Homebrew PCBs

Hello,

I saw tons and tons of tutorials on how to make your own PCBs but they
are all shades of white/clear and don't look very professional. I was
wondering if anyone knows how to make green professional looking PCBs?
I googled around and found this product:
http://www.web-tronics.com/torefogpgr.html
Anyone know if this is what I need? Or is there an easier or maybe
cheaper way of making the PCBs green?

Also, if you need to make a large number of PCBs (say, 100 or so per
week) would it be cheaper/faster to make them yourself or order them
from a place for like $2-3 per sqr in?

Also, as a side note: This is basically the process of making a PCB?
Print the design onto photopaper, use iron to transfer ink onto
special copper board, use that chemical stuff to eat away all the
copper thats exposed then use alcohol to remove the ink. Then drill
some holes (unless its a SMD board. in which case you would make a
stencil and apply soldering paste or hand solder it.) Correct?

Thanks for your time,
-killerobot9000

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:46:55 +0100, killerobot9000  
<killerobot9000@...> wrote:

> Hello,
> I saw tons and tons of tutorials on how to make your own PCBs but they
> are all shades of white/clear and don't look very professional. I was
> wondering if anyone knows how to make green professional looking PCBs?
> I googled around and found this product:
> http://www.web-tronics.com/torefogpgr.html
> Anyone know if this is what I need? Or is there an easier or maybe
> cheaper way of making the PCBs green?
> Also, if you need to make a large number of PCBs (say, 100 or so per
> week) would it be cheaper/faster to make them yourself or order them
> from a place for like $2-3 per sqr in?
> Also, as a side note: This is basically the process of making a PCB?
> Print the design onto photopaper, use iron to transfer ink onto
> special copper board, use that chemical stuff to eat away all the
> copper thats exposed then use alcohol to remove the ink. Then drill
> some holes (unless its a SMD board. in which case you would make a
> stencil and apply soldering paste or hand solder it.) Correct?
> Thanks for your time,
> -killerobot9000


I doubt that green stuff will make it look good (the toner underneath will  
make it dark), you need what is called soldermask.
For 100 boards a week having them made is far more reasonable.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "killerobot9000"
<killerobot9000@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> 
> I saw tons and tons of tutorials on how to make your own PCBs but they
> are all shades of white/clear and don't look very professional. I was
> wondering if anyone knows how to make green professional looking PCBs?
> I googled around and found this product:
> http://www.web-tronics.com/torefogpgr.html
> Anyone know if this is what I need? Or is there an easier or maybe
> cheaper way of making the PCBs green?

What you are talking about is called a Conformal Coating. It's a layer
there to protect the board. Google for Conformal Coating.

That green stuff fromWeb-Tronics is something else entirely. That is
for toner transfer, it only sticks to the toner, not the rest of the
board.

> Also, if you need to make a large number of PCBs (say, 100 or so per
> week) would it be cheaper/faster to make them yourself or order them
> from a place for like $2-3 per sqr in?

I would think it would be faster, probably cheaper. Check the Links
section, there are some that are quite inexpensive.

> Also, as a side note: This is basically the process of making a PCB?
> Print the design onto photopaper, use iron to transfer ink onto
> special copper board, use that chemical stuff to eat away all the
> copper thats exposed then use alcohol to remove the ink. Then drill
> some holes (unless its a SMD board. in which case you would make a
> stencil and apply soldering paste or hand solder it.) Correct?

Correction/clarification: print with a Laser printer, use iron to
transfer laser toner onto ordinary but freshly cleaned blank printed
circuit board. Soak and peel paper (or other directions if you use
something like the green film from Web-Tronics). Now etch in the
etchant of your choice.

Inkjet ink does not work with toner transfer method. There is a way to
use some inkjets to print directly onto the copper. Then you bake to
cure the ink, and then etch. Only a few inks have been tested to work,
curing seems quite critical with some. So far only Epson printers.

Steve Greenfield

At 12:01 AM 11/11/2006 +0100, you wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:46:55 +0100, killerobot9000  
><killerobot9000@...> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I saw tons and tons of tutorials on how to make your own PCBs but they
>> are all shades of white/clear and don't look very professional. I was
>> wondering if anyone knows how to make green professional looking PCBs?
>> I googled around and found this product:
>> http://www.web-tronics.com/torefogpgr.html

FR4 epoxy laminate PCB base material is light-green (yellowish-green) in 
color, and semi-translucent.  I think that's what you're looking for.
I believe it's (by far) the most widely used PCB material, though there
are certainly others.

