Homebrew PCBs

I have the epson R1800 which uses "Ultra Chrome" Ink
and has the CD tray - straight thru.

Anyone have info on the likelyness of this
printer working?

kc7zwg@...

On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:41:38 +0200, Martin Johnson <kc7zwg@...>  
wrote:

> I have the epson R1800 which uses "Ultra Chrome" Ink
>
> and has the CD tray - straight thru.
>
>
> Anyone have info on the likelyness of this
>
> printer working?
>
>
> kc7zwg@...


The ink Volkan uses sells as:

"MISPRO ink is ideal for use on any of the Epson printers that use either  
the Dura-Bright\u2122 or the UltraChrome Epson inks"

So if the original ink does not work you can still use the ink that is  
known to work.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Johnson" <kc7zwg@...> 
wrote:
>
> I have the epson R1800 which uses "Ultra Chrome" Ink
> and has the CD tray - straight thru.
> 
> Anyone have info on the likelyness of this
> printer working?
> 
> kc7zwg@...

Ultrachrome isn't the same as Durabrite, it's higher quality, slower 
drying, and much pickier about the surface you use to print on. Seeing 
as how this printer is about $600 or more, you might want to be a bit 
wary about using refill inks with it, unless you plan to dedicate it 
to PCB printing. I would wait and see if people's tests with other 
printers and inks work, before putting nonstandard ink in it. This 
printer does have a full straight-through path, not just for the CD 
tray (I'm unsure what thickness it will accept) so it might be a very 
good buy for people planning on making a business out of PCB design.

cheaper 100% flat path is photo 900p, very cheap on ebay.
I think the 925 is the same.

Problem I have is finding a uk ink supplier that will work.



On 17/04/06, fenrir_co <fenrir@...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Johnson" <kc7zwg@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have the epson R1800 which uses "Ultra Chrome" Ink
> > and has the CD tray - straight thru.
> >
> > Anyone have info on the likelyness of this
> > printer working?
> >
> > kc7zwg@...
>
> Ultrachrome isn't the same as Durabrite, it's higher quality, slower
> drying, and much pickier about the surface you use to print on. Seeing
> as how this printer is about $600 or more, you might want to be a bit
> wary about using refill inks with it, unless you plan to dedicate it
> to PCB printing. I would wait and see if people's tests with other
> printers and inks work, before putting nonstandard ink in it. This
> printer does have a full straight-through path, not just for the CD
> tray (I'm unsure what thickness it will accept) so it might be a very
> good buy for people planning on making a business out of PCB design.
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--



Lez

- looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas  -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford       -

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:11:50 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> cheaper 100% flat path is photo 900p, very cheap on ebay.
>
> I think the 925 is the same.
>
>
> Problem I have is finding a uk ink supplier that will work.


Why not order from inksupply.com? international shipping is very  
reasonable.



I checked out the old epson stylus i had but the head is badly clogged, i  
think i will have to get another printer.

I'm curious what might be the best model to get.
A straight paper path is only a secondary requirement, i'm sure any  
printer can be modified in that way.

What i would like is one where i can take the case off without the thing  
coming apart. They used to be constructed on a sheetmetal frame that held  
all the stuff together, but recently i have seen laser printers which used  
the plastic case for structure, any ideas if this is the same with inkjet  
printers?


I guess i should look that it originally uses durabright inks so the  
"known good" refill will surely work?

Also, are there any models suitable that do _not_ have a chip on the  
cartridge, or alternatively something like a PC software to easily reset  
the thing?
Because, if there is a chip and it starts acting up i could easily get  
angry enough to throw the printer out the window, which would maybe not be  
so good for the lifespan of it...

Well, any suggestions as to which printers might be a good choice are  
welcome. Also, if ther are any pages listing which printers have chips on  
the cartridge it would be nice to know.


Steve, if you could briefly describe if/how it is possible to make such a  
hose feed system that would be grand. I would only make one for black.  
Does one use the cartridges in some way or is the hose attached to the  
head directly?

thanks


ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet ?


> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:11:50 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> 
> wrote:
>
>> cheaper 100% flat path is photo 900p, very cheap on ebay.
>>
>> I think the 925 is the same.
>>
>>
>> Problem I have is finding a uk ink supplier that will work.
>
>
> Why not order from inksupply.com? international shipping is very
> reasonable.
>
>
>
> I checked out the old epson stylus i had but the head is badly clogged, i
> think i will have to get another printer.

That's a common problem with Epson printers if they aren't used for some 
time. I try to print something on mine every few days, which stops clogging. 
Running a clean cycle, switching it off, and leaving it for a day helps, 
I've found.

Leon

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:10:12 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> That's a common problem with Epson printers if they aren't used for some
>
> time. I try to print something on mine every few days, which stops  
> clogging.
>
> Running a clean cycle, switching it off, and leaving it for a day helps,
>
> I've found.
>
>
> Leon


There's a programm on inksupply.com that prints a page every day  
automatically...

All that nonsense and messing about is why i haven't used inkjet for years  
in favour of laser printers.
But if it prints PCBs i'm willing to suffer it...

ST

> Because, if there is a chip and it starts acting up i could easily get
> angry enough to throw the printer out the window, which would maybe not be

chips are not an issue, I bought a 'zapper' thats easy to use, just
clip the cartridge into it, press the button, light flashes 5 times
and the chip is reset to 'full'.

Simple procedure before refilling etc.

gadget cost about $10

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:31:20 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> chips are not an issue, I bought a 'zapper' thats easy to use, just
>
> clip the cartridge into it, press the button, light flashes 5 times
>
> and the chip is reset to 'full'.
>
>
> Simple procedure before refilling etc.
>
>
> gadget cost about $10


I have found a software to modify the ink counter, see a list of  
compatible printers here:
<http://www.ssclg.com/epsons.shtml>
I would prefer that over a resetter.

When looking around i found some pages saying that the EU forbade the  
printer manufacturers to use chips here, i'm not sure if this is true or  
not, but it would be something good for once.

Anyway, i have been looking around, and i'm wondering if i need a  
durabright or ultrachrome ink printer, or if any epson would work.
The mispro page says:

MISPRO ink is ideal for use on any of the Epson printers that use either  
the Dura-Bright\u2122 or the UltraChrome Epson inks. This includes the C80,  
C82, C64, C84, C66, C86, 2100, 2200, 4000, 7600, 9600 and 10600. The  
inksets come in 8 colors, 3 blacks (matte, photo, light) and 5 colors  
(CMYLcLm) or 4 color inksets (CMYMK).


Use MIS PRO Ink for Non Ultrachrome Printers -
We are recommending that the MIS PRO ink be used instead of the MIS GP  
inks for the non-Ultrachrome printers. The MIS PRO is superior on glossy  
and semi gloss papers. The GP ink had some bronzing and flat areas and the  
MIS PRO does not. GP was the best we had at the time. Both inks require a  
profile for use on non-Ultrachrome printers. We are working on profiles  
for the 1160, 1280, 3000, 7000, 7500, 9000, 9500, R200 and R300 printers.


Now what does that mean? i can use any printer made by epson? or not? i  
don't care about color profiles, i'm not going to use color.

The thing is the greater the range of possible printers the better,  
because then it will be easier to find one at ebay that doesn't have a  
clogged up head or some such problem.

Thanks!

ST

Well, I've bought an Epson C84 and a CX3810 so I'll be able to report on
those 2 eventually.

But after reading that paragraph, we are mostly interested in MISPRO-2-MK
(universal black) ink.  So if MIS says we can use that in other printers,
we've been running after Epson for nothing (just more printers for my
collection).

I won't be able to buy MIS ink before the 1st week of May.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 10:49
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet ?


On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:31:20 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> chips are not an issue, I bought a 'zapper' thats easy to use, just
>
> clip the cartridge into it, press the button, light flashes 5 times
>
> and the chip is reset to 'full'.
>
>
> Simple procedure before refilling etc.
>
>
> gadget cost about $10


I have found a software to modify the ink counter, see a list of  
compatible printers here:
<http://www.ssclg.com/epsons.shtml>
I would prefer that over a resetter.

When looking around i found some pages saying that the EU forbade the  
printer manufacturers to use chips here, i'm not sure if this is true or  
not, but it would be something good for once.

Anyway, i have been looking around, and i'm wondering if i need a  
durabright or ultrachrome ink printer, or if any epson would work. The
mispro page says:

MISPRO ink is ideal for use on any of the Epson printers that use either  
the Dura-Bright™ or the UltraChrome Epson inks. This includes the C80,  
C82, C64, C84, C66, C86, 2100, 2200, 4000, 7600, 9600 and 10600. The  
inksets come in 8 colors, 3 blacks (matte, photo, light) and 5 colors  
(CMYLcLm) or 4 color inksets (CMYMK).


Use MIS PRO Ink for Non Ultrachrome Printers -
We are recommending that the MIS PRO ink be used instead of the MIS GP  
inks for the non-Ultrachrome printers. The MIS PRO is superior on glossy  
and semi gloss papers. The GP ink had some bronzing and flat areas and the  
MIS PRO does not. GP was the best we had at the time. Both inks require a  
profile for use on non-Ultrachrome printers. We are working on profiles  
for the 1160, 1280, 3000, 7000, 7500, 9000, 9500, R200 and R300 printers.


Now what does that mean? i can use any printer made by epson? or not? i  
don't care about color profiles, i'm not going to use color.

The thing is the greater the range of possible printers the better,  
because then it will be easier to find one at ebay that doesn't have a  
clogged up head or some such problem.

Thanks!

ST


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:01:08 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> So if MIS says we can use that in other printers,
>
> we've been running after Epson for nothing (just more printers for my
>
> collection).


Well, i wouldn't say that.
We know we need a piezo printer, not a thermal inkjet, so that doesn't  
leave many.

Also, one comes to the paragraph after clicking for epson compatible inks,  
so i believe it means other epsons, not other printers in general.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> 
> Anyway, i have been looking around, and i'm wondering if i need a  
> durabright or ultrachrome ink printer, or if any epson would work.
> The mispro page says:
> 
> MISPRO ink is ideal for use on any of the Epson printers that use 
>either  
> the Dura-Bright™ or the UltraChrome Epson inks. This includes the 
>C80,  
> C82, C64, C84, C66, C86, 2100, 2200, 4000, 7600, 9600 and 10600. The 
 
> inksets come in 8 colors, 3 blacks (matte, photo, light) and 5 
>colors  
> (CMYLcLm) or 4 color inksets (CMYMK).
> 
> 
> Use MIS PRO Ink for Non Ultrachrome Printers -
> We are recommending that the MIS PRO ink be used instead of the MIS 
>GP  
> inks for the non-Ultrachrome printers. The MIS PRO is superior on 
> glossy  
> and semi gloss papers. The GP ink had some bronzing and flat areas 
> and the  
> MIS PRO does not. GP was the best we had at the time. Both inks 
> require a  
> profile for use on non-Ultrachrome printers. We are working on 
> profiles  
> for the 1160, 1280, 3000, 7000, 7500, 9000, 9500, R200 and R300 
> printers.
> 
> 
> Now what does that mean? i can use any printer made by epson? or 
> not? i  
> don't care about color profiles, i'm not going to use color.
> 
> The thing is the greater the range of possible printers the better,  
> because then it will be easier to find one at ebay that doesn't have 
>a  
> clogged up head or some such problem.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ST

Yes, basically the idea is that you can refill any Epson printer with 
these inks. I'm surprised that this ink worked, as MIS does not sell 
any 'durabrite equivalent', their pigment refill inks are more like 
Ultrachrome inks, which are completely different and don't have the 
waterproof and quick-dry features that Durabrite has, because they're 
designed for fine art printing. Looking back through some of the data 
on comp.periphs.printers I see that the Ultrachrome inks and refill 
equivalent are 'sticky', which explains why it wouldn't bead up like 
regular dye ink.

