Homebrew PCBs

Does anyone have a more scientifically based reason why certain inks,
such as the recommended MIS PRO inks, work best? Also, what is the
best methodology to remove the inks from the PCB surface?

Would like to see other people's experimental ink jet printers that
they have built! I know I will take the plunge soon. Has anyone really
dug into the control aspect of the printer where we can control at
least head movement?

Joseph

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:57:28 +0100, gsi11135 <gsi11135@...> wrote:

> Does anyone have a more scientifically based reason why certain inks,
> such as the recommended MIS PRO inks, work best? Also, what is the
> best methodology to remove the inks from the PCB surface?

It's extremely tough once cured, or if left to dry a few hours. Normal  
solvents (acetone) will not cut it, but printer cleaner with ammonia in it  
does get rid of most of it. Mechanically remove the rest (abrasive  
scrubbing).

> Would like to see other people's experimental ink jet printers that
> they have built! I know I will take the plunge soon. Has anyone really
> dug into the control aspect of the printer where we can control at
> least head movement?

That would be a lot of work, and i don't see what you'd gain from it? The  
printer electronics work just fine as they are.

Remember they put through a non-trivial amount of data, and timing is  
critical as anything, it would not be as easy to control as a CNC machine  
by far.

ST

At 4:35 pm ((PST)) Fri Dec 15, 2006, gsi11135 wrote:
>Does anyone have a more scientifically based reason why certain inks,
>such as the recommended MIS PRO inks, work best?

Since we are urged to be scientific here,
_more_ scientific than  _what_, exactly?

I hope you haven't been taking the threads
about goat sacrifices too literally ;-)

Have you Googled for data on inkjet ink and
paper technology?  (There is some.)

Hint: the inks that work well are pigment inks
  - what is the difference between a pigment ink
and a dye ink apart from the colouring matter?

>  Also, what is the
>best methodology to remove the inks from the PCB surface?

Depending somewhat on your criteria for "best",
mild abrasion in water - perhaps a similar technique
to the one used to prepare the board for printing but
without the need for obsessive attention to degreasing.


Regards, LenW

Joseph,

Controlling a printer isn't going to be even remotely easy.  There is 
an awful lot going on between the application software and the print 
head. Just thinking about the printer driver in the Windows OS is 
enough to make me want to say "Forget about it".

You would be far better off focusing your efforts on modifying a 
printer to accept a PCB that to try and start from scratch.

Chris





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "gsi11135" <gsi11135@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a more scientifically based reason why certain inks,
> such as the recommended MIS PRO inks, work best? Also, what is the
> best methodology to remove the inks from the PCB surface?
> 
> Would like to see other people's experimental ink jet printers that
> they have built! I know I will take the plunge soon. Has anyone 
really

> dug into the control aspect of the printer where we can control at
> least head movement?
> 
> Joseph
>

Len,

Actually, I was looking for a more detailed explanation of the ink
drying process for different inks. For instance, what makes MIS PRO
inks different from other inks. Was poling for specific links that
might have already been collected concerning this.

As far as controlling the printer control is concerned, I guess I
should have been more specific in what I was asking. I have no desire
to dig into the programming or construction of an ink jet printing
system. Kinda tired right now..

I will start a more thorough google search....get back to you on what
I find.

Jospeh

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:

>
> At 4:35 pm ((PST)) Fri Dec 15, 2006, gsi11135 wrote:
> >Does anyone have a more scientifically based reason why certain inks,
> >such as the recommended MIS PRO inks, work best?
> 
> Since we are urged to be scientific here,
> _more_ scientific than  _what_, exactly?
> 
> I hope you haven't been taking the threads
> about goat sacrifices too literally ;-)
> 
> Have you Googled for data on inkjet ink and
> paper technology?  (There is some.)
> 
> Hint: the inks that work well are pigment inks
>   - what is the difference between a pigment ink
> and a dye ink apart from the colouring matter?
> 
> >  Also, what is the
> >best methodology to remove the inks from the PCB surface?
> 
> Depending somewhat on your criteria for "best",
> mild abrasion in water - perhaps a similar technique
> to the one used to prepare the board for printing but
> without the need for obsessive attention to degreasing.
> 
> 
> Regards, LenW
>

I managed to modify Epson Photo R220 for
direct PCB printing and used MISPRO yellow ink
for it. I am drying the ink with my hot-air station
at 400 C. It is quite clean and fast. Printing
and drying is finished in 3 minutes.

I etched the PCB with Fe-Cl3. 

But before printing,
you should bath the PCB about 1-2 minutes in acid
(H-Cl + H2-O2) to become purple-brown in color. This
creates a soft surface and ink will be printed very
smoothly
as if it is printed onto a paper. Otherwise, ink is
populated on some areas, waved in color and not evenly
distributed on the PCB. This is the original
contribution of mine I think :-)

Results are not as good as Volkan's
results but satisfactory. There is no problem
with 8 MIL traces. Problems occur if dust in air
drops on the printed image while it is still wet. If
printer is located in a clean box, I think every thing
would be OK down to 6 or even down to 3 MIL traces.