I have no idea why anyone would need the film in your link, tho. 

Ron Yost

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "killerobot9000"
> <killerobot9000@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I saw tons and tons of tutorials on how to make your own PCBs but they
> > are all shades of white/clear and don't look very professional. I was
> > wondering if anyone knows how to make green professional looking PCBs?
> > I googled around and found this product:
> > http://www.web-tronics.com/torefogpgr.html
> > Anyone know if this is what I need? Or is there an easier or maybe
> > cheaper way of making the PCBs green?
> 
> What you are talking about is called a Conformal Coating. It's a layer
> there to protect the board. Google for Conformal Coating.
> 
> That green stuff fromWeb-Tronics is something else entirely. That is
> for toner transfer, it only sticks to the toner, not the rest of the
> board.
> 
> > Also, if you need to make a large number of PCBs (say, 100 or so per
> > week) would it be cheaper/faster to make them yourself or order them
> > from a place for like $2-3 per sqr in?
> 
> I would think it would be faster, probably cheaper. Check the Links
> section, there are some that are quite inexpensive.
> 
> > Also, as a side note: This is basically the process of making a PCB?
> > Print the design onto photopaper, use iron to transfer ink onto
> > special copper board, use that chemical stuff to eat away all the
> > copper thats exposed then use alcohol to remove the ink. Then drill
> > some holes (unless its a SMD board. in which case you would make a
> > stencil and apply soldering paste or hand solder it.) Correct?
> 
> Correction/clarification: print with a Laser printer, use iron to
> transfer laser toner onto ordinary but freshly cleaned blank printed
> circuit board. Soak and peel paper (or other directions if you use
> something like the green film from Web-Tronics). Now etch in the
> etchant of your choice.
> 
> Inkjet ink does not work with toner transfer method. There is a way to
> use some inkjets to print directly onto the copper. Then you bake to
> cure the ink, and then etch. Only a few inks have been tested to work,
> curing seems quite critical with some. So far only Epson printers.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

Wow! Thanks for the fast replies!! This is by far the most active and
helpful group I had ever joined. Most of the time I don't get a reply
for weeks. Thanks a lot :) I am googling Conformal Coating right this
moment!

Wait... laser printers. hmm, arent those the big expensive ones used
in schools and businesses that have like $100 ink? Gunna look for some
inkjet tutorials also :D Wonder how hard it is to modify a inkjet
printer to print onto the boards.

Once again, thanks for the help :D You guys (and gals if any. chicks
making PCBs? awesome! =P) rock!
-killerobot9000

"killerobot9000" <killerobot9000@...> writes:
> Wait... laser printers. hmm, arent those the big expensive ones used
> in schools and businesses that have like $100 ink?

I've got four in my home office.  The toner is about $100 per color,
but they print thousands of pages and they never dry up like ink does.
The cost per page is significantly less in the long run.

On 11 Nov 2006 11:02:41 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  "killerobot9000" <killerobot9000@...> writes:
>  > Wait... laser printers. hmm, arent those the big expensive ones used
>  > in schools and businesses that have like $100 ink?

ebay, buy an old model for peanuts.

Lez

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> On 11 Nov 2006 11:02:41 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  "killerobot9000" <killerobot9000@...> writes:
> >  > Wait... laser printers. hmm, arent those the big expensive ones
used
> >  > in schools and businesses that have like $100 ink?
> 
> ebay, buy an old model for peanuts.
> 
> Lez
>

eBay is always your friend :) Thanks for reminding me! I checked now
and there are some nice models with full ink going for like $30 + 30$
shipping :) Il order one later after im done with my prototyping :)

Thanks a lot!

On 11/11/06, killerobot9000 <killerobot9000@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > On 11 Nov 2006 11:02:41 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >  "killerobot9000" <killerobot9000@...> writes:
>  > >  > Wait... laser printers. hmm, arent those the big expensive ones
>  used
>  > >  > in schools and businesses that have like $100 ink?
>  >
>  > ebay, buy an old model for peanuts.
>  >
>  > Lez
>  >
>
>  eBay is always your friend :) Thanks for reminding me! I checked now
>  and there are some nice models with full ink going for like $30 + 30$
>  shipping :) Il order one later after im done with my prototyping :)
>
>  Thanks a lot!

The HP4l (if still available) is almost flat path, I'm sure that is a
printer screaming for direct laser printing.........

Seems to do a 45'deg angle for about 5mm, If that could be smoothed out...

