Homebrew PCBs

>Hi everyone,
>
>I’m new here, I’ve been working with PCB’s for a while and now I want to
>start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know how
>to make them double sided with many details.
>But I couldn’t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
>conductive (metalized holes).
>Can anyone give me a help with this?
>
>Thank you
>
>Nuno T.
>
>
>---
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>
>
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>

> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>
> - much work
> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
> under an SMD part etc.
>
> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>
> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>
> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>
> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
> boards.
>
> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>
> HTH
>
> Markus
>
> >Hi everyone,
> >
> >I’m new here, I’ve been working with PCB’s for a while and now I want to
> >start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know
> > how to make them double sided with many details.
> >But I couldn’t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
> >conductive (metalized holes).
> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
> >
> >Thank you
> >
> >Nuno T.
> >
> >
> >---
> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]

>
> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
> Markus
>

>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets" that 
>look like little open cylinders with flanged ends.  There is a special tool 
>that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to connect the sides, and 
>a component lead can be placed right thru it.  I've even heard mention of 
>being able to use a mechanical pencil instead of the tool.  However, I've not 
>been able to find a local source for this.  Heard a recent mention of LPKF as 
>a possible source, but didn't find it on their site.
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>>
>> - much work
>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
>> under an SMD part etc.
>>
>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>>
>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>>
>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>>
>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
>> boards.
>>
>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> >Hi everyone,
>> >
>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want to
>> >start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know
>> > how to make them double sided with many details.
>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
>> >conductive (metalized holes).
>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
>> >
>> >Thank you
>> >
>> >Nuno T.
>> >
>> >
>> >---
>> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
>> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
>> >
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> >
>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
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>
>
>

>point and holds it there.
>they are also put together on a rod one after the other for easier handling.
>you simply put in, break, put in, break. at the end solder both sides.
>
>there is no possibility for putting a wire of a component through with this method.
>
>
>the first riveting method may be improoved by riveting them really in, pressing a flange on the bottom 
>after inserting. but this needs good riveting tool in a press, i have no lathe which would be a help in 
>experimenting and making this tool. but it also isn't needed at all. works fine so.
>
>this are all non-chemical through holing methods i know (without "take a wire and a iron and solder on 
>both sides")
>
>regards
>stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>10.05.2003 02:06:18, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>
>>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets" that 
>>look like little open cylinders with flanged ends.  There is a special tool 
>>that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to connect the sides, and 
>>a component lead can be placed right thru it.  I've even heard mention of 
>>being able to use a mechanical pencil instead of the tool.  However, I've not 
>>been able to find a local source for this.  Heard a recent mention of LPKF as 
>>a possible source, but didn't find it on their site.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>-Neil.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
>>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
>>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
>>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
>>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>>>
>>> - much work
>>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
>>> under an SMD part etc.
>>>
>>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
>>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
>>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>>>
>>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
>>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
>>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
>>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
>>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>>>
>>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
>>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
>>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
>>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>>>
>>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
>>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
>>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
>>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
>>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
>>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
>>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
>>> boards.
>>>
>>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
>>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
>>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>>> >Hi everyone,
>>> >
>>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want to
>>> >start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know
>>> > how to make them double sided with many details.
>>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
>>> >conductive (metalized holes).
>>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
>>> >
>>> >Thank you
>>> >
>>> >Nuno T.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >---
>>> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
>>> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>> >
>>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> 
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

