Homebrew_PCBs

Hi everyone,

I�m new here, I�ve been working with PCB�s for a while and now I want to
start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know how
to make them double sided with many details.
But I couldn�t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
conductive (metalized holes).
Can anyone give me a help with this?

Thank you

Nuno T.


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How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:

- much work
- restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
under an SMD part etc.

Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
(don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.

Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
bath where an electrolytic process is applied.

I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
restricitons mentioned with the above method.

One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
(IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
boards.

If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
goes well I may even finish it this weekend.

HTH

Markus

>Hi everyone,
>
>I’m new here, I’ve been working with PCB’s for a while and now I want to
>start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know how
>to make them double sided with many details.
>But I couldn’t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
>conductive (metalized holes).
>Can anyone give me a help with this?
>
>Thank you
>
>Nuno T.
>
>
>---
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>Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets" that
look like little open cylinders with flanged ends. There is a special tool
that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to connect the sides, and
a component lead can be placed right thru it. I've even heard mention of
being able to use a mechanical pencil instead of the tool. However, I've not
been able to find a local source for this. Heard a recent mention of LPKF as
a possible source, but didn't find it on their site.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:

> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>
> - much work
> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
> under an SMD part etc.
>
> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>
> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>
> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>
> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
> boards.
>
> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>
> HTH
>
> Markus
>
> >Hi everyone,
> >
> >I’m new here, I’ve been working with PCB’s for a while and now I want to
> >start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know
> > how to make them double sided with many details.
> >But I couldn’t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
> >conductive (metalized holes).
> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
> >
> >Thank you
> >
> >Nuno T.
> >
> >
> >---
> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
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> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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In a message dated 5/9/2003 6:39:23 PM Central Standard Time, m.zingg@...
writes:

> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals.

Markus!

Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply them!
(Temperature? catalysts? time in bath? USW!)

Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!

But remember! The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!

Thanks! Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm interested.
Cristian

>
> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
> Markus
>

i have seen them also. (neil's)
these cylinders look like pop rivets, but thinner wall (and of course no shaft).
you simply apply them by tining one side of the board, then using a homebrew soldering iron tip (which
has a narrow tip and after a mm from the tip or so a broader shaft).
you put the rivet on the soldering iron (flanged end back) and put it in. press a second and the tinned
surface of the board solders the flange to this side so only soldering in bottom is necessary. (to this
i also read they conducted thests with NOT AT ALL soldering the flange at the top side, only placing it
in cold and soldering bottom (no, the top wasn't tinned so that the tin meltet when soldering bottom)
and they had no single connection (of i don't know how much) which had no contact. but i won't trust
this (oxidation).

my personal idea of placing them is to put a number of them on a piece of hard wire with the right
diameter and go with this from hole to hole, the rivets sliding down. after that simply press on the top
with dry flat soldering iron tip. this should be faster and doesn't require a special tip for holding
them.

the version i described is the one of solid copper, which is really a pipe and not filled.

i believe the version neil has heard of is the following:
think of soldering tin, it has the diameter of the hole but slightly thinner.
then put a layer of copper on the outer surface.
then cut it to small pieces of pcb with (but maybe don't cut through to keep it as a bar and not tiny
pieces). then insert a piece in a pcb and mechanically "rivet" it in like they did (do) with rivets in
bridges or boats, from both sides with a hammer or press.
then melt the tin out and put your lead in.
this leaves the small copper walling very similar to electroplated but dry.
i heard this has the disadvantage that you should have cleaned the drill holes with strong acid (to make
the fibers stick out and remove the "smeared" epoxy (which can melt).
therefore it that tool neil described, and a mecanical pen can be used. you insert such a piece and then
brake the rest off and go to the next.
a pen can't be used with the upper rivets because the flange would jam it.


a third version (which i don't like) is the following:
there are sold small pieces of copper, each a bit longer than the pcb.
these are conic shaped, a tipped end is inserted in the hole and the thicker end gets stuck at a certain
point and holds it there.
they are also put together on a rod one after the other for easier handling.
you simply put in, break, put in, break. at the end solder both sides.

there is no possibility for putting a wire of a component through with this method.


the first riveting method may be improoved by riveting them really in, pressing a flange on the bottom
after inserting. but this needs good riveting tool in a press, i have no lathe which would be a help in
experimenting and making this tool. but it also isn't needed at all. works fine so.

this are all non-chemical through holing methods i know (without "take a wire and a iron and solder on
both sides")

regards
stefan










10.05.2003 02:06:18, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:

>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets" that
>look like little open cylinders with flanged ends. There is a special tool
>that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to connect the sides, and
>a component lead can be placed right thru it. I've even heard mention of
>being able to use a mechanical pencil instead of the tool. However, I've not
>been able to find a local source for this. Heard a recent mention of LPKF as
>a possible source, but didn't find it on their site.
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>>
>> - much work
>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
>> under an SMD part etc.
>>
>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>>
>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>>
>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>>
>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
>> boards.
>>
>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> >Hi everyone,
>> >
>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want to
>> >start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know
>> > how to make them double sided with many details.
>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
>> >conductive (metalized holes).
>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
>> >
>> >Thank you
>> >
>> >Nuno T.
>> >
>> >
>> >---
>> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
>> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
>> >
>> >
>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> >
>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

here are the urls for the rivets:
http://www.bungard.com/seiten/p-favorit.htm

lpkf has them (or a other brand)
http://www.lpkfusa.com/Store/ProductList.asp?Category=Through-Hole%20Plating%20-%20EasyContac

reichelt in germany has them also
but they only take 19eur / 1000pcb.
i believe lpkf also ships the tool along with 1000rivets, therefore they are so expensive.

is anyone here who has enough knowelede about riveting or owns such a tool and may describe its cross
section? maybe i can make one with a drill press as a substitute for the lathe.
i now think the press doesn't need to be heated as the bungard press isn't. it may work fine to rivet it
together and after that reflow the tin or apply new one.

regards
stefan


10.05.2003 09:51:09, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>i have seen them also. (neil's)
>these cylinders look like pop rivets, but thinner wall (and of course no shaft).
>you simply apply them by tining one side of the board, then using a homebrew soldering iron tip (which
>has a narrow tip and after a mm from the tip or so a broader shaft).
>you put the rivet on the soldering iron (flanged end back) and put it in. press a second and the tinned
>surface of the board solders the flange to this side so only soldering in bottom is necessary. (to this
>i also read they conducted thests with NOT AT ALL soldering the flange at the top side, only placing it
>in cold and soldering bottom (no, the top wasn't tinned so that the tin meltet when soldering bottom)
>and they had no single connection (of i don't know how much) which had no contact. but i won't trust
>this (oxidation).
>
>my personal idea of placing them is to put a number of them on a piece of hard wire with the right
>diameter and go with this from hole to hole, the rivets sliding down. after that simply press on the

top

>with dry flat soldering iron tip. this should be faster and doesn't require a special tip for holding
>them.
>
>the version i described is the one of solid copper, which is really a pipe and not filled.
>
>i believe the version neil has heard of is the following:
>think of soldering tin, it has the diameter of the hole but slightly thinner.
>then put a layer of copper on the outer surface.
>then cut it to small pieces of pcb with (but maybe don't cut through to keep it as a bar and not tiny
>pieces). then insert a piece in a pcb and mechanically "rivet" it in like they did (do) with rivets in
>bridges or boats, from both sides with a hammer or press.
>then melt the tin out and put your lead in.
>this leaves the small copper walling very similar to electroplated but dry.
>i heard this has the disadvantage that you should have cleaned the drill holes with strong acid (to

