Homebrew_PCBs

I have been pondering a bit about the feeder tray for the ink jet
printers. If you recall, Stefan came up with a really good method -
leading edge has a long stop and a center mark.

I have yet to come up with a material suitable to make this from. It
would need to be thin, and somewhat rigid. Furthermore, it needs to
be pulled through the printer with ease. On my Stylus 850 is has a
rough-surfaced metal roller for the main feed roller so I am think
along the lines of a plastic tray. Anyone else give any thought to
this yet?

Chris

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:26:40 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> I have been pondering a bit about the feeder tray for the ink jet
>
> printers. If you recall, Stefan came up with a really good method -
>
> leading edge has a long stop and a center mark.
>
>
> I have yet to come up with a material suitable to make this from. It
>
> would need to be thin, and somewhat rigid. Furthermore, it needs to
>
> be pulled through the printer with ease. On my Stylus 850 is has a
>
> rough-surfaced metal roller for the main feed roller so I am think
>
> along the lines of a plastic tray. Anyone else give any thought to
>
> this yet?
>
>
> Chris

I was thinking along the lines of large PCB material.

ST

Hmm, That might work. If it slips too much on my rollers, I could
always rough up the surface a bit so that the roller can get some
traction. I just remembered I have some plastic sheet out in the
shop somewhere that is sort of rubbery yet stiff. It is the
material used by engravers to make desk and office signs etc. I
recall it being about 1MM thick or so. I will have to dig that out
and have a look see at that too.

By chance, how are you going to setup your leading edge detector? I
have not given that too much thought yet either. I can easily see
using a very basic snap acting switch for this. Even an opto switch
if I can put a notch in the carrier board so that it is lined up
with the leading edge. I am hoping I can get it rigged up so that
the carrier board is past the feed roller a bit more than what paper
would be. This would make it much easier to keep the board in
alignment during feed through.

Still have to figure out that damn "Printer Jam" error too - grrrrr,
wish I had watched it run a few power up cycles before ripping it to
pieces.

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:26:40 +0200, lcdpublishing
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> > I have been pondering a bit about the feeder tray for the ink jet
> >
> > printers. If you recall, Stefan came up with a really good

method -

> >
> > leading edge has a long stop and a center mark.
> >
> >
> > I have yet to come up with a material suitable to make this

from. It

> >
> > would need to be thin, and somewhat rigid. Furthermore, it

needs to

> >
> > be pulled through the printer with ease. On my Stylus 850 is

has a

> >
> > rough-surfaced metal roller for the main feed roller so I am

think

> >
> > along the lines of a plastic tray. Anyone else give any thought

to

> >
> > this yet?
> >
> >
> > Chris
>
>
> I was thinking along the lines of large PCB material.
>
> ST
>

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:54:34 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> By chance, how are you going to setup your leading edge detector? I
>
> have not given that too much thought yet either. I can easily see
>
> using a very basic snap acting switch for this. Even an opto switch
>
> if I can put a notch in the carrier board so that it is lined up
>
> with the leading edge. I am hoping I can get it rigged up so that
>
> the carrier board is past the feed roller a bit more than what paper
>
> would be. This would make it much easier to keep the board in
>
> alignment during feed through.

Haven't thought about the details yet, but i would have the paper leading
edge detector applied directly to that table.

If possible i plan to have this table engaged with the feed rollers all
the time - i don't see this as a sheet you feed like thick paper, i see
this as a flatbed printer - gantry style.

If it takes some fooling of the mechainsm (sensors, taking over control of
motors at times), then that's what it takes...

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> I have been pondering a bit about the feeder tray for the ink jet
> printers. If you recall, Stefan came up with a really good method -
> leading edge has a long stop and a center mark.
>
> I have yet to come up with a material suitable to make this from. It
> would need to be thin, and somewhat rigid. Furthermore, it needs to
> be pulled through the printer with ease. On my Stylus 850 is has a
> rough-surfaced metal roller for the main feed roller so I am think
> along the lines of a plastic tray. Anyone else give any thought to
> this yet?

There used to be a company that sold Epson 1520 modified to take
thicker stuff, with a 6 CD holder tray. I don't recall if it was made
out of plastic or paper (obviously thick).

Several on CD lists have modified other printers to take thicker stock
and made single CD holders the same way.

The 2200 can already accept 1.3mm thick stock. Here's a site
explaining how someone made a CD holder and a plastic thing to hold
the pizza wheels out of the way while printing:
http://www.anestoday.com/epson2200/cdprint.htm

I found my Canon BJC 6000 will feed a CD without hitting the head, no
modifications. If I find an OEM black cartridge around here, I'll test
it's ink, too. I've been refilling with an all dye 3rd party ink.

Basic idea for the CD printer is cut a hole in plastic or cardstock as
thick as a CD, then glue a thin plastic or paper sheet on the back. A
tightish fit and gravity keeps the CD in the carrier. Not sure how
you'd do the same with a PCB, as the size will not always be the same
and something like doublestick tape or blue tack will increase the
thickness.

Even if this requires thin PCB in the printers that don't handle thick
stuff, I'm stoked! I'm off to cut a sheet to run through my Epson 5000
(MIS pigmented ink). I have FeCl already.

