Homebrew PCBs

Hello Sir Dennis,

Yes, I just got back from Office Depot and have in hand...

            an HP Laserjet 1020 printer

                         +

             50 pack of laserjet transparencies

I am looking forward for tonight, as I will try my hand and
iron...making my first toner transfer.

Do give me some points, if you would, as I am presently making my PCB
design in my "Paint' Program in Windows 98. Is there a better program
to use?

I always look forward to your great advice, as you have walked down
the road, that I am about to embark!

...your friend, Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I use Eagle Lite.  That version will do small double sided boards 
free.  Download from http://www.eaglesoft.de/freeware

Prep your boards the normal way

Put board on a block of wood covered with a doubled paper towel

Set iron to cotton/wool setting with no steam (you need to 
experiment with correct temp.

Place board on board, align artwork (trimmed to slightly larger than 
board), cover with another doubled paper towel (be careful not to 
let transparency slip)

Apply iron for 20-30 seconds.  Gently lift from one corner making 
sure to hold down transparency while lifting paper towel.  
Transparency will usually stick but will stop after transparency 
gets it's fill of paper fibers.

Iron and check progress every 30 seconds or so to see when toner is 
melting.  You need to get it all melted, but not so much that it 
smears badly.  Watch for traces that are starting to spread and 
don't let pad holes close completely.

When you think things are melted well enough, remove the board from 
the block of wood and set it aside to cool.

Start your next transfer if you have more.

When the first board has cooled to the touch, but is still warm, 
peel the trasparency from the board; starting at one corner.  If 
little or no toner stays on the transparency, you're done.

If a lot of toner stays on the transparency, stop peeling as soon as 
you notice that.  Iron more and try again.

Once the transparency has been removed, you may notice some residue 
from the transparency.  Clean this off with soap, water, and a 
toothbrush.  You don't need to do this under running water.  Wet the 
board, apply some soap (I use liquid hand soap), scrub the board 
thoroughly (shouldn't have any problems with toner being removed), 
rinse board, blot dry and store in plastic bag until ready to etch.

That's it.

I cut and paste my design and array (panelize) it so it fills as 
much of the transparency as possible.  I leave enough empty space 
for a 1" boarder around the perimeter and 0.3 inches or so between 
patterns.  Keep your fingers off the toner side and store them where 
they won't collect dust.

Make sure there's no dust on the board or transparency when you 
start transfering.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500" 
<braincambre500@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Sir Dennis,
> 
> Yes, I just got back from Office Depot and have in hand...
> 
>             an HP Laserjet 1020 printer
> 
>                          +
> 
>              50 pack of laserjet transparencies
> 
> I am looking forward for tonight, as I will try my hand and
> iron...making my first toner transfer.
> 
> Do give me some points, if you would, as I am presently making my 
PCB
> design in my "Paint' Program in Windows 98. Is there a better 
program

> to use?
> 
> I always look forward to your great advice, as you have walked down
> the road, that I am about to embark!
> 
> ...your friend, Patrick
>

Hello Dennis,

Well, I tried many a' times...but I seem to not get all of the toner
off of the transparency. I went 10 seconds, then 30 seconds, then 1
minutes, then 2 minutes, then 5 minutes, and even 10 minutes. But the
toner seems to break away in parts from the transparency. 

I am using laser color transparencies...not black and white. Also it's
not inkject transparency. 

Could that be the culprit?