They will work on any printer (which is why I keep suggesting to try 
real Durabrite ink on an R200 with the CD printing slot because 
Durabrite ink dries much faster and will be less likely to smear) 
because the heads are all nearly the same, with the more expensive 
ones (over $500) having finer print nozzles for higher resolution - 
but that should not pose a problem by refilling with these inks since 
they're designed for it. Many people buy an R200 6-color dye printer 
and refill them with pigment inks which gives you a photo quality 
pigment printer for $550 less than the R1800. You can also refill them 
with the greyscale inks in order to print perfect black and white 
photos (basic color inksets, even photo ones, have trouble with shades 
of grey).

Hi,
For those of you who wish to build their own resetter
here is a useful web side 
http://www.eddiem.com/photo/printer/chipreset/resetchip.html
He really did a good job. I took the linux version of
the program and modify it for cygwin also change
timing. SSC Service Utility were not supporting T60x
series cartridges as far as I know. While erasing
cartridges never erase after first 2 bytes ( ink
counters) chip can destroy itself. 

Volkan

Ok, that's good news then!

i don't really want even faster drying ink since i can already see myself  
getting in a very bad mood about clogged heads in the future. The MISPRO  
ink works, as we know from volkan, so that's what i aim for.

Just to make sure, if you say any Epson printer that includes the older  
models?

ST


On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:29:48 +0200, fenrir_co <fenrir@...>  
wrote:

> Yes, basically the idea is that you can refill any Epson printer with
>
> these inks. I'm surprised that this ink worked, as MIS does not sell
>
> any 'durabrite equivalent', their pigment refill inks are more like
>
> Ultrachrome inks, which are completely different and don't have the
>
> waterproof and quick-dry features that Durabrite has, because they're
>
> designed for fine art printing. Looking back through some of the data
>
> on comp.periphs.printers I see that the Ultrachrome inks and refill
>
> equivalent are 'sticky', which explains why it wouldn't bead up like
>
> regular dye ink.
>
>
> They will work on any printer (which is why I keep suggesting to try
>
> real Durabrite ink on an R200 with the CD printing slot because
>
> Durabrite ink dries much faster and will be less likely to smear)
>
> because the heads are all nearly the same, with the more expensive
>
> ones (over $500) having finer print nozzles for higher resolution -
>
> but that should not pose a problem by refilling with these inks since
>
> they're designed for it. Many people buy an R200 6-color dye printer
>
> and refill them with pigment inks which gives you a photo quality
>
> pigment printer for $550 less than the R1800. You can also refill them
>
> with the greyscale inks in order to print perfect black and white
>
> photos (basic color inksets, even photo ones, have trouble with shades
>
> of grey).

I see many Epson Stylus C84 on ebay, and _a lot_ of them seem to have  
clogged heads.

Are those particularly bad printers, or are the clogs impossible to clear,  
or why are so many people getting rid of them so cheaply?

thanks

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


>I see many Epson Stylus C84 on ebay, and _a lot_ of them seem to have
> clogged heads.
>
> Are those particularly bad printers, or are the clogs impossible to clear,
> or why are so many people getting rid of them so cheaply?

If heads are badly clogged they have to be replaced which will cost more 
than the printer is worth, in many cases.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Leon Heller wrote:

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 6:19 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)
>
>
>  
>
>>I see many Epson Stylus C84 on ebay, and _a lot_ of them seem to have
>>clogged heads.
>>
>>Are those particularly bad printers, or are the clogs impossible to clear,
>>or why are so many people getting rid of them so cheaply?
>>    
>>
>
>If heads are badly clogged they have to be replaced which will cost more 
>than the printer is worth, in many cases.
>
>Leon 
>
>  
>


  Tossed one I got for free myself, just because of this.  Of course 
wishing I had it for the class action and ink tests now..

  Most people aren't so technically inclined as to be able to take out 
the head and put it back.  There just about has to be a solvent that 
would clean these out without too much extra work and leave it useable.  
Plus only have to get the black head working for what we need anyway, 
not much care about the other colors.

Alan

Are the heads integrated in the cartridges?

That MIS site has cleaning cartridges available, very low prices.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Leon Heller
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 13:27
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


If heads are badly clogged they have to be replaced which will cost more 
than the printer is worth, in many cases.

Leon

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:26:39 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> If heads are badly clogged they have to be replaced which will cost more
>
> than the printer is worth, in many cases.
>
>
> Leon
>


I did read up on the web, and about a year after the printer was bought  
many people only get blank pages after a year, usually after replacing the  
cartridge. Now that sounds like a clogged head, but actually there seems  
to be some problem with the vacuum hose getting disconnected (sometimes  
after getting plugged up at another spot). This would be easy to fix, but  
my fear is there might still be a serious clogging problem.

It is impossible for me to tell how many of the reports about clogged  
heads are actually clogged heads, and how many might just be the vacuum  
hose and the user not knowing that. Any thoughts on that welcome.

Anyone have a C84?

ST

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:13:17 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Are the heads integrated in the cartridges?
>
>
> That MIS site has cleaning cartridges available, very low prices.
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>


no piezo (epson) printer has the heads on the cartridges.
I doubt the function of cleaning cartridges.

I will be highly interested in hearing about the C84 you are just fetching.

thanks

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Robert Hedan" <robert.hedan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:13 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


Are the heads integrated in the cartridges?

That MIS site has cleaning cartridges available, very low prices.


No, the head is separate on Epsons. A cleaning cartridge might work, but 
I've never tried one.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:38:11 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> A cleaning cartridge might work, but
>
> I've never tried one.
>
>
> Leon


My fear is they might be a bit like cleaning tapes and CDs and stuff.  
Sellable to people who panic and run if they read the word "instructions",  
but maybe not nearly as effective as other means.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:13:17 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
>> Are the heads integrated in the cartridges?
>>
>>
>> That MIS site has cleaning cartridges available, very low prices.
>>
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> no piezo (epson) printer has the heads on the cartridges.
> I doubt the function of cleaning cartridges.

I just did a web search on the clogged jet problem and someone fixed his 
printer by putting a few drops of IPA in the ink feed hole, after rmoving 
the cartridge. He had to repeat the operation several times, but it worked 
eventually.

Leon

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:11:50 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
> 
> > cheaper 100% flat path is photo 900p, very cheap on ebay.
> >
> > I think the 925 is the same.
> >
> >
> > Problem I have is finding a uk ink supplier that will work.
> 
> 
> Why not order from inksupply.com? international shipping is very  
> reasonable.

Agreed.

> I'm curious what might be the best model to get.
> A straight paper path is only a secondary requirement, i'm sure any  
> printer can be modified in that way.

Pretty much any Epson model that does at least 720dpi.

> What i would like is one where i can take the case off without the
thing  
> coming apart. They used to be constructed on a sheetmetal frame that
held  
> all the stuff together, but recently i have seen laser printers
which used  
> the plastic case for structure, any ideas if this is the same with
inkjet  
> printers?

The mechanics of the printer, at least for all the Epsons I'm familiar
with, are self-contained in their own metal framework. The bottom
plastic shell holds the waste ink pad and provides some mechanical
stability, and may also hold the rear paper feed tray.

> I guess i should look that it originally uses durabright inks so the  
> "known good" refill will surely work?

You worry too much. Those inks originally were designed to replace
Epson dye inks, so were meant to be used in dye ink printers.

> Also, are there any models suitable that do _not_ have a chip on the  
> cartridge, or alternatively something like a PC software to easily
reset  
> the thing?
> Because, if there is a chip and it starts acting up i could easily get  
> angry enough to throw the printer out the window, which would maybe
not be  
> so good for the lifespan of it...

You can get auto-resetting chips. MIS sells them.

Older Epsons don't have chips. I think all newer Epson printers use
chips in the cartridges.

> Well, any suggestions as to which printers might be a good choice are  
> welcome. Also, if ther are any pages listing which printers have
chips on  
> the cartridge it would be nice to know.

As above, just about any Epson that does at least 720dpi.

> Steve, if you could briefly describe if/how it is possible to make
such a  
> hose feed system that would be grand. I would only make one for black.  
> Does one use the cartridges in some way or is the hose attached to the  
> head directly?

The printer will not print if it thinks it is out of any ink. However,
in chipped models resetting the chip tricks it, in non-chipped just
resetting the cartridge switch will trick it into thinking you've put
in more color.

Caveat: if you do this, then make sure you check "use black ink only"
in the printer driver.

It's pretty simple. A thin flexible hose attached to the cartridge,
run to a bottle with ink in it. Level of the ink is important: The top
level of the ink should be between the height of the bottom of the
print head and the base of the ink cartridge. You can simply place the
ink bottle on pieces of cardboard to move it up as the ink runs down.

MIS has instructions on their website to build a CIS.

Another caveat: pigment ink settles. It may settle significantly in
less than a month. So I suggest giving the external bottles a "swirl"
to gently mix them about every 2 weeks.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:01:08 +0200, Robert Hedan  
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
> 
> > So if MIS says we can use that in other printers,
> >
> > we've been running after Epson for nothing (just more printers for my
> >
> > collection).
> 
> 
> Well, i wouldn't say that.
> We know we need a piezo printer, not a thermal inkjet, so that doesn't  
> leave many.

Among desktop printers, only Epson uses piezo heads. Stefan is
correct, the MIS page is only talking about Epson printers.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:13:17 +0200, Robert Hedan  
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
> 
> > Are the heads integrated in the cartridges?
> >
> > That MIS site has cleaning cartridges available, very low prices.
> 
> no piezo (epson) printer has the heads on the cartridges.
> I doubt the function of cleaning cartridges.
> 

The C8x series Epson printers seem to be getting a lot of complaints
about clogging. This may have more to do with Durabrite inks than the
printer itself, as I see a fair number of people on the Heat Transfers
list (a commercial (mostly) Tshirt imprinters list) are using C8x
series with MIS and other pigmented inks with better luck.

The later Durabrite inks have specifically been formulated to work on
glossy paper. If you have a C80, 82, 84, 86, 88, the later the model
the better it works on glossy paper. The C80 not at all. However,
whatever they are doing to Durabrite seems to make it more likely to clog.

As for cleaning cartridges not working, make your own and you'll
change your mind. Keep in mind, cleaning cartridges won't just fix a
badly clogged printer any more than just buying carb cleaner will
magically restore your car to working order.

Patience is the key. Underhead cleaning, cleaning the parking station,
etc.
http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/PrintHeadCleaning/

Steve Greenfield

>Caveat: if you do this, then make sure you check "use black ink only"
>in the printer driver.

You may not want to do this with some models. It limits the resolution 
to draft or something of the sort. It shouldn't be necessary either if 
the CAD output is set to black.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

Nope, cartridges are in a large 'chariot', like my Canon MP730;  these are
dummy cartridges.  I don't see any EEPROMs on this so far, and I've totally
stripped it.  Pics up in my album:
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/photos

I can confirm that the C84 is a straight-through path, that much is good.  I
still have to remove the pizza-wheels before I can get any PCB safely
through there.