make

>the fibers stick out and remove the "smeared" epoxy (which can melt).
>therefore it that tool neil described, and a mecanical pen can be used. you insert such a piece and

then

>brake the rest off and go to the next.
>a pen can't be used with the upper rivets because the flange would jam it.
>
>
>a third version (which i don't like) is the following:
>there are sold small pieces of copper, each a bit longer than the pcb.
>these are conic shaped, a tipped end is inserted in the hole and the thicker end gets stuck at a

certain

>point and holds it there.
>they are also put together on a rod one after the other for easier handling.
>you simply put in, break, put in, break. at the end solder both sides.
>
>there is no possibility for putting a wire of a component through with this method.
>
>
>the first riveting method may be improoved by riveting them really in, pressing a flange on the bottom
>after inserting. but this needs good riveting tool in a press, i have no lathe which would be a help in
>experimenting and making this tool. but it also isn't needed at all. works fine so.
>
>this are all non-chemical through holing methods i know (without "take a wire and a iron and solder on
>both sides")
>
>regards
>stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>10.05.2003 02:06:18, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>
>>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets" that
>>look like little open cylinders with flanged ends. There is a special tool
>>that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to connect the sides, and
>>a component lead can be placed right thru it. I've even heard mention of
>>being able to use a mechanical pencil instead of the tool. However, I've not
>>been able to find a local source for this. Heard a recent mention of LPKF as
>>a possible source, but didn't find it on their site.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>-Neil.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
>>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
>>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
>>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
>>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>>>
>>> - much work
>>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
>>> under an SMD part etc.
>>>
>>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
>>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
>>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>>>
>>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
>>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
>>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
>>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
>>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>>>
>>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
>>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
>>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
>>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>>>
>>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
>>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
>>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
>>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
>>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
>>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
>>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
>>> boards.
>>>
>>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
>>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
>>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>>> >Hi everyone,
>>> >
>>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want to
>>> >start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to know
>>> > how to make them double sided with many details.
>>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component holes
>>> >conductive (metalized holes).
>>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
>>> >
>>> >Thank you
>>> >
>>> >Nuno T.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >---
>>> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
>>> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>> >
>>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Thanks for the sources Stefan. The only one here in the US is LPKF, and they
are quite expensive -- if I wanted to experiment with say 3 different sizes
(most of my boards are ~5-6 different sized holes), it would cost me $45 x 3
= $135! Perhaps I might get some and split them up in groups of 100 for
others who want to try them .... hmmmm???

On the bungard site, the photo of the tool "head" reminds me of a the AN flare
tool for flaring brake lines. The LPKF site lists a "spare anvil", which
could be the head of the tool. It's only $10, so perhaps it might be worth
it to by this part and fabricate the rest of this tool myself.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Saturday 10 May 2003 04:28, Stefan Trethan scribbled:

> here are the urls for the rivets:
> http://www.bungard.com/seiten/p-favorit.htm
>
> lpkf has them (or a other brand)
> http://www.lpkfusa.com/Store/ProductList.asp?Category=Through-Hole%20Platin
>g%20-%20EasyContac
>
> reichelt in germany has them also
> but they only take 19eur / 1000pcb.
> i believe lpkf also ships the tool along with 1000rivets, therefore they
> are so expensive.
>
> is anyone here who has enough knowelede about riveting or owns such a tool
> and may describe its cross section? maybe i can make one with a drill press
> as a substitute for the lathe. i now think the press doesn't need to be
> heated as the bungard press isn't. it may work fine to rivet it together
> and after that reflow the tin or apply new one.
>
> regards
> stefan
>
> 10.05.2003 09:51:09, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> >i have seen them also. (neil's)
> >these cylinders look like pop rivets, but thinner wall (and of course no
> > shaft). you simply apply them by tining one side of the board, then using
> > a homebrew soldering iron tip (which has a narrow tip and after a mm from
> > the tip or so a broader shaft). you put the rivet on the soldering iron
> > (flanged end back) and put it in. press a second and the tinned surface
> > of the board solders the flange to this side so only soldering in bottom
> > is necessary. (to this i also read they conducted thests with NOT AT ALL
> > soldering the flange at the top side, only placing it in cold and
> > soldering bottom (no, the top wasn't tinned so that the tin meltet when
> > soldering bottom) and they had no single connection (of i don't know how
> > much) which had no contact. but i won't trust this (oxidation).
> >
> >my personal idea of placing them is to put a number of them on a piece of
> > hard wire with the right diameter and go with this from hole to hole, the
> > rivets sliding down. after that simply press on the
>
> top
>
> >with dry flat soldering iron tip. this should be faster and doesn't
> > require a special tip for holding them.
> >
> >the version i described is the one of solid copper, which is really a pipe
> > and not filled.
> >
> >i believe the version neil has heard of is the following:
> >think of soldering tin, it has the diameter of the hole but slightly
> > thinner. then put a layer of copper on the outer surface.
> >then cut it to small pieces of pcb with (but maybe don't cut through to
> > keep it as a bar and not tiny pieces). then insert a piece in a pcb and
> > mechanically "rivet" it in like they did (do) with rivets in bridges or
> > boats, from both sides with a hammer or press.
> >then melt the tin out and put your lead in.
> >this leaves the small copper walling very similar to electroplated but
> > dry. i heard this has the disadvantage that you should have cleaned the
> > drill holes with strong acid (to
>
> make
>
> >the fibers stick out and remove the "smeared" epoxy (which can melt).
> >therefore it that tool neil described, and a mecanical pen can be used.
> > you insert such a piece and
>
> then
>
> >brake the rest off and go to the next.
> >a pen can't be used with the upper rivets because the flange would jam it.
> >
> >
> >a third version (which i don't like) is the following:
> >there are sold small pieces of copper, each a bit longer than the pcb.
> >these are conic shaped, a tipped end is inserted in the hole and the
> > thicker end gets stuck at a
>
> certain
>
> >point and holds it there.
> >they are also put together on a rod one after the other for easier
> > handling. you simply put in, break, put in, break. at the end solder both
> > sides.
> >
> >there is no possibility for putting a wire of a component through with
> > this method.
> >
> >
> >the first riveting method may be improoved by riveting them really in,
> > pressing a flange on the bottom after inserting. but this needs good
> > riveting tool in a press, i have no lathe which would be a help in
> > experimenting and making this tool. but it also isn't needed at all.
> > works fine so.
> >
> >this are all non-chemical through holing methods i know (without "take a
> > wire and a iron and solder on both sides")
> >
> >regards
> >stefan
> >
> >10.05.2003 02:06:18, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
> >>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets"
> >> that look like little open cylinders with flanged ends. There is a
> >> special tool that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to
> >> connect the sides, and a component lead can be placed right thru it.
> >> I've even heard mention of being able to use a mechanical pencil instead
> >> of the tool. However, I've not been able to find a local source for
> >> this. Heard a recent mention of LPKF as a possible source, but didn't
> >> find it on their site.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>-Neil.
> >>
> >>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
> >>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
> >>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
> >>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
> >>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
> >>>
> >>> - much work
> >>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
> >>> under an SMD part etc.
> >>>
> >>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
> >>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
> >>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
> >>>
> >>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
> >>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
> >>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
> >>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
> >>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
> >>>
> >>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
> >>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
> >>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
> >>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
> >>>
> >>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
> >>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
> >>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
> >>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
> >>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
> >>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
> >>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
> >>> boards.
> >>>
> >>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
> >>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
> >>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
> >>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
> >>>
> >>> HTH
> >>>
> >>> Markus
> >>>
> >>> >Hi everyone,
> >>> >
> >>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want
> >>> > to start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
> >>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to
> >>> > know how to make them double sided with many details.
> >>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component
> >>> > holes conductive (metalized holes).
> >>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
> >>> >
> >>> >Thank you
> >>> >
> >>> >Nuno T.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >---
> >>> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
> >>> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >>> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>> >
> >>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
> >>
> >>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>
> >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
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> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
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>
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> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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>
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yes they are expensive.
but this is not a solution for making boards with hundreds of plated through holes.

