Homebrew PCBs

When I dropped off my youngest daughter back a t college after Easter 
Break today, i got a chance to use her Epson C66 printer with 
Durabrite ink.

I had "conveniently" brought along a couple of sheets of thin pcb 
material. This material was scoured with a scotchbrite, but not etched 
with Tarn-x.

I just printed some text onto the sheets to check the durability of 
the ink.

The print quality was very good, but I noticed that on closer 
inspection afterward it must have been set on draft quality. I could 
see the individual ink lines making up the letters. but I proceeded 
anyways.

After air drying, I tested a spot with a wet swab, the ink came off 
easily. The I prceeded to use a hair dryer to heat the pcb to the 
point where i could not hold it. After letting the pcb cool, I tested 
the printing with a wet swab again, it was durable! I then ran the 
printing under very hot water for a few minutes and it held.

Of course, then put samples in 2 different etching baths, both FeCl 
and the H202/ Muratic acid. I could see that the printing was holding 
up, but when I pulled the 2 boards from their respective baths, there 
were only slight pieces of images left. Definitely not what I expected.

After swearing a bit and thinking about it, i realized that Ihad my 
first experience of undercutting. The very fine lines of the draft 
quality seemed to be etched away from underneath the resist.

The overall result was not acceptible, but it shows promise. It shows 
that the ink will adhere to the copper and be relatively permanent in 
waterThe prep of the copper is important as is the heating to 'cure' 
the ink. 
The next step is to try a pcb layout with reasonable solid lines.

Unfortunately, the printer (and my daughter too) are about an hours 
drive away.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

PS. Soap and hard rubbing with the wet sway would remove the cured ink.

Myc,

Don't forget you were using Durabrite, Volkan got his results using the
replacement MIS ink.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 22:54
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Epson direct pcb printing results


When I dropped off my youngest daughter back a t college after Easter 
Break today, i got a chance to use her Epson C66 printer with 
Durabrite ink.

...
The next step is to try a pcb layout with reasonable solid lines.

Unfortunately, the printer (and my daughter too) are about an hours 
drive away.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

PS. Soap and hard rubbing with the wet sway would remove the cured ink.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 04:54:17 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

>
>
>
> The print quality was very good, but I noticed that on closer
>
> inspection afterward it must have been set on draft quality. I could
>
> see the individual ink lines making up the letters. but I proceeded
>
> anyways.


could also be some nozzles were clogged. It is always good to run a nozzle  
test pattern beforehand, such things often are not noticeable on paper  
because it wicks together.

ST

Hi Stefan,

it didn't appear that the nozzles were blocked, unless
by a strange coincidence, every other one became
blocked at the same time. I'll post photos in a couple
of hours after the batteries charge up for the camera.

I did notice some durability problems with the ink.
The printing wwas screwed up on one board with large,
thick blobs of ink. I heated the blobs very well and
noticed that is was very powdery and came off easily
when touched.

I had also tried the Pulsar sponge method of etching
with FeCL. The patterns were wiped away.

Basesd on my textile printing and coating background,
I would say that the Durabrite ink, at least, has a
very weak discontinuous film holding the pigment
particles to the copper. This will make the resist
sensitive to a varity of facotrs. Not surprising,
since it was designed for absorbent paper fibers
rather than copper.

Note: i did not micro-etch with Tarn-x. The
micro-etching process worked to increase the scratch
resistance of the TEFLON used on pots and pans.

To corect this problem on textiles, I would try to
recure the ink and increase the binder levels or add a
catalyst. If that didn't work I would look at the
surface preparation of the fabric, making sure there
were no residual oils.

I'm starting to get the impression that direct to pcb
inkjet printing will be like the Toner Transfer
process, it is do-able, but subtle variations in
tecniques will reduce the reliability. Each person
tryng this process will have to fine tune it for his
conditions.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc





--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 04:54:17 +0200, mycroft2152
> <mycroft2152@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > The print quality was very good, but I noticed
> that on closer
> >
> > inspection afterward it must have been set on
> draft quality. I could
> >
> > see the individual ink lines making up the
> letters. but I proceeded
> >
> > anyways.
> 
> 
> could also be some nozzles were clogged. It is
> always good to run a nozzle  
> test pattern beforehand, such things often are not
> noticeable on paper  
> because it wicks together.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post
> them here:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 


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>I'm starting to get the impression that direct to pcb
>inkjet printing will be like the Toner Transfer
>process

Well, TANSTAAFL! But seriously, if off-the-shelf inks won't work then 
dabble a bit in some homebrew ink chemistry. The "no sponge" type empty 
ink cartridges would be ideal for ink experiments. You can wash them 
out and start again.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...> 
wrote:
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:41:19 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> Well, TANSTAAFL! But seriously, if off-the-shelf inks won't work then
>
> dabble a bit in some homebrew ink chemistry. The "no sponge" type empty
>
> ink cartridges would be ideal for ink experiments. You can wash them
>
> out and start again.