Patrick




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Patrick,
> 
> I use Eagle Lite.  That version will do small double sided boards 
> free.  Download from http://www.eaglesoft.de/freeware
> 
> Prep your boards the normal way
> 
> Put board on a block of wood covered with a doubled paper towel
> 
> Set iron to cotton/wool setting with no steam (you need to 
> experiment with correct temp.
> 
> Place board on board, align artwork (trimmed to slightly larger than 
> board), cover with another doubled paper towel (be careful not to 
> let transparency slip)
> 
> Apply iron for 20-30 seconds.  Gently lift from one corner making 
> sure to hold down transparency while lifting paper towel.  
> Transparency will usually stick but will stop after transparency 
> gets it's fill of paper fibers.
> 
> Iron and check progress every 30 seconds or so to see when toner is 
> melting.  You need to get it all melted, but not so much that it 
> smears badly.  Watch for traces that are starting to spread and 
> don't let pad holes close completely.
> 
> When you think things are melted well enough, remove the board from 
> the block of wood and set it aside to cool.
> 
> Start your next transfer if you have more.
> 
> When the first board has cooled to the touch, but is still warm, 
> peel the trasparency from the board; starting at one corner.  If 
> little or no toner stays on the transparency, you're done.
> 
> If a lot of toner stays on the transparency, stop peeling as soon as 
> you notice that.  Iron more and try again.
> 
> Once the transparency has been removed, you may notice some residue 
> from the transparency.  Clean this off with soap, water, and a 
> toothbrush.  You don't need to do this under running water.  Wet the 
> board, apply some soap (I use liquid hand soap), scrub the board 
> thoroughly (shouldn't have any problems with toner being removed), 
> rinse board, blot dry and store in plastic bag until ready to etch.
> 
> That's it.
> 
> I cut and paste my design and array (panelize) it so it fills as 
> much of the transparency as possible.  I leave enough empty space 
> for a 1" boarder around the perimeter and 0.3 inches or so between 
> patterns.  Keep your fingers off the toner side and store them where 
> they won't collect dust.
> 
> Make sure there's no dust on the board or transparency when you 
> start transfering.
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500" 
> <braincambre500@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Sir Dennis,
> > 
> > Yes, I just got back from Office Depot and have in hand...
> > 
> >             an HP Laserjet 1020 printer
> > 
> >                          +
> > 
> >              50 pack of laserjet transparencies
> > 
> > I am looking forward for tonight, as I will try my hand and
> > iron...making my first toner transfer.
> > 
> > Do give me some points, if you would, as I am presently making my 
> PCB
> > design in my "Paint' Program in Windows 98. Is there a better 
> program
> > to use?
> > 
> > I always look forward to your great advice, as you have walked down
> > the road, that I am about to embark!
> > 
> > ...your friend, Patrick
> >
>

Hello again Sir Dennis,

Well, I found out how to make all the toner stay on the PCB. I decided
to use my HP Photo Paper. A perfect PCB the very first time!

I want to thank you for guiding me as you did. If it were not for you,
I would never have decided to get the printer and try it out!

There is no bleeding, and there is absolutely no breaks anywhere.
Imagine that. Now I do not have to mail order for anything. 

Yes, again, thank you very much for taking the time to come to my
concerns!!

...your friend, Patrick

P.S. Oh yes, my website is at...

                 http://braincambre500.freeservers.com

Should  you fancy any of the projects, I will surely come to your aid,
in helping you through any of them, my good friend!

               ...and let our  journeys continue ! ! !