Steve Greenfield

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:19:51 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>
> Even if this requires thin PCB in the printers that don't handle thick
>
> stuff, I'm stoked! I'm off to cut a sheet to run through my Epson 5000
>
> (MIS pigmented ink). I have FeCl already.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield

You think you will get this tried before i do?
I'm not that far away now and i had to buy a printer and get the ink
shipped halfway around the globe ;-)

ST

The only problem I see with that is getting the darn thing to back
up again. Don't know how that could be done. Then again, I am not
very good at this electronics "re-configuring" stuff ;-)

> Haven't thought about the details yet, but i would have the paper

leading

> edge detector applied directly to that table.
>
> If possible i plan to have this table engaged with the feed

rollers all

> the time - i don't see this as a sheet you feed like thick paper,

i see

> this as a flatbed printer - gantry style.
>
> If it takes some fooling of the mechainsm (sensors, taking over

control of

> motors at times), then that's what it takes...
>
> ST
>

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:33:18 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> The only problem I see with that is getting the darn thing to back
>
> up again. Don't know how that could be done. Then again, I am not
>
> very good at this electronics "re-configuring" stuff

probably the motor can be pushed by hand when idle. If not i'll just take
control of the motor wires and drive it with a external circuit in reverse.

ST

Showoff ;-)

Chris

> probably the motor can be pushed by hand when idle. If not i'll just

take

> control of the motor wires and drive it with a external circuit in

reverse.

>
> ST
>

Steve,

Any news on the results of this test - we are all anxiously awaiting
your comments ;-) As I didn't sleep last night, I will blame that on
you for not posting the results ;-)

> Even if this requires thin PCB in the printers that don't handle

thick

> stuff, I'm stoked! I'm off to cut a sheet to run through my Epson

5000

> (MIS pigmented ink). I have FeCl already.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>

Sorry.... first test not fully successful. Details here:
http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/DirectInkjetPCBs/index.html

Next steps:
1. Get a better scrubby pad
2. Wipe down with 99% isopropyl
3. Pre-etch
4. Lift the pizza wheels
5. Heat the board before printing

I'll be updating the results to that page.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Steve,
>
> Any news on the results of this test - we are all anxiously awaiting
> your comments ;-) As I didn't sleep last night, I will blame that on
> you for not posting the results ;-)

If ink beads so much, I'd try using DRAFT quality. Maybe this is one
situation where less is better.

Robert
:)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Steve
> Envoyé : avril 27 2006 11:56
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct inkjet resist printing using
> MIS pigmented inks
>
>
> Sorry.... first test not fully successful. Details here:
> http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/DirectInkjetPCBs/index.html
>
> Next steps:
> 1. Get a better scrubby pad
> 2. Wipe down with 99% isopropyl
> 3. Pre-etch
> 4. Lift the pizza wheels
> 5. Heat the board before printing
>
> I'll be updating the results to that page.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > Any news on the results of this test - we are all anxiously awaiting
> > your comments ;-) As I didn't sleep last night, I will
> blame that on
> > you for not posting the results ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Except that is a lower resolution, isn't it?

I would turn color correction back on in the driver and turn the
sliders down to reduce the ink without reducing the resolution.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:

>
> If ink beads so much, I'd try using DRAFT quality. Maybe this is one
> situation where less is better.


> > Sorry.... first test not fully successful. Details here:
> > http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/DirectInkjetPCBs/index.html
> >
> > Next steps:
> > 1. Get a better scrubby pad
> > 2. Wipe down with 99% isopropyl
> > 3. Pre-etch
> > 4. Lift the pizza wheels
> > 5. Heat the board before printing

I have no idea, it just was a suggestion if nothing else works.

Robert
:)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Steve
> Envoyé : avril 27 2006 12:24
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: RE : Direct inkjet resist
> printing using MIS pigmented inks
>
>
> Except that is a lower resolution, isn't it?
>
> I would turn color correction back on in the driver and turn
> the sliders down to reduce the ink without reducing the resolution.
>
> Steve Greenfield

Draft is usually one of two things, same amount of ink but head moves
twice as fast so may be misaligned a few 1/10ths of mm etc OR only
print every other 'pixel' so saving ink.........

Draft on my epson (900p photo, 5mm thick rear fed cd tray!) looks like
every other pixel, normal is well, normal, best is only use half of
the nozzles and print in half steps, I use it as it gives best result,
but after a few weeks of this only half the nozzles work and you have
to clean about 3 times to get the others going, which then stop after
a few prints, so you end up on 'best' forever........

Also 'transparency' on best prints all but squirts less ink out.

On 27/04/06, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
> I have no idea, it just was a suggestion if nothing else works.
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Steve
> > Envoyé : avril 27 2006 12:24
> > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: RE : Direct inkjet resist
> > printing using MIS pigmented inks
> >
> >
> > Except that is a lower resolution, isn't it?
> >
> > I would turn color correction back on in the driver and turn
> > the sliders down to reduce the ink without reducing the resolution.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--



Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford -

Robert Hedan wrote:

>I have no idea, it just was a suggestion if nothing else works.
>
>Robert
>:)
>
>
>
>>Except that is a lower resolution, isn't it?
>>
>>
>>

Pretty sure that inkjet firing is pretty much a go/no go process, not
metered. Any form of metering is either more/less shots in one spot or
lower resolution. Judging by the claimed 5700+ DPI resolutions on some
of their printers I'd say they're claiming everything including the
mostly overlapping dots and anything short of Vivid setting is less
shots and resolution.. Of course draft is minimal to be able to read
ok, so likely less than even the least setting on the normal color
settings and probably has gaps..

