Homebrew PCBs

Here's the confirmed info I promised for the other supplier.  Those of you
who will not be able to convert printers to accept standard 0.062" thick PCB
will be able to print on thin PCBs with direct-path printer models.


6"x10" double-sided 0.010"

- 6 sheets (360 sq. ") $10.00
- 15 sheets (900 sq. ") $22.00
- 25 sheets (1500 sq. ") $35.00

USPS Global Priority: $16.65
USPS United States: $8.65

Contact directly or via EBay, it's up to you.
- Kevin Benefield, amt33461@...
- EBay:
http://feedback.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=amt33461


I've been talking to Kevin about our project and he is working on custom-cut
sheets for maximum size on domestic desktop printers:


8.5"x11" double-sided 0.009"

- 4 sheets (374 sq. ") $10.00
- 10 sheets (935 sq. ") $23.00
- 15 sheets (1403 sq. ") $33.00
- 25 sheets (2338 sq. ") $55.00

USPS Global Priority: $16.65
USPS United States: $8.65


PayPal, Visa, MasterCard, Amex, money orders and cashiers cheques (credit
cards are processed through PayPal).  Expect normal verification delays when
dealing with money orders and cashiers cheques.  He ships worldwide.


One note, when you compare Kevin's prices with other sellers on EBay, make
sure to consider total area (single VS double sided).  All shipping will be
wrapped in cardboard, batteries not included.

Robert
:)

I have not done any tests by myself yet, but what I have been reading makes me
think of certain points:

-there are apparently two sorts of ink: dye and pigment based.
-dye inks are essentially thin and leave (almost) no residue and work by
'dirtying' the surface they are applied to.
-pigment inks are thicker and leave some sort of 'residue' (aka pigment) on the
surface they are deposited on.
-the 'curing' process applies heat until the 'residue' burns (carbonizes)
leaving something stuck on the surface that is not water (etchant) soluble.
-dark inks need very little residue to be visible, whereas light inks (yellow)
need a thicker residue to be visible, so after 'curing' more stuff is available
to protect the surface. This explains why black has proven useless and yellow
the best.
-alternate reason may be that black is already carbon and does not change by
heating while yellow is some sort of delicate organic pigment that nicely
'burns' and sticks during curing. Remember that those who report success say
the yellow has to turn brown to work.

question to discuss:
is there some chemical (surely organic) to be added to the ink that:
1) is water soluble (or suspendable)
2) adheres well to metal
3) becomes inert when (over) heated?

the yellow pigment of MIS ink is one answer, are there any others?
some sort of water soluble varnish?
one that could be used with non Epson printers?



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> Robert wrote:
>
> question to discuss:
> is there some chemical (surely organic) to be
> added to the ink that:
> 1) is water soluble (or suspendable)
> 2) adheres well to metal
> 3) becomes inert when (over) heated?
> 
> the yellow pigment of MIS ink is one answer, are
> there any others?  some sort of water soluble
> varnish? one that could be used with non Epson
> printers?

I was thinking gelatine a few weeks ago - but don't
have enough interest in direct-injket to give it a
try.

It can definitly be "cured" to be etchant proof.

But you might have to have it very very thin in
water to not clog.  And then have some custom print
driver that can slowly drop down layers of it and
heat between passes.

(think 8 pin dotmatrix trying to do letter qlty)

This idea then would turn into another complex
build thing - rather than the magic bullet "buy
this $10 printer, use this ink, bask in glory of
world peace and end to poverty"

When I first made this post, I was it who made the mistake of mixing
(miscreating) threads. I apologize.
As there was no reaction I am re-posting, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
------
  
I have not done any tests by myself yet, but what I have been reading makes me
think of certain points:

-there are apparently two sorts of ink: dye and pigment based.
-dye inks are essentially thin and leave (almost) no residue and work by
'dirtying' the surface they are applied to.
-pigment inks are thicker and leave some sort of 'residue' (aka pigment) on the
surface they are deposited on.
-the 'curing' process applies heat until the 'residue' burns (carbonizes)
leaving something stuck on the surface that is not water (etchant) soluble.
-dark inks need very little residue to be visible, whereas light inks (yellow)
need a thicker residue to be visible, so after 'curing' more stuff is available
to protect the surface. This explains why black has proven useless and yellow
the best.
-alternate reason may be that black is already carbon and does not change by
heating while yellow is some sort of delicate organic pigment that nicely
'burns' and sticks during curing. Remember that those who report success say
the yellow has to turn brown to work.

question to discuss:
is there some chemical (surely organic) to be added to the ink that:
1) is water soluble (or suspendable)
2) adheres well to metal
3) becomes inert when (over) heated?

the yellow pigment of MIS ink is one answer, are there any others?
some sort of water soluble varnish?
one that could be used with non Epson printers?