I have one, but I dont want to kill it, if I had two, then I would not
care etc, I keep trying the 'car boot sales' (organised 'drive to'
yard sales) for one, thats how I got this one.



Lez

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:20:35 +0100, killerobot9000  
<killerobot9000@...> wrote:

>
> eBay is always your friend :) Thanks for reminding me! I checked now
> and there are some nice models with full ink going for like $30 + 30$
> shipping :) Il order one later after im done with my prototyping :)
> Thanks a lot!


Also make sure you can get cheap toner for it. I bought a printer off ebay  
for like 10eur or so but it is very difficult to find cheap toner.

ST

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:33:27 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> The HP4l (if still available) is almost flat path, I'm sure that is a
> printer screaming for direct laser printing.........
> Seems to do a 45'deg angle for about 5mm, If that could be smoothed  
> out...
> I have one, but I dont want to kill it, if I had two, then I would not
> care etc, I keep trying the 'car boot sales' (organised 'drive to'
> yard sales) for one, thats how I got this one.
> Lez


It's not as if anyone anywhere seems to have made a successful direct  
laser printed PCB like, ever.

But you are welcome to try!

ST

>
> It's not as if anyone anywhere seems to have made a successful direct
> laser printed PCB like, ever.
>
> But you are welcome to try!

Well maybe its all in the printer, l may be lucky!

I think problem will be the 'static' wont be able to work through the
copper to pull the toner off the drum, possibly because the copper
gets earthed out by the chassis somewhere, but if it can be insulated,
maybe even carried on a plastic tray etc like a cd is in a cd printer,
then it may 'charge up', problem I see is you may have to make the
distance from the drum to the fuser at least the space of the largest
board you intend to print, ie say 30cm for 12*8 boards.

maybe instead of a tray, a belt, like a conveyor system, with it
looped around the fuser roller back to the pressure roller under the
drum.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:06:50 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> Well maybe its all in the printer, l may be lucky!
> I think problem will be the 'static' wont be able to work through the
> copper to pull the toner off the drum, possibly because the copper
> gets earthed out by the chassis somewhere, but if it can be insulated,
> maybe even carried on a plastic tray etc like a cd is in a cd printer,
> then it may 'charge up', problem I see is you may have to make the
> distance from the drum to the fuser at least the space of the largest
> board you intend to print, ie say 30cm for 12*8 boards.
> maybe instead of a tray, a belt, like a conveyor system, with it
> looped around the fuser roller back to the pressure roller under the
> drum.


The static does not charge the paper, it creates a field that pulls the  
toner against the paper.
So by charging the whole copper sheet you would probably get a blurry  
image, if you don't short to the drum that is.

The only method that seems promising is using a silicone coated roller in  
contact with the drum, that in turn contact the heated PCB running under  
it transferring the image.

One hell of a project.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 18:20:35 +0100, killerobot9000  
> <killerobot9000@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > eBay is always your friend :) Thanks for reminding me! I checked now
> > and there are some nice models with full ink going for like $30 + 30$
> > shipping :) Il order one later after im done with my prototyping :)
> > Thanks a lot!
> 
> 
> Also make sure you can get cheap toner for it. I bought a printer
off ebay  
> for like 10eur or so but it is very difficult to find cheap toner.
> 
> ST
>

Well, a lot of the ones I saw include a brand new box of toner. 1 1/2
- 2 boxes of toner should be MORE than enough for like 500 or so PCBs?
I can use the whole 8 1/2 by 11" paper and make multiple PCBs at once
and save some trees :)

On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 20:51:44 +0100, killerobot9000  
<killerobot9000@...> wrote:

>
> Well, a lot of the ones I saw include a brand new box of toner. 1 1/2
> - 2 boxes of toner should be MORE than enough for like 500 or so PCBs?
> I can use the whole 8 1/2 by 11" paper and make multiple PCBs at once
> and save some trees :)


Sure. I just don't like the idea of having to buy a new printer each time  
i run out of toner.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 20:51:44 +0100, killerobot9000  
> <killerobot9000@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, a lot of the ones I saw include a brand new box of toner. 1 1/2
> > - 2 boxes of toner should be MORE than enough for like 500 or so PCBs?
> > I can use the whole 8 1/2 by 11" paper and make multiple PCBs at once
> > and save some trees :)
> 
> 
> Sure. I just don't like the idea of having to buy a new printer each
time  
> i run out of toner.
> 
> ST
>

You can always sell the old printer =P and buy a new one w/ toner on
ebay. You probably can sell it high enough to cover shipping :)