i think you may also use only one size to start with, lets say 0,8 or so.
if you have to do bigger component leads you would need to place the rived near them and drill unplated
holes and solder from bottom.
but you are right, $40 is very much.. eur 19 in germany is much better.
for me buying in germany is the only option (and the cheapest).

the riveting tool seems to be the same as the one used for riveting normal hollow rivets.
i have once used such a device and it looked pretty simple. it has a "donut" shaped cutout on the bottom
part to fold the rivet the right shape.
i think it can be easily made with a lathe..
but really riveting them on wouldn't be needed at all.
simply pres them in, solder the upper ring (reflow).
then a small end of the pipe sticks out at the bottom. simply solder that like a thick component wire.
in that "hollow wire" you put the actual component wire and solder also, maybe put it in before
soldering so it is no problem if you get solder sucking into the pipe.

regards
stefan

is there really no other source in the us??





10.05.2003 11:42:05, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:

>Thanks for the sources Stefan. The only one here in the US is LPKF, and they
>are quite expensive -- if I wanted to experiment with say 3 different sizes
>(most of my boards are ~5-6 different sized holes), it would cost me $45 x 3
>= $135! Perhaps I might get some and split them up in groups of 100 for
>others who want to try them .... hmmmm???
>
>On the bungard site, the photo of the tool "head" reminds me of a the AN flare
>tool for flaring brake lines. The LPKF site lists a "spare anvil", which
>could be the head of the tool. It's only $10, so perhaps it might be worth
>it to by this part and fabricate the rest of this tool myself.
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Saturday 10 May 2003 04:28, Stefan Trethan scribbled:
>> here are the urls for the rivets:
>> http://www.bungard.com/seiten/p-favorit.htm
>>
>> lpkf has them (or a other brand)
>> http://www.lpkfusa.com/Store/ProductList.asp?Category=Through-Hole%20Platin
>>g%20-%20EasyContac
>>
>> reichelt in germany has them also
>> but they only take 19eur / 1000pcb.
>> i believe lpkf also ships the tool along with 1000rivets, therefore they
>> are so expensive.
>>
>> is anyone here who has enough knowelede about riveting or owns such a tool
>> and may describe its cross section? maybe i can make one with a drill press
>> as a substitute for the lathe. i now think the press doesn't need to be
>> heated as the bungard press isn't. it may work fine to rivet it together
>> and after that reflow the tin or apply new one.
>>
>> regards
>> stefan
>>
>> 10.05.2003 09:51:09, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>> >i have seen them also. (neil's)
>> >these cylinders look like pop rivets, but thinner wall (and of course no
>> > shaft). you simply apply them by tining one side of the board, then using
>> > a homebrew soldering iron tip (which has a narrow tip and after a mm from
>> > the tip or so a broader shaft). you put the rivet on the soldering iron
>> > (flanged end back) and put it in. press a second and the tinned surface
>> > of the board solders the flange to this side so only soldering in bottom
>> > is necessary. (to this i also read they conducted thests with NOT AT ALL
>> > soldering the flange at the top side, only placing it in cold and
>> > soldering bottom (no, the top wasn't tinned so that the tin meltet when
>> > soldering bottom) and they had no single connection (of i don't know how
>> > much) which had no contact. but i won't trust this (oxidation).
>> >
>> >my personal idea of placing them is to put a number of them on a piece of
>> > hard wire with the right diameter and go with this from hole to hole, the
>> > rivets sliding down. after that simply press on the
>>
>> top
>>
>> >with dry flat soldering iron tip. this should be faster and doesn't
>> > require a special tip for holding them.
>> >
>> >the version i described is the one of solid copper, which is really a pipe
>> > and not filled.
>> >
>> >i believe the version neil has heard of is the following:
>> >think of soldering tin, it has the diameter of the hole but slightly
>> > thinner. then put a layer of copper on the outer surface.
>> >then cut it to small pieces of pcb with (but maybe don't cut through to
>> > keep it as a bar and not tiny pieces). then insert a piece in a pcb and
>> > mechanically "rivet" it in like they did (do) with rivets in bridges or
>> > boats, from both sides with a hammer or press.
>> >then melt the tin out and put your lead in.
>> >this leaves the small copper walling very similar to electroplated but
>> > dry. i heard this has the disadvantage that you should have cleaned the
>> > drill holes with strong acid (to
>>
>> make
>>
>> >the fibers stick out and remove the "smeared" epoxy (which can melt).
>> >therefore it that tool neil described, and a mecanical pen can be used.
>> > you insert such a piece and
>>
>> then
>>
>> >brake the rest off and go to the next.
>> >a pen can't be used with the upper rivets because the flange would jam it.
>> >
>> >
>> >a third version (which i don't like) is the following:
>> >there are sold small pieces of copper, each a bit longer than the pcb.
>> >these are conic shaped, a tipped end is inserted in the hole and the
>> > thicker end gets stuck at a
>>
>> certain
>>
>> >point and holds it there.
>> >they are also put together on a rod one after the other for easier
>> > handling. you simply put in, break, put in, break. at the end solder both
>> > sides.
>> >
>> >there is no possibility for putting a wire of a component through with
>> > this method.
>> >
>> >
>> >the first riveting method may be improoved by riveting them really in,
>> > pressing a flange on the bottom after inserting. but this needs good
>> > riveting tool in a press, i have no lathe which would be a help in
>> > experimenting and making this tool. but it also isn't needed at all.
>> > works fine so.
>> >
>> >this are all non-chemical through holing methods i know (without "take a
>> > wire and a iron and solder on both sides")
>> >
>> >regards
>> >stefan
>> >
>> >10.05.2003 02:06:18, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>> >>There is one other method I've heard of, which is to use small "eyelets"
>> >> that look like little open cylinders with flanged ends. There is a
>> >> special tool that's used to insert this in the holes of the PCB, to
>> >> connect the sides, and a component lead can be placed right thru it.
>> >> I've even heard mention of being able to use a mechanical pencil instead
>> >> of the tool. However, I've not been able to find a local source for
>> >> this. Heard a recent mention of LPKF as a possible source, but didn't
>> >> find it on their site.
>> >>
>> >>Cheers,
>> >>-Neil.
>> >>
>> >>On Friday 09 May 2003 18:37, Markus Zingg scribbled:
>> >>> How this is done depends on a number of factors. The easiest way is to
>> >>> just put some wire through the holes and solder it on the top and
>> >>> bottom layer. Aside of the obvious advantage of simpleness and
>> >>> cheapness, this method is having some disadvantages like:
>> >>>
>> >>> - much work
>> >>> - restrictions on where such vias can reside (i.e. you can't put them
>> >>> under an SMD part etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Variants of the above method exist in that you can have finished wires
>> >>> (don't know the exact english term for this) which you can insert with
>> >>> a tool, but the soldering and the placement restrictions are the same.
>> >>>
>> >>> Real through hole plating must be done using a through hole plating
>> >>> station which consist of several tanks holding chemicals. The PCB then
>> >>> must be delved into them, moved within them back an forth (so as the
>> >>> fluids can flow through the holes). The last step is then a copper
>> >>> bath where an electrolytic process is applied.
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm right now in the process of building my own through plating
>> >>> station - it's an ugly whole lot of work, but I too got sick of either
>> >>> waiting for others to make my PCB's for my money or having
>> >>> restricitons mentioned with the above method.
>> >>>
>> >>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
>> >>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals. There is much
>> >>> experience in there and the companies who produce such chemicals of
>> >>> course treate them as a big secret. I too had to bit the bullet and
>> >>> buy finished mixtures. I bought them from Bungard which is a germany
>> >>> based firm. In the end I will have my own through hole plating station
>> >>> with 5 tanks which puts me in the position of creating even multilayer
>> >>> boards.
>> >>>
>> >>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>> >>> station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
>> >>> for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
>> >>> goes well I may even finish it this weekend.
>> >>>
>> >>> HTH
>> >>>
>> >>> Markus
>> >>>
>> >>> >Hi everyone,
>> >>> >
>> >>> >I?m new here, I?ve been working with PCB?s for a while and now I want
>> >>> > to start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
>> >>> >I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to
>> >>> > know how to make them double sided with many details.
>> >>> >But I couldn?t find almost a thing about how to make the component
>> >>> > holes conductive (metalized holes).
>> >>> >Can anyone give me a help with this?
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Thank you
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Nuno T.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >---
>> >>> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free
>> >>> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> >>> >Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 24-04-2003
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> >>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> >>> >
>> >>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> >>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> >>> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> >>>
>> >>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> >>>
>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> >>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> >>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ---
>> >>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
>> >>
>> >>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> >>
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>> >>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >
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>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
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>>
>>
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>>
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>
>