R220 is very very easy printer to modify, since
its printing head height is adjustable. 
I recommend it to you.

You know that inks in acetate pen (we call it as
"correction pen" used before etching in positive 20
process) is water and etc resistant. Did anyone tried
it? I want to make a try but I am afraid of clogging
problems that never recovered with such ink. 

Even with MIS PRO ink, you should head clean your
printer (printer does it for you) if 2 days passed. It
clogs the printer head in 48 hours!

I promise, I will send pictures and details in future,
but now I have no time for them. 

Sincerely,

Dr. (This is my nick in my friends)





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On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:55:08 +0100, Bora Dikmen <bora_dikmen@...>  
wrote:

>
> But before printing,
> you should bath the PCB about 1-2 minutes in acid
> (H-Cl + H2-O2) to become purple-brown in color. This
> creates a soft surface and ink will be printed very
> smoothly
> as if it is printed onto a paper. Otherwise, ink is
> populated on some areas, waved in color and not evenly
> distributed on the PCB. This is the original
> contribution of mine I think :-)

That's a fantastic idea, microetching the surface....



Dust is a problem for me too.


> Even with MIS PRO ink, you should head clean your
> printer (printer does it for you) if 2 days passed. It
> clogs the printer head in 48 hours!


Strangely at first the MISPRO was great, i left it in the printer over  
several weeks with the cleaning pump totally disabled and it would still  
print without fault after weeks of standing still. This went on for a few  
months with no problems, but now suddenly it is not printing on all  
nozzles, and resists cleaning so far.

ST

My printer was clogged up with Mispro inks after few days of 
sitting. The far right, now black, was completely clogged up and 
having performed all kinds of cleaning tricks did not help. I 
Soaking in mispro cleaner for few days did not help. Mispro cleaner 
is useless. And please notice that my printer was brand new from 
C88+ that printed perfectly with Epson inks. I then tested that 
printer before conversion with mispro inks (cartridges in correect 
slots) and the picture was ugly. I cannot imagine how can anybody be 
satisfied with mispro colors!!!!!!!! Unless they do not care about 
colors but they do care about water sensitivity.  My intention is 
not dispute Stefan's contribution, it was great, I jsut want to tell 
you that that method is not what it seems to be. By the way: my 
quality of print on copper is 100%, superb, after heating up it is 
alos 100% but after etching some thin traces on a complex PCB were 
here and there underetched. For me it is not a big thing, maybe 1% 
maybe 2%. My problem is that that my brand new printer clogs up few 
days later. Mike


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:55:08 +0100, Bora Dikmen <bora_dikmen@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > But before printing,
> > you should bath the PCB about 1-2 minutes in acid
> > (H-Cl + H2-O2) to become purple-brown in color. This
> > creates a soft surface and ink will be printed very
> > smoothly
> > as if it is printed onto a paper. Otherwise, ink is
> > populated on some areas, waved in color and not evenly
> > distributed on the PCB. This is the original
> > contribution of mine I think :-)
> 
> That's a fantastic idea, microetching the surface....
> 
> 
> 
> Dust is a problem for me too.
> 
> 
> > Even with MIS PRO ink, you should head clean your
> > printer (printer does it for you) if 2 days passed. It
> > clogs the printer head in 48 hours!
> 
> 
> Strangely at first the MISPRO was great, i left it in the printer 
over  
> several weeks with the cleaning pump totally disabled and it would 
still  
> print without fault after weeks of standing still. This went on 
for a few  
> months with no problems, but now suddenly it is not printing on 
all  

> nozzles, and resists cleaning so far.
> 
> ST
>

Mike,

I don't think anyone is too concerned about converting a printer for 
PCB work to also work for printing on paper.  So, as far as MISPRO 
inks printing ugly colors, no one cares for PCB work. It is only 
used as a resist, once etched, it has no further purpose.

I don't know for certain if MISPRO inks are required for the 
process.  In my early crude tests with yellow Epson ink, I had some 
promising results. Mind you that was not done with a printer so I 
have not taken it to that level just yet.

At some point this Winter, I hope to do some more work with an R220 
printer to work on this concept further.  With that printer I will 
be focusing on the Epson inks to see what can be done with them.  

Under-etching on thin traces is not the fault of the resist.  That's 
a function of the etching process.  You would get that same problem 
with toner transfer, photo-resists, etc.  I suspect spray etching 
system may work better to help reduce that problem.

Another advantage to the inkjet process is the precision which so 
far appears to be better than can be done with toner transfer.  
While this is generally not a big problem, if drilling on a CNC 
machine, it can add to the problems as you would need to scale your 
coordinates to get things to line up good. Not a huge problem, just 
one more thing in the process.