I'm searching for drivers right now.

Supper's ready, wife beckons!

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 14:33
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


no piezo (epson) printer has the heads on the cartridges.
I doubt the function of cleaning cartridges.

I will be highly interested in hearing about the C84 you are just fetching.

thanks

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> Nope, cartridges are in a large 'chariot', like my Canon MP730; 
these are
> dummy cartridges.  I don't see any EEPROMs on this so far, and I've
totally
> stripped it.  Pics up in my album:

Take a cartridge out and look at it: the EEPROM is on the side of the
cartridge facing into the printer.

> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/photos
> 
> I can confirm that the C84 is a straight-through path, that much is
good.  I
> still have to remove the pizza-wheels before I can get any PCB safely
> through there.
> 
> I'm searching for drivers right now.

Don't allow Windows to use it's default drivers for it. They are
extremely limited.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >Caveat: if you do this, then make sure you check "use black ink only"
> >in the printer driver.
> 
> You may not want to do this with some models. It limits the resolution 
> to draft or something of the sort. It shouldn't be necessary either if 
> the CAD output is set to black.

The printer driver may decide to use a mix of color and black ink for
the edges. That is how it gets improved grey tones. But if you let it
run out of color (as the post I was replying to) then you may end up
with funky trace edges.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you from putting the same black
ink in all cartridges. You can even feed it from the same bottle if
you are putting a CIS on it.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, that's good news then!
> 
> i don't really want even faster drying ink since i can already see 
> myself  
> getting in a very bad mood about clogged heads in the future. The 
> MISPRO  
> ink works, as we know from volkan, so that's what i aim for.
> 
> Just to make sure, if you say any Epson printer that includes the 
> older  
> models?
> 
> ST

I'm not sure when Epson started using the type of piezo heads that are 
in the current line of printers. I believe that they would be usable 
in any printer that has a letter before the model number, i.e. C84, 
R200, etc. You would have to ask MIS directly to find out if it will 
go through older printers, though I suspect it will work on any 
printer with a piezo head - as older printers will have /bigger/ print 
nozzles than newer ones have.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> I see many Epson Stylus C84 on ebay, and _a lot_ of them seem to 
> have  
> clogged heads.
> 
> Are those particularly bad printers, or are the clogs impossible to 
> clear,  
> or why are so many people getting rid of them so cheaply?
> 
> thanks
> 
> ST

They are bad printers in the sense that ever since Epson came out with 
the Durabrite inks their printers have been infamous for clogging up 
nearly instantly (I've seen reports of printers breaking down in two 
days). If you buy one, unclog it, and switch to the MIS Pro ink, I 
suspect that there will be less chance of clogging than with the Epson 
OEM Durabrite ink.

If you search the newsgroup comp.periphs.printers, try to locate and 
contact Arthur Entlich, who has written a cleaning manual to help try 
to unclog jammed Epson printers.

So based on what you are saying, then the Stylus 850 would not be good 
for this?  The reason I ask is that I have one that I could butcher 
and use for this, but if it won't work, my granddaughter will get it 
for her computer.




> I'm not sure when Epson started using the type of piezo heads that 
are 
> in the current line of printers. I believe that they would be usable 
> in any printer that has a letter before the model number, i.e. C84, 
> R200, etc. You would have to ask MIS directly to find out if it will 
> go through older printers, though I suspect it will work on any 
> printer with a piezo head - as older printers will have /bigger/ 
print 
> nozzles than newer ones have.
>

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:29:31 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Nope, cartridges are in a large 'chariot', like my Canon MP730;  these  
> are
>
> dummy cartridges.  I don't see any EEPROMs on this so far, and I've  
> totally

>> no piezo (epson) printer has the heads on the cartridges.
>>
>> I doubt the function of cleaning cartridges.

Sorry i was unclear there.
I was replying to something like "has this printer the heads on the  
cartridges".
So i was meaning it _doesn't_ have them on the cartridges of course, "No  
epson has that" (as in none).

The chip will be on the bottom of the carts, but do not pull them  
unnecessarily you might get air into the system.

Does this work as-is? Would be great to know if the durabright ink will  
work also.

ST

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:49:00 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>
> Patience is the key. Underhead cleaning, cleaning the parking station,
>
> etc.
>
> http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/PrintHeadCleaning/
>
>
> Steve Greenfield
>


Ok, that is great, but of course i have questions ;-)

You write:

1 part nonsudsing household ammonia (clear, no perfumes)
4 parts 50% Isopropyl Alcohol (aka Isopropanol) (clear, no perfumes)
5 parts filtered or distilled water (-not- purified)

for a cleaning solution.
How many % is this ammonia?
Is ethanol also suitable or only IPA?

Is this solution suitable as a repacement for windex (can't find), i mean  
for cleaning the parking pad and stuff?


Also, i will have to find those lint-free window wipes. That will be quite  
hard.

thanks!

ST

Confirmed, and the worse thing is that I had seen the circuits, my brain
just hadn't registered them as such.  The chip must be on the inside.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Steve
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 17:38
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


Take a cartridge out and look at it: the EEPROM is on the side of the
cartridge facing into the printer.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> So based on what you are saying, then the Stylus 850 would not be 
> good 
> for this?  The reason I ask is that I have one that I could butcher 
> and use for this, but if it won't work, my granddaughter will get it 
> for her computer.

I don't know about the older models like that. You would have to ask 
MIS directly. I suspect it will probably work.

Well, this sucks.

The cartridges were 'supposed' to be 95% full, apparently not.  The black is
totally empty, some blue comes out, and that's about it.  Barely 50% of the
characters come out on the test page.

I'm thinking that the printer is most likely totally clogged at this point,
most likely sitting in a closet.

Gonna go check out that link from Steve and see what I can do.  I have
rubbing alcohol, that must be 70% IPA and I have 99% IPA,  I might have
Windex, but I do know my wife has this 'environmentally friendly' Windex
substitute, that might be less likely to melt plastics.

Crap, wasn't planning on overhauling this thing already.

Robert
:(

Do not despair, check the vacuum tubing first of all, if it is well seated  
and not clogged.

About the 'environmentally friendly' Windex, don't do it, it might not  
contain ammonia but instead some other sh** you don't want. some plastics  
only get "melted" as you put it by stuff like acetone and laquer thinner,  
windex is known to be safe.

If the vacuum is fine do the head cleaning according to steve's  
instructions.

Everything you do will help me greatly because this model is a likely  
candidate for me. If you are not able to clean the head i would not want  
to risk the same problem, so thanks for giving it your best effort.

ST


On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 01:12:47 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Well, this sucks.
>
>
> The cartridges were 'supposed' to be 95% full, apparently not.  The  
> black is
>
> totally empty, some blue comes out, and that's about it.  Barely 50% of  
> the
>
> characters come out on the test page.
>
>
> I'm thinking that the printer is most likely totally clogged at this  
> point,
>
> most likely sitting in a closet.
>
>
> Gonna go check out that link from Steve and see what I can do.  I have
>
> rubbing alcohol, that must be 70% IPA and I have 99% IPA,  I might have
>
> Windex, but I do know my wife has this 'environmentally friendly' Windex
>
> substitute, that might be less likely to melt plastics.
>
>
> Crap, wasn't planning on overhauling this thing already.
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>

Ok, I've found only one thing that could remotely look like a vacuum tube.
Night is falling and it's difficult to light the guts of a printer properly,
so I've used what I could and left the images in large format for better
clarity.

http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20021%20front.jpg
This is from the front of the printer, looking where the chariot normally
resides.  I powered on the printer and shut it off while the chariot was
taking a stroll to the left.

http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20013%20middle.jpg
That is taken from the back side of the printer.

http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20014%20rear.jpg
And that one follows the tube towards the rear of the printer.  It goes
under that white felt pad.

At this juncture (<--- I always wanted to use that word) I'm scared to tug
at that tube.  It appears to be snug in its position.  I don't know how to
easily get clear access to that cylinder where it is attached at the front,
and I'm scared to mess up that rear pad as well.

Resuming trying to clean the head, I have exactly the types of wipes
mentionned on that site...

Robert
:(







-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 19:27
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


Do not despair, check the vacuum tubing first of all, if it is well seated  
and not clogged.

...

Everything you do will help me greatly because this model is a likely  
candidate for me. If you are not able to clean the head i would not want  
to risk the same problem, so thanks for giving it your best effort.

ST

Update on the situation:

The black cartridge registers as totally empty, both using the Epson utility
and that Russian SSC utility.

No more black is getting on the paper, BUT, the cartidge continues to 'wet'
that plastic injector at the bottom of the chariot.  Everytime I remove the
cartridge, that stub is very wet, much more so than blue, and blue prints
nicely.

So I know I have black ink, this is much more than a matter of cleaning the
print heads from the bottom.  I believe I should clean them more
'aggressively' by the top.  It's not a matter of ink having a hard time
getting out, it's a matter of ink not getting in at all.  This is where I
need advice from experienced players.

1. Can I just dap a drop of IPA 99% onto that stub?

2. How is that ink fed into that stub, gravity?

3. Can I use light air spray to increase penetration?

I looked around at removing that chariot for a complete soak, and that
doesn't look like an option.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Robert Hedan
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 19:57
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


Ok, I've found only one thing that could remotely look like a vacuum tube.
Night is falling and it's difficult to light the guts of a printer properly,
so I've used what I could and left the images in large format for better
clarity.

http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20021%20front.jpg
This is from the front of the printer, looking where the chariot normally
resides.  I powered on the printer and shut it off while the chariot was
taking a stroll to the left.

http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20013%20middle.jpg
That is taken from the back side of the printer.

http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20014%20rear.jpg
And that one follows the tube towards the rear of the printer.  It goes
under that white felt pad.

At this juncture (<--- I always wanted to use that word) I'm scared to tug
at that tube.  It appears to be snug in its position.  I don't know how to
easily get clear access to that cylinder where it is attached at the front,
and I'm scared to mess up that rear pad as well.

Resuming trying to clean the head, I have exactly the types of wipes
mentionned on that site...

Robert
:(







-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan Envoyé : avril 17 2006 19:27 À :
Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus
C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


Do not despair, check the vacuum tubing first of all, if it is well seated  
and not clogged.

...

Everything you do will help me greatly because this model is a likely  
candidate for me. If you are not able to clean the head i would not want  
to risk the same problem, so thanks for giving it your best effort.

ST




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links

I think I have it, the darn cartridges are empty, incredible.  :(

I started cleaning the insides of the black/yellow/red cartridges with LCD
cleaning wipes (MG Chemicals #8242-T).  The stubs stopped getting wet rather
quickly, and the wipes started coming out the cartridge holes nice and
clean.

For some reason, both Epson and SSC utilities think there is red and yellow
ink even if the cartridges are bone dry.  The ink keeps coming out the blue
cartridge, that one continues to work well, but the printer can't work just
in blue, so that's useless.

Since I'm not able to order on credit card until my daughter empties her
card (that might take a year), I'm going to buy replacement cartridges from
Staples and start fresh.  Not much else I can do at this point, at least I'm
guaranteed 'some' results if I buy original replacements (start with black
for now, I guess).   I'd like to get the heads wet as quickly as possible
before whatever deposit is in there hardens even more.

Robert
:(



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Robert Hedan
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 20:56
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


Update on the situation:

The black cartridge registers as totally empty, both using the Epson utility
and that Russian SSC utility.