>> One of the bigger obstacles when it comes to through hole plating
>> (IMHO of course) is getting the right chemicals.
>
>Markus!
>
>Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply them!
>(Temperature? catalysts? time in bath? USW!)
>
>Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
>
>But remember! The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
>
>Thanks! Jan Rowland

Again, as soon as I'm ready (my wife aparently had some different
plans for this weekend so I'm not sure if I can finish it this
weekend) I will post a link with some photos and more information. It
is quite some work to build such a station, and while the chemicals
were not cheap, I'm still very sure that in the mid to longer run this
is the cheapest way to get multilayer PCB's. The main advantage
however is independancy and the possibility to have a four layer PCB
completed within say 2 - 3 hours. I'm really sick of waiting for PCB's
made by others. So again, I will be happy to share my experience as
soon as I'm there - and :-) no worries, I'm fully aware of what's
needed for the plating through process.

Markus

Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had laying
around in my bookmarks....
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm

(I've never experimented with this though).

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:

> Markus!
>
> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply them!
> (Temperature? catalysts? time in bath? USW!)
>
> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
>
> But remember! The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
>
> Thanks! Jan Rowland

hmm the guys from bungard don't like this.
they say it has too high resistance.

http://www.bungard.com/downloads/ANTI_E.PDF
somewhere in there...

regards
st

10.05.2003 18:30:02, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:

>Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had laying
>around in my bookmarks....
> http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm
>
>(I've never experimented with this though).
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:
>> Markus!
>>
>> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply them!
>> (Temperature? catalysts? time in bath? USW!)
>>
>> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
>>
>> But remember! The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
>>
>> Thanks! Jan Rowland
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On Friday 09 May 2003 03:08 pm, Nuno-T wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I’m new here, I’ve been working with PCB’s for a while and now I
> want to start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
> I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to
> know how to make them double sided with many details.
> But I couldn’t find almost a thing about how to make the component
> holes conductive (metalized holes).
> Can anyone give me a help with this?

What about the snap-off pins that you press into the hole by hand and
then snap off and solder?

--
Ned Konz
http://bike-nomad.com
GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

> It's only $10, so perhaps it might be worth
> it to by this part and fabricate the rest of this tool myself.
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.

I own the Bungard's original press.There is no need to buy the full press.
One handy man can buy only the two parts (see Neil's mail) of the active
head and to adapt a press from a drill-holder-press to accomodate them. Or
to use any other hand press.
Cristian

I have to laugh! They start of by saying "Please consider the following as an
open minded statement that...",
then later state "...isolation milling is a slow, expensive, almost 30 years
old attempt to be different by someone who had a paranoia against chemical
etching".

Whether true or false, it's opinionated and obviously written in a tone that
screams desperation to not lose support for their products/methods. They
also state things, but don't explain why.

Yes, they're comparing PCB milling machines here and not specifically
thru-hole activation, but I think that machines like LPKF would be great for
other uses -- like they can engrave front panels for electronic projects,
etc.

As for thru-hole plating, whenever I solder a component lead in a plated hole,
the solder always wicks itself thru the hole and over to the other side. For
flexible wires, I purposely add more solder so it builds up on the opposite
side, so I get a better mechanical hold. My guess is that even if there is
resistance with the "conductive paste" method, the solder will fill the gaps
and conduct properly. Of course, this is my thought/guess, as I've never
done this before.

I'm going to ignore that whole article as *desperate* marketing hype.

-Neil.



On Saturday 10 May 2003 11:53, Stefan Trethan scribbled:

> hmm the guys from bungard don't like this.
> they say it has too high resistance.
>
> http://www.bungard.com/downloads/ANTI_E.PDF
> somewhere in there...
>
> regards
> st
>
> 10.05.2003 18:30:02, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
> >Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had
> > laying around in my bookmarks....
> > http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm
> >
> >(I've never experimented with this though).
> >
> >Cheers,
> >-Neil.
> >
> >On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:
> >> Markus!
> >>
> >> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply
> >> them! (Temperature? catalysts? time in bath? USW!)
> >>
> >> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
> >>
> >> But remember! The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
> >>
> >> Thanks! Jan Rowland
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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no, i have understood this very different.

they actually produce and sell their own milling machines as you might have read.
i think these guys are simply somehow angry about the restrictions given with milling.
i very like this article, it clearly says "hey, milling can be done but if you want go professional and
want to come somewhere near industry standard you simply have to do it wet"

i think it is really no, NO option for a modern pcb to produce it with milling.
this can only be done with simple designs, i don't know how you should make, lets say a smd board with
milling. but for sure it is a nice simple process for homebrew pcb or also maybe prototyping for
companies who make very simple pcbs.

"...old attempt to be different by someone who had a paranoia against chemical

>etching" for me this sound not like "hey the guys who sell mills are stupid, by our chemicals" but much

more "we really have tried it, it is much more easy to set up a wet process, even cheaper, and you can
get results with it which are out of comparison".

they also say the mills are great for other things (especially they are very proud of having this
motorized z axis... ;-) .


i have no idea how this paste performs but i too don't like the idea.

i only have seen one device with such a hole plating.
this was a old cd drive. in the holes it has "drops" of some grey material, looking like soldering paste
for smd but seems solid. this filled the hole fully up and had a little hill on each side to connect to
the tracks. i have no idea what was the reason but the cd-rom failed ..... this connections only have
been without pins in it.

regards
st



10.05.2003 20:34:25, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:

>I have to laugh! They start of by saying "Please consider the following as an
>open minded statement that...",
>then later state "...isolation milling is a slow, expensive, almost 30 years
>old attempt to be different by someone who had a paranoia against chemical
>etching".
>
>Whether true or false, it's opinionated and obviously written in a tone that
>screams desperation to not lose support for their products/methods. They
>also state things, but don't explain why.
>
>Yes, they're comparing PCB milling machines here and not specifically
>thru-hole activation, but I think that machines like LPKF would be great for
>other uses -- like they can engrave front panels for electronic projects,
>etc.
>
>As for thru-hole plating, whenever I solder a component lead in a plated hole,
>the solder always wicks itself thru the hole and over to the other side. For
>flexible wires, I purposely add more solder so it builds up on the opposite
>side, so I get a better mechanical hold. My guess is that even if there is
>resistance with the "conductive paste" method, the solder will fill the gaps
>and conduct properly. Of course, this is my thought/guess, as I've never
>done this before.
>
>I'm going to ignore that whole article as *desperate* marketing hype.
>
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>On Saturday 10 May 2003 11:53, Stefan Trethan scribbled:
>> hmm the guys from bungard don't like this.
>> they say it has too high resistance.
>>
>> http://www.bungard.com/downloads/ANTI_E.PDF
>> somewhere in there...
>>
>> regards
>> st
>>
>> 10.05.2003 18:30:02, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>> >Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had
>> > laying around in my bookmarks....
>> > http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm
>> >
>> >(I've never experimented with this though).
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >-Neil.
>> >
>> >On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:
>> >> Markus!
>> >>
>> >> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply
>> >> them! (Temperature? catalysts? time in bath? USW!)
>> >>
>> >> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
>> >>
>> >> But remember! The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
>> >>
>> >> Thanks! Jan Rowland
>> >
>> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> >
>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
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>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>> ---
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>
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>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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>

>What about the snap-off pins that you press into the hole by hand and
>then snap off and solder?

This is - in priciple - the same thing as using a wire and solder it
on both ends. The only difference is that those pins remain better in
the holes and hence soldering is slightly easier. The same
disadvantages to using a simple wire apply here namely:

- limitts you to double sided layouts
- you can't put vias below SMD parts.
- very time consuming to solder with PCB's having > 100 pieces of
them.

Markus

Ok, I definately will create a little page and post the link then.

Markus

>I'm interested.
>Cristian
>>
>> If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
>> Markus

Neil, you are 100% right. If the solder is wicking to the other side, you do
not have a problem with resistance from the process used for plating. The
solder and the component lead are your conductor at this point. I also read
that article and thought it was very opinionated for some reason.
-Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil" <cobra_neil@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Metalized holes


> I have to laugh! They start of by saying "Please consider the following
as an
> open minded statement that...",
> then later state "...isolation milling is a slow, expensive, almost 30
years
> old attempt to be different by someone who had a paranoia against chemical
> etching".
>
> Whether true or false, it's opinionated and obviously written in a tone
that
> screams desperation to not lose support for their products/methods. They
> also state things, but don't explain why.
>
> Yes, they're comparing PCB milling machines here and not specifically
> thru-hole activation, but I think that machines like LPKF would be great
for
> other uses -- like they can engrave front panels for electronic projects,
> etc.
>
> As for thru-hole plating, whenever I solder a component lead in a plated
hole,
> the solder always wicks itself thru the hole and over to the other side.
For
> flexible wires, I purposely add more solder so it builds up on the
opposite
> side, so I get a better mechanical hold. My guess is that even if there
is
> resistance with the "conductive paste" method, the solder will fill the
gaps
> and conduct properly. Of course, this is my thought/guess, as I've never
> done this before.
>
> I'm going to ignore that whole article as *desperate* marketing hype.
>
> -Neil.
>
>
>
> On Saturday 10 May 2003 11:53, Stefan Trethan scribbled:
> > hmm the guys from bungard don't like this.
> > they say it has too high resistance.
> >
> > http://www.bungard.com/downloads/ANTI_E.PDF
> > somewhere in there...
> >
> > regards
> > st
> >
> > 10.05.2003 18:30:02, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
> > >Here's one system/source for chemical thru-hole plating that I've had
> > > laying around in my bookmarks....
> > > http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/condink.htm
> > >
> > >(I've never experimented with this though).
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >-Neil.
> > >
> > >On Friday 09 May 2003 19:29, JanRwl@... scribbled:
> > >> Markus!
> > >>
> > >> Please let us know what those "right chemicals" are, and how to apply
> > >> them! (Temperature? catalysts? time in bath? USW!)
> > >>
> > >> Then, what current (Strom, Amperes) per 0.1 m^2 to plate-through!
> > >>
> > >> But remember! The plating-through is done BEFORE etching!
> > >>
> > >> Thanks! Jan Rowland
> > >
> > >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > >
> > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > ---
> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses]
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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>
>

Hi,

I’ve seen these pins, but they are not hollow. They are good to use in ‘vias
’ (holes without components)
What about the holes that have to hold components later? (the kind of
components that cannot be soldered both sides)
I’ve heard of a kind of pins that are hollow but never seen them anywhere on
sale. Do you know of any good supplier?

Thank you

Nuno T.

On Friday 09 May 2003 03:08 pm, Nuno-T wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I’m new here, I’ve been working with PCB’s for a while and now I
> want to start making my own boards for a great number of reasons.
> I found enought info on the net and in this group archive files to
> know how to make them double sided with many details.
> But I couldn’t find almost a thing about how to make the component
> holes conductive (metalized holes).
> Can anyone give me a help with this?

What about the snap-off pins that you press into the hole by hand and
then snap off and solder?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, Markus

Yes, I’m interested in such a link. Please post it as soon as it is
available.
Can you tell us more about those chemicals you mentioned?

Thank you

Nuno T.


If the people on this list are interested I will post a link once the
station is finished so as others may can use it as a starting point
for their own constrtuction. I'm pretty far already, that is if all
goes well I may even finish it this weekend.

HTH

Markus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Markus Zingg wrote:

[deleted]

>The main advantage
> however is independancy and the possibility to have a four layer PCB
> completed within say 2 - 3 hours....

Multilayer in 2 - 3 hours ! No offense, but that statement
made me laugh. Even if you had a fully automated machines
that did everything from drill to the final dry, it will
take much longer than 3 hours.
With your experience of the pattern plated through hole, you
must of learned to appreciate the complex nature of the
process. As you said earlier its not easy, so unless the
hobbyist wants convert to PCB making as their primary
interest then plated through holes will be best left to
professionals or semi-professionals.

I appreciate your enthusiasm in attempting to make plated
through hole boards at home. I've always had a interest in
chemistry and find the inner workings of the PCB process
quite fascinating. I'm interested in the basic method you
are using or plan to use. Is it the pattern plating process
or the "tent and etch" or the "etch back" process ?

In the "etch back" process you take a thin copper clad board
18 um or less (1/2 oz/ft^2), apply photoresist, expose,
develop, and copper plate the tracks so an additional 35um+
is added. Remove the photoresists and etch the whole board
until the original 18 um copper cladding is completely
etched and so the thicker tracks are not etched. Obviously
this requires an etching apparatus capable of uniform etch,
something much better than simple bubble tank.

Adam

Ok, let me get a bit more specific.

The process obviousely depends on wether a two layer or four layer PCB
is to be made. I use 18um copper plated base material. In case of a
two layer board this is of 1.5 mm thikness, in case of a four layer
one 0.5 mm only. First step is to drill all holes through all layers.
In case of four layers, I screw the layers together using two
diagonaly positioned screws that I place outside of the final PCB
area. Then comes the plaiting trhough process of the inner layer
(obviousely there is only one inner layer with two sided PCB's). After
this I laminate a photoresist film onto the two sides of the PCB (or
inner layer respectively). The result is then exposed and etched, then
the remaining part of the photoresist is removed by exposing the whole
print once more and develop (which will completely remove the
remaining parts of the photoresist). If this is going to be a four
layer PCB, the outer layers are glued onto the two sides of the inner
layer using a thin film of 5 minute epoxy. The previousely two screw
holes are now used to propperly align the layers. After this I drill
all holes once more to remove glue. After this the whole PCB is once
more through plated, the outer surfaces are laminated with photoresist
film, exposed, developped, etched and reexposed developped to remove
the remaining parts of photoresist.