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> Herbert wrote:
> When I first made this post, I was it who made
> the mistake of mixing (miscreating) threads. I
> apologize.  As there was no reaction I am
> re-posting, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

And I shall repost the idea of gelatine.

When baked it will resist mechanicaly gentle
etching.

Might not be easy to squirt out though.

The additive must have a delicate balance of functions. Primarily, 
it must not plug up the nozzles when sitting. It must also be easily 
cleaned.

There has been some unsuccessful work done with "Future" polymer 
floor wax. There also was some mention of using glycerine to slow 
down the drying process.

Another issue is the type of printhead. The Epsons use a small piezo 
pump, whereas the others actually vaporize a small amount to drive a 
droplet out of the head.

Not an easy problem.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett" 
<cachureos@...> wrote:
>
> When I first made this post, I was it who made the mistake of 
mixing
> (miscreating) threads. I apologize.
> As there was no reaction I am re-posting, or am I barking up the 
wrong tree?
> ------
>   
> I have not done any tests by myself yet, but what I have been 
reading makes me
> think of certain points:
> 
> -there are apparently two sorts of ink: dye and pigment based.
> -dye inks are essentially thin and leave (almost) no residue and 
work by
> 'dirtying' the surface they are applied to.
> -pigment inks are thicker and leave some sort of 'residue' (aka 
pigment) on the
> surface they are deposited on.
> -the 'curing' process applies heat until the 'residue' burns 
(carbonizes)
> leaving something stuck on the surface that is not water (etchant) 
soluble.
> -dark inks need very little residue to be visible, whereas light 
inks (yellow)
> need a thicker residue to be visible, so after 'curing' more stuff 
is available
> to protect the surface. This explains why black has proven useless 
and yellow
> the best.
> -alternate reason may be that black is already carbon and does not 
change by
> heating while yellow is some sort of delicate organic pigment that 
nicely
> 'burns' and sticks during curing. Remember that those who report 
success say
> the yellow has to turn brown to work.
> 
> question to discuss:
> is there some chemical (surely organic) to be added to the ink 
that:

> 1) is water soluble (or suspendable)
> 2) adheres well to metal
> 3) becomes inert when (over) heated?
> 
> the yellow pigment of MIS ink is one answer, are there any others?
> some sort of water soluble varnish?
> one that could be used with non Epson printers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 04:20:22 +0200, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@...>  
wrote:




At least those last three statements are IMO wrong speculation.


> -the 'curing' process applies heat until the 'residue' burns (carbonizes)
> leaving something stuck on the surface that is not water (etchant)  
> soluble.

The curing temperature is maybe 200 or 300C (wild guess). I don't think  
anything carbonizes.
My best guess is it just dried all the water out. Water soluble ink may be  
waterproof when fully dry.
Air drying for two days did not have the same effect though, maybe due to  
water in the air.

> -dark inks need very little residue to be visible, whereas light inks  
> (yellow)
> need a thicker residue to be visible, so after 'curing' more stuff is  
> available
> to protect the surface. This explains why black has proven useless and  
> yellow
> the best.

This is one hypothesis, at best, it explains nothing unless you have  
proven it. I don't believe more yellow ink is used.

> -alternate reason may be that black is already carbon and does not  
> change by
> heating while yellow is some sort of delicate organic pigment that nicely
> 'burns' and sticks during curing. Remember that those who report success  
> say
> the yellow has to turn brown to work.

Slightly brown, not burnt! It is in no way proven that the turning brown  
has anything to do with it, i just use it to tell me "ok that's surely  
enough" lacking any temperature control for now.

Quite frankly, most of your post didn't seem to apply very much. IMO it is  
probably the resin or binder, not the pigments, doing the resisting.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What kind of ink are we really seeking for?


> The additive must have a delicate balance of functions. Primarily, 
> it must not plug up the nozzles when sitting. It must also be easily 
> cleaned.
> 
> There has been some unsuccessful work done with "Future" polymer 
> floor wax. There also was some mention of using glycerine to slow 
> down the drying process.
> 
> Another issue is the type of printhead. The Epsons use a small piezo 
> pump, whereas the others actually vaporize a small amount to drive a 
> droplet out of the head.

Printing systems which use UV cured ink use piezo print heads.

Leon

> Leon wrote:
> Printing systems which use UV cured ink use piezo
> print heads.

Leon - do you know if they use epson print heads
or are they special printheads with no plastics
that are attacked by serious solvents ?

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 10:56 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What kind of ink are we really seeking for?