No more black is getting on the paper, BUT, the cartidge continues to 'wet'
that plastic injector at the bottom of the chariot.  Everytime I remove the
cartridge, that stub is very wet, much more so than blue, and blue prints
nicely.

So I know I have black ink, this is much more than a matter of cleaning the
print heads from the bottom.  I believe I should clean them more
'aggressively' by the top.  It's not a matter of ink having a hard time
getting out, it's a matter of ink not getting in at all.  This is where I
need advice from experienced players.

1. Can I just dap a drop of IPA 99% onto that stub?

2. How is that ink fed into that stub, gravity?

3. Can I use light air spray to increase penetration?

I looked around at removing that chariot for a complete soak, and that
doesn't look like an option.

Robert
:)

Robert Hedan wrote:

>I think I have it, the darn cartridges are empty, incredible.  :(
>
>  
>

  If you don't care about the printer too much for normal use, you might 
want to try throwing that blue ink into the black cart, assuming of 
course you can reset it.  Even if you do it should only take cleaning to 
get rid of the blue later..

Alan

Hi All,
A few minutes ago I discovered that if you select
ultra  premium glossy photo paper to print, although
your image is completely dark black printer also uses
cyan color. Before doing any ink order please wait my
experiment results I will start to do it now, I think
in a hour I could be able to post the results. Just
for black and combination with cyan. 
:(
VoVolkan

V, you have 12 hours and not a minute more...

Robert
:D



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Volkan Sahin
Envoyé : avril 17 2006 22:33
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (URGENT
INFO...........URGENT INFO)


Hi All,
... Before doing any ink order please wait my experiment results I will
start to do it now... 
:(
VoVolkan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> So based on what you are saying, then the Stylus 850 would not be good 
> for this?  The reason I ask is that I have one that I could butcher 
> and use for this, but if it won't work, my granddaughter will get it 
> for her computer.
> 

I'll say it again... any Epson 720dpi or better. I have personally run
pigmented ink in models as old as the Epson Stylus 600.

I don't think you can find an Epson that isn't piezo. I'm not sure
they ever made any other kind, and if they did I don't think a Windows
driver would exist for it.

Steve Greenfield

Bad news neither black alone or cyan alone is etch
resistant. But color combination I mean if you print
black color, choose Ultra Premium Photo Paper on
printer and if you dry (burn) it well then becomes
etch resistant. I will upload my printer settings as a
pdf file under files/Epson_inkjet_Volkan folder.
More tests are required but I have no longer thin PCB
material in stock. If you plan to order inks please
order all colors for testing purposes. 
Volkan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> Bad news neither black alone or cyan alone is etch
> resistant. But color combination I mean if you print
> black color, choose Ultra Premium Photo Paper on
> printer and if you dry (burn) it well then becomes
> etch resistant. I will upload my printer settings as a
> pdf file under files/Epson_inkjet_Volkan folder.
> More tests are required but I have no longer thin PCB
> material in stock. If you plan to order inks please
> order all colors for testing purposes. 
> Volkan
>

I have been watching the posts with interest. The ink from MIS that I 
would choose to try is the Eboni or Photo Blacks 

As their site says:

Note 2: A hybrid Universal Black (MK) is available for those who do 
not want to change from Matte Black to Photo black when changing from 
matte paper to glossy paper. However, the Universal Black does have 
some dye in it and is not as archival as the matte black or photo 
black inks.

That small amount of dye may be an issue, for better or worse. It 
could assist wetting the copper surface to advantage and assist 
coverage between dots but it may make the ink less etch resistant or 
require more treatment to dry the dye before etching.

Volkans statement suggests a portion of dye may be needed to have 
success or perhaps there is a chemical in one of the other colours 
that reacts to toughen the ink laid down.

Perhaps one of you , US based, would care to try the Eboni or Photo 
blacks.

Hi All,
I painted copper clad PCB with different ink colors,
it seems most etch resistant is yellow  and second is
magenta. I also applied combinations of 3 colors to
generate black and black blue. The losers are black
and blue. The combination of three colors is also etch
(Ferric Chloride) resistant. I will upload the scanned
image of the board Files > Epson_inkjet_Volkan folder
Most probably I will use magenta+yellow combination
since yellow is not so easy to see on copper.

Volkan

I forgot to say yellow and magenta are also heat
resistant it acts as a good solder resist also. In my
previous test boards, as I said, I used black color
and thought that printer will use black cartridge
which is not true.  It uses 3-colors to generate
black, that's why it was etch resistant.

Great!  THanks Steve,

While you may be saying one thing, others are saying differently, 
so, yes it is a bit confusing to us.  Sorry for all the repeated 
questions!

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> >
> > So based on what you are saying, then the Stylus 850 would not 
be good 
> > for this?  The reason I ask is that I have one that I could 
butcher 
> > and use for this, but if it won't work, my granddaughter will 
get it 
> > for her computer.
> > 
> 
> I'll say it again... any Epson 720dpi or better. I have personally 
run
> pigmented ink in models as old as the Epson Stylus 600.
> 
> I don't think you can find an Epson that isn't piezo. I'm not sure
> they ever made any other kind, and if they did I don't think a 
Windows

> driver would exist for it.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

Well, if the tube is not disconnected at any point you should check if the  
pump is working.
Either see if there is a vacuum with your finger during a cleaning cycle  
or insert some colored water and see if it is sucked away.

If a great number of nozzles fails especially after you had a cartridge  
out, i would suspect the pump.

ST

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 01:57:01 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Ok, I've found only one thing that could remotely look like a vacuum  
> tube.
>
> Night is falling and it's difficult to light the guts of a printer  
> properly,
>
> so I've used what I could and left the images in large format for better
>
> clarity.
>
>
> http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20021%20front.jpg
>
> This is from the front of the printer, looking where the chariot normally
>
> resides.  I powered on the printer and shut it off while the chariot was
>
> taking a stroll to the left.
>
>
> http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20013%20middle.jpg
>
> That is taken from the back side of the printer.
>
>
> http://www.xavierkamial.com/images/C84%20014%20rear.jpg
>
> And that one follows the tube towards the rear of the printer.  It goes
>
> under that white felt pad.
>
>
> At this juncture (<--- I always wanted to use that word) I'm scared to  
> tug
>
> at that tube.  It appears to be snug in its position.  I don't know how  
> to
>
> easily get clear access to that cylinder where it is attached at the  
> front,
>
> and I'm scared to mess up that rear pad as well.
>
>
> Resuming trying to clean the head, I have exactly the types of wipes
>
> mentionned on that site...
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:25:04 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I painted copper clad PCB with different ink colors,
>
> it seems most etch resistant is yellow  and second is
>
> magenta. I also applied combinations of 3 colors to
>
> generate black and black blue. The losers are black
>
> and blue. The combination of three colors is also etch
>
> (Ferric Chloride) resistant. I will upload the scanned
>
> image of the board Files > Epson_inkjet_Volkan folder
>
> Most probably I will use magenta+yellow combination
>
> since yellow is not so easy to see on copper.
>
>
> Volkan


Ok, so one needs a combination of inks.

Do you think it would be sufficient to print with yellow only?

I wonder if it would be better to mix colors together and use in one head,  
or if this does not work as well.

I would probably prefer to have only one tank with resist ink which i have  
to refill.



Anyway, thanks for quickly posting what you found, we almost bought black  
only...

Would you have any chance in the forseeable future to either try yourself,  
or send someone (e.g. me) a PCB painted with all the colors, and also a  
yellow/magenta mix, to try in CuCl etchant? I would paypal your expenses.  
A inkjet print would of course be best, but if you don't have any thin  
stock any more a rigid PCB hand painted would work also. If you can't /  
don't want to do this for some reason it is fine, but i wanted to at least  
ask.

I am worried that CuCl might be to agressive and i don't think i am  
prepared to go back to FeCl.

Thanks

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:49:00 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Patience is the key. Underhead cleaning, cleaning the parking station,
> >
> > etc.
> >
> > http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/PrintHeadCleaning/
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
> 
> 
> Ok, that is great, but of course i have questions ;-)

Oh, bugger.

> You write:
> 
> 1 part nonsudsing household ammonia (clear, no perfumes)
> 4 parts 50% Isopropyl Alcohol (aka Isopropanol) (clear, no perfumes)
> 5 parts filtered or distilled water (-not- purified)
> 
> for a cleaning solution.
> How many % is this ammonia?

Yikes! I'll have to go look. Nope, nothing on the bottle about
percentages. Just non-detergent household cleaning ammonia.

> Is ethanol also suitable or only IPA?

No, ethanol melts some plastic and is not the same (as you know) and
not necessarily as good a solvent for ink.

> Is this solution suitable as a repacement for windex (can't find), i
mean  
> for cleaning the parking pad and stuff?

Better, in my experience.

The reason for the mix is my experience that isopropyl will only
dissolve about 90% of the dried ink. Ammonia gets 99.9% of it.

BTW, mixing it with more ammonia does not improve it's cleaning
ability, it just makes it harder on your lungs and skin.

> Also, i will have to find those lint-free window wipes. That will be
quite  
> hard.

Good luck! I got lucky, the local Dollar Store (their actual name)
carries Coralite brand and they are perfect.

Steve Greenfield

No, that little PCB just pops right off. It's the old chip under a
blob of epoxy trick.

MIS sells replacements that are self-resetting. They run down as
normal (or the printer would detect an error condition) and you just
turn the printer off for a few minutes, and when turned on again they
are at 99%. Why 99%? Because if they reset to 100%, the printer would
decide they are new and run a cleaning cycle, wasting a lot of ink.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> Confirmed, and the worse thing is that I had seen the circuits, my brain
> just hadn't registered them as such.  The chip must be on the inside.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De

> la part de Steve

> 
> Take a cartridge out and look at it: the EEPROM is on the side of the
> cartridge facing into the printer.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:25:19 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>> How many % is this ammonia?
>
>
> Yikes! I'll have to go look. Nope, nothing on the bottle about
>
> percentages. Just non-detergent household cleaning ammonia.


Hmm, that's very bad.

I have some 7.5% ammonia, and that is seriously bad smelling.

You see, we don't use "household ammonia" here usually, just as we don't  
use bleach, or IPA as rubbing alcohol for that matter.

Substitute products are rarely in pure form, and usually sold here as a  
brand product with unknown composition.

Google says "Household ammonia is a dilute mixture of 5 to 10 percent  
ammonia gas in water", i will search around some more.
If you had a brand for the ammonia i could probably spy the percentage  
 from the msds.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> Well, this sucks.
> 
> The cartridges were 'supposed' to be 95% full, apparently not.  The
black is
> totally empty, some blue comes out, and that's about it.  Barely 50%
of the
> characters come out on the test page.

Are you assuming the black is empty because nothing prints black?
Don't assume. More likely clogged.

> I'm thinking that the printer is most likely totally clogged at this
point,
> most likely sitting in a closet.
> 
> Gonna go check out that link from Steve and see what I can do.  I have
> rubbing alcohol, that must be 70% IPA and I have 99% IPA,  I might have
> Windex, but I do know my wife has this 'environmentally friendly' Windex
> substitute, that might be less likely to melt plastics.

No!! If using Windex, it -must- be Windex with Ammonia D. What makes
you think -any- kind of Windex melts plastic?