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>
> Pretty sure that inkjet firing is pretty much a go/no go process, not
> metered. Any form of metering is either more/less shots in one spot or
> lower resolution.

Not exactly. There are variable drop sizes in many new desktop inkjet
printers. I -think- that for a given DPI setting the droplet size
stays the same, but for higher resolutions it uses smaller droplets
with heavier coverage.

My old Canon BJC 6000 does two sets of nozzle checks, one very light
and thin. I think it's testing at two different droplet sizes.

> Judging by the claimed 5700+ DPI resolutions on some
> of their printers I'd say they're claiming everything including the
> mostly overlapping dots and anything short of Vivid setting is less
> shots and resolution.. Of course draft is minimal to be able to read
> ok, so likely less than even the least setting on the normal color
> settings and probably has gaps..

Yes, the heads are still the same 720dpi print heads, it's the
movement of the paper/head. Fine for photos, not as much use for
lineart such as PCBs.

Note that most Epsons are 720x1440, or 720x2880, and aren't there some
that claim 1440x5760?

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
> Sorry.... first test not fully successful. Details here:
> http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/DirectInkjetPCBs/index.html
>
> Next steps:
> 1. Get a better scrubby pad
> 2. Wipe down with 99% isopropyl
> 3. Pre-etch
> 4. Lift the pizza wheels
> 5. Heat the board before printing

Interesting. The board dried a bit overnight. Hot water rinse, the
puddled drops ran right off but most of the ink was rather difficult
to remove fully. On inspection, the 100% black area showed little
lines in the direction of print head travel. Likely not a blocked
nozzle as I ran a nozzle check just before printing. No other colors
showed this banding. It appears that a lot more ink than was needed
got laid down.

Got a better scrubby pad. Scrubbed board with mix of ammonia, filtered
water, and isopropyl until water sheets over all of printable surface.
Rinsed in hot water, rinse in filtered water, final rinse in filtered
water with a small amount of isopropyl added. Dried with clean cotton
towel and a hair drier.

It's currently sitting in my food drier set at 145F.

I am uncertain that I can raise the pizza wheels in the Epson 5000. I
forgot, it was late last night, I noticed that it does not have a
fully straight paper path. When the PCB came out, it was forced to
bend down slightly. I worry that if I remove the pizza wheels, it will
hit something else, and if I merely raise them it will still hit the
pizza wheels.

I may need to drag the 1520 out and load it up with the inks as it's
paper path is straight through. For now, I'll print from the 5000
as-is and disregard streaking from the pizza wheels.

Updated web page.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry.... first test not fully successful. Details here:
> > http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/DirectInkjetPCBs/index.html

Updated! Gist: Still way more ink that is probably needed, as it still
puddles, but it no longer strays outside the lines.

I've got this cooking in my food dryer at 145F right now. If it is
still looking wet after a few hours, I may stick it in the toaster
oven at a higher temp.

I should put something like a layer of Future on the back so I don't
waste etchant. Plus I can still use the back for the next test.

Next to try:
Whichever ink color/combo works best, use successively lighter prints
to vary the amount of ink. At some point the puddling should become
more acceptible before the ink dots get so far apart that traces get
holes.

Then thinner traces. It may turn out that wide areas and thin traces
require different amounts of ink, if so that should be a simple matter
of varying the shade of the trace. Naturally it would be much better
to find a setting that works for both!

Then the next experiment may be to load nothing but that color into
all 4 heads of another Epson. The reason being that the printer can
print at higher resolutions when using all heads, as compared to using
only one color or loading the selected color into the black head and
using "black ink only" settings.

Steve Greenfield

Steve, If the puddling stays within the boundries of the area you
want printed, why worry about it?

Chris

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@>

wrote:

> > >
> > > Sorry.... first test not fully successful. Details here:
> > > http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/DirectInkjetPCBs/index.html
>
> Updated! Gist: Still way more ink that is probably needed, as it

still

> puddles, but it no longer strays outside the lines.
>
> I've got this cooking in my food dryer at 145F right now. If it is
> still looking wet after a few hours, I may stick it in the toaster
> oven at a higher temp.
>
> I should put something like a layer of Future on the back so I

don't

> waste etchant. Plus I can still use the back for the next test.
>
> Next to try:
> Whichever ink color/combo works best, use successively lighter

prints

> to vary the amount of ink. At some point the puddling should become
> more acceptible before the ink dots get so far apart that traces

get

> holes.
>
> Then thinner traces. It may turn out that wide areas and thin

traces

> require different amounts of ink, if so that should be a simple

matter

> of varying the shade of the trace. Naturally it would be much

better

> to find a setting that works for both!
>
> Then the next experiment may be to load nothing but that color into
> all 4 heads of another Epson. The reason being that the printer can
> print at higher resolutions when using all heads, as compared to

using

> only one color or loading the selected color into the black head

and

> using "black ink only" settings.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Steve, If the puddling stays within the boundries of the area you
> want printed, why worry about it?

