for is rare or
> > non-existant because I think one of the people that answered
> > would have heard
> > something like this. But just for fun, let me elaborate. This

> > what I'm looking for:
> >
> > 1) Start with a double sided copper clad pcb for etching.
> > 2) Drill (or punch) holes every .1" horizontally and
> > vertically in a grid (like perfboard).
> >
> > A single sided board drilled so would also be useful, because
> > for those occasional times when you need to send wires over
> > the other side to cross over other traces, you at least have
> > the holes for the pads predrilled.

I believe Injectorall makes what is being described on FR4 (B3426D);
DigiKey #PC44P-ND. John

Re: Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by Don

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "donahn" <donahn@...> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if anyone makes copper covered perfboard for etching.
> Basically, just a copper covered board that's been pre-drilled.
> Searching on google I can find regular perfboard, perfboard with etched
> pads, perfboard with etched strips, but no perfboard with an intact
> copper coating.
>
> It seems like this would be the ultimate rapid prototyping kit using
> toner transfer, especially if you were only using through-hole
> components. Just etch and start soldering your components in! No
> drilling. For SMD, just send all your vias to a pre-existing hole.
>
> I can't be the only person to have thought of this, so are there some
> drawbacks to this I'm not aware of? Does anyone know of a supplier for
> such a board? Is there some problem using PCB software with a board
> with predrilled holes?
>
> Cheers,
> Don
>

This kind of thing is what we used to prototype on back when
I was an R&D tech. Take a look here:

http://www.vectorelect.com/Vectorbord.htm

There is a special tool you can buy from them that will
cut a circular gap around a hole to make a pad. The proto-
typing system worked great as I recall but the tool was
pricey and broke easily. I imagine it could be etched like
any other board if you could get your layout tools to
understand it.

-don

Re: Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by donahn

> Personally I think it's pointless, but don't let that stop you!
>
> As I said in a prior post, I have seen a single-side version of

what you

> describe. Where it came from, what it was for & where it went I've

no idea.

> RF maybe? Needed the copper for shielding or a ground plane?
>
> You can buy laminate without ANY copper, just the holes. But

that's for

> wirewrapping, so it doesn't matter too much.
>
> Your main problem is the sheer number of holes. 1" square has 100

holes, a

> 4"x3" board (ie small) will have 1200 holes. At a hole drilled per

second,

> that's a 20 minute job. For home use, the advantages are a bit low.
>
> One point you haven't considered is that some components (7805 etc)

need

> bigger than normal holes, so you have to drill those out anyway.

You need

> to do the same on the usual boards so it's a minor point.
>
> A board house will certainly make it for you. They may scratch

their heads,

> mutter "WTF?" and charge you a strange price, but they'll make it.

I really

> don't see any advantage over drilling a board with just the holes

you need,

> then etching it.
>
> Tony
>

I would not bother unless is was massed produced, and thus relatively
inexpensive (i.e. a few bucks more than a plain board). Especially
at the low hourly rate I pay myself :)

-Don

Re: Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by donahn

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <dk31415926@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "donahn" <donahn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone makes copper covered perfboard for

etching.

> > Basically, just a copper covered board that's been pre-drilled.
> > Searching on google I can find regular perfboard, perfboard with

etched

> > pads, perfboard with etched strips, but no perfboard with an

intact

> > copper coating.
> >
> > It seems like this would be the ultimate rapid prototyping kit

using

> > toner transfer, especially if you were only using through-hole
> > components. Just etch and start soldering your components in!

> > drilling. For SMD, just send all your vias to a pre-existing

hole.

> >
> > I can't be the only person to have thought of this, so are there

some

> > drawbacks to this I'm not aware of? Does anyone know of a

supplier for

> > such a board? Is there some problem using PCB software with a

board

> > with predrilled holes?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Don
> >
>
> This kind of thing is what we used to prototype on back when
> I was an R&D tech. Take a look here:
>
> http://www.vectorelect.com/Vectorbord.htm
>
> There is a special tool you can buy from them that will
> cut a circular gap around a hole to make a pad. The proto-
> typing system worked great as I recall but the tool was
> pricey and broke easily. I imagine it could be etched like
> any other board if you could get your layout tools to
> understand it.
>
> -don
>

This may work, though the website has some broken links so I can't
get a detailed description. But thanks, I'll look into it!

-Don

P.S. the prototype system also sounds interesting, if I could just
get the website to work.

Re: Copper covered perfboard?

2006-12-15 by donahn

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jpanhalt" <janhalt@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for answering my message. I didn't expect to get so
> > > many replies so soon!
> > >
> > > It sounds like this product I'm looking for is rare or
> > > non-existant because I think one of the people that answered
> > > would have heard
> > > something like this. But just for fun, let me elaborate.

This

> is
> > > what I'm looking for:
> > >
> > > 1) Start with a double sided copper clad pcb for etching.
> > > 2) Drill (or punch) holes every .1" horizontally and
> > > vertically in a grid (like perfboard).
> > >
> > > A single sided board drilled so would also be useful, because
> > > for those occasional times when you need to send wires over
> > > the other side to cross over other traces, you at least have
> > > the holes for the pads predrilled.
>
>
> I believe Injectorall makes what is being described on FR4

(B3426D);

> DigiKey #PC44P-ND. John
>

This may fit the bill, though I wish I could get a picture of this so
I can make sure its not pretinned. The correct Digikey PN seems to
be B3426D-ND.

Thanks,
Don