Ammonia is the key. Ammonia chemically disassembles the dried and/or
thickened ink.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> Update on the situation:
> 
> The black cartridge registers as totally empty, both using the Epson
utility
> and that Russian SSC utility.
> 
> No more black is getting on the paper, BUT, the cartidge continues
to 'wet'
> that plastic injector at the bottom of the chariot.  Everytime I
remove the
> cartridge, that stub is very wet, much more so than blue, and blue
prints
> nicely.

That sounds like you have ink but it is not getting pulled in.

> So I know I have black ink, this is much more than a matter of
cleaning the
> print heads from the bottom.  I believe I should clean them more
> 'aggressively' by the top.  It's not a matter of ink having a hard time
> getting out, it's a matter of ink not getting in at all.  This is
where I
> need advice from experienced players.
> 
> 1. Can I just dap a drop of IPA 99% onto that stub?

Bad idea. Anyone who's tried to wash a window with 99% IPA knows it
evaporates too quickly to help much. And IPA is not that great a
solvent for inkjet ink. Use Windex with Ammonia D, or the solution I gave.

> 2. How is that ink fed into that stub, gravity?

Gravity and capillary.

> 3. Can I use light air spray to increase penetration?

Bad idea! Those heads are small and fragile. Take a 0.5ml syringe, put
4 pounds of force on it (a child can do that) and you've just put
>70psi on a head meant for a fraction of a psi column of ink.

> I looked around at removing that chariot for a complete soak, and that
> doesn't look like an option.

A -very- bad idea. That would require realignment, which requires a
DOS program from Epson that they only give to Epson factory techs.

Read my links: patience is a virtue! It takes a while for the cleaning
solution to dissolve clogged inks. No amount of pressure is going to
speed that up enough to matter. The nozzles are smaller than a hair.

BTW, your park pad station is filthy! Have you tried putting cleaning
solution in the park pads as I direct in the link I keep posting? This
softens the ink in the heads (the vapor of the ammonia and IPA will
rise into it) and helps unclog the vacuum hose.

Steve Greenfield

Hi Stefan,
I can send sample board no problem.  Give me your address but postage can take around a week from USA to Europe via USPS or if there is someone who wish to try it in USA, it will be quicker. Combining inks in a one cartridge is a good idea another important thing is the thickness of the ink. I think on printer if you select black color printing it uses combination of 3 (may be 4) colors to generate black and huge amount of ink which results  thick ink layer on copper. Because of that I wonder whether with one color similar amount of ink can still be generated or not. Sw settings need to be checked. I will try it this night on foil.    
  Volkan
   
   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> I think I have it, the darn cartridges are empty, incredible.  :(
> 
> I started cleaning the insides of the black/yellow/red cartridges
with LCD
> cleaning wipes (MG Chemicals #8242-T).  The stubs stopped getting
wet rather
> quickly, and the wipes started coming out the cartridge holes nice and
> clean.
> 
> For some reason, both Epson and SSC utilities think there is red and
yellow
> ink even if the cartridges are bone dry.  The ink keeps coming out
the blue
> cartridge, that one continues to work well, but the printer can't
work just
> in blue, so that's useless.

Epson printers do not measure actual ink. They only go by counting the
number of shots of ink, and cleaning cycles performed. Usually they
are rather conservative and may still have 1/3 of the ink left, in
fact there is a class-action suit over that.

Canon printers us an optical system to determine when the ink is
actually low.

> Since I'm not able to order on credit card until my daughter empties her
> card (that might take a year), I'm going to buy replacement
cartridges from
> Staples and start fresh.  Not much else I can do at this point, at
least I'm
> guaranteed 'some' results if I buy original replacements (start with
black
> for now, I guess).   I'd like to get the heads wet as quickly as
possible
> before whatever deposit is in there hardens even more.

Leave the empties installed!

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stefan,
> I can send sample board no problem.  Give me your address but 
postage can take around a week from USA to Europe via USPS or if 
there is someone who wish to try it in USA, it will be quicker. 
Combining inks in a one cartridge is a good idea another important 
thing is the thickness of the ink. I think on printer if you select 
black color printing it uses combination of 3 (may be 4) colors to 
generate black and huge amount of ink which results  thick ink layer 
on copper. Because of that I wonder whether with one color similar 
amount of ink can still be generated or not. Sw settings need to be 
checked. I will try it this night on foil.    

>   Volkan
>    
>    
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:55:32 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
> I can send sample board no problem.  Give me your address but postage  
> can take around a week from USA to Europe via USPS or if
> there is someone who wish to try it in USA, it will be quicker.  
> Combining inks in a one cartridge is a good idea another important
> thing is the thickness of the ink. I think on printer if you select  
> black color printing it uses combination of 3 (may be 4)
> colors to generate black and huge amount of ink which results  thick ink  
> layer on copper. Because of that I wonder whether with
> one color similar amount of ink can still be generated or not. Sw  
> settings need to be checked. I will try it this night on foil.
>
>   Volkan


Ok, thanks, that's great.
Let's give it a few days if someone in the US using CuCl comes forward  
(someone able to give a HCl molarity please).

ST

Unfortunately one of the risks online is that sometimes people are
quick to reply when they don't really have an answer. ;'/

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Great!  THanks Steve,
> 
> While you may be saying one thing, others are saying differently, 
> so, yes it is a bit confusing to us.  Sorry for all the repeated 
> questions!
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@> 
> wrote:

> > I'll say it again... any Epson 720dpi or better. I have personally 
> run
> > pigmented ink in models as old as the Epson Stylus 600.
> > 
> > I don't think you can find an Epson that isn't piezo. I'm not sure
> > they ever made any other kind, and if they did I don't think a 
> Windows
> > driver would exist for it.
> > 
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:52:41 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> That sounds like you have ink but it is not getting pulled in.
>


Hmm, thinking about that, if there is a air bubble in the printhead the  
head itself has absolutely no way to pull ink in, other than gravity and  
luck, because the piezo head will not pump air... So the only way to get  
any air out is with a working vacuum pump and a cleaning cycle, right?

Seems obvious now, but i have never thought about it like that...

I will make up your soultion and use lots of patience with the next  
printer i get. It seems like you know what you are talking about....

No luck so far with the lintfree wipes. there are some medical cellulose  
pads on ebay which are supposed to be lint free, but i have severe doubts  
they are really lint free on the level i would need. I can get cleaning  
tissues for eyeglasses, but those usually are soaked in lotsa stuff that  
is meant to make them clean well and smell good.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Well, if the tube is not disconnected at any point you should check
if the  
> pump is working.
> Either see if there is a vacuum with your finger during a cleaning
cycle  
> or insert some colored water and see if it is sucked away.

No need for colored water or rigging things so that you can run a
cleaning with the head unparked.

Just put enough (distilled) water or the cleaning solution on the park
pad sponge so it is very wet, run a cleaning cycle, and see if the
fluid is gone.

Steve Greenfield

I am using Epson CX4200 as a printer and inks are from MIS (http://www.inksupply.com).  They are refill inks and the product code is MISPRO42-SET-MK.

derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Stefan,
> I can send sample board no problem.  Give me your address but 
postage can take around a week from USA to Europe via USPS or if 
there is someone who wish to try it in USA, it will be quicker. 
Combining inks in a one cartridge is a good idea another important 
thing is the thickness of the ink. I think on printer if you select 
black color printing it uses combination of 3 (may be 4) colors to 
generate black and huge amount of ink which results  thick ink layer 
on copper. Because of that I wonder whether with one color similar 
amount of ink can still be generated or not. Sw settings need to be 
checked. I will try it this night on foil.    
>   Volkan
>    
>    
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I am using Epson CX4200 as a printer and inks 

Thanks, thought you were now using a C68 or C88, got confused by the 
post below;

=============================
Hi Chris,
    You are right the most important advantage is the accuracy. Indeed
that's why I have started. My goal is to use my cnc to drill and cut
the pcb.

If you are looking for a cheap Epson printer C68 is a good candidate
another option can be C88. Today, I did shopping and bought it. I
disassembled it and did some minor modifications which resulted a
nice printed out on 1.6 mm PCB. I need to think about a little bit
more how to fool the printer to get aligned double side printing. It
seems not so easy.
=============================


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:14:14 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
> No need for colored water or rigging things so that you can run a
>
> cleaning with the head unparked.
>
>
> Just put enough (distilled) water or the cleaning solution on the park
>
> pad sponge so it is very wet, run a cleaning cycle, and see if the
>
> fluid is gone.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield
>


I would be afraid the head might splash that away and i might no longer  
see it.

Of course, if it is still there then the problem is identified.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:52:41 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > That sounds like you have ink but it is not getting pulled in.
> >
> 
> 
> Hmm, thinking about that, if there is a air bubble in the printhead
the  
> head itself has absolutely no way to pull ink in, other than gravity
and  
> luck, because the piezo head will not pump air... So the only way to
get  
> any air out is with a working vacuum pump and a cleaning cycle, right?
> 
> Seems obvious now, but i have never thought about it like that...

Exactamundo.

To add insult to injury: every time you take that cartridge out and
put it back in, it forces an air bubble up into the cartridge. Two
ways to clear that air: Run a lot of cleaning cycles, wasting a lot of
ink, or let it sit for a day (like 8 hours or more) so that the air
bubble can rise up away from the ink spike.

This is not a problem with brand new sealed cartridges if you give
them a "shake down". Hold with the ink feed hole down, bring your arm
down and stop abruptly. This should force any air bubble that may be
behind the plastic seal over the ink outlet to rise.

Of course you do this with an already broken seal, you end up with ink
all over and you still get an air bubble.

> I will make up your soultion and use lots of patience with the next  
> printer i get. It seems like you know what you are talking about....

JOAT, MON. Like to think MOS.

> No luck so far with the lintfree wipes. there are some medical
cellulose  
> pads on ebay which are supposed to be lint free, but i have severe
doubts  
> they are really lint free on the level i would need. I can get
cleaning  
> tissues for eyeglasses, but those usually are soaked in lotsa stuff
that  
> is meant to make them clean well and smell good.

Eyeglass tissues are good, usually. Let them dry out and wet them with
the cleaning solution. Just damp, not dripping.

What you said about the percentage of ammonia sounds right. You can
skip the IPA if you wish, but you should use filtered or distilled water.

"Purified" water is just tap water that has had clorine gas added or
been passed under UV to kill junk in it, but still has all the minerals.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:14:14 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > No need for colored water or rigging things so that you can run a
> >
> > cleaning with the head unparked.
> >
> >
> > Just put enough (distilled) water or the cleaning solution on the park
> >
> > pad sponge so it is very wet, run a cleaning cycle, and see if the
> >
> > fluid is gone.
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
> 
> 
> I would be afraid the head might splash that away and i might no
longer  
> see it.

No. The head slides over to the right, as it does the park pad travels
the last cm with it and rises up to meet the head. It is not violent
at all.

After a few cycles of this, you should expect to start noticing that
the park pad looks lighter and nearly dry. Don't touch it with
anything with fibers! It is not really a soft sponge, it is a hard
plastic foam that will snag. So much as a carpet fiber or nearly
invisible cat hair laid across the park pad rubber seal will cause ink
wicking and drying.

> Of course, if it is still there then the problem is identified.

That's the point.

Over time, paper sheds a very fine dust that, along with normal room
dust, mixes with the splattered ink into a thick mud.

There is also a rubber wiper just to the left of the park pads (see
Robert's pictures) that will also need to be cleaned. It wipes across
the bottom of the print head, if it is gunked up then it's like
cleaning a window with a dirty rag.