Now to the time it takes:

exposure = 1.5 minutes per run
develop = 1 minute
laminateing = ~1.5 minutes per side
plate trhough run = 30 minutes up to ~1 hour depending on size of pcb
etching = ~4 minutes.
drill the holes = ( I do it manually. The photofilm is manually
alligned so as it matches the alredy present holes) - depending on the
board but rarely more than 30 minutes.
Glueing = ~15 minutes

The times needed of course vary depending on the size and complexity
of the PCB and of course wether its a two layer or four layer one.
Bigger PCB's may take longer than 3 hours, but I think that 4 hours
should be sufficient in mostly all cases. I must add though that I do
not apply a solder stop mask or anything else because the PCB's I
create are exclusively used for prototypes.

The chemicals I use are partially concentrates and partially ready
made mixtures which can be bought from Bungard. The photoresist is
also from Bungard. I will list them in detail later, but they do only
have "brand kind" of names which don't tell much about what they
consist of like C400 and names like this.

The method used was shown to me by a friend I got to know through an
electronic online forum in the internet (in case you read this - thank
you John). I visited him so as he could show everything to me and he
was kind enough to explain everything to me in detail. I personally
asisted a plating through process and the result was simply stunning.
From what I understood the speed of the plating through process and
the quality of the result extremly depends on the chemicals used. He
had much inferior results before he started to use Bungard chemicals.
Let me state that neither he nor I are in any ways related to Bungard.

As mentioned, I will post more information including pictures as soon
as I'm ready.

Markus

>Markus Zingg wrote:
>
>[deleted]
>>The main advantage
>> however is independancy and the possibility to have a four layer PCB
>> completed within say 2 - 3 hours....
>
>Multilayer in 2 - 3 hours ! No offense, but that statement
>made me laugh. Even if you had a fully automated machines
>that did everything from drill to the final dry, it will
>take much longer than 3 hours.
>With your experience of the pattern plated through hole, you
>must of learned to appreciate the complex nature of the
>process. As you said earlier its not easy, so unless the
>hobbyist wants convert to PCB making as their primary
>interest then plated through holes will be best left to
>professionals or semi-professionals.
>
>I appreciate your enthusiasm in attempting to make plated
>through hole boards at home. I've always had a interest in
>chemistry and find the inner workings of the PCB process
>quite fascinating. I'm interested in the basic method you
>are using or plan to use. Is it the pattern plating process
>or the "tent and etch" or the "etch back" process ?
>
>In the "etch back" process you take a thin copper clad board
>18 um or less (1/2 oz/ft^2), apply photoresist, expose,
>develop, and copper plate the tracks so an additional 35um+
>is added. Remove the photoresists and etch the whole board
>until the original 18 um copper cladding is completely
>etched and so the thicker tracks are not etched. Obviously
>this requires an etching apparatus capable of uniform etch,
>something much better than simple bubble tank.
>
>Adam
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

You raving lunatic moderator,
Steve

In a message dated 5/10/2003 2:50:02 AM Central Standard Time,
stefan_trethan@... writes:

> these cylinders look like pop rivets,

Those are called "eyelets" and the conventional way to install them is to
first make certain that your copper traces are shiny-clean, or tin/lead
plated!, paint the top, at least, with appropriately-thinned "rosin flux"
sold for the purpose, insert the "rivets", lay the "heads" (generally the
"top") down on a steel plate, and push an awl-tip into each, spreading them
tightly on the bottom surface of the hole. Then CAREFULLY solder them
("sweat-solder") on top, wiping off any excess, so there is no "solder-lump"
on the top, nor FILLING the hole (unless this was a via, only, not for a
component-lead). If the eyelets you use are not TOO long (you are not using
those for 1/8" boards on 1/16" stock, for example), soldering a
component-lead in them, and the eyelet-bottom to the trace below can be done
as you would solder any lead "on the solder-side".

Seems I recall a firm-name "International Eylelets"? I got a sample-pack of
VERY TINY gold-plated eylets from them years back, too small for anything but
leads on a 1/8 W. resistor! Try a Google search! The firm KEPRO, which
handles all kindsa PCB stuff surely has eylets, and/or can tell us where to
go (yes, laff, if you must!). I also got a few hundred "we don't stock
such; just happened to have these!" HUGE ones from a local surplus house
(1/16" O.D., and the flange-O.D. was like 0.110!) tin-ELECTRO-plated, so
there wasn't enough tin to "DO anything", and they were years old, so not
excellently-solderable any longer. One must use experience, balance need
with hassle, and tolerate one's own need to vent a gale of fetid wind, from
time to time!

Jan Rowland, Old Troll


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/10/2003 9:33:46 AM Central Standard Time, m.zingg@...
writes:

> So again, I will be happy to share my experience as
> soon as I'm there - and :-) no worries, I'm fully aware of what's
> needed for the plating through process.
>

Und wir bedanken uns!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Someone "in here" inquired about the appropriate material for router-bits and
drills for PCB work. I responded, but at that time, I had temporarily
forgotten about this source I have used, before (try link).

This ol' boy apparently has a source of excellent re-grinds, and is selling
them reasonably. He has "router bits" listed separately, but "along with"
the drill-bits, best "deal" I have ever seen.

<A HREF="http://www.tinkers-emporium.com/">Tinkers Emporium
</A>
Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i really think you are talking of other bits.
the ones i mean are not put in against solid surface.
they are stuck in the whole way, up to the upper flange.
they then stick out on the bottom.

from there are two other methods:

a) solder them on top, solder on bottom (remember a tiny end of the pipe sticking out).
, the bottom then will look like a soldered component wire but thicker.

b) "rivet" them in like hollow rivets. so the bottom gets like the top is with a flange.
this is done by the bungard tool.
soldering if you want (i would).
looks more professional i think.


have your rivets a flange at one end? i don't think so.


regards
st


11.05.2003 21:24:22, JanRwl@... wrote:

>In a message dated 5/10/2003 2:50:02 AM Central Standard Time,
>stefan_trethan@... writes:
>
>> these cylinders look like pop rivets,
>
>Those are called "eyelets" and the conventional way to install them is to
>first make certain that your copper traces are shiny-clean, or tin/lead
>plated!, paint the top, at least, with appropriately-thinned "rosin flux"
>sold for the purpose, insert the "rivets", lay the "heads" (generally the
>"top") down on a steel plate, and push an awl-tip into each, spreading them
>tightly on the bottom surface of the hole. Then CAREFULLY solder them
>("sweat-solder") on top, wiping off any excess, so there is no "solder-lump"
>on the top, nor FILLING the hole (unless this was a via, only, not for a
>component-lead). If the eyelets you use are not TOO long (you are not using
>those for 1/8" boards on 1/16" stock, for example), soldering a
>component-lead in them, and the eyelet-bottom to the trace below can be done
>as you would solder any lead "on the solder-side".
>
>Seems I recall a firm-name "International Eylelets"? I got a sample-pack of
>VERY TINY gold-plated eylets from them years back, too small for anything but
>leads on a 1/8 W. resistor! Try a Google search! The firm KEPRO, which
>handles all kindsa PCB stuff surely has eylets, and/or can tell us where to
>go (yes, laff, if you must!). I also got a few hundred "we don't stock
>such; just happened to have these!" HUGE ones from a local surplus house
>(1/16" O.D., and the flange-O.D. was like 0.110!) tin-ELECTRO-plated, so
>there wasn't enough tin to "DO anything", and they were years old, so not
>excellently-solderable any longer. One must use experience, balance need
>with hassle, and tolerate one's own need to vent a gale of fetid wind, from
>time to time!
>
>Jan Rowland, Old Troll
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

hi

do you still have access to the press?
i think it would be very straightforward to also manufacture the stamp parts.