--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500"
<braincambre500@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Dennis,
> 
> Well, I tried many a' times...but I seem to not get all of the toner
> off of the transparency. I went 10 seconds, then 30 seconds, then 1
> minutes, then 2 minutes, then 5 minutes, and even 10 minutes. But the
> toner seems to break away in parts from the transparency. 
> 
> I am using laser color transparencies...not black and white. Also it's
> not inkject transparency. 
> 
> Could that be the culprit?
> 
> Patrick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Patrick,
> > 
> > I use Eagle Lite.  That version will do small double sided boards 
> > free.  Download from http://www.eaglesoft.de/freeware
> > 
> > Prep your boards the normal way
> > 
> > Put board on a block of wood covered with a doubled paper towel
> > 
> > Set iron to cotton/wool setting with no steam (you need to 
> > experiment with correct temp.
> > 
> > Place board on board, align artwork (trimmed to slightly larger than 
> > board), cover with another doubled paper towel (be careful not to 
> > let transparency slip)
> > 
> > Apply iron for 20-30 seconds.  Gently lift from one corner making 
> > sure to hold down transparency while lifting paper towel.  
> > Transparency will usually stick but will stop after transparency 
> > gets it's fill of paper fibers.
> > 
> > Iron and check progress every 30 seconds or so to see when toner is 
> > melting.  You need to get it all melted, but not so much that it 
> > smears badly.  Watch for traces that are starting to spread and 
> > don't let pad holes close completely.
> > 
> > When you think things are melted well enough, remove the board from 
> > the block of wood and set it aside to cool.
> > 
> > Start your next transfer if you have more.
> > 
> > When the first board has cooled to the touch, but is still warm, 
> > peel the trasparency from the board; starting at one corner.  If 
> > little or no toner stays on the transparency, you're done.
> > 
> > If a lot of toner stays on the transparency, stop peeling as soon as 
> > you notice that.  Iron more and try again.
> > 
> > Once the transparency has been removed, you may notice some residue 
> > from the transparency.  Clean this off with soap, water, and a 
> > toothbrush.  You don't need to do this under running water.  Wet the 
> > board, apply some soap (I use liquid hand soap), scrub the board 
> > thoroughly (shouldn't have any problems with toner being removed), 
> > rinse board, blot dry and store in plastic bag until ready to etch.
> > 
> > That's it.
> > 
> > I cut and paste my design and array (panelize) it so it fills as 
> > much of the transparency as possible.  I leave enough empty space 
> > for a 1" boarder around the perimeter and 0.3 inches or so between 
> > patterns.  Keep your fingers off the toner side and store them where 
> > they won't collect dust.
> > 
> > Make sure there's no dust on the board or transparency when you 
> > start transfering.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Dennis
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500" 
> > <braincambre500@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Sir Dennis,
> > > 
> > > Yes, I just got back from Office Depot and have in hand...
> > > 
> > >             an HP Laserjet 1020 printer
> > > 
> > >                          +
> > > 
> > >              50 pack of laserjet transparencies
> > > 
> > > I am looking forward for tonight, as I will try my hand and
> > > iron...making my first toner transfer.
> > > 
> > > Do give me some points, if you would, as I am presently making my 
> > PCB
> > > design in my "Paint' Program in Windows 98. Is there a better 
> > program
> > > to use?
> > > 
> > > I always look forward to your great advice, as you have walked down
> > > the road, that I am about to embark!
> > > 
> > > ...your friend, Patrick
> > >
> >
>

Hi Patrick,

The technique for using laser transparencies is different than 
inkjet and I never got the same results.  Sopry I didn't catch that 
you were using "laserjet" and not "inkjet" transparencies.  Could 
have saved you some time.

With inkjet transparencies, the best results are when the toner and 
board have cooled to the touch.

With laser transparencies, I had the best results when I removed the 
transparency while the board and toner were hot.  You verified what 
I found.  If you let the board and toner cool, the transparency has 
a greater affinity for toner than the board.

If you can find someone to give you a scrap or sell you a sheet or 
two , give inkjet transparencies a try.  The smallest pack I've seen 
is 20 sheets with 30-50 being more typical.  At almost a dollar a 
sheet, that can be expensive if all inkjet transparencies aren't 
equal...

I've only tried HP injket transparencies (not their Premium version 
that seems to be the only one available now).  I'll be trying some 
generic Compusa sheets in a week or two.  The price difference isn't 
that great, but it'll give me another data point to see if it's only 
HP's that work well...

Did you have to do much scrubbing to get the paper residue off?  The 
nice thing about using inkjet transparencies is that the toner isn't 
fuzzy.  Maybe I didn't scrub enough when I tried various papers...

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500" 
<braincambre500@...> wrote:
>
> Hello again Sir Dennis,
> 
> Well, I found out how to make all the toner stay on the PCB. I 
decided
> to use my HP Photo Paper. A perfect PCB the very first time!
> 
> I want to thank you for guiding me as you did. If it were not for 
you,
> I would never have decided to get the printer and try it out!
> 
> There is no bleeding, and there is absolutely no breaks anywhere.
> Imagine that. Now I do not have to mail order for anything. 
> 
> Yes, again, thank you very much for taking the time to come to my
> concerns!!
> 
> ...your friend, Patrick
> 
> P.S. Oh yes, my website is at...
> 
>                  http://braincambre500.freeservers.com
> 
> Should  you fancy any of the projects, I will surely come to your 
aid,
> in helping you through any of them, my good friend!
> 
>                ...and let our  journeys continue ! ! !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500"
> <braincambre500@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Dennis,
> > 
> > Well, I tried many a' times...but I seem to not get all of the 
toner
> > off of the transparency. I went 10 seconds, then 30 seconds, 
then 1
> > minutes, then 2 minutes, then 5 minutes, and even 10 minutes. 
But the
> > toner seems to break away in parts from the transparency. 
> > 
> > I am using laser color transparencies...not black and white. 
Also it's

> > not inkject transparency. 
> > 
> > Could that be the culprit?
> > 
> > Patrick

Hello Sir Dennis,

Yes, I use a little WD-40 to get the rest of the
residue off the board.