Steve Greenfield

Hi Voltan,

I volunteer. Send me the pcb's, I live in the US. I'll mix up a 
batch of etchant to Stefans specs.

If you want I'll mail you some of the thin pcb material that I have 
been using.

Let's trade addresses off group.

I'll be online this afternoon and can be contacted through Yahoo 
Instsnt Messenger -- Mycroft2152

TANSTAAFL!

Myc


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi Stefan,
> I can send sample board no problem.  Give me your address but 
postage can take around a week from USA to Europe via USPS or if 
there is someone who wish to try it in USA, it will be quicker. 
Combining inks in a one cartridge is a good idea another important 
thing is the thickness of the ink. I think on printer if you select 
black color printing it uses combination of 3 (may be 4) colors to 
generate black and huge amount of ink which results  thick ink layer 
on copper. Because of that I wonder whether with one color similar 
amount of ink can still be generated or not. Sw settings need to be 
checked. I will try it this night on foil.    

>   Volkan
>    
>    
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

This printer is much much worse off than I thought.  :(

(totally unnecessary HUGE detailed step by step report removed from here)

Bottom line, I have totally removed the cleaning cart and exposed the vacuum
tube from where it disappeared in my pic, all the way to the cleaning cart.
It is full of semi-liquid black goo.  A short smaller diameter tube leading
to the base of the cleaning cart seems totally gooped up.

I going to try to de-goop the short tube, and see if I can turn to a more
liquid state the section that leads to what looks like a small vacuum pump.
I can only assume the pump will work better if the liquid is thinner.

So I have no vacuum to speak of during the cleaning process, that can't be a
good thing.  I'd be really surprised if I can re-assemble this printer at
this point.  I didn't break anything, but the process of clipping back those
2 springs under the cleaning cart has since been added to the next Olympics
in China.

But I already had a backup plan, I have a brand new CX3810 with unopened
cartridges being shipped to me today.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Steve
Envoyé : avril 18 2006 11:37
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (was: Re: Inkjet ?)


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:14:14 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > No need for colored water or rigging things so that you can run a
> >
> > cleaning with the head unparked.
> >
> >
> > Just put enough (distilled) water or the cleaning solution on the 
> > park
> >
> > pad sponge so it is very wet, run a cleaning cycle, and see if the
> >
> > fluid is gone.
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
> 
> 
> I would be afraid the head might splash that away and i might no
longer  
> see it.

No. The head slides over to the right, as it does the park pad travels the
last cm with it and rises up to meet the head. It is not violent at all.

After a few cycles of this, you should expect to start noticing that the
park pad looks lighter and nearly dry. Don't touch it with anything with
fibers! It is not really a soft sponge, it is a hard plastic foam that will
snag. So much as a carpet fiber or nearly invisible cat hair laid across the
park pad rubber seal will cause ink wicking and drying.

> Of course, if it is still there then the problem is identified.

That's the point.

Over time, paper sheds a very fine dust that, along with normal room dust,
mixes with the splattered ink into a thick mud.

There is also a rubber wiper just to the left of the park pads (see Robert's
pictures) that will also need to be cleaned. It wipes across the bottom of
the print head, if it is gunked up then it's like cleaning a window with a
dirty rag.

Steve Greenfield





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Yahoo! Groups Links

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:41:11 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

> Hi Voltan,
>
>
> I volunteer. Send me the pcb's, I live in the US. I'll mix up a
>
> batch of etchant to Stefans specs.
>
>
> If you want I'll mail you some of the thin pcb material that I have
>
> been using.
>
>
> Let's trade addresses off group.
>
>
> I'll be online this afternoon and can be contacted through Yahoo
>
> Instsnt Messenger -- Mycroft2152
>
>
> TANSTAAFL!
>
>
> Myc


I can not give directions to mix something up.

It should be tested with CuCl, with measured density and known molarity,  
well regenerated. This can not be done from HCl and H2O2 "fresh".
Without knowing the HCl molarity the results would not say much. A quickly  
mixed together H2O2 HCl etchant "just for the occassion" is not telling me  
much, it is probably more agressive than a maintained CuCl etchant.

It would also be interesting for many to try fresh "one time" HCl H2O2  
etchant, but it would be easy for anyone with real CuCl to mix up a tiny  
amount, while the reverse is much harder.

ST

As unbelievable as it may sound, I've totally unclogged the 2 lengths of
tubing.  I've injected and pumped back out several syringes of IPA through
the vacuum pump.  I see the liquid flow through the clear tubing beyond the
pump, towards the rear of the printer.

Ok, so what kind of performance should I expect from a 'normal' operating
vacuum pump?

I have the tube just laying there with the mouth wide open.  I've put a few
drops of IPA in it and powered the printer on and off a few times, the drop
of liquid in the tubing did not move.  Was it supposed to, or is this normal
for a power on/off procedure?

I can't do a cleanup operation 'cause I'm out of ink.  Is there still hope
for this puppy, or should I take it out back and practice my baseball swing?

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Robert Hedan
Envoyé : avril 18 2006 13:17
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (the end of the trail)


This printer is much much worse off than I thought.  :(

...

Robert
:)

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:35:21 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> I can't do a cleanup operation 'cause I'm out of ink.  Is there still  
> hope
>
> for this puppy, or should I take it out back and practice my baseball  
> swing?
>
>
> Robert


What do you mean you are out of ink?
It doesn't matter you only want to see if the vacuum works, you don't need  
ink...

Maybe refill the carts with some cleaning solution, maybe diluted a bit  
more with distilled water, should take up more than enough ink from the  
remains in the cartridge to test the head.

ST

>I can't do a cleanup operation 'cause I'm out of ink. 

Check if the software at the link below will work with your printer;

4) Reset internal ink counters even with empty cartridges.

http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...> 
wrote:
>

I'm out of ink, as in <the cartridge is empty>, like I said a few posts
back.

I read somewhere that the Epson does not engage a cleaning cycle if the
black is empty.  And I was asking if it's possible that the vacuum 'action'
is part of the cleaning cycle, or if it engages whenever the print head does
its thing.

'Cause right now, I placed a small bubble of IPA in the clear tubing on
either side of the vacuum pump and they didn't move when I powered on and
off.  Now, that may be normal, depending on when the vacuum is used on this
printer.

I'm hesitant to put stuff down through the cartridge.  Steve has repeated
several times that that is not a good idea, but at this point, I'm not sure
if I can do more damage than a non-functioning printer.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : avril 18 2006 14:51
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson Stylus C84 (questions for Steve)


What do you mean you are out of ink?
It doesn't matter you only want to see if the vacuum works, you don't need  
ink...

Maybe refill the carts with some cleaning solution, maybe diluted a bit  
more with distilled water, should take up more than enough ink from the  
remains in the cartridge to test the head.

ST

>What do you mean you are out of ink?

Can't do cleaning cycle if the printer thinks it's out of ink. He has 
to fool it with software or a zapper first.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

I have C68 also. I have decided to switch CX4200
again, main reason is, I will design a paper emulator
in order to be sure the exact position of the PCB on
printer, with this emulator I could be able to place
pcb to a known place and start printing. I think it
will greatly solve alignment issue during paper
feeding phase. The advantage of CX4200 is, it has
optical encoder for both X and Y axises and it has
optical paper sensor where C68 has only optical
encoder for X axis, Y axis is step motor controlled
and has no idea about what is going on Y axis (no
feedback). 
May be Epson has some special ESC/P2 codes to cancel
paper feeding and paper sensing but I don't know it.
Volkan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> As unbelievable as it may sound, I've totally unclogged the 2 lengths of
> tubing.  I've injected and pumped back out several syringes of IPA
through
> the vacuum pump.  I see the liquid flow through the clear tubing
beyond the
> pump, towards the rear of the printer.

Not unbelieveable at all. I've cleaned up a lot of Epson (and Canon)
printers.

> Ok, so what kind of performance should I expect from a 'normal'
operating
> vacuum pump?

Um... some? 3? A furlong? How do I quantify it?

> I have the tube just laying there with the mouth wide open.  I've
put a few
> drops of IPA in it and powered the printer on and off a few times,
the drop
> of liquid in the tubing did not move.  Was it supposed to, or is
this normal
> for a power on/off procedure?

Not just on power on/off.

> I can't do a cleanup operation 'cause I'm out of ink.  Is there
still hope
> for this puppy, or should I take it out back and practice my
baseball swing?
> 

Have you tried SSC Service Utility to try and reset the ink chips?

You can inject a little cleaning solution (not straight IPA) into the
cartridges, but it isn't easy. Epson has gone to great lengths to
prevent refilling.

Better to buy a cheap set of 3rd party cartridge. These will be dye
inks, which is actually better for cleaning.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
...
> 'Cause right now, I placed a small bubble of IPA in the clear tubing on
> either side of the vacuum pump and they didn't move when I powered
on and
> off.  Now, that may be normal, depending on when the vacuum is used
on this
> printer.
> 
> I'm hesitant to put stuff down through the cartridge.  Steve has
repeated
> several times that that is not a good idea, but at this point, I'm
not sure
> if I can do more damage than a non-functioning printer.

Huh? That's not what I said. I said you shouldn't try to force
anything through the print head with a syringe.

The cartridge itself is an entirely different thing.

Steve Greenfield

Oh, that's different then.  I just prefered to err on the side of caution.
Too many times I've taken 'stuff' apart only to break it beyond repair.  I'm
just so surprised that I've actually gotten the entire cleaning cart back in
there within 1 minute.  The trick is to assemble the sliding brush-drawer
into the holding cart beforehand, attach the springs, and THEN clip it into
the printer and connect the hose.  When you're taking things out of the
printer, it's not always obvious what the 'tricks' are to put it back
together.

What alternative mixtures can you suggest for a cleaning solution?

I don't have ammonia and don't know where I can get any here.  I'll check
for Windex with ammonia, but I'm not sure we have any.

Robert
:)




-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Steve
Envoyé : avril 18 2006 15:35
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: RE : Epson Stylus C84 (questions for Steve)

Huh? That's not what I said. I said you shouldn't try to force anything
through the print head with a syringe.

The cartridge itself is an entirely different thing.

Steve Greenfield

I have the utility, but there's nothing to reset.  The cartridges are
totally empty, bone dry.  I can pass a wipe inside the exit hole and it
comes out clean.

Using a cleaning solution is my only option until I can afford to buy ink.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Steve
Envoyé : avril 18 2006 15:32
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: RE : Epson Stylus C84 (questions for Steve)


Have you tried SSC Service Utility to try and reset the ink chips?

...

Steve Greenfield
.

Amonia should be at your local grocery store.  I just bought a 
bottle there a couple of weeks ago.  It was a failed attempt to keep 
skunks and possums out of the yard - GRRRRR - I hate varmints!  


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan 
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, that's different then.  I just prefered to err on the side of 
caution.
> Too many times I've taken 'stuff' apart only to break it beyond 
repair.  I'm
> just so surprised that I've actually gotten the entire cleaning 
cart back in
> there within 1 minute.  The trick is to assemble the sliding brush-
drawer
> into the holding cart beforehand, attach the springs, and THEN 
clip it into
> the printer and connect the hose.  When you're taking things out 
of the
> printer, it's not always obvious what the 'tricks' are to put it 
back
> together.
> 
> What alternative mixtures can you suggest for a cleaning solution?
> 
> I don't have ammonia and don't know where I can get any here.  
I'll check
> for Windex with ammonia, but I'm not sure we have any.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
> la part de Steve
> Envoyé : avril 18 2006 15:35
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: RE : Epson Stylus C84 (questions for 
Steve)
> 
> Huh? That's not what I said. I said you shouldn't try to force 
anything

> through the print head with a syringe.
> 
> The cartridge itself is an entirely different thing.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

does ammonia have another name? is it sold as a cleaner under a brand name?