> here are the urls for the rivets:
> http://www.bungard.com/seiten/p-favorit.htm
>
> lpkf has them (or a other brand)
> http://www.lpkfusa.com/Store/ProductList.asp?Category=Through-Hole%20Platin
>g%20-%20EasyContac
>
> reichelt in germany has them also
> but they only take 19eur / 1000pcb.
> i believe lpkf also ships the tool along with 1000rivets, therefore they
> are so expensive.
>
> is anyone here who has enough knowelede about riveting or owns such a tool
> and may describe its cross section? maybe i can make one with a drill press
> as a substitute for the lathe. i now think the press doesn't need to be
> heated as the bungard press isn't. it may work fine to rivet it together
> and after that reflow the tin or apply new one.
>
> regards
> stefan
>
> 10.05.2003 09:51:09, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> >i have seen them also. (neil's)
> >these cylinders look like pop rivets, but thinner wall (and of course no
> > shaft). you simply apply them by tining one side of the board, then using
> > a homebrew soldering iron tip (which has a narrow tip and after a mm from
> > the tip or so a broader shaft). you put the rivet on the soldering iron
> > (flanged end back) and put it in. press a second and the tinned surface
> > of the board solders the flange to this side so only soldering in bottom
> > is necessary. (to this i also read they conducted thests with NOT AT ALL
> > soldering the flange at the top side, only placing it in cold and
> > soldering bottom (no, the top wasn't tinned so that the tin meltet when
> > soldering bottom) and they had no single connection (of i don't know how
> > much) which had no contact. but i won't trust this (oxidation).
> >
> >my personal idea of placing them is to put a number of them on a piece of
> > hard wire with the right diameter and go with this from hole to hole, the
> > rivets sliding down. after that simply press on the
>
> top
>
> >with dry flat soldering iron tip. this should be faster and doesn't
> > require a special tip for holding them.
> >
> >the version i described is the one of solid copper, which is really a pipe
> > and not filled.
> >
> >i believe the version neil has heard of is the following:
> >think of soldering tin, it has the diameter of the hole but slightly
> > thinner. then put a layer of copper on the outer surface.
> >then cut it to small pieces of pcb with (but maybe don't cut through to
> > keep it as a bar and not tiny pieces). then insert a piece in a pcb and
> > mechanically "rivet" it in like they did (do) with rivets in bridges or
> > boats, from both sides with a hammer or press.
> >then melt the tin out and put your lead in.
> >this leaves the small copper walling very similar to electroplated but
> > dry. i heard this has the disadvantage that you should have cleaned the
> > drill holes with strong acid (to
>
> make
>
> >the fibers stick out and remove the "smeared" epoxy (which can melt).
> >therefore it that tool neil described, and a mecanical pen can be used.
> > you insert such a piece and
>
> then
>
> >brake the rest off and go to the next.
> >a pen can't be used with the upper rivets because the flange would jam it.
> >
> >
> >a third version (which i don't like) is the following:
> >there are sold small pieces of copper, each a bit longer than the pcb.
> >these are conic shaped, a tipped end is inserted in the hole and the
> > thicker end gets stuck at a
>
> certain
>
> >point and holds it there.
> >they are also put together on a rod one after the other for easier
> > handling. you simply put in, break, put in, break. at the end solder both
> > sides.
> >
> >there is no possibility for putting a wire of a component through with
> > this method.
> >
> >
> >the first riveting method may be improoved by riveting them really in,
> > pressing a flange on the bottom after inserting. but this needs good
> > riveting tool in a press, i have no lathe which would be a help in
> > experimenting and making this tool. but it also isn't needed at all.
> > works fine so.
> >
> >this are all non-chemical through holing methods i know (without "take a
> > wire and a iron and solder on both sides")
> >
> >regards
> >stefan
> >
> >10.05.2003 02:06:18, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
> >>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets"
> >> that look like little open cylinders with flanged ends.  There is a
> >> special tool that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to
> >> connect the sides, and a component lead can be placed right thru it. 
> >> I've even heard mention of being able to use a mechanical pencil instead
> >> of the tool.  However, I've not been able to find a local source for
> >> this.  Heard a recent mention of LPKF as a possible source, but didn't
> >> find it on their site.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>-Neil.
> >>
> >>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
> >>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
> >>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
> >>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
> >>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
> >>>
> >>> - much work
> >>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
> >>> under an SMD part etc.
> >>>
> >>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
> >>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
> >>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
> >>>
> >>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
> >>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
> >>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
> >>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
> >>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
> >>>
> >>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
> >>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
> >>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
> >>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
> >>>
> >>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
> >>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
> >>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
> >>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
> >>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
> >>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
> >>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
> >>> boards.
> >>>
> >>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
> >>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
> >>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
> >>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
> >>>
> >>> HTH
> >>>
> >>> Markus
> >>>
> >>> >Hi everyone,
> >>> >
> >>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want
> >>> > to start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
> >>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to
> >>> > know how to make them double sided with many details.
> >>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component
> >>> > holes conductive (metalized holes).
> >>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
> >>> >
> >>> >Thank you
> >>> >
> >>> >Nuno T.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >---
> >>> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
> >>> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >>> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>> >
> >>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
> >>
> >>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>
> >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]