Puddles draw ink away from nearby areas.

Steve Greenfield

> > > > http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/DirectInkjetPCBs/index.html

04-28-2006: Black, Magenta, Yellow are dry even when rubbed fairly
hard. Cyan, Magenta/Yellow, and Combo Black appear dry but feel
slightly soft and crock a little when rubbed hard. Coated back and
larger blank areas of front with Future Acrylic Floor Polish in
preparation for etching, back into the food dryer.

FeCl acid bath, failure. First tried the method using a sponge brush
to wipe etchant across the PCB, ink wiped off in the hot etchant. Used
a baster to flush etchant across the rest of the board, even then the
ink dissolved off. Spots where ink had puddled were first to go,
presumably they weren't completely dry. Lasting long enough to make
slight impressions: Black, Magenta, and Yellow. Cleaned and scrubbed
board.

Tried the pre-etch suggested by some for toner transfer. Reprint
failure- ink bled outside the lines all over board. Cleaned and
scrubbed board, dried in toaster oven for an hour. Board slightly
orange due to oxidization. Got board hot just before feeding into
printer. Back to square one, but this time I'm drying it in the
toaster oven to try and get the ink truly dry.

I'll upload more pictures tomorrow.

Steve Greenfield

Finally, I almost completed my Epson CX4200
modification and I uploaded the results of printing
before and after etching. I premix magenta(10ml),
yellow(15 ml), cyan(5ml) and used as a cyan cartridge,
as a printing color I selected black.
Modification of printer also required a paper emulator
circuit to fake the printer. I also did some tests for
alignment by making multiple prints on same material
it seems it is perfectly aligned. As a next step I
will try double side PCB printing.
Notes:
-Photos are under folder Photos/volkan's
-If high resolution images are required I can e-mail
them.
I need to sleep now....
Volkan

Hi Volkan,

Great progress!

the pictures are a little dark. Email the high res to
me and i'll run them through photoshot ot lighten them
up.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:

> Finally, I almost completed my Epson CX4200
> modification and I uploaded the results of printing
> before and after etching. I premix magenta(10ml),
> yellow(15 ml), cyan(5ml) and used as a cyan
> cartridge,
> as a printing color I selected black.
> Modification of printer also required a paper
> emulator
> circuit to fake the printer. I also did some tests
> for
> alignment by making multiple prints on same
> material
> it seems it is perfectly aligned. As a next step I
> will try double side PCB printing.
> Notes:
> -Photos are under folder Photos/volkan's
> -If high resolution images are required I can e-mail
> them.
> I need to sleep now....
> Volkan
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Yes, great results again.

Good to hear the mixing worked.

i would like to see the large photos please, and i would put them up on
the webspace again like the last ones if you allow.

I think we need to talk about the curing you do, again, at some point,
because this is what Steve seems to have most trouble with.

I can't wait for the ink and printer to arrive...

ST

On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 13:36:20 +0200, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>
wrote:

> Hi Volkan,
>
>
> Great progress!
>
>
> the pictures are a little dark. Email the high res to
>
> me and i'll run them through photoshot ot lighten them
>
> up.
>
>
> TANSTAAFL!
>
>
> Myc

This is starting to sound like bad news to me :-( It is odd that I
got the durabrite ink to hold up to etching and such by just
applying it to "stock fresh" copper. However, brushing these inks
is a world apart from having them sprayed on via the printer.

I sure hope you get some success soon, there are a handful of us out
here that have already got printers and/or ink waiting in hopes this
will work :-|

I have the MIS inks here but the printer is not ready yet. I might
still try a couple things later today. Perhaps I could put the ink
in an air brush or something and spray it on the PCB material for
testing ?

Chris

> FeCl acid bath, failure. First tried the method using a sponge

brush

> to wipe etchant across the PCB, ink wiped off in the hot etchant.

Used

> a baster to flush etchant across the rest of the board, even then

the

> ink dissolved off. Spots where ink had puddled were first to go,
> presumably they weren't completely dry. Lasting long enough to make
> slight impressions: Black, Magenta, and Yellow. Cleaned and

scrubbed

> board.
>
> Tried the pre-etch suggested by some for toner transfer. Reprint
> failure- ink bled outside the lines all over board. Cleaned and
> scrubbed board, dried in toaster oven for an hour. Board slightly
> orange due to oxidization. Got board hot just before feeding into
> printer. Back to square one, but this time I'm drying it in the
> toaster oven to try and get the ink truly dry.
>
> I'll upload more pictures tomorrow.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>

>before and after etching. I premix magenta(10ml),
>yellow(15 ml), cyan(5ml) and used as a cyan cartridge,
>as a printing color I selected black.

What really pre-mix means:
that the components are different and they react each to other to make a
water resistant one?
Cristian

In my previous experiments I realized that yellow is the most etch resistant one, second is magenta third is cyan and worst one is black. In color black printing my printer uses cyan, magenta and yellow to generate black. To minimize the effects of clogged nozzles it is much better to use 3 color and select black to have almost equal contribution from each color. You can only use yellow for each cartridge which results most etch resistant ink on your PCB but yellow is transparent and difficult to do visual inspection because of that I mixed the inks and used as a cyan cartridge.
Volkan

cristian <cristianbip@...> wrote:
What really pre-mix means:
that the components are different and they react each to other to make a
water resistant one?
Cristian




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> This is starting to sound like bad news to me :-( It is odd that I
> got the durabrite ink to hold up to etching and such by just
> applying it to "stock fresh" copper. However, brushing these inks
> is a world apart from having them sprayed on via the printer.