While I still favor toner transfer (because I can do it), I think 
the other processes have merrit too such as ink jet printing as well 
as isolation milling.  Once I get my CNC machine worked out, I will 
be trying a variety of methods including some hybrid methods by 
combining the various technologies.

The problem with toner transfer is that it is very hit-or-miss for 
many people, myself included.  One day I can make a perfect double 
sided board.  The next day I can't repeat the process using the 
exact same materials and such.  So, while it works fine for me most 
of the time, it's worth it to look for alternatives if for nothing 
else, something to do and learn about.

Chris

Aaa, friends gathering again :))
My comments are blow in your text:

> I don't think anyone is too concerned about converting a printer 
for PCB work to also work for printing on paper.
== I understand but it would be nice to be able to reuse the bottles 
of expensive ink sitting around with the chip resetter for other 
applications. Not tomention the cartriges could be reused-- but they 
cannot. Even if you don't swap yellow with black in a printer, the 
color quality is 'dirty'. And dry out in a printer. What you like is 
an idea of printing on copper and so do I, but the reality is 
terrible. 

So, as far as MISPRO inks printing ugly colors, no one cares for PCB 
work. It is only used as a resist, once etched, it has no further 
purpose.
== I care as the whole setup is expensive. But the biggest problem 
is drying in the printer.


I don't know for certain if MISPRO inks are required for the 
process.  In my early crude tests with yellow Epson ink, I had some 
promising results. Mind you that was not done with a printer so I 
 have not taken it to that level just yet.
==I cannot give you examples here but by knowing some other 
information, mispro ink works for that purpose and epson ink does 
not. I have been working on this subject for years, plotter, lexmark 
etc. The breakthru is ink that Stefan sugegsted. That is a 
discovery... until someone comes up with a better mouse trap.

> 
> At some point this Winter, I hope to do some more work with an 
R220 printer to work on this concept further.  With that printer I 
will  be focusing on the Epson inks to see what can be done with 
them.  
==If you don't care about the cost of inks then why don't you buy a 
c88+? Unless you really have nothing better but hacking the code. 
 
> Under-etching on thin traces is not the fault of the resist.  
That's a function of the etching process.  You would get that same 
problem with toner transfer, photo-resists, etc.  I suspect spray 
etching system may work better to help reduce that problem.
==True and that is why I said that I can live with it. The issue is 
the ink dies out few days later.

> 
> Another advantage to the inkjet process is the precision which so 
> far appears to be better than can be done with toner transfer.  
> While this is generally not a big problem, if drilling on a CNC 
> machine, it can add to the problems as you would need to scale 
your coordinates to get things to line up good. Not a huge problem, 
just  one more thing in the process.
==Yes, precision is terrific, no doubt. The problem is ink drying in 
a print head few days later.

> 
> While I still favor toner transfer (because I can do it), I think 
> the other processes have merrit too such as ink jet printing as 
well > as isolation milling.  
==Inkjet printing has merit if you can live with ink drying out in 
few days in a print head. Isolation milling? No. That is not  a nice 
method: loud, PCB powder, $$$. Nice method to discuss, though.

Once I get my CNC machine worked out, I will be trying a variety of 
methods including some hybrid methods by combining the various 
technologies.
==I have several CNC machines. Drilling is ok. Milling PCBs is not.


The problem with toner transfer is that it is very hit-or-miss for 
many people, myself included.  One day I can make a perfect double 
sided board.  The next day I can't repeat the process using the 
exact same materials and such.  So, while it works fine for me most 
of the time, it's worth it to look for alternatives if for nothing 
else, something to do and learn about.


==I am surprised that you have problems with TT. I can come to my 
laminator, stick it all in and have a high quality PCB all the time.

It's all in temperature, pressure, cleanlenees, paper, substrate, 
and.. and..and :)

I am for new methods but I want mehod reliable 100%. If you want 
tonprove that printing on copper is the thing, I can save you time: 
it is a coolest method of all. When you see it, one starts having 
thoughts: conductive, fabric, resisotrs.. what not. The orcess is 
truly awesome but it is not as reliable as TT because you have to 
deal with a clogged up printer after few days of use.  Mike

> 
> Chris
>

On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:05:29 +0100, mikezcnc <eemikez@...> wrote:

> I cannot give you examples here but by knowing some other
> information, mispro ink works for that purpose and epson ink does
> not. I have been working on this subject for years, plotter, lexmark
> etc. The breakthru is ink that Stefan sugegsted. That is a
> discovery... until someone comes up with a better mouse trap.


I will again not reply to other points i disagree with, but i feel bound  
to point out that Volkan found the ink and curing process, and you  
continually omit giving him the credit.

ST

One point to note;

MISPRO chip resetter was perfect with the
original Epson cartridges. The problem was
with MISPRO's yellow cartridge's chip.
Printer refused it!

I should replaced it with the original cartridge's
chip
that I replaced. It was easy, only took 20 seconds :-)

Best,

Dr.



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