>Thanks for the sources Stefan.  The only one here in the US is LPKF, and they 
>are quite expensive -- if I wanted to experiment with say 3 different sizes 
>(most of my boards are ~5-6 different sized holes), it would cost me $45 x 3 
>= $135!  Perhaps I might get some and split them up in groups of 100 for 
>others who want to try them .... hmmmm???
>
>On the bungard site, the photo of the tool "head" reminds me of a the AN flare 
>tool for flaring brake lines.  The LPKF site lists a "spare anvil", which 
>could be the head of the tool.  It's only $10, so perhaps it might be worth 
>it to by this part and fabricate the rest of this tool myself.
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Saturday 10 May 2003 04:28, Stefan Trethan scribbled:
>> here are the urls for the rivets:
>> http://www.bungard.com/seiten/p-favorit.htm
>>
>> lpkf has them (or a other brand)
>> http://www.lpkfusa.com/Store/ProductList.asp?Category=Through-Hole%20Platin
>>g%20-%20EasyContac
>>
>> reichelt in germany has them also
>> but they only take 19eur / 1000pcb.
>> i believe lpkf also ships the tool along with 1000rivets, therefore they
>> are so expensive.
>>
>> is anyone here who has enough knowelede about riveting or owns such a tool
>> and may describe its cross section? maybe i can make one with a drill press
>> as a substitute for the lathe. i now think the press doesn't need to be
>> heated as the bungard press isn't. it may work fine to rivet it together
>> and after that reflow the tin or apply new one.
>>
>> regards
>> stefan
>>
>> 10.05.2003 09:51:09, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>> >i have seen them also. (neil's)
>> >these cylinders look like pop rivets, but thinner wall (and of course no
>> > shaft). you simply apply them by tining one side of the board, then using
>> > a homebrew soldering iron tip (which has a narrow tip and after a mm from
>> > the tip or so a broader shaft). you put the rivet on the soldering iron
>> > (flanged end back) and put it in. press a second and the tinned surface
>> > of the board solders the flange to this side so only soldering in bottom
>> > is necessary. (to this i also read they conducted thests with NOT AT ALL
>> > soldering the flange at the top side, only placing it in cold and
>> > soldering bottom (no, the top wasn't tinned so that the tin meltet when
>> > soldering bottom) and they had no single connection (of i don't know how
>> > much) which had no contact. but i won't trust this (oxidation).
>> >
>> >my personal idea of placing them is to put a number of them on a piece of
>> > hard wire with the right diameter and go with this from hole to hole, the
>> > rivets sliding down. after that simply press on the
>>
>> top
>>
>> >with dry flat soldering iron tip. this should be faster and doesn't
>> > require a special tip for holding them.
>> >
>> >the version i described is the one of solid copper, which is really a pipe
>> > and not filled.
>> >
>> >i believe the version neil has heard of is the following:
>> >think of soldering tin, it has the diameter of the hole but slightly
>> > thinner. then put a layer of copper on the outer surface.
>> >then cut it to small pieces of pcb with (but maybe don't cut through to
>> > keep it as a bar and not tiny pieces). then insert a piece in a pcb and
>> > mechanically "rivet" it in like they did (do) with rivets in bridges or
>> > boats, from both sides with a hammer or press.
>> >then melt the tin out and put your lead in.
>> >this leaves the small copper walling very similar to electroplated but
>> > dry. i heard this has the disadvantage that you should have cleaned the
>> > drill holes with strong acid (to
>>
>> make
>>
>> >the fibers stick out and remove the "smeared" epoxy (which can melt).
>> >therefore it that tool neil described, and a mecanical pen can be used.
>> > you insert such a piece and
>>
>> then
>>
>> >brake the rest off and go to the next.
>> >a pen can't be used with the upper rivets because the flange would jam it.
>> >
>> >
>> >a third version (which i don't like) is the following:
>> >there are sold small pieces of copper, each a bit longer than the pcb.
>> >these are conic shaped, a tipped end is inserted in the hole and the
>> > thicker end gets stuck at a
>>
>> certain
>>
>> >point and holds it there.
>> >they are also put together on a rod one after the other for easier
>> > handling. you simply put in, break, put in, break. at the end solder both
>> > sides.
>> >
>> >there is no possibility for putting a wire of a component through with
>> > this method.
>> >
>> >
>> >the first riveting method may be improoved by riveting them really in,
>> > pressing a flange on the bottom after inserting. but this needs good
>> > riveting tool in a press, i have no lathe which would be a help in
>> > experimenting and making this tool. but it also isn't needed at all.
>> > works fine so.
>> >
>> >this are all non-chemical through holing methods i know (without "take a
>> > wire and a iron and solder on both sides")
>> >
>> >regards
>> >stefan
>> >
>> >10.05.2003 02:06:18, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>> >>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets"
>> >> that look like little open cylinders with flanged ends.  There is a
>> >> special tool that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to
>> >> connect the sides, and a component lead can be placed right thru it. 
>> >> I've even heard mention of being able to use a mechanical pencil instead
>> >> of the tool.  However, I've not been able to find a local source for
>> >> this.  Heard a recent mention of LPKF as a possible source, but didn't
>> >> find it on their site.
>> >>
>> >>Cheers,
>> >>-Neil.
>> >>
>> >>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
>> >>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
>> >>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
>> >>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
>> >>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>> >>>
>> >>> - much work
>> >>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
>> >>> under an SMD part etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
>> >>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
>> >>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>> >>>
>> >>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
>> >>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
>> >>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
>> >>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
>> >>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
>> >>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
>> >>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
>> >>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>> >>>
>> >>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
>> >>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
>> >>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
>> >>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
>> >>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
>> >>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
>> >>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
>> >>> boards.
>> >>>
>> >>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>> >>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
>> >>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
>> >>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>> >>>
>> >>> HTH
>> >>>
>> >>> Markus
>> >>>
>> >>> >Hi everyone,
>> >>> >
>> >>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want
>> >>> > to start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>> >>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to
>> >>> > know how to make them double sided with many details.
>> >>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component
>> >>> > holes conductive (metalized holes).
>> >>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Thank you
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Nuno T.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >---
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> Markus!
>
> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply them!
> (Temperature?  catalysts?  time in bath?  USW!)
>
> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
>
> But remember!  The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
>
> Thanks!          Jan Rowland

>Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had laying 
>around in my bookmarks.... 
>      http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm
>
>(I've never experimented with this though).
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:
>> Markus!
>>
>> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply them!
>> (Temperature?  catalysts?  time in bath?  USW!)
>>
>> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
>>
>> But remember!  The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
>>
>> Thanks!          Jan Rowland
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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>
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>
>

> hmm the guys from bungard don't like this.
> they say it has too high resistance.
>
> http://www.bungard.com/downloads/ANTI_E.PDF
> somewhere in there...
>
> regards
> st
>
> 10.05.2003 18:30:02, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
> >Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had
> > laying around in my bookmarks....
> >      http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm
> >
> >(I've never experimented with this though).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >-Neil.
> >
> >On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:
> >> Markus!
> >>
> >> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply
> >> them! (Temperature?  catalysts?  time in bath?  USW!)
> >>
> >> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
> >>
> >> But remember!  The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
> >>
> >> Thanks!          Jan Rowland
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
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> >
> >
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>
>
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> ---
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>I have to laugh!  They start of by saying "Please consider the following as an 
>open minded statement that...",
>then later state "...isolation milling is a slow, expensive, almost 30 years 
>old attempt to be different by someone who had a paranoia against chemical 
>etching".
>
>Whether true or false, it's opinionated and obviously written in a tone that 
>screams desperation to not lose support for their products/methods.  They 
>also state things, but don't explain why.
>
>Yes, they're comparing PCB milling machines here and not specifically 
>thru-hole activation, but I think that machines like LPKF would be great for 
>other uses -- like they can engrave front panels for electronic projects, 
>etc.
>
>As for thru-hole plating, whenever I solder a component lead in a plated hole, 
>the solder always wicks itself thru the hole and over to the other side.  For 
>flexible wires, I purposely add more solder so it builds up on the opposite 
>side, so I get a better mechanical hold.  My guess is that even if there is 
>resistance with the "conductive paste" method, the solder will fill the gaps 
>and conduct properly.  Of course, this is my thought/guess, as I've never 
>done this before.
>
>I'm going to ignore that whole article as *desperate* marketing hype.
>
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Saturday 10 May 2003 11:53, Stefan Trethan scribbled:
>> hmm the guys from bungard don't like this.
>> they say it has too high resistance.
>>
>> http://www.bungard.com/downloads/ANTI_E.PDF
>> somewhere in there...
>>
>> regards
>> st
>>
>> 10.05.2003 18:30:02, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>> >Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had
>> > laying around in my bookmarks....
>> >      http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm
>> >
>> >(I've never experimented with this though).
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >-Neil.
>> >
>> >On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:
>> >> Markus!
>> >>
>> >> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply
>> >> them! (Temperature?  catalysts?  time in bath?  USW!)
>> >>
>> >> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
>> >>
>> >> But remember!  The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
>> >>
>> >> Thanks!          Jan Rowland
>> >
>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> >
>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>>
>>
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>
>