Not necessarily bad. Toner transfer must be done just right to be
successful, as must photo-resist and anything else. We're just
figuring out what "just right" is.

Printing puts down a -lot- less ink than brushing a blob on will do.

> I sure hope you get some success soon, there are a handful of us out
> here that have already got printers and/or ink waiting in hopes this
> will work :-|
>
> I have the MIS inks here but the printer is not ready yet. I might
> still try a couple things later today. Perhaps I could put the ink
> in an air brush or something and spray it on the PCB material for
> testing ?

I suppose, however it just won't be the same. The ink will have longer
to dry on the way to the surface and won't be the same density.

My board is still cooking the ink dry at about 180 to 200F in the
toaster oven. Not likely to find time to test etch until tomorrow.

Definitely can't use the foam brush method of etching. Even after a
day of drying, I can scratch the ink off with a fingernail.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:

>
> Finally, I almost completed my Epson CX4200
> modification and I uploaded the results of printing
> before and after etching. I premix magenta(10ml),
> yellow(15 ml), cyan(5ml) and used as a cyan cartridge,
> as a printing color I selected black.
> Modification of printer also required a paper emulator
> circuit to fake the printer. I also did some tests for
> alignment by making multiple prints on same material
> it seems it is perfectly aligned. As a next step I
> will try double side PCB printing.
> Notes:
> -Photos are under folder Photos/volkan's
> -If high resolution images are required I can e-mail
> them.

Very nice!

Email the high res images to me and I'll upload them to my website.
alienrelics(at)yahoo(dot)com

Steve Greenfield

At 10:18 PM 4/29/2006, you wrote:

>In my previous experiments I realized that yellow is the most etch
>resistant one, second is magenta third is cyan and worst one is black. In
>color black printing my printer uses cyan, magenta and yellow to generate
>black.

Is this the right MIS order?

1. Wide format Funnel Fill
Cartridge #CFZ-T5431-PK-FF $38
2. AutoReset Chip, Black, for
4600 #CHP-AR-C84K $15
3. Yellow #MISPRO
4Y $18
4. Magenta #MISPRO
4M $18
5. Cyan #MISPRO 2C $12
total
$101

Alternate Chip job (more expensive than AutoReset):
1. Chip Reseter #SK188 $59.95
2. Chip, Black, for
4600 #CHP-R-C84RK $1.95

On 4600 is the same chip as on C84.
Cristian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Cristian,
Inks are ok.


--- cristian <cristianbip@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
At 10:18 PM 4/29/2006, you wrote:

>In my previous experiments I realized that yellow is

the most etch

>resistant one, second is magenta third is cyan and

worst one is black. In

>color black printing my printer uses cyan, magenta

and yellow to generate

>black.

Is this the right MIS order?

1. Wide format Funnel Fill
Cartridge #CFZ-T5431-PK-FF
$38
2. AutoReset Chip, Black, for
4600 #CHP-AR-C84K $15
3. Yellow
#MISPRO
4Y $18
4. Magenta
#MISPRO
4M $18
5. Cyan #MISPRO 2C
$12

total
$101

Alternate Chip job (more expensive than AutoReset):
1. Chip Reseter #SK188
$59.95
2. Chip, Black, for
4600 #CHP-R-C84RK
$1.95

On 4600 is the same chip as on C84.
Cristian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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You can get chip resetters for all epson on ebay for well less than $10.
59,95 must surely be wrong for the resetter.

Also note that some printers can be reset or at least frozen by software.

ST



On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:43:51 +0200, cristian <cristianbip@...>
wrote:

> Is this the right MIS order?
>
>
> 1. Wide format Funnel Fill
>
> Cartridge #CFZ-T5431-PK-FF $38
>
> 2. AutoReset Chip, Black, for
>
> 4600 #CHP-AR-C84K $15
>
> 3. Yellow #MISPRO
>
> 4Y $18
>
> 4. Magenta #MISPRO
>
> 4M $18
>
> 5. Cyan #MISPRO 2C
> $12
>
> total
>
> $101
>
>
> Alternate Chip job (more expensive than AutoReset):
>
> 1. Chip Reseter #SK188
> $59.95
>
> 2. Chip, Black, for
>
> 4600 #CHP-R-C84RK $1.95
>
>
> On 4600 is the same chip as on C84.
>
> Cristian
>
>

I put the high-res images into the same folder as before:

<www.trethan.at.tf/pub/volkan>

I think i can see pizza wheel marks there. But they don't seem to have
done much damage.
Now that tells me Volkan must somehow have a different amount of ink than
Steve has...

I wonder if the specific type and setting of the printer is more important
than i first thought...