I will go ahead today, and get a brand new sheet of
double-sided PCB at Radio Shack, and then make a
design from one of my projects at my website.

I will let you know how the etchant worked on the
board, since I am not sure all of the residue was
taken off.

                             ...your friend, Patrick

P.S. But the board sure came out great. I was amazed!


--- dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
> 
> The technique for using laser transparencies is
> different than 
> inkjet and I never got the same results.  Sopry I
> didn't catch that 
> you were using "laserjet" and not "inkjet"
> transparencies.  Could 
> have saved you some time.
> 
> With inkjet transparencies, the best results are
> when the toner and 
> board have cooled to the touch.
> 
> With laser transparencies, I had the best results
> when I removed the 
> transparency while the board and toner were hot. 
> You verified what 
> I found.  If you let the board and toner cool, the
> transparency has 
> a greater affinity for toner than the board.
> 
> If you can find someone to give you a scrap or sell
> you a sheet or 
> two , give inkjet transparencies a try.  The
> smallest pack I've seen 
> is 20 sheets with 30-50 being more typical.  At
> almost a dollar a 
> sheet, that can be expensive if all inkjet
> transparencies aren't 
> equal...
> 
> I've only tried HP injket transparencies (not their
> Premium version 
> that seems to be the only one available now).  I'll
> be trying some 
> generic Compusa sheets in a week or two.  The price
> difference isn't 
> that great, but it'll give me another data point to
> see if it's only 
> HP's that work well...
> 
> Did you have to do much scrubbing to get the paper
> residue off?  The 
> nice thing about using inkjet transparencies is that
> the toner isn't 
> fuzzy.  Maybe I didn't scrub enough when I tried
> various papers...
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,
> "braincambre500" 
> <braincambre500@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello again Sir Dennis,
> > 
> > Well, I found out how to make all the toner stay
> on the PCB. I 
> decided
> > to use my HP Photo Paper. A perfect PCB the very
> first time!
> > 
> > I want to thank you for guiding me as you did. If
> it were not for 
> you,
> > I would never have decided to get the printer and
> try it out!
> > 
> > There is no bleeding, and there is absolutely no
> breaks anywhere.
> > Imagine that. Now I do not have to mail order for
> anything. 
> > 
> > Yes, again, thank you very much for taking the
> time to come to my
> > concerns!!
> > 
> > ...your friend, Patrick
> > 
> > P.S. Oh yes, my website is at...
> > 
> >                 
> http://braincambre500.freeservers.com
> > 
> > Should  you fancy any of the projects, I will
> surely come to your 
> aid,
> > in helping you through any of them, my good
> friend!
> > 
> >                ...and let our  journeys continue !
> ! !
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,
> "braincambre500"
> > <braincambre500@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Dennis,
> > > 
> > > Well, I tried many a' times...but I seem to not
> get all of the 
> toner
> > > off of the transparency. I went 10 seconds, then
> 30 seconds, 
> then 1
> > > minutes, then 2 minutes, then 5 minutes, and
> even 10 minutes. 
> But the
> > > toner seems to break away in parts from the
> transparency. 
> > > 
> > > I am using laser color transparencies...not
> black and white. 
> Also it's
> > > not inkject transparency. 
> > > 
> > > Could that be the culprit?
> > > 
> > > Patrick
> 
> 
> 
> 


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braincambre500 wrote:

>Hello Sir Dennis,
>
>  
>


  Anyone else feel like they're sitting at the round table lately?  :)

Alan

Hi Patrick,

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Cambre 
<braincambre500@...> wrote:

> I will go ahead today, and get a brand new sheet of
> double-sided PCB at Radio Shack, and then make a
> design from one of my projects at my website.