Chemicals cant really be bought in the uk, unless you go to a bulk
industrial supplier, who want paperwork just to sell water...........

Its like what you americans call 'lye'(caustic soda), you cant buy it
off the shelf here etc, IPA, drugstore only (chemist) and then its 20
questions to see why you want it and if you can get more than 20ml you
have won a the grand prize.

I dont know why our country is like this, its ''health and safety'' rules mad.

Only solvent I can buy in a bottle is methlated spirit, then its got a
blue dye in it that tastes awful to stop the bums drinking it instead
of french wine.

Uk inksuppliers, PC world or cheap clone cartridges from the likes of
'inkrite' etc so all dye based.

Its like living on an island..........

I know what you mean, but there probably are places selling the chemicals.
I didn't believe it either before i found a shop that still sells plain  
chemicals here in Austria.

Check google UK. It _will_ be hard to find, but i'm sure there is at least  
one place.
It does seem to the general public those chemicals are not sold, but it is  
really only a matter of finding the right shop. I doubt there are more  
stringent laws than in the rest of the EU, there is no good reason to keep  
you away from ammonia really. Drugstores tend to ask silly questions, they  
do that everywhere, but they have to deal with lotsa lunatics and ill  
people. Chemicals shops have to do with lots of people who need the  
chemicals for technical purposes, for them it is not a strange thing, like  
it is for the drugstores. Also the prices will be quite different.

ST

On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:24:52 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> does ammonia have another name? is it sold as a cleaner under a brand  
> name?
>
>
>
> Chemicals cant really be bought in the uk, unless you go to a bulk
>
> industrial supplier, who want paperwork just to sell water...........
>
>
> Its like what you americans call 'lye'(caustic soda), you cant buy it
>
> off the shelf here etc, IPA, drugstore only (chemist) and then its 20
>
> questions to see why you want it and if you can get more than 20ml you
>
> have won a the grand prize.
>
>
> I dont know why our country is like this, its ''health and safety''  
> rules mad.
>
>
> Only solvent I can buy in a bottle is methlated spirit, then its got a
>
> blue dye in it that tastes awful to stop the bums drinking it instead
>
> of french wine.
>
>
> Uk inksuppliers, PC world or cheap clone cartridges from the likes of
>
> 'inkrite' etc so all dye based.
>
>
> Its like living on an island..........
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Lez" <lez.briddon@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: RE : Epson Stylus C84 (questions for Steve)


> does ammonia have another name? is it sold as a cleaner under a brand 
> name?
>
>
> Chemicals cant really be bought in the uk, unless you go to a bulk
> industrial supplier, who want paperwork just to sell water...........
>
> Its like what you americans call 'lye'(caustic soda), you cant buy it
> off the shelf here etc, IPA, drugstore only (chemist) and then its 20
> questions to see why you want it and if you can get more than 20ml you
> have won a the grand prize.

I can get NaOH and HCl from my local hardware shops.

>
> I dont know why our country is like this, its ''health and safety'' rules 
> mad.
>
> Only solvent I can buy in a bottle is methlated spirit, then its got a
> blue dye in it that tastes awful to stop the bums drinking it instead
> of french wine.

Farnell, RS and Rapid stock IPA.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:31:46 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Eyeglass tissues are good, usually. Let them dry out and wet them with
>
> the cleaning solution. Just damp, not dripping.

Can do!

How do you feel about clean (new) sponges and kitchen washing up pads?  
Those don't seem to have fibers that can come loose.

>
>
> What you said about the percentage of ammonia sounds right. You can
>
> skip the IPA if you wish, but you should use filtered or distilled water.
>
>
> "Purified" water is just tap water that has had clorine gas added or
>
> been passed under UV to kill junk in it, but still has all the minerals.


I do have IPA, i just feel ethanol is better for cleaning most stuff. I  
can and will use the IPA no problem.

Have proper distilled water also.

I bought a epson stylus color 600, that is supposed to be fully working,  
for 3.50 eur.

Do you think that one is suitable to try the MIS ink? I think it is, since  
you said older printers are OK.


ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@
> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:31:46 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > Eyeglass tissues are good, usually. Let them dry out and wet them 
> > with
> >
> > the cleaning solution. Just damp, not dripping.
> 
> Can do!
> 
> How do you feel about clean (new) sponges and kitchen washing up 
> pads?  
> Those don't seem to have fibers that can come loose.
> 
> >
> >
> 

In the US there are two products I reccomend, Bounty makes a paper 
towel specifically for glass, it's on a roll and has a blue quilt 
pattern on it. It's not 100% lint free but it's /far/ better than a 
standard paper towel. It also does not leave residue - I've found many 
paper towels will leave residue on metal if used with IPA or acetone 
that causes as many problems as whatever was originally contaminating 
the board. The blue ones do not do this.

Windex has now come out with disposable microfiber cloths. These are 
also 100% lint free. They're usually found with the 'swiffer' cloths 
since they're in a box. They're also reusable. I found them rather 
useless for cleaning glass because they're /so/ non-abrasive that 
anything that might be really gummed up on the window will not come 
off. I prefer the Bounty paper towels for actual glass cleaning, but 
the Windex ones might be better for this application.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:31:46 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > Eyeglass tissues are good, usually. Let them dry out and wet them with
> >
> > the cleaning solution. Just damp, not dripping.
> 
> Can do!
> 
> How do you feel about clean (new) sponges and kitchen washing up pads?  
> Those don't seem to have fibers that can come loose.

I don't know what a "kitchen washing up pad" is. And there are as many
types of sponges as... something really numerous.

> 
> I do have IPA, i just feel ethanol is better for cleaning most
stuff. I  
> can and will use the IPA no problem.

It may be better for most "stuff", but it does attack some plastics
and I have not found it to be particularly great on ink. The ammonia
is the main part of the cleaning solution, in any case.

> Have proper distilled water also.

Great!

> I bought a epson stylus color 600, that is supposed to be fully
working,  
> for 3.50 eur.
> 
> Do you think that one is suitable to try the MIS ink? I think it is,
since  
> you said older printers are OK.

Older is probably better. I have run MIS pigmented ink in an Epson 600
with success.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> > <stefan_trethan@
> > wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:31:46 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@> wrote:
> > 
> > > Eyeglass tissues are good, usually. Let them dry out and wet them 
> > > with
> > >
> > > the cleaning solution. Just damp, not dripping.
> > 
> > Can do!
> > 
> > How do you feel about clean (new) sponges and kitchen washing up 
> > pads?  
> > Those don't seem to have fibers that can come loose.
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > 
> 
> In the US there are two products I reccomend, Bounty makes a paper 
> towel specifically for glass, it's on a roll and has a blue quilt 
> pattern on it. It's not 100% lint free but it's /far/ better than a 
> standard paper towel. It also does not leave residue - I've found many 
> paper towels will leave residue on metal if used with IPA or acetone 
> that causes as many problems as whatever was originally contaminating 
> the board. The blue ones do not do this.

In an inkjet printer, just one fiber left touching a nozzle can cause
banding and ink wicking. Just one fiber left across the rubber seal on
the park pad can cause ink wicking and drying.

> Windex has now come out with disposable microfiber cloths. These are 
> also 100% lint free. They're usually found with the 'swiffer' cloths 
> since they're in a box. They're also reusable. I found them rather 
> useless for cleaning glass because they're /so/ non-abrasive that 
> anything that might be really gummed up on the window will not come 
> off. I prefer the Bounty paper towels for actual glass cleaning, but 
> the Windex ones might be better for this application.

This sounds a lot like the Coralite premoistened Window Wipes that I
use. Check for a Dollar Store (the actual name of the store is The
Dollar Store) and see if your's carries them. They are the most truly
lint-free wipe I've come across, even counting all the different types
I've tried as an electronics tech that were supposedly lint-free.

You could use those non-disposable microfiber cloths, but as it takes
a couple dozen to clean up a dirty printer, you will be doing an awful
lot of washing of that cloth.

I just got a C84 without cartridges (dang it!) and a Photo EX (no
chips) to play with.

Steve Greenfield

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:08:50 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> I don't know what a "kitchen washing up pad" is. And there are as many
>
> types of sponges as... something really numerous.
>

Like "wettex" brand. (Actually this brand has become a name for the item  
here like with so many products).
<www.langmann.co.at/bilder/Schwammtuch_Anwendung.jpg>

Or PU sponges like these, soft side:
<http://www.langmann.co.at/bilder/PSTopfreiniger_mit_Griff.jpg>

You think they might be acceptable to clean the hard plastig snaggy sponge  
pad, and to clean the head maybe like you described?


> Older is probably better. I have run MIS pigmented ink in an Epson 600
>
> with success.
>

Ok, great. I hope this printer is really all ok and i don't need to clean  
the head...


ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:08:50 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > I don't know what a "kitchen washing up pad" is. And there are as many
> >
> > types of sponges as... something really numerous.
> >
> 
> Like "wettex" brand. (Actually this brand has become a name for the
item  
> here like with so many products).
> <http://www.langmann.co.at/bilder/Schwammtuch_Anwendung.jpg>

I know those, we have those here, too. Whether I get them from the
Dollar Store, or from the grocery store (for a lot more), they all
seem the same.

> Or PU sponges like these, soft side:
> <http://www.langmann.co.at/bilder/PSTopfreiniger_mit_Griff.jpg>

I can't tell. Those come in a lot of different varieties.

> You think they might be acceptable to clean the hard plastig snaggy
sponge  
> pad, and to clean the head maybe like you described?

Just don't rub that hard plastic sponge thing. It will snag anything.
I flood it with cleaner and blot it out, repeat, then only wipe the
rubber seal around it. No matter what you use. The first sponge you
listed should work fine. In fact, that may work very well cut into
strips and placed under the print head! Make a lot of them, use them
and toss into a bucket, then rinse all out later. Premoisten with the
cleaning solution.

I've used forceps or tweezers to remove any hair on the park pad.

Don't forget to clean the rubber wiper that is just to the left of the
park pad. It'll have globs of ink mud on it, just lift it off with
something like a toothpick or wooden skewer, then after most is gone
you can follow up with something dampened in cleaning solution.

> > Older is probably better. I have run MIS pigmented ink in an Epson 600
> >
> > with success.
> >
> 
> Ok, great. I hope this printer is really all ok and i don't need to
clean  
> the head...

If you do, see my cleaning instructions webpages.

Steve Greenfield

Ok Steve, thanks.

Your nice new subject line has given me another thing to ask about.

Ink cartridges.
How do i clean them.

inksupply.com as nice spongeless carts for some newer printers, but not  
for the 600 it seems.

How can i in general clean a ink cartridge to clear it of old ink?  
Wouldn't one need huge amounts of distilled water?

Thanks

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Ink cartridges.
> How do i clean them.
> 
> inksupply.com as nice spongeless carts for some newer printers, but
not  
> for the 600 it seems.
> 
> How can i in general clean a ink cartridge to clear it of old ink?  
> Wouldn't one need huge amounts of distilled water?