if you still have the unit you maybe can provide a quick drawing of the shape.

when i next order at reichelt in germany i will for sure order a bag of the rivets, i wantet this long
ago but have forgotten to buy them as there was no actual need when ordering.

then i will try to get my hands on riveting stamps for hollow rivets (of course bigger ones).
i think i must have such stamps somewhere.

if i make a miniature version of this stamps they may work.

i will do this because i didn't find such pieces here, only the rivets. and i will not buy them at
bungard (if i really want to spend that much i can have done the boards by a shop).

to try it it would be suficcient to put the one part of the stamp in the drill and the other part
down in the vice and use a working drill press. (powered off...)

but maybe for the very first try a vice, the 2 parts, and a hammer would also work.. like you do it with
normal hollow rivets.



10.05.2003 19:30:59, Cristian <bip@...> wrote:

>> It's only $10, so perhaps it might be worth
>> it to by this part and fabricate the rest of this tool myself.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -Neil.
>I own the Bungard's original press.There is no need to buy the full press.
>One handy man can buy only the two parts (see Neil's mail) of the active
>head and to adapt a press from a drill-holder-press to accomodate them. Or
>to use any other hand press.
>Cristian
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

oh, i'm sorry steve, very sorry.....
i really dont wan't you to get.. all words i have to look up in a dictionary because they don't tell you
in school.....

regards
st

Markus,
I would very much be interested in setting up a lab to try out your method.
Please send the information when you can. I have always sent boards out for
through hole plating and, although I wanted to setup to do the plating
in-house, I could never extract the information from anyone on how to do so.
I am sure there are many on this list who would also like to give it a go.
-Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Markus Zingg" <m.zingg@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Metalized holes


> Ok, let me get a bit more specific.
>
> The process obviousely depends on wether a two layer or four layer PCB
> is to be made. I use 18um copper plated base material. In case of a
> two layer board this is of 1.5 mm thikness, in case of a four layer
> one 0.5 mm only. First step is to drill all holes through all layers.
> In case of four layers, I screw the layers together using two
> diagonaly positioned screws that I place outside of the final PCB
> area. Then comes the plaiting trhough process of the inner layer
> (obviousely there is only one inner layer with two sided PCB's). After
> this I laminate a photoresist film onto the two sides of the PCB (or
> inner layer respectively). The result is then exposed and etched, then
> the remaining part of the photoresist is removed by exposing the whole
> print once more and develop (which will completely remove the
> remaining parts of the photoresist). If this is going to be a four
> layer PCB, the outer layers are glued onto the two sides of the inner
> layer using a thin film of 5 minute epoxy. The previousely two screw
> holes are now used to propperly align the layers. After this I drill
> all holes once more to remove glue. After this the whole PCB is once
> more through plated, the outer surfaces are laminated with photoresist
> film, exposed, developped, etched and reexposed developped to remove
> the remaining parts of photoresist.
>
> Now to the time it takes:
>
> exposure = 1.5 minutes per run
> develop = 1 minute
> laminateing = ~1.5 minutes per side
> plate trhough run = 30 minutes up to ~1 hour depending on size of pcb
> etching = ~4 minutes.
> drill the holes = ( I do it manually. The photofilm is manually
> alligned so as it matches the alredy present holes) - depending on the
> board but rarely more than 30 minutes.
> Glueing = ~15 minutes
>
> The times needed of course vary depending on the size and complexity
> of the PCB and of course wether its a two layer or four layer one.
> Bigger PCB's may take longer than 3 hours, but I think that 4 hours
> should be sufficient in mostly all cases. I must add though that I do
> not apply a solder stop mask or anything else because the PCB's I
> create are exclusively used for prototypes.
>
> The chemicals I use are partially concentrates and partially ready
> made mixtures which can be bought from Bungard. The photoresist is
> also from Bungard. I will list them in detail later, but they do only
> have "brand kind" of names which don't tell much about what they
> consist of like C400 and names like this.
>
> The method used was shown to me by a friend I got to know through an
> electronic online forum in the internet (in case you read this - thank
> you John). I visited him so as he could show everything to me and he
> was kind enough to explain everything to me in detail. I personally
> asisted a plating through process and the result was simply stunning.
> >From what I understood the speed of the plating through process and
> the quality of the result extremly depends on the chemicals used. He
> had much inferior results before he started to use Bungard chemicals.
> Let me state that neither he nor I are in any ways related to Bungard.
>
> As mentioned, I will post more information including pictures as soon
> as I'm ready.
>
> Markus
>
> >Markus Zingg wrote:
> >
> >[deleted]
> >>The main advantage
> >> however is independancy and the possibility to have a four layer PCB
> >> completed within say 2 - 3 hours....
> >
> >Multilayer in 2 - 3 hours ! No offense, but that statement
> >made me laugh. Even if you had a fully automated machines
> >that did everything from drill to the final dry, it will
> >take much longer than 3 hours.
> >With your experience of the pattern plated through hole, you
> >must of learned to appreciate the complex nature of the
> >process. As you said earlier its not easy, so unless the
> >hobbyist wants convert to PCB making as their primary
> >interest then plated through holes will be best left to
> >professionals or semi-professionals.
> >
> >I appreciate your enthusiasm in attempting to make plated
> >through hole boards at home. I've always had a interest in
> >chemistry and find the inner workings of the PCB process
> >quite fascinating. I'm interested in the basic method you
> >are using or plan to use. Is it the pattern plating process
> >or the "tent and etch" or the "etch back" process ?
> >
> >In the "etch back" process you take a thin copper clad board
> >18 um or less (1/2 oz/ft^2), apply photoresist, expose,
> >develop, and copper plate the tracks so an additional 35um+
> >is added. Remove the photoresists and etch the whole board
> >until the original 18 um copper cladding is completely
> >etched and so the thicker tracks are not etched. Obviously
> >this requires an etching apparatus capable of uniform etch,
> >something much better than simple bubble tank.
> >
> >Adam
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Jan, I also tried re-grinds once to go cheaper on buying so many carbide
bits. What I found was that carbide bits usually break before they go dull
because they are so brittle. In my experience, re-ground bits had a very
short life due to premature breakage. There is no way to know what abuse it
has already gone through before it was reground. At first, I thought I had
something on my CNC askew and causing the problem, but checked and double
checked and then tried new bits. Voila! problem solved.
-Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: <JanRwl@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: SPAM: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Metalized holes


> Someone "in here" inquired about the appropriate material for router-bits
and
> drills for PCB work. I responded, but at that time, I had temporarily
> forgotten about this source I have used, before (try link).
>
> This ol' boy apparently has a source of excellent re-grinds, and is
selling
> them reasonably. He has "router bits" listed separately, but "along with"
> the drill-bits, best "deal" I have ever seen.
>
> <A HREF="http://www.tinkers-emporium.com/">Tinkers Emporium
> </A>
> Jan Rowland
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Alrighty folks,

Been busy for the past couple days, but I've come back with (hopefully) some
good news.... a source for eyelets....
http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm

They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require plating
thru.

Some technical details on the press tool...
http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm

Other good description of usage...
http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm

Also some great info on PCB repair...
http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm

Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.