If only it was that easy!

The cartridge may be easy to wash out, but once you got something "bad"  
into the printhead you can toss the printer.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "derekhawkins" <eldata@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:41 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson direct pcb printing results


> >I'm starting to get the impression that direct to pcb
>>inkjet printing will be like the Toner Transfer
>>process
>
> Well, TANSTAAFL! But seriously, if off-the-shelf inks won't work then
> dabble a bit in some homebrew ink chemistry. The "no sponge" type empty
> ink cartridges would be ideal for ink experiments. You can wash them
> out and start again.

It would probably be best to forget the printer, initially, and just paint 
the ink on. I used to make PCBs that way, many years ago, with cellulose 
paint. It was quite an effective resist, much better than those expensive 
Dalo pens that were sold for the purpose. Perhaps it could be thinned down 
and put into an ink cartridge. 8-)

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

havent tried it, buuut print a reverse on a cleaned
pcb with a hacked injet printer(to get the pcb
through), then let it dry, then paint on the wetted
solder paste derik suggested, melt the solder and it
will adhere to the copper but bead up on the carbon
that is in the ink. wash off the excess ink and
solder--then etch.
mebo 



--- derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> >I'm starting to get the impression that direct to
> pcb
> >inkjet printing will be like the Toner Transfer
> >process
> 
> Well, TANSTAAFL! But seriously, if off-the-shelf
> inks won't work then 
> dabble a bit in some homebrew ink chemistry. The "no
> sponge" type empty 
> ink cartridges would be ideal for ink experiments.
> You can wash them 
> out and start again.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152
> <mycroft2152@...> 
> wrote:
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com

>The cartridge may be easy to wash out, but once you got 
>something "bad" into the printhead you can toss the printer.

How bad is "bad" would depend on the "chemist". But I'm just here to 
encourage our brave young (and old) pioneers...Let them know we're 
right behind them (albeit beyond arrow's reach) to pluck their arrows, 
heal their wounds and bury (after going through their pockets of 
course) when necessary.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:06:46 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> It would probably be best to forget the printer, initially, and just  
> paint
>
> the ink on. I used to make PCBs that way, many years ago, with cellulose
>
> paint. It was quite an effective resist, much better than those expensive
>
> Dalo pens that were sold for the purpose. Perhaps it could be thinned  
> down
>
> and put into an ink cartridge.
>
>
> Leon


Volkan has done thatn hand painting in the color trial.
I do no longer think other (non printer) inks are a good way to go. I  
remember now why i bought this old epson, many moons ago it was said  
acrylic floor polish would work. Well it didn't for me.

The yellow and magenta seem to hold up very well, and they are meant for  
inkjets, so IMO that seems like a good thing to use.

ST

>Volkan has done thatn hand painting in the color trial.

With all due respects to Volkan...But what about the ink from MIS that 
he claimed worked and you echoing same? Was its etch resist properties 
never tested? Is it no longer a candidate in terms of suitability? 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:30:50 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
>
> With all due respects to Volkan...But what about the ink from MIS that
>
> he claimed worked and you echoing same? Was its etch resist properties
>
> never tested? Is it no longer a candidate in terms of suitability?


Sure it is. He has found out that "black" isn't really "black" only but a  
color mixture, so he has done a test of the different colors "by hand",  
which is great. I really don't understand what you mean at all. I don't  
see the color thing as a hindrance to using this ink at all. IMO it is the  
best bet for inkjet printing right now, and it is known working, and it is  
relatively cheap and easy to get - i have no desire at all to try  
something else.

ST

>I really don't understand what you mean at all.

I assumed Volkan had bought a new printer and was using the inks that 
came with it based on what he said below;

=============================
Hi Chris,
   You are right the most important advantage is the accuracy. Indeed 
that's why I have started. My goal is to use my cnc to drill and cut 
the pcb.