I cleaned out the existing cartidges in the 600 I got. I drilled holes
in the tops (had to anyway to refill) and used a vacuum to pull
cleaning solution through the foam. A nebulizer from the thrift store
pulls hard enough, although it was built for pressure rather than vacuum.

It takes a moderate amount if the cartridge is already mostly used up.
Then I pull just air through it for a while to get most of the water
out. Don't try and dry it out, that's not good anyway and a tiny bit
of water in there won't dilute the ink much.

Steve Greenfield

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 at 02:46, Steve wrote:
>Subject: Re: Epson Cleaning
>
>http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/PrintHeadCleaning/
>
>1 part household non-sudsing ammonia (no lemon cr@p)
>4 parts 50% isopropyl alcohol
>5 parts distilled or filtered water (-not- purified water)

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 at 15:31, Steve clarified:

>...You can
>skip the IPA if you wish, but you should use filtered or distilled water.
>
>"Purified" water is just tap water that has had clorine gas added or
>been passed under UV to kill junk in it, but still has all the minerals.
>
>Steve Greenfield

This seems to be another example of  GBS's aphorism
"Two nations separated by a common tongue."

This morning my father bought from the local chemist (pharmacy)
"Purified Water (Conductivity under 30uS) Non-Sterile 5 litre" @ £2.79

[We also have "Purified Water BP" which comes weld-sealed in
poly bottles and is sterile and guaranteed to be free of pyrogens too
but I don't know the specification of that offhand.]

Now, 30uS (microsiemens per centimetre) sounds pretty pure to me.

True, it's not as low as pure water (0.055uS/cm @ 25 deg. C) but
it's better than rainwater (35 - 100uS/cm) which is normally considered
relatively free of minerals, i.e. ionic compounds.

I strongly doubt the water for the household ammonia is much purer.

30uS/cm approximates to 15ppm NaCl or 20ppm mixed salts.
Surely not enough to compromise print heads?


Regards, LenW
-- 
   Please trim quotes to minimum for context, then
   reply _below_ or interleave point-by-point replies.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:
...
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 at 15:31, Steve clarified:
> 
> >...You can
> >skip the IPA if you wish, but you should use filtered or distilled
water.
> >
> >"Purified" water is just tap water that has had clorine gas added or
> >been passed under UV to kill junk in it, but still has all the
minerals.
> >
> >Steve Greenfield
> 
> This seems to be another example of  GBS's aphorism
> "Two nations separated by a common tongue."
> 
> This morning my father bought from the local chemist (pharmacy)
> "Purified Water (Conductivity under 30uS) Non-Sterile 5 litre" @ £2.79
> 
> [We also have "Purified Water BP" which comes weld-sealed in
> poly bottles and is sterile and guaranteed to be free of pyrogens too
> but I don't know the specification of that offhand.]

Well, that's great but at least in the US (where 90% of the population
is stupid for bottled water) you can pick up jugs of "purified" water
all day in grocery stores that are as I described. Killed but not
filtered or distilled. And then there is bottled drinking water, who
knows what is in there? I picked up a bottle of what I thought was
water at a local charity event; it was clear, it said the word "Water"
on it. Imagine my surprise when it turned out sticky and sweet! "How
Gatorade does water." Ugh. Give me good ol' dihydrogen monoxide any day.

And any of these I can pick up from the local drugstore. As I can also
pick up oily rubbing alcohol and soapy cleaning ammonia.

Hence my clarification. Since you can figure out what I meant by the
words I used, no need to try and drag me over the coals about it.

Steve Greenfield

In article <e25j92+l4c4@...>,
   derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> >I dont know why our country is like this, its ''health and safety'' 
> >rules mad.

> Do you guys still need a license in order to own/use a transistor radio 
> or was that just a rumor?

The "Radio receiving license" was abandoned quite a few years ago in the
uk.

The BBC's funding now comes from the "TV licence" and via the commercial
sales of books and videos etc.

Lez,

I used to buy some chemicals from a mail-order supplier called Rayco who
used to supply chemicals for "experimental" photographers and those who
liked to "homebrew" their own developers etc. However, the last time I
looked they seemed to have disappeared. I guess everyone moving to digital
photography didn't help their business.

You could try:

http://www.silverprint.co.uk/chem24.html

Or:

http://www.labpakchemicals.com/

I haven't tried buying from either of these, the £50 minimum put me off
the latter but maybe we could split an order.

Stuart

lists wrote:
> In article <e25j92+l4c4@...>,
>    derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> 
>>>I dont know why our country is like this, its ''health and safety'' 
>>>rules mad.
> 
>>Do you guys still need a license in order to own/use a transistor radio 
>>or was that just a rumor?
> 
> The "Radio receiving license" was abandoned quite a few years ago in the
> uk.
> 
> The BBC's funding now comes from the "TV licence" and via the commercial
> sales of books and videos etc.

Slightly OT, but how do those TV vans detect LCD TVs, TV played on a pc
monitor or laptop, and hand-held TVs?

> Lez,
> 
> I used to buy some chemicals from a mail-order supplier called Rayco who
> used to supply chemicals for "experimental" photographers and those who
> liked to "homebrew" their own developers etc. However, the last time I
> looked they seemed to have disappeared. I guess everyone moving to digital
> photography didn't help their business.
> 
> You could try:
> 
> http://www.silverprint.co.uk/chem24.html
> 
> Or:
> 
> http://www.labpakchemicals.com/
> 
> I haven't tried buying from either of these, the \ufffd50 minimum put me off
> the latter but maybe we could split an order.
>

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:59:55 +0200, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...>  
wrote:

>
>
> Slightly OT, but how do those TV vans detect LCD TVs, TV played on a pc
>
> monitor or laptop, and hand-held TVs?
>


I don't think they detect anything.
They just knock on your door and ask, that's how it is here.

If you remove the tuner out of the TV you can have it without paying, for  
example to watch foreign satellite TV.

ST

In article <444A1ABB.5030802@...>,
   Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:

> Slightly OT, but how do those TV vans detect LCD TVs, TV played on a pc
> monitor or laptop, and hand-held TVs?

My understanding is that they DF on the stray radiation from the IF strip
of the receiver.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "lists" <stuart.winsor.lists@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: RE : Epson Stylus C84 (questions for Steve)


> In article <444A1ABB.5030802@...>,
>   Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:
>
>> Slightly OT, but how do those TV vans detect LCD TVs, TV played on a pc
>> monitor or laptop, and hand-held TVs?
>
> My understanding is that they DF on the stray radiation from the IF strip
> of the receiver.

No, they pick up the LO signal from the antenna. They can tell which station 
the TV is tuned to. They don't use vans any more, though.

Leon

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 on 14:39, alienrelics wrote:
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 at 15:31, Steve clarified:
> > >"Purified" water is just tap water that has had clorine gas added or
> > >been passed under UV to kill junk in it, but still has all the
>minerals.
> >
> > This seems to be another example of  GBS's aphorism
> > "Two nations separated by a common tongue."
> >
> > This morning my father bought from the local chemist (pharmacy)
> > "Purified Water (Conductivity under 30uS) Non-Sterile 5 litre" @ £2.79
>
>Well, that's great but at least in the US (where 90% of the population
>is stupid for bottled water) you can pick up jugs of "purified" water
>all day in grocery stores that are as I described. Killed but not
>filtered or distilled. And then there is bottled drinking water, who
>knows what is in there?

Over here it's commonly called "mineral water" but it can be high or
low in mineral content. The better brands have an analysis on the label.

>Hence my clarification. Since you can figure out what I meant by the
>words I used, no need to try and drag me over the coals about it.

No personal criticism intended, Steve. Your posts are exemplary for
content and style. However, it wasn't until your clarification that I
understood what you had against 'purified' water.

I just wanted to point out that some things have different meanings
this side of the pond and, although we are aware of the common
differences, others aren't so obvious. As also in the 3 varieties of
Tarn-X: even those guys on the jewellery list seem to be at cross-
purposes over two different products.

'Sharpie'  too: not a common brand over here, though probably
I could find it if I searched hard. Similar _function_ over here is
the "Staedtler Lumocolor Permanent" AV transparency marker,
also reported to be excellent on PCB, solvent smells like
a ketone/alcohol mix - hence the excellent penetration & grip.
Not compatible with ordinary printheads, though :-(

There's some interesting research going on in the group, it would
be wonderful if etching PCBs became as easy as getting photos
from a booth or business cards from a kiosk. It's interesting
physical chemistry too, not just boring reactions in a test tube
but where technology merges with skill and art.

When someone finds the right recipe we shall need to copy it
very closely: at the moment, we could barely share the making
of a consistent loaf of bread. (I'm being serious, that _is_ tricky.)
It might be a good idea to get into practice.

Well done, all you experimenters out there - but please make sure
you tell us clearly all your ingredients and steps.


Regards, LenW
-- 
   Quote little, say much - as a general guide,
   your reply should be bigger than your quote
   - and following it, of course ;-)

>chips are not an issue, I bought a 'zapper' thats easy to use, just
>clip the cartridge into it, press the button, light flashes 5 times
>and the chip is reset to 'full'.



>gadget cost about $10

Where to buy it, please.
Cristian

On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 21:36:44 +0200, cristian <cristianbip@...>  
wrote:

>
>
> Where to buy it, please.
>
> Cristian
>


ebay has it.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, cristian <cristianbip@...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> >chips are not an issue, I bought a 'zapper' thats easy to use, just
> >clip the cartridge into it, press the button, light flashes 5 times
> >and the chip is reset to 'full'.
> 
> 
> 
> >gadget cost about $10
> 
> Where to buy it, please.
> Cristian
>

Staples carries a Jet Tec resetter for about $10, not all stores have 
it though so call ahead first.

Yes, you can get them for $1-3 on eBay... plus $10 shipping, most of 
the time. Plus the wait to ship it. Then you hope it won't mess up the 
chip, etc.

> Yes, you can get them for $1-3 on eBay... plus $10 shipping, most of
> the time. Plus the wait to ship it. Then you hope it won't mess up the
> chip, etc.

Please dont knock cheap off ebay, it comes out the same chinese
factory as any megabuck product, but without the markup for the
brandname and box.

I bought mine off ebay 3 years ago for a cheap price, never let me down yet.

On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:09:07 +0200, fenrir_co <fenrir@...>  
wrote:

>
>
> Staples carries a Jet Tec resetter for about $10, not all stores have
>
> it though so call ahead first.
>
>
> Yes, you can get them for $1-3 on eBay... plus $10 shipping, most of
>
> the time. Plus the wait to ship it. Then you hope it won't mess up the
>
> chip, etc.


But looking at the time to visit a shop even relatively close by the  
shipping doesn't look so bad.
Even according to your pricing i would only save $1-3 for going to the  
shop, my time is worth more than that. And most likely the shop doesn't  
have it, or ran out of it, or it is incredibly expensive...
If i ebay with some wit to find a reasonable seller, which means paying  
about $6 for the resetter and about $4 for shipping, that takes me less  
than 10 minutes, at home, any time of day or night i like. Then i just  
need to wait for it to arrive in my mailbox, which with reasonable  
planning is not going to matter because i ordered it in time.

Ebay does have it's advantages. I cought myself several times buying stuff  
in shops i would not have bought at ebay for that price, usually because i  
was in a hurry and had planned to go there and buy that and just wasn't  
flexible enough in my planning to actually think and notice i'm doing  
something stupid.


ST