Cheers,
-Neil.

is the price there given in per pack of 100 pieces? or am i wrong?
then it would be VERY expensive.

but the picture of the riveting tool is nice. it is exactly what i thought of.
even the moveable center piece is exactly like i would have done it.
but i believe it would also work without the center rod.

the form tool seems very straightforward, it should be easy to make this on a lathe (yea of course i
have none! hope to be able to do this with a drill press.....).

thank you for the links...
but first i have to get the rivets....


i'm glad to have helped you with this suggestion.
i really think it is much easier then setting up a chemical process.
(sure the results can't compete)

regards
stefan






12.05.2003 09:23:42, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:

>Alrighty folks,
>
>Been busy for the past couple days, but I've come back with (hopefully) some
>good news.... a source for eyelets....
> http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
>
>They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
>technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
>holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require plating
>thru.
>
>Some technical details on the press tool...
> http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
>
>Other good description of usage...
> http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
>
>Also some great info on PCB repair...
> http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
>
>Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
>
>Cheers,
>-Neil.
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi, jumping in for the first time on the list,

On the subject of rivets/eyelets, this link may be of interest. (not sure
if they have been mentioned before)

http://www.intl-eyelets.com/

They seem to have the same tools (and better pictures) and parts,
hopefully at a better price.
Not sure if they do small orders, maybe a group purchase could be arranged.

-carl



At 12:57 PM 5/12/2003, you wrote:

>is the price there given in per pack of 100 pieces? or am i wrong?
>then it would be VERY expensive.
>
>but the picture of the riveting tool is nice. it is exactly what i thought of.
>even the moveable center piece is exactly like i would have done it.
>but i believe it would also work without the center rod.
>
>the form tool seems very straightforward, it should be easy to make this
>on a lathe (yea of course i
>have none! hope to be able to do this with a drill press.....).
>
>thank you for the links...
>but first i have to get the rivets....
>
>
>i'm glad to have helped you with this suggestion.
>i really think it is much easier then setting up a chemical process.
>(sure the results can't compete)
>
>regards
>stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>12.05.2003 09:23:42, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>
> >Alrighty folks,
> >
> >Been busy for the past couple days, but I've come back with (hopefully)
> some
> >good news.... a source for eyelets....
> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
> >
> >They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
> >technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
> >holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require
> plating
> >thru.
> >
> >Some technical details on the press tool...
> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
> >
> >Other good description of usage...
> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
> >
> >Also some great info on PCB repair...
> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
> >
> >Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >-Neil.
> >
> >
> >

this link is great, thank you!

i again doubt that there can be any more variety on the eyelet market but in the past i was told the
opposite again and again.

the images of the form tools are very nice, they are like i expected.
i have no idea if the eyelets from reichelt germany have rolled or flat flange on one side.

does anyone know if the moving center spingle is spring loaded or set to a fixed length with a screw?

".. They may be used in any arbor press or drill press that will accommodate the 375-degree shank
diameter. .."
i suggested this already, seems they also think this is a option, i think a drill press is readily
available everywhere and there is no need for another press..

regards
stefan

12.05.2003 21:19:16, Henry Carl Ott <carlott@...> wrote:

>Hi, jumping in for the first time on the list,
>
> On the subject of rivets/eyelets, this link may be of interest. (not sure
>if they have been mentioned before)
>
> http://www.intl-eyelets.com/
>
> They seem to have the same tools (and better pictures) and parts,
>hopefully at a better price.
> Not sure if they do small orders, maybe a group purchase could be arranged.
>
>-carl
>
>
>
>At 12:57 PM 5/12/2003, you wrote:
>>is the price there given in per pack of 100 pieces? or am i wrong?
>>then it would be VERY expensive.
>>
>>but the picture of the riveting tool is nice. it is exactly what i thought of.
>>even the moveable center piece is exactly like i would have done it.
>>but i believe it would also work without the center rod.
>>
>>the form tool seems very straightforward, it should be easy to make this
>>on a lathe (yea of course i
>>have none! hope to be able to do this with a drill press.....).
>>
>>thank you for the links...
>>but first i have to get the rivets....
>>
>>
>>i'm glad to have helped you with this suggestion.
>>i really think it is much easier then setting up a chemical process.
>>(sure the results can't compete)
>>
>>regards
>>stefan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>12.05.2003 09:23:42, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
>>
>> >Alrighty folks,
>> >
>> >Been busy for the past couple days, but I've come back with (hopefully)
>> some
>> >good news.... a source for eyelets....
>> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
>> >
>> >They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
>> >technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
>> >holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require
>> plating
>> >thru.
>> >
>> >Some technical details on the press tool...
>> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
>> >
>> >Other good description of usage...
>> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
>> >
>> >Also some great info on PCB repair...
>> > http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
>> >
>> >Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >-Neil.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

It appears that intl-eyelets offers an impressive range of sizes and
options.

They offer the choice of funnel flange, rolled flange, or flat flange
eyelets. Does anyone know what are the advantages of the various types of
flange?

- Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Carl Ott" <carlott@...>
To: <homebrew_pcbs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Metalized holes


> Hi, jumping in for the first time on the list,
>
> On the subject of rivets/eyelets, this link may be of interest. (not
sure
> if they have been mentioned before)
>
> http://www.intl-eyelets.com/
>
> They seem to have the same tools (and better pictures) and parts,
> hopefully at a better price.
> Not sure if they do small orders, maybe a group purchase could be
arranged.
>
> -carl
>
>
>
> At 12:57 PM 5/12/2003, you wrote:
> >is the price there given in per pack of 100 pieces? or am i wrong?
> >then it would be VERY expensive.
> >
> >but the picture of the riveting tool is nice. it is exactly what i
thought of.
> >even the moveable center piece is exactly like i would have done it.
> >but i believe it would also work without the center rod.
> >
> >the form tool seems very straightforward, it should be easy to make this
> >on a lathe (yea of course i
> >have none! hope to be able to do this with a drill press.....).
> >
> >thank you for the links...
> >but first i have to get the rivets....
> >
> >
> >i'm glad to have helped you with this suggestion.
> >i really think it is much easier then setting up a chemical process.
> >(sure the results can't compete)
> >
> >regards
> >stefan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >12.05.2003 09:23:42, Neil <cobra_neil@...> wrote:
> >
> > >Alrighty folks,
> > >
> > >Been busy for the past couple days, but I've come back with
(hopefully)
> > some
> > >good news.... a source for eyelets....
> > > http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/115-7000.htm
> > >
> > >They're not cheap (~$30 per 100), but if I continue to use my existing
> > >technique of designing boards so that they require very few plated-thru
> > >holes, this might solve the problem for the few holes that do require
> > plating
> > >thru.
> > >
> > >Some technical details on the press tool...
> > > http://www.circuittechctr.com/products/110-5202.htm
> > >
> > >Other good description of usage...
> > > http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/5-3.htm
> > >
> > >Also some great info on PCB repair...
> > > http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/3-0.htm
> > >
> > >Peruse the site -- there's lots of good info there.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >-Neil.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

In a message dated 5/12/2003 3:45:18 PM Central Standard Time,
Chrisgr@... writes:

> They offer the choice of funnel flange, rolled flange, or flat flange
> eyelets. Does anyone know what are the advantages of the various types of
> flange?
>

GOOD question, Chris! NOW: Someone ANSWER, as I wanna know, TOO!!!!
Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

;')

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> oh, i'm sorry steve, very sorry.....
> i really dont wan't you to get.. all words i have to look up in a

dictionary because they don't tell you

> in school.....
>
> regards
> st