If you are looking for a cheap Epson printer C68 is a good candidate 
another option can be C88. Today, I did shopping and bought it. I 
disassembled it and did some minor modifications which resulted a 
nice printed out on 1.6 mm PCB. I need to think about a little bit 
more how to fool the printer to get aligned double side printing. It 
seems not so easy.
=============================

Correct me if I'm wrong. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152@...>
wrote:
>
> When I dropped off my youngest daughter back a t college after Easter 
> Break today, i got a chance to use her Epson C66 printer with 
> Durabrite ink.
> 
> I had "conveniently" brought along a couple of sheets of thin pcb 
> material. This material was scoured with a scotchbrite, but not etched 
> with Tarn-x.

What a co-incidence! ;')

> After air drying, I tested a spot with a wet swab, the ink came off 
> easily. The I prceeded to use a hair dryer to heat the pcb to the 
> point where i could not hold it. After letting the pcb cool, I tested 
> the printing with a wet swab again, it was durable! I then ran the 
> printing under very hot water for a few minutes and it held.

I'm not surprised. The ink has several solvents in the carrier, the
actual ink is only a fraction of a percent. It contains some agents to
keep the ink from drying too quickly, so that the heads don't clog
constantly. I think glycerin is used both to slow drying, and to
thicken it so it doesn't keep spreading in the paper.

Inkjet ink can take days to dry.

> Of course, then put samples in 2 different etching baths, both FeCl 
> and the H202/ Muratic acid. I could see that the printing was holding 
> up, but when I pulled the 2 boards from their respective baths, there 
> were only slight pieces of images left. Definitely not what I expected.
> 
> After swearing a bit and thinking about it, i realized that Ihad my 
> first experience of undercutting. The very fine lines of the draft 
> quality seemed to be etched away from underneath the resist.
> 
> The overall result was not acceptible, but it shows promise. It shows 
> that the ink will adhere to the copper and be relatively permanent in 
> waterThe prep of the copper is important as is the heating to 'cure' 
> the ink. 
> The next step is to try a pcb layout with reasonable solid lines.
> 
> Unfortunately, the printer (and my daughter too) are about an hours 
> drive away.
> 
> TANSTAAFL!
> 
> Myc
> 
> PS. Soap and hard rubbing with the wet sway would remove the cured ink.
>

Next step after this is mostly perfected, printing on aluminum! Super
duper customized full color front panels, anyone? Harden the ink and a
layer of clear overcoat.

Dang, all this time I've had this type of ink in my printer. Closest I
got to copper was accidentally printing on the wrong (uncoated) side
of a transparency, it just beaded up. It looks like (as in TT) that
prep of the copper is an important part of the equation.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "derekhawkins" <eldata@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:41 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson direct pcb printing results
> 
> 
> > >I'm starting to get the impression that direct to pcb
> >>inkjet printing will be like the Toner Transfer
> >>process
> >
> > Well, TANSTAAFL! But seriously, if off-the-shelf inks won't work then
> > dabble a bit in some homebrew ink chemistry. The "no sponge" type
empty
> > ink cartridges would be ideal for ink experiments. You can wash them
> > out and start again.
> 
> It would probably be best to forget the printer, initially, and just
paint 
> the ink on. I used to make PCBs that way, many years ago, with
cellulose 
> paint. It was quite an effective resist, much better than those
expensive 
> Dalo pens that were sold for the purpose. Perhaps it could be
thinned down 
> and put into an ink cartridge. 8-)

Painting inkjet ink will not give the same results. The printer lays a
-very- thin layer, much thinner (and more even) than you could ever do
just brushing it on.

Inkjet ink has a -lot- of work put into specific chemistries so that
the ink does not dry and clog the head, along with all the other
factors. Markers tend to carry ink that dries much faster than inkjet ink.

Why not just mix the yellow and magenta, and fill every cartridge in
an inkjet printer with it for PCBs? That way it doesn't matter that
the driver will use a mix of colors for black and for the edges where
it mixes multiple colors to get shades of grey.

Connect them all up to the same bulk ink bottle.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:30:50 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > With all due respects to Volkan...But what about the ink from MIS that
> >
> > he claimed worked and you echoing same? Was its etch resist properties
> >
> > never tested? Is it no longer a candidate in terms of suitability?
> 
> 
> Sure it is. He has found out that "black" isn't really "black" only
but a  
> color mixture, so he has done a test of the different colors "by
hand",  
> which is great.