>I'm interested.
>Cristian
>>
>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>> Markus

> >
> >
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>

>Markus Zingg wrote:
>
>[deleted]
>>The main advantage
>> however is independancy and the possibility to have a four layer PCB
>> completed within say 2 - 3 hours.... 
>
>Multilayer in 2 - 3 hours !  No offense, but that statement 
>made me laugh. Even if you had a fully automated machines 
>that did everything from drill to the final dry, it will 
>take much longer than 3 hours.
>With your experience of the pattern plated through hole, you 
>must of learned to appreciate the complex nature of the 
>process. As you said earlier its not easy, so unless the 
>hobbyist wants convert to PCB making as their primary 
>interest then plated through holes will be best left to 
>professionals or semi-professionals.
>
>I appreciate your enthusiasm in attempting to make plated 
>through hole boards at home. I've always had a interest in 
>chemistry and find the inner workings of the PCB process 
>quite fascinating. I'm interested in the basic method you 
>are using or plan to use. Is it the pattern plating process 
>or the "tent and etch" or the "etch back" process ?
>
>In the "etch back" process you take a thin copper clad board 
>18 um or less (1/2 oz/ft^2), apply photoresist, expose, 
>develop, and copper plate the tracks so an additional 35um+ 
>is added. Remove the photoresists and etch the whole board 
>until the original 18 um copper cladding is completely 
>etched  and so the thicker tracks are not etched. Obviously 
>this requires an etching apparatus capable of uniform etch, 
>something much better than simple bubble tank.
>
>Adam
>
>
>
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>In a message dated 5/10/2003 2:50:02 AM Central Standard Time, 
>stefan_trethan@... writes:
>
>> these cylinders look like pop rivets,
>
>Those are called "eyelets" and the conventional way to install them is to 
>first make certain that your copper traces are shiny-clean, or tin/lead 
>plated!, paint the top, at least, with appropriately-thinned "rosin flux" 
>sold for the purpose, insert the "rivets", lay the "heads" (generally the 
>"top") down on a steel  plate, and push an awl-tip into each, spreading them 
>tightly on the bottom surface of the hole.  Then CAREFULLY solder them 
>("sweat-solder") on top, wiping off any excess, so there is no "solder-lump" 
>on the top, nor FILLING the hole (unless this was a via, only, not for a 
>component-lead).  If the eyelets you use are not TOO long (you are not using 
>those for 1/8" boards on 1/16" stock, for example), soldering a 
>component-lead in them, and the eyelet-bottom to the trace below can be done 
>as you would solder any lead "on the solder-side".  
>
>Seems I recall a firm-name "International Eylelets"?  I got a sample-pack of 
>VERY TINY gold-plated eylets from them years back, too small for anything but 
>leads on a 1/8 W. resistor!  Try a Google search!  The firm KEPRO, which 
>handles all kindsa PCB stuff surely has eylets, and/or can tell us where to 
>go (yes, laff, if you must!).   I also got a few hundred "we don't stock 
>such; just happened to have these!" HUGE ones from a local surplus house 
>(1/16" O.D., and the flange-O.D. was like 0.110!) tin-ELECTRO-plated, so 
>there wasn't enough tin to "DO anything", and they were years old, so not 
>excellently-solderable any longer.  One must use experience, balance need 
>with hassle, and tolerate one's own need to vent a gale of fetid wind, from 
>time to time!
>
>Jan Rowland, Old Troll
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>