>> Leon wrote:
>> Printing systems which use UV cured ink use piezo
>> print heads.
>
> Leon - do you know if they use epson print heads
> or are they special printheads with no plastics
> that are attacked by serious solvents ?

They use special heads, the problem is the viscosity of the ink. A UK 
company called Xaar makes the heads but they are very expensive, and the ink 
is difficult to obtain. An Italian company makes PCB equipment using the 
technique, but it's very expensive. I think it works best for silk screen, 
they don't seem to have any info on their PCB resist machine.

I looked into these techniques a couple of years ago, but didn't get 
anywhere. The ink has to be UV cured directly after it has been deposited, 
not after it has been applied to the whole board.

Leon

--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> ...
> Quite frankly, most of your post didn't seem to apply very much. IMO it is  
> probably the resin or binder, not the pigments, doing the resisting.
> 

I know from experience that I can pigment different ways (plastics coloring). 
for example: I can get 'orange' with a very little red pigment, but need a lot
of factory orange for a similar result. both have pros and cons.
can you tell why the yellow ink works and black not? 
completely different formulas, or only different pigments?
why would they have different ingredients besides the color?

OTOH is there a way of finding out what this -resin or binder- is?



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On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 10:54:01 +0200, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@...>  
wrote:

> I know from experience that I can pigment different ways (plastics  
> coloring).
> for example: I can get 'orange' with a very little red pigment, but need  
> a lot
> of factory orange for a similar result. both have pros and cons.
> can you tell why the yellow ink works and black not?
> completely different formulas, or only different pigments?
> why would they have different ingredients besides the color?
> OTOH is there a way of finding out what this -resin or binder- is?


I don't know, but it seems to coat the copper differently.
The mispro people weren't very useful when asked.

Maybe i'm wrong and it is the pigment itself, but chances are it isn't.

ST

--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
...
> > can you tell why the yellow ink works and black not?
> > completely different formulas, or only different pigments?
> > why would they have different ingredients besides the color?
> > OTOH is there a way of finding out what this -resin or binder- is?

this 'you' was meant plural (general), not personal to Stefan...

some chemist in the group? does somebody know a chemist to ask?



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> > > can you tell why the yellow ink works and black not?

Is it really important?
Cristian

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 10:44:17 +0200, Cristian <bip@...> wrote:

>
> Is it really important?
> Cristian


yes, because it could tell us why other inks don't work or which might  
work.
Imagine MISPRO changing the formula of the ink, only having one single  
type and not knowing why it works could be dangerous.

I couldn't work as much as i'd like on inkjet recently, hopefully soon i  
can do more.

ST

--- Cristian <bip@...> wrote:
> 
> > > > can you tell why the yellow ink works and black not?
> 
> Is it really important?
> Cristian 

for those interested in the possibillity of 'printing' pcbs, absolutely!
for the rest, not at all...



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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett" 
<cachureos@...> wrote:


> 
> some chemist in the group? does somebody know a chemist to ask?
> 

Would a chemical engineer do?  We usually try to avoid chemistry 
but...

IDEA ONE

Reading bits and pieces here and there (feel free to correct me but 
this is BIG topic) it sounds like you want to suspend a hydrophobic 
coating in water.  What you need to do (I think) is create a 
surfactant stabilised emulsion.

To sort this out you will need three things 1)DI water 2)a coating 
(try warm wax or light molecular weight polyethelye glycol PEG ,say 
300/600)  3) a non-ionic detergent and 4) a mix master.

to a lot of 1 add a little bit (1wt %) of 2, the two obviously won't 
mix.  Add a little of 3 again about 1 wt %.  then zap with the 
belnder.  What you are looking for is a stable (leave it for a week 
or so to test) milky white suspension.  The idea is that tiny  oil 
droplets are now surrounded by the surfactant which allows them to 
stay in the water without separating.  The blender applies enough 
shear to make the droplets as small as possible.

IDEA TWO
This time the idea is to chemically attach a anionic surfactant to 
the copper such that the hydrophobic tail is away from the surface.  
Something like sodium laurel sulfate (the stuff in shampoo) might 
work.  An aqueous mix (a few wt%) in DI water might print on to VERY 
clean copper such that the anonic end bonds to the copper.

DISCLAIMER

It is late here and Australia lost the soccer last night so I might 
not be thinking straight.  These ideas may turn your printer, house 
or country into a smoking heap.  Test first.

--- mikegw20 <mikegw20@...> wrote:

> Would a chemical engineer do?  We usually try to avoid chemistry 
> but...
> 
> IDEA ONE
> IDEA TWO
> 
>   These ideas may turn your printer, house 
> or country into a smoking heap.  Test first.  

you see???
there IS a chance to find out some stuff...

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