To clarify: black is black. What he found (and I'd previously
suggested) is that which inks the printer uses to -get- black depend
on things like which paper type you select in the printer driver. As
it happens, with some settings it was mixing black and cyan, and as it
turns out those were the least effective, that yellow and magenta (in
that order) are the most effective.

> I really don't understand what you mean at all. I don't  
> see the color thing as a hindrance to using this ink at all. IMO it
is the  
> best bet for inkjet printing right now, and it is known working, and
it is  
> relatively cheap and easy to get - i have no desire at all to try  
> something else.

I agree. If it works, use it. It would only take a tiny mix of magenta
into the yellow to make it more visible on the copper. Yellow is
easily tainted by the smallest amounts of the other colors.

BTW, black inks in Canon, HP, and some other bubblejet printers are
actually pigmented inks, although the color is dye. This is not
necessarily true if you by aftermarket 3rd party inks for them. Just
an FYI. All my Canons now have aftermarket inks in them, so I can't
test them.

Steve Greenfield

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:18:37 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Why not just mix the yellow and magenta, and fill every cartridge in
>
> an inkjet printer with it for PCBs? That way it doesn't matter that
>
> the driver will use a mix of colors for black and for the edges where
>
> it mixes multiple colors to get shades of grey.
>
>
> Connect them all up to the same bulk ink bottle.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield


This would also work if one cartridge alone is not enough of a layer  
thickness.
Also maybe, just maybe, it could still work with one or two nozzles gone.

I would also be curious to use the inkjet to print a component legend, so  
i guess i would need one black cartridge if i don't want it yellow/magenta.

Or maybe just a little black added to the mix would do the trick without  
harming the resist function.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:18:37 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > Why not just mix the yellow and magenta, and fill every cartridge in
> > an inkjet printer with it for PCBs? That way it doesn't matter that
> > the driver will use a mix of colors for black and for the edges where
> > it mixes multiple colors to get shades of grey.
> >
> > Connect them all up to the same bulk ink bottle.
> >
> 
> This would also work if one cartridge alone is not enough of a layer  
> thickness.

You are also dealing with the complication of the printer driver. To
get smooth-edged transitions between black and white, it mixes colors
to get grey tones in order to anti-alias edges without stark black
dots. Printer RIPs are a whole wide area of knowledge...

> Also maybe, just maybe, it could still work with one or two nozzles
gone.

Why? It's easy enough to fix that. I print pigmented inks all the
time, it's easy enough to do a nozzle check and a test print onto paper.

> I would also be curious to use the inkjet to print a component
legend, so  
> i guess i would need one black cartridge if i don't want it
yellow/magenta.

That gets printed after etching, of course.

> Or maybe just a little black added to the mix would do the trick
without  
> harming the resist function.

That would be good! A tiny bit of black carries a long, long way... I
make my cleaning cartridges by injecting my solution into old
cartridges, usually the old empty dry ones that I got with the
printer. This way I can see progress in the nozzle checks. Even
seemingly empty cartridges when mixed with the solution will yeild
perfectly useable prints. Not photo prints, for sure, but more than
enough for printing receipts and websites.

So maybe mostly yellow with a small amount of black in the black, and
the correct colors in the rest. If the black is a little yellow-grey
on the component legend, that won't really matter.

Steve Greenfield

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:42:42 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> You are also dealing with the complication of the printer driver. To
> get smooth-edged transitions between black and white, it mixes colors
> to get grey tones in order to anti-alias edges without stark black
> dots. Printer RIPs are a whole wide area of knowledge...

Is there a way to switch that off, like "B/W only"? I don't really want  
smooth edges with PCBs, do i?
Is it a matter of printing with the color "usually in the cartridge" on  
the screen to get to use this one or is there a way to tell the printer  
which ink to use for which color on the screen?


>
> That would be good! A tiny bit of black carries a long, long way... I
> make my cleaning cartridges by injecting my solution into old
> cartridges, usually the old empty dry ones that I got with the
> printer. This way I can see progress in the nozzle checks. Even
> seemingly empty cartridges when mixed with the solution will yeild
> perfectly useable prints. Not photo prints, for sure, but more than
> enough for printing receipts and websites.
>
> So maybe mostly yellow with a small amount of black in the black, and
> the correct colors in the rest. If the black is a little yellow-grey
> on the component legend, that won't really matter.
>
> Steve Greenfield


Yes, that seems good, and we know black is not really harming the print  
since the original success was done with loads of black.
Only drawback is more money to invest in ink. Would there be any point in  
using the magenta at all if there is black in the mixture?