>>  It's only $10, so perhaps it might be worth 
>> it to by this part and fabricate the rest of this tool myself.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> -Neil.
>I own the Bungard's original press.There is no need to buy the full press.
>One handy man can buy only the two parts (see Neil's mail) of the active
>head and to adapt a press from a drill-holder-press to accomodate them. Or
>to use any other hand press.
>Cristian
>
>
>
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>
>

From: "Markus Zingg" <m.zingg@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Metalized holes


> Ok, let me get a bit more specific.
>
> The process obviousely depends on wether a two layer or four layer PCB
> is to be made. I use 18um copper plated base material. In case of a
> two layer board this is of 1.5 mm thikness, in case of a four layer
> one 0.5 mm only. First step is to drill all holes through all layers.
> In case of four layers, I screw the layers together using two
> diagonaly positioned screws that I place outside of the final PCB
> area. Then comes the plaiting trhough process of the inner layer
> (obviousely there is only one inner layer with two sided PCB's). After
> this I laminate a photoresist film onto the two sides of the PCB (or
> inner layer respectively). The result is then exposed and etched, then
> the remaining part of the photoresist is removed by exposing the whole
> print once more and develop (which will completely remove the
> remaining parts of the photoresist). If this is going to be a four
> layer PCB, the outer layers are glued onto the two sides of the inner
> layer using a thin film of 5 minute epoxy. The previousely two screw
> holes are now used to propperly align the layers. After this I drill
> all holes once more to remove glue. After this the whole PCB is once
> more through plated, the outer surfaces are laminated with photoresist
> film, exposed, developped, etched and reexposed developped to remove
> the remaining parts of photoresist.
>
> Now to the time it takes:
>
> exposure = 1.5 minutes per run
> develop = 1 minute
> laminateing = ~1.5 minutes per side
> plate trhough run = 30 minutes up to ~1 hour depending on size of pcb
> etching = ~4 minutes.
> drill the holes = ( I do it manually. The photofilm is manually
> alligned so as it matches the alredy present holes) - depending on the
> board but rarely more than 30 minutes.
> Glueing = ~15 minutes
>
> The times needed of course vary depending on the size and complexity
> of the PCB and of course wether its a two layer or four layer one.
> Bigger PCB's may take longer than 3 hours, but I think that 4 hours
> should be sufficient in mostly all cases. I must add though that I do
> not apply a solder stop mask or anything else because the PCB's I
> create are exclusively used for prototypes.
>
> The chemicals I use are partially concentrates and partially ready
> made mixtures which can be bought from Bungard. The photoresist is
> also from Bungard. I will list them in detail later, but they do only
> have "brand kind" of names which don't tell much about what they
> consist of like C400 and names like this.
>
> The method used was shown to me by a friend I got to know through an
> electronic online forum in the internet (in case you read this - thank
> you John). I visited him so as he could show everything to me and he
> was kind enough to explain everything to me in detail. I personally
> asisted a plating through process and the result was simply stunning.
> >From what I understood the speed of the plating through process and
> the quality of the result extremly depends on the chemicals used. He
> had much inferior results before he started to use Bungard chemicals.
> Let me state that neither he nor I are in any ways related to Bungard.
>
> As mentioned, I will post more information including pictures as soon
> as I'm ready.
>
> Markus
>
> >Markus Zingg wrote:
> >
> >[deleted]
> >>The main advantage
> >> however is independancy and the possibility to have a four layer PCB
> >> completed within say 2 - 3 hours....
> >
> >Multilayer in 2 - 3 hours !  No offense, but that statement
> >made me laugh. Even if you had a fully automated machines
> >that did everything from drill to the final dry, it will
> >take much longer than 3 hours.
> >With your experience of the pattern plated through hole, you
> >must of learned to appreciate the complex nature of the
> >process. As you said earlier its not easy, so unless the
> >hobbyist wants convert to PCB making as their primary
> >interest then plated through holes will be best left to
> >professionals or semi-professionals.
> >
> >I appreciate your enthusiasm in attempting to make plated
> >through hole boards at home. I've always had a interest in
> >chemistry and find the inner workings of the PCB process
> >quite fascinating. I'm interested in the basic method you
> >are using or plan to use. Is it the pattern plating process
> >or the "tent and etch" or the "etch back" process ?
> >
> >In the "etch back" process you take a thin copper clad board
> >18 um or less (1/2 oz/ft^2), apply photoresist, expose,
> >develop, and copper plate the tracks so an additional 35um+
> >is added. Remove the photoresists and etch the whole board
> >until the original 18 um copper cladding is completely
> >etched  and so the thicker tracks are not etched. Obviously
> >this requires an etching apparatus capable of uniform etch,
> >something much better than simple bubble tank.
> >
> >Adam
> >
> >
> >
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> them reasonably.  He has "router bits" listed separately, but "along with"
> the drill-bits, best "deal" I have ever seen.
>
> <A HREF="http://www.tinkers-emporium.com/">Tinkers Emporium
> </A>
> Jan Rowland
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>