Where are you located?  If you're in the US, you can get inexpensive 
copper clad from abcfab on eBay (I'm still waiting for approval to 
give out his email address).  If you buy, tell him Dennis Louie 
referred you.  I might get a referral freeby...
 
> I will let you know how the etchant worked on the
> board, since I am not sure all of the residue was
> taken off.

If you clean the board with 98+% IAP, it should remove any oil that 
would cause problems.  You can't use drug store rubbing alcohol 
because it has too much water and will make things worse.

Are you trying laser transparencies with the hot removal?

Regards,
Dennis

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 21:26:40 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

>  You can't use drug store rubbing alcohol
>
> because it has too much water and will make things worse.
>
>
> Are you trying laser transparencies with the hot removal?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis


Why would the water be a problem? It is soluble in etchant and could be  
dried beforehand?

ST

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:59:06 +0100, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>  Anyone else feel like they're sitting at the round table lately?
>
>
> Alan


I was almost asking of which order he is with my last post ;-)

ST

Hi Stefan,

The water in rubbing alcohol slows down the rate of evaporation.  
That leaves residue from some of the stuff that was disolved in the 
alcohol or water on the board.

I know.  I've tried using rubbing alcohol as a flux remover.  It 
made a big mess.  98+% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol leaves a lot 
less.  I found it works best when I use compressed air to blow it 
off the board instead of letting it evaporate.  This might make 
rubbing alcohol work better, but I know the anhydrous stuff is 
better...

Regards,
Dennis
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 21:26:40 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:
> 
> >  You can't use drug store rubbing alcohol
> >
> > because it has too much water and will make things worse.
> >
> >
> > Are you trying laser transparencies with the hot removal?
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dennis
> 
> 
> Why would the water be a problem? It is soluble in etchant and 
could be  

> dried beforehand?
> 
> ST
>

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:09:31 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
>
> The water in rubbing alcohol slows down the rate of evaporation.
>
> That leaves residue from some of the stuff that was disolved in the
>
> alcohol or water on the board.
>
>
> I know.  I've tried using rubbing alcohol as a flux remover.  It
>
> made a big mess.  98+% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol leaves a lot
>
> less.  I found it works best when I use compressed air to blow it
>
> off the board instead of letting it evaporate.  This might make
>
> rubbing alcohol work better, but I know the anhydrous stuff is
>
> better...
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis


You'll have to explain that some more.

As i see it, in both cases the gunk is solved into the liquid, and a large  
percentage of the liquid with gunk is wiped off. What remains is some  
alcohol, some gunk, and more or less water, but the amount of gunk should  
be the same in both cases. The alcohol and water evaporartes, the gunk is  
left behind, now severely reduced in amount.

None of the gunk is removed through evaporation i'd say.

So i don't see how it works like you say.

I do believe there is some difference, i just don't understand how it  
works.

Besides, i use "cheap" IPA or denatured alcohol, also the cheap variety,  
for board cleaning with no problems, but that's besides the point i really  
want to know why you got better results with the clean stuff.

ST

Hi Stefan,

I find it difficult to wipe the board when components have been 
installed.  Whatever I use snags on the leads; which are very sharp 
by that time because they've been clipped.

I use an acid brush with bristles cut down to 3/16" or so, rub until 
the flux has disolved and let the cleaner dry (after I've let as 
much as possible run down the board which I hold at an angle).

With drug store IPA, a lot of residue is left.  Granted, if I wipe, 
I get better results.  But because of the leads, I can't wipe very 
well.  Anything I use snags on the leads.

With 98+% IPA, more of the residue disappears.  I don't know if more 
of it's running off the board or going into the air.  From 
observation (i.e. when I use the good IPA and don't have enough 
fluid to run off the edge of the board), I still get good cleaning.  
This isn't the case with rubbing alcohol.  I've read in many places 
that this is due to the water.  BTW, IPA is hygroscopic, so it 
absorbs water from the air.

When I use compressed air to blow off the board after scrubbing, I 
get even better results.  It might make rubbing alcohol work better, 
but I haven't tried.

BTW, this is the way we cleaned boards when I was a technician 
repairing computers the size of refrigerators.  Back then, we used 
TCE (now banned) and we used compressed air to blow cleaner off the 
board.  That's what prompted me to start using compressed air now...