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:42:42 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > You are also dealing with the complication of the printer driver. To
> > get smooth-edged transitions between black and white, it mixes colors
> > to get grey tones in order to anti-alias edges without stark black
> > dots. Printer RIPs are a whole wide area of knowledge...
> 
> Is there a way to switch that off, like "B/W only"? I don't really
want  
> smooth edges with PCBs, do i?
> Is it a matter of printing with the color "usually in the cartridge"
on  
> the screen to get to use this one or is there a way to tell the
printer  
> which ink to use for which color on the screen?

You can use black ink only. In Printer Preferences, under Ink, click
Black.

However: you cannot tell the driver which color of ink to use any more
than that. To do that, you need an aftermarket RIP which is -very-
expensive. Thousands of dollars.

> > That would be good! A tiny bit of black carries a long, long way... I
> > make my cleaning cartridges by injecting my solution into old
> > cartridges, usually the old empty dry ones that I got with the
> > printer. This way I can see progress in the nozzle checks. Even
> > seemingly empty cartridges when mixed with the solution will yeild
> > perfectly useable prints. Not photo prints, for sure, but more than
> > enough for printing receipts and websites.
> >
> > So maybe mostly yellow with a small amount of black in the black, and
> > the correct colors in the rest. If the black is a little yellow-grey
> > on the component legend, that won't really matter.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> 
> 
> Yes, that seems good, and we know black is not really harming the
print  
> since the original success was done with loads of black.
> Only drawback is more money to invest in ink. Would there be any
point in  
> using the magenta at all if there is black in the mixture?

Why pick on magenta? It was cyan that Volkan said got printed into
black on some settings, and cyan that was worst as etch resist.

If you don't want any other colors, just use the yellow-black in all
heads, run from one bulk ink bottle.

Steve Greenfield

>You are also dealing with the complication of the printer driver.

I would do the following;

1. Get an empty "spongeless" ink cartridge for each color.
2. Get a few extra black chips.
3. Zap all cartridges to full if necessary.
4. Place the ink mix or whatever in a black chipped cartridge and 
install.
5. Install the rest of the empty cartridges.
6. Choose the transparency setting if exists.
7. Choose black ink only and the highest resolution allowed for the 
black ink/transparency setting.
8. Test.

Typically, the transparency setting uses the least amount of ink, 
allows black ink only at resolutions beyond draft and does not 
require the use of other colours for edge smoothing.

Drivers for the high end Epsons also have color density control 
(amount of ink used) and drying time control. Such a printer would be 
ideal.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

On Tuesday 18 April 2006 10:02, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:41:19 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> > Well, TANSTAAFL! But seriously, if off-the-shelf inks won't work then
> >
> > dabble a bit in some homebrew ink chemistry. The "no sponge" type empty
> >
> > ink cartridges would be ideal for ink experiments. You can wash them
> >
> > out and start again.
>
> If only it was that easy!
>
> The cartridge may be easy to wash out, but once you got something "bad"
> into the printhead you can toss the printer.
>
> ST
>

Not a big deal if you are trying printers with the printhead integrated in the 
cartridge (HP, Lexmark...)

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:19:22 +0200, Christopher Hart  
<tech_guru@...> wrote:

>
>
> Not a big deal if you are trying printers with the printhead integrated  
> in the
>
> cartridge (HP, Lexmark...)


If you are doing that you are sevely limiting your chances of anything  
working because those thermal inkjets are much more picky with the ink.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Hart <tech_guru@...>
wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 18 April 2006 10:02, Stefan Trethan wrote:
...
> > The cartridge may be easy to wash out, but once you got something
"bad"
> > into the printhead you can toss the printer.
> 
> Not a big deal if you are trying printers with the printhead
integrated in the 
> cartridge (HP, Lexmark...)