ST

Damn! Those are some fine looking boards again! I sure hope this
all don't turn into on of those "P.F.M." type things where it will
only work for person X, and Day 22, of the 7th month, in the year of
the dragon, when the moon is in full phase, and the re-run episode
of mythbusters where Adam cuts his lip on a vacuum motor is playing

;-)





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> I put the high-res images into the same folder as before:
>
> <www.trethan.at.tf/pub/volkan>
>
> I think i can see pizza wheel marks there. But they don't seem to

have

> done much damage.
> Now that tells me Volkan must somehow have a different amount of

ink than

> Steve has...
>
> I wonder if the specific type and setting of the printer is more

important

> than i first thought...
>
> ST
>

Volkan Sahin wrote:

>Hi Cristian,
>Inks are ok.
>
>
>
>

http://www.compusa.com/adproducts/product_info.asp?product_code=334195&pfp=cat3


If the Durabright ultra inks themselves are useable, this one is on
sale this week in the US and not too bad a price..

I just did a shopping cart for my C84, just waiting to finalize the
mechanics and get the printer back up and 'sliding' before ordering. My
resetter was cheaper:

1 - SK168 universal chip resetter for epson chipped cartridges $19.95/ea.

I'm also getting:

4 - SLC-2400E empty spongeless cartridge w/out chip $5.50/ea.
1 - MISPRO42-SET-MK mispro inkset with universal black 4 2oz bottles $48/ea.
4 - MIS-BADP bottom fill adapter $0.50/ea.
4 - MIS-SYRINGE 10cc lure lock $1.00/ea.
4 - MIS-NEEDLE 20ga lure lock needle 1.5" long $0.25/ea.

I'm getting some spares for the refill accessories. Even if I'm going to
clean them after each use, I'm going to assign one syringe/needle/refiller
set for each ink to ensure no cross-contamination.

After seeing how little ink goes in the stock sponge-type cartridges, I
never want to deal with those again. The spongeless type seem much more
interesting as long as you follow procedure. I'm not going for a remote ink
system yet, not until I see the need.

There are cheaper prices elsewhere, but I prefer to encourage specialty
vendors. This MIS ink might be the best thing for us, I believe in
encouraging them whenever I can. Dealing with multiple vendors is not
always more efficient.

Robert
:)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Stefan Trethan
> Envoyé : avril 30 2006 03:38
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct inkjet resist on 1.6mm
> FR4 results
>
>
> You can get chip resetters for all epson on ebay for well
> less than $10. 59,95 must surely be wrong for the resetter.
>
> Also note that some printers can be reset or at least frozen
> by software.
>
> ST
>
>
>
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:43:51 +0200, cristian
> <cristianbip@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Is this the right MIS order?
> >
> >
> > 1. Wide format Funnel Fill
> >
> > Cartridge #CFZ-T5431-PK-FF $38
> >
> > 2. AutoReset Chip, Black, for
> >
> > 4600 #CHP-AR-C84K $15
> >
> > 3. Yellow #MISPRO
> >
> > 4Y $18
> >
> > 4. Magenta #MISPRO
> >
> > 4M $18
> >
> > 5. Cyan #MISPRO 2C
>
> > $12
> >
> >
> total
> >
> > $101
> >
> >
> > Alternate Chip job (more expensive than AutoReset):
> >
> > 1. Chip Reseter #SK188
>
> > $59.95
> >
> > 2. Chip, Black, for
> >
> > 4600 #CHP-R-C84RK $1.95
> >
> >
> > On 4600 is the same chip as on C84.
> >
> > Cristian
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
> Files, and Photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them
> here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

SAVE $30 after mail-in rebate(s) <--- I've got 2 manufacturers screwing me
with this, nearly $200 of funds in all.
$89.99 + $15.99 shipping <-- not even sure they ship to Canada
$105.69

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6870883076 <-- I
bought this one.
Epson Stylus CX3810 All-In-One InkJet Printer BRAND NEW
$38.00 + $24.99 shipping + $2.00 insurance
$64.99

CompUSA take not take PayPal, only Wisa & MasterCard.

Robert
:)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Alan King
> Envoyé : avril 30 2006 11:27
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct inkjet resist on 1.6mm
> FR4 results
>
>
> Volkan Sahin wrote:
>
> >Hi Cristian,
> >Inks are ok.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> http://www.compusa.com/adproducts/product_info.asp?product_cod

e=334195&pfp=cat3


If the Durabright ultra inks themselves are useable, this one is on
sale this week in the US and not too bad a price..




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Yahoo! Groups Links

Robert Hedan wrote:

>SAVE $30 after mail-in rebate(s) <--- I've got 2 manufacturers screwing me
>
>

Epson rebate, no doubt take a while but haven't heard many real
complaints on them in case anyone is wondering..

>CompUSA take not take PayPal, only Wisa & MasterCard.
>
>
>

Taking Paypal payments, and since most people don't seem to keep a
PayPal balance and since the payment ends up hitting their Visa/MC I
don't see too much difference here for most people. CompUSA is easy if
you have one in range, and no random Ebay or shipper problems either.
Pretty much a wash.