>Alrighty folks,
>
>Been busy for the past couple days, but  I've come back with (hopefully) some 
>good news.... a source for eyelets....
>    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
>
>They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing 
>technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru 
>holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require plating 
>thru.
>
>Some technical details on the press tool...
>    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
>
>Other good description of usage...
>    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
>
>Also some great info on PCB repair...
>    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
>
>Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

>is the price there given in per pack of 100 pieces? or am i wrong?
>then it would be VERY expensive.
>
>but the picture of the riveting tool is nice. it is exactly what i thought of.
>even the moveable center piece is exactly like i would have done it.
>but i believe it would also work without the center rod.
>
>the form tool seems very straightforward, it should be easy to make this 
>on a lathe (yea of course i
>have none! hope to be able to do this with a drill press.....).
>
>thank you for the links...
>but first i have to get the rivets....
>
>
>i'm glad to have helped you with this suggestion.
>i really think it is much easier then setting up a chemical process.
>(sure the results can't compete)
>
>regards
>stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>12.05.2003 09:23:42, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>
> >Alrighty folks,
> >
> >Been busy for the past couple days, but  I've come back with (hopefully) 
> some
> >good news.... a source for eyelets....
> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
> >
> >They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
> >technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
> >holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require 
> plating
> >thru.
> >
> >Some technical details on the press tool...
> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
> >
> >Other good description of usage...
> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
> >
> >Also some great info on PCB repair...
> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
> >
> >Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >-Neil.
> >
> >
> >

>Hi, jumping in for the first time on the list,
>
>  On the subject of rivets/eyelets, this link may be of interest. (not sure 
>if they have been mentioned before)
>
>  http://www.intl-eyelets.com/
>
>  They seem to have the same tools (and better pictures) and parts, 
>hopefully at a better price.
>  Not sure if they do small  orders, maybe a group purchase could be arranged.
>
>-carl
>
>
>
>At 12:57 PM 5/12/2003, you wrote:
>>is the price there given in per pack of 100 pieces? or am i wrong?
>>then it would be VERY expensive.
>>
>>but the picture of the riveting tool is nice. it is exactly what i thought of.
>>even the moveable center piece is exactly like i would have done it.
>>but i believe it would also work without the center rod.
>>
>>the form tool seems very straightforward, it should be easy to make this 
>>on a lathe (yea of course i
>>have none! hope to be able to do this with a drill press.....).
>>
>>thank you for the links...
>>but first i have to get the rivets....
>>
>>
>>i'm glad to have helped you with this suggestion.
>>i really think it is much easier then setting up a chemical process.
>>(sure the results can't compete)
>>
>>regards
>>stefan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>12.05.2003 09:23:42, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>>
>> >Alrighty folks,
>> >
>> >Been busy for the past couple days, but  I've come back with (hopefully) 
>> some
>> >good news.... a source for eyelets....
>> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
>> >
>> >They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
>> >technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
>> >holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require 
>> plating
>> >thru.
>> >
>> >Some technical details on the press tool...
>> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
>> >
>> >Other good description of usage...
>> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
>> >
>> >Also some great info on PCB repair...
>> >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
>> >
>> >Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >-Neil.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

> > some
> > >good news.... a source for eyelets....
> > >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
> > >
> > >They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
> > >technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
> > >holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require
> > plating
> > >thru.
> > >
> > >Some technical details on the press tool...
> > >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
> > >
> > >Other good description of usage...
> > >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
> > >
> > >Also some great info on PCB repair...
> > >    http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
> > >
> > >Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >-Neil.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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>
>
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>
>
>

> in school.....
> 
> regards
> st