Sigh... the MIS ink being tested only works in Epson piezo heads. HP,
Lexmark, Canon, etc. all use bubblejet heads.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:30:50 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> 
>
> Sure it is. He has found out that "black" isn't really "black" only 
> > but a  
> > color mixture, so he has done a test of the different colors "by 
> > hand",  
> which is great. I really don't understand what you mean at all. I 
> > don't  
> see the color thing as a hindrance to using this ink at all. IMO it 
> > is the  
> best bet for inkjet printing right now, and it is known working, and 
> > it is  
> relatively cheap and easy to get - i have no desire at all to try  
> something else.
> 
> ST

Are we /really/ sure this is what is happening? Mixing colors to get 
black is not common these days, it used to happen back when printers 
took either black or color cartridges but not both at the same time. 
This would never print anything that looked remotely like black, it 
was more of a sludge green or grey color. Nowadays the only time that 
colors are usually mixed with the black is when you print greyscale, 
which is why most printers cannot print a 'neutral' grey because one 
color always tends to overpower the tint. If you print an all-black 
pattern, whether it's in draft or text or photo mode, it should 
always use just the black ink - the color tanks may be drained 
/slightly/ in order to 'keep the printheads wet' and this will go 
into the waste tank and not onto the paper. I have heard that some 
Canons still do the mix-three to get black if the black is under a 
certain percentage of the entire page, but I'm not sure if that's true 
either. I do know that if it's in text mode it will use pigment black, 
and if it's in photo mode it will use dye, for the Canon models that 
have dual black ink tanks.

>If you print an all-black
>pattern, whether it's in draft or text or photo mode, it should
>always use just the black ink

Depends on the media chosen and the resolution. IIRC, you cannot 
choose "black ink only" with photo media at high resolutions on any 
Epson inkjet regardless of the color content to be printed....Hence, 
the printer never uses black ink only on its own with those settings 
regardless of the color content.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> 
wrote:
>
> >If you print an all-black
> >pattern, whether it's in draft or text or photo mode, it should
> >always use just the black ink
> 
> Depends on the media chosen and the resolution. IIRC, you cannot 
> choose "black ink only" with photo media at high resolutions on any 
> Epson inkjet regardless of the color content to be printed....Hence, 
> the printer never uses black ink only on its own with those settings 
> regardless of the color content.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@> wrote:
> >
>

"Black ink only" is a setting that people tend to use in order to 
conserve the color carts when the printer is set up for general use. 
If you set the printer to 'black and white' but not 'black ink only', 
it will still use the color tanks in order to reproduce images in a 
decent greyscale. If you use 'black ink only', it will force the 
printer to NEVER use the color cartridges for greyscale, instead the 
greyscale will be a dithered image created out of tiny dots of black 
ink. If the image itself is solid black, then setting black ink only 
should not have any effect on the output. For my Epson R340, it 
doesn't matter what quality setting the printer is in, if the image 
is solid black, then the printer only uses black ink. 'Black ink 
only' only has an effect on greyscale prints. It is not selectable for 
photo printing because dithered black is hardly photo quality and 
would be a waste of paper and ink. I just find it highly unlikely that 
any modern printer would try to create black out of triple colors.

>It is not selectable for
>photo printing because dithered black is hardly photo quality and
>would be a waste of paper and ink.

For the same reason it will not use black ink only when photo printing 
even if the color content to be printed is only black.

>I just find it highly unlikely that 
>any modern printer would try to create black out of triple colors.

That was Volkan's opinion. IIRC, he had used a photo media selection so 
go figure. The only way I know to get a high resolution black printout 
from an Epson inkjet using only black ink is to choose "black ink only" 
and transparency media or put blank ink in all cartridges. I'm all ears 
for other suggestions.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>

At the risk of bring those who are not interested in Injet printing
directly onto boards..

I am just about to bite the bullet on this one..

I am going to go for an Epson R220 and a Continuous Ink System.

Advantages..

a) The R220 is a CD printer so should be easier to modify to print
boards directly.
b) If the printer breaks, as it is a fairly new model, I should be
able to get a replacement quickly.
c) The printers are available cheaply without ink as there are sellers
on ebay who remove the genuine cartridges and sell them seperately.
b) The CIS system gets round the problem of chipping cartridges.
c) The CIS also allows the printing cartridges to be connected to the
same reservoir once the best ink is determined.
d) The suppliers of the CIS on eBay will supply it empty which will
save flushing out the Dye Ink.
e) If a particular cartridge gets a blocked nozzle, simply by changing
the color of the print, printing can continue.

It might take a while to get all the bits..  but I thought i would
share my logic with the group.

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> 
> Why not just mix the yellow and magenta, and fill every cartridge in
> an inkjet printer with it for PCBs? That way it doesn't matter that
> the driver will use a mix of colors for black and for the edges where
> it mixes multiple colors to get shades of grey.
> 
> Connect them all up to the same bulk ink bottle.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

>It might take a while to get all the bits..  but I thought i would
>share my logic with the group.