Alan

On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:02:10 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> Damn! Those are some fine looking boards again! I sure hope this
>
> all don't turn into on of those "P.F.M." type things where it will
>
> only work for person X, and Day 22, of the 7th month, in the year of
>
> the dragon, when the moon is in full phase, and the re-run episode
>
> of mythbusters where Adam cuts his lip on a vacuum motor is playing
>
>
>
>

LOL, now that is so incredibly stupid it may just have been me.
No, actually i don't think so, i have too much respect of the fast
spinning ~1kW vacuum motor.
But only yesterday when makign a pizza i decided grabbing into the mixer
hooks while it is still running is a good idea, so who knows...
And there was that ammonia thing only recently...


No i think this inkjet printing will be like TT. Bit hard to figure out
but great once it is working for you.

I'm thinking, if Volkan can do it there must be a way to replicate it.
Worst case i will get exactly the same printer as he has and do exactly
the same things, settings, board prep., etc..

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> I wonder if the specific type and setting of the printer is more

important

> than i first thought...

That's what I've been saying.

Volkan, if you posted your settings I missed them. Could you tell us
what you have the printer driver settings on?

Actually, would you mind just posting all the details again, ink,
printer, board prep, printer driver settings?

Thanks,
Steve Greenfield

I figured you would see the humor in that one - you watch that show
too :-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:02:10 +0200, lcdpublishing
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> > Damn! Those are some fine looking boards again! I sure hope

this

> >
> > all don't turn into on of those "P.F.M." type things where it

will

> >
> > only work for person X, and Day 22, of the 7th month, in the

year of

> >
> > the dragon, when the moon is in full phase, and the re-run

episode

> >
> > of mythbusters where Adam cuts his lip on a vacuum motor is

playing

> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> LOL, now that is so incredibly stupid it may just have been me.
> No, actually i don't think so, i have too much respect of the

fast

> spinning ~1kW vacuum motor.
> But only yesterday when makign a pizza i decided grabbing into the

mixer

> hooks while it is still running is a good idea, so who knows...
> And there was that ammonia thing only recently...
>
>
> No i think this inkjet printing will be like TT. Bit hard to

figure out

> but great once it is working for you.
>
> I'm thinking, if Volkan can do it there must be a way to replicate

it.

> Worst case i will get exactly the same printer as he has and do

exactly

> the same things, settings, board prep., etc..
>
> ST
>

On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 21:16:29 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> I figured you would see the humor in that one - you watch that show
>
> too

_did_ watch beeing the terrible reality, doesn't play on any channels i
can see right now..


ST

Summary of the inkjet PCB steps (mostly cut and paste from previous e-mails),

-Using 'Scotch-Brite' and 'Ajax with Bleach' I cleaned the board.
-Using Tarn-X I removed oxide once more.
-As a tray I used ~20 mils (0.5mm) aluminum sheet, using scotch tape I fixed the PCB on tray
-I handled the PCB carefully to a flat surface since ink was still wet. After waiting 5 minutes I dried it completely by holding it around 1" (2.5cm) above the electrical stove and started to dry it from reverse side firstly.
-I etched the board using Ferric Chloride solution.

I will also upload my printer setting as a pdf file under Files/Epson_inkjet_Volkan folder
Inks order codes (that's written on the bottles):
-MP-2-C Cyan
-MP-2-M Magenta
-MP-2-Y Yellow
As a printer CX4200 is used. You can get different results with other series since this printer has same number of nozzles for each color. It has 4 columns of nozzles. During 1/16" (1.6mm) FR4 printing experiment, I selected black color (not black only option on printer) and substitute cyan color with my own color mix.
Cheers,
Volkan





Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> I wonder if the specific type and setting of the printer is more

important

> than i first thought...

That's what I've been saying.

Volkan, if you posted your settings I missed them. Could you tell us
what you have the printer driver settings on?

Actually, would you mind just posting all the details again, ink,
printer, board prep, printer driver settings?

Thanks,
Steve Greenfield






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, if it helps take away some of the withdrawl pains, the show
isn't nearly as good now as it used to be. It is getting much
more "hollywood" :-(

Chris


-- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 21:16:29 +0200, lcdpublishing
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> > I figured you would see the humor in that one - you watch that show
> >
> > too
>
>
> _did_ watch beeing the terrible reality, doesn't play on any

channels i

> can see right now..
>
>
> ST
>

> stefan_trethan wrote:
>
> I put the high-res images into the same folder as before:
>
> <www.trethan.at.tf/pub/volkan>
>

<snip>

Wow - I am realy amazed at the quality of these.

I don't think I would give up photographic for
ink-jet exclusivly. But I would pay a few grand
to set myself up to make quick one offs if it
ever gets fully sorted.

Elsewhere someone said they where etched with Fe-Cl.

Do we know if other chemistry will work ? I am in
love with CuCl as I don't have to ever go through the
difficulty of disposal.

I wonder if the Tarn-X is leaving a micron thick film
of some sort, or an electrostatic charge or an ionic
bond for the ink to grab before being roasted dry.

I don't recall Steve using Tarn-X in his experiments.
My wife uses Goddards jewellery cleaner, (don't know
whether this is the same thing) and it does strange
things to some metal oxides as I recall.

Eye of frog and tail of.....

Something is happening here which allows Volkan to
achieve such good results.

Roger

>--- Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
>Summary of the inkjet PCB steps (mostly cut and paste
>from previous e-mails),
>
> -Using 'Scotch-Brite' and 'Ajax with Bleach' I

.cleaned the board.

>-Using Tarn-X I removed oxide once more.
>-As a tray I used ~20 mils (0.5mm) aluminum sheet,
>using scotch tape I fixed the PCB on tray
> -I handled the PCB carefully to a flat surface
>since ink was still wet. After waiting
>5 minutes I dried it completely by holding it around
>1" (2.5cm) above the electrical stove and started
>to dry it from reverse side firstly.
>-I etched the board using Ferric Chloride solution.

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On Mon, 01 May 2006 14:31:34 +0200, roger lucas <ralucas4277@...>
wrote:

> I wonder if the Tarn-X is leaving a micron thick film
>
> of some sort, or an electrostatic charge or an ionic
>
> bond for the ink to grab before being roasted dry.
>
>
> I don't recall Steve using Tarn-X in his experiments.
>
> My wife uses Goddards jewellery cleaner, (don't know
>
> whether this is the same thing) and it does strange
>
> things to some metal oxides as I recall.
>
>
> Eye of frog and tail of.....
>
>
> Something is happening here which allows Volkan to
>
> achieve such good results.
>
>
> Roger
>

Let's just wait for some more trials before we resort to dark magic and
get the cauldrons out. ;-)


ST

Stefan,

Just thinking aloud, unfortunately I can't help in the
development process as I don't have the required inks.

Anyways one eyed frogs are in short supply right now.

Roger


--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> Let's just wait for some more trials before we
> resort to dark magic and
> get the cauldrons out. ;-)
>
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post
> them here:
>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/

>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>

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On Mon, 01 May 2006 14:53:16 +0200, roger lucas <ralucas4277@...>
wrote:

> Stefan,
>
>
> Just thinking aloud, unfortunately I can't help in the
>
> development process as I don't have the required inks.
>
>
> Anyways one eyed frogs are in short supply right now.
>
>
> Roger

I'm hoping to have the stuff this week.
If it doesn't work we must figure out ways to narrow down the process into
several steps and find what exactly isn't working.

So far it looks to me as if steve is having most trouble with ink
amount/layer thickness. The obvious thing to try next would be to get a
printer that uses the same head as the ones Voklan used.

I sorta expect the same problem, since the printer i will be getting is
old and low resolution, but we will see....

ST

One of the things that sets this sort of experimentation apart from
the usual "at work developments" is that we can all have a bit more
fun with it.

While I am not opposed to black magic, voodoo, etc., I am hopeful we
dont have to resort to it either :-)

With a spot of luck, be next weekend I will be caught up enough on my
current projects to dive back into testing. I have the printer and
the ink, just not the "smarts" or time. Without the time, I can't get
the "smarts" by experimenting.

> Anyways one eyed frogs are in short supply right now.

I think I saw some on sale at Meijers, I will check again later today!

Chris

Stefan, I don't have time for involved testing and tinkering this
week, I do have a bit of time to try some things. I mentioned air-
brushing some ink on a board. Do you think there are any tests I
could do using that process that would help?

Chris

>
> I'm hoping to have the stuff this week.
> If it doesn't work we must figure out ways to narrow down the

process into

> several steps and find what exactly isn't working.
>
> So far it looks to me as if steve is having most trouble with ink
> amount/layer thickness. The obvious thing to try next would be to

get a

> printer that uses the same head as the ones Voklan used.
>
> I sorta expect the same problem, since the printer i will be

getting is

> old and low resolution, but we will see....
>
> ST
>

I don't think it would say much.

ST


On Mon, 01 May 2006 15:10:49 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> Stefan, I don't have time for involved testing and tinkering this
>
> week, I do have a bit of time to try some things. I mentioned air-
>
> brushing some ink on a board. Do you think there are any tests I
>
> could do using that process that would help?
>
>
> Chris

I was afraid of that :-(


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> I don't think it would say much.
>
> ST
>
>
> On Mon, 01 May 2006 15:10:49 +0200, lcdpublishing
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> > Stefan, I don't have time for involved testing and tinkering this
> >
> > week, I do have a bit of time to try some things. I mentioned

air-

> >
> > brushing some ink on a board. Do you think there are any tests I
> >
> > could do using that process that would help?
> >
> >
> > Chris
>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> > Anyways one eyed frogs are in short supply right now.
>
> I think I saw some on sale at Meijers, I will check again later

today!

>
> Chris
>

Most of them have three or more eyes these days.

To Volkan and others printing with the Yellow MISPRo ink

If you get the opportunity, perhaps you could try viewing your ink mix
under "Black light". If it Fluoresces then this may be the way to
verify the coverage and yet still use only the most etch resistant ink.



You can only use yellow for each cartridge which results most etch
resistant ink on your PCB but yellow is transparent and difficult to do
visual inspection because of that I mixed the inks and used as a cyan
cartridge.

Wouldn't just a few drops of black make the yellow very visible?

Robert
:)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de warrenbrayshaw
> Envoyé : mai 2 2006 18:20
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct inkjet resist on 1.6mm FR4 results
>
>

...

>
> You can only use yellow for each cartridge which results most etch
> resistant ink on your PCB but yellow is transparent and
> difficult to do
> visual inspection because of that I mixed the inks and used as a cyan
> cartridge.
>