The CIS (aka CFS) system would be overkill and totally unnecessary 
IMO. The R220 has a transparency selection in the drivers allowing 
highres printing using black ink only for that media selection. Just 
one empty spongeless black chipped cartridge is all you need.

Empty cartrige - $5.50
Black chip     - $1.95 
Zapper         - $10.00 (or less)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> wrote:
>

Sounds good.

I'm also getting black and yellow ink, and a stylus color 600.

I plan on refilling the cartridges conventionally first, but a CFS sounds  
good for later, esp. since i can't get spongeless cartridges for this  
printer and i don't really want to mess about pulling them out all the  
time...

Looking forward to all those results which will be coming in soon...


ST

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:47:00 +0200, Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:

> At the risk of bring those who are not interested in Injet printing
>
> directly onto boards..
>
>
> I am just about to bite the bullet on this one..
>
>
> I am going to go for an Epson R220 and a Continuous Ink System.
>
>
> Advantages..
>
>
> a) The R220 is a CD printer so should be easier to modify to print
>
> boards directly.
>
> b) If the printer breaks, as it is a fairly new model, I should be
>
> able to get a replacement quickly.
>
> c) The printers are available cheaply without ink as there are sellers
>
> on ebay who remove the genuine cartridges and sell them seperately.
>
> b) The CIS system gets round the problem of chipping cartridges.
>
> c) The CIS also allows the printing cartridges to be connected to the
>
> same reservoir once the best ink is determined.
>
> d) The suppliers of the CIS on eBay will supply it empty which will
>
> save flushing out the Dye Ink.
>
> e) If a particular cartridge gets a blocked nozzle, simply by changing
>
> the color of the print, printing can continue.
>
>
> It might take a while to get all the bits..  but I thought i would
>
> share my logic with the group.
>
>
> Chris

Same setup as I am going towards here, but using a photo 900p cd printer.


Isnt a spongeless cartridge a cartridge with the sponge removed, or
would it not be that simple.

> printer and i don't really want to mess about pulling them out all the
> time...
>
--



Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas  -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford       -

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez (lez.briddon@) wrote:
>
> Same setup as I am going towards here, but using a photo 900p cd 
> printer.
> 
> 
> Isnt a spongeless cartridge a cartridge with the sponge removed, or
> would it not be that simple.
> 

Inkjet cartridges have a sponge in order to prevent the ink from 
draining too rapidly into the print head, thus leaking. They also, 
however, take up a huge amount of space that ink could otherwise use. 
And if you keep refilling a cartridge, the sponge can eventually break 
down and wind up clogging the printer.

The first line of spongeless cartridges were just carts with the 
sponge removed - and they leaked all over the place. Newer versions 
have a system of valves and vents that maintain the same kind of 
'pressure' that a sponge cartridge would have. They often have a tiny 
filter as well, since the sponge also serves as a filtering device.

>Isnt a spongeless cartridge a cartridge with the sponge removed, or
>would it not be that simple.

All you need to know about them and the tools needed to refill etc;

http://www.inksupply.com/spongless_carts.cfm

Their zapper is overpriced IMO.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>

Hi chris,

Thanks for playing "sherlock" to my "Mycroft".

Keep us posted on the R220 results.

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> 
wrote:
>
> At the risk of bring those who are not interested in Injet printing
> directly onto boards..
> 
> I am just about to bite the bullet on this one..
> 
> I am going to go for an Epson R220 and a Continuous Ink System.
> 
> Advantages..
> 
> a) The R220 is a CD printer so should be easier to modify to print
> boards directly.
> b) If the printer breaks, as it is a fairly new model, I should be
> able to get a replacement quickly.
> c) The printers are available cheaply without ink as there are 
sellers
> on ebay who remove the genuine cartridges and sell them seperately.
> b) The CIS system gets round the problem of chipping cartridges.
> c) The CIS also allows the printing cartridges to be connected to 
the
> same reservoir once the best ink is determined.
> d) The suppliers of the CIS on eBay will supply it empty which will
> save flushing out the Dye Ink.
> e) If a particular cartridge gets a blocked nozzle, simply by 
changing

> the color of the print, printing can continue.
> 
> It might take a while to get all the bits..  but I thought i would
> share my logic with the group.
> 
> Chris
>