I don't know how to explain it any better.  Maybe you should try the 
good stuff.  I've tried both and now all I use rubbing alcohol for 
is to remove sticker residue from EPROMs.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:09:31 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Stefan,
> >
> >
> > The water in rubbing alcohol slows down the rate of evaporation.
> >
> > That leaves residue from some of the stuff that was disolved in 
the
> >
> > alcohol or water on the board.
> >
> >
> > I know.  I've tried using rubbing alcohol as a flux remover.  It
> >
> > made a big mess.  98+% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol leaves a lot
> >
> > less.  I found it works best when I use compressed air to blow it
> >
> > off the board instead of letting it evaporate.  This might make
> >
> > rubbing alcohol work better, but I know the anhydrous stuff is
> >
> > better...
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dennis
> 
> 
> You'll have to explain that some more.
> 
> As i see it, in both cases the gunk is solved into the liquid, and 
a large  
> percentage of the liquid with gunk is wiped off. What remains is 
some  
> alcohol, some gunk, and more or less water, but the amount of gunk 
should  
> be the same in both cases. The alcohol and water evaporartes, the 
gunk is  
> left behind, now severely reduced in amount.
> 
> None of the gunk is removed through evaporation i'd say.
> 
> So i don't see how it works like you say.
> 
> I do believe there is some difference, i just don't understand how 
it  
> works.
> 
> Besides, i use "cheap" IPA or denatured alcohol, also the cheap 
variety,  
> for board cleaning with no problems, but that's besides the point 
i really  

> want to know why you got better results with the clean stuff.
> 
> ST
>

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:27:10 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> With 98+% IPA, more of the residue disappears.  I don't know if more
>
> of it's running off the board or going into the air.


I don't think flux will ever evaporate, no matter in what it is dissolved.

Maybe the water is doing something bad, i sure don't understand it. Flux  
will not solve in water, maybe that's causing the dusturbance.

What does the good IPA cost in comparision?

In general i noticed IPA seems to leave more residue than denatured  
alcohol.

Maybe there's other contaminants than water?

I do know what you mean by the snagging wires problem, that's why i rarely  
clean the flux off.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> I don't think flux will ever evaporate, no matter in what it is 
dissolved.

Well, I'm not a chemist (didn't pay much attention to chemistry - I 
was an EE major).  But I can tell you what I'm seeing.  If I clean 
flux from an area with 70% IPA and compare it to an area cleaned 
with 98% IPA, the 98% IPA area is cleaner; has less residue.  This 
is without allowing it to run off the edge of the board or blowing 
off the residue with compressed air.  I'm pretty sure some amount of 
flux will be carried off when a volatile solvent evaporates.

Did you ever think about what's going on when you smell some dog 
crap?  You're actually breathing molecules of dog crap...

> Maybe the water is doing something bad, i sure don't understand 
it. Flux  
> will not solve in water, maybe that's causing the dusturbance.

It's the water that's cauing the problem.  I talked to several 
Pharmacists when I was searching for a source of anhydrous IPA.  
They all said that rubbing alcohol was 70% IPA and 30% water.

> What does the good IPA cost in comparision?

98% IPA is costing me $4/pint vs. $1 for drug store variety rubbing 
alcohol.
 
> In general i noticed IPA seems to leave more residue than 
denatured  
> alcohol.

The more volatile the solvent, the less residue it will leave.  I 
attribute that to how quickly it evaporates.  But I'm not a chemist.
 
> I do know what you mean by the snagging wires problem, that's why 
i rarely  
> clean the flux off.

I'm somewhat of a Perfectionist.  I started working as a technician 
before I became an engineer.  I prided myself on quality of 
workmanship.  When I was an R&D Tech at HP Labs, I used to gold 
plate my prototypes and black annodize my heatsinks.  I got a lot of 
compliments on my work.  Back then, I used an endmill to layout my 
boards (a manual CNC if you will).  Even though I could have sent 
them out to have boards made.  Since I never did more than one of 
each design, I did it manually.  It was less work in the end.  I did 
more than a few calculations to determine the proper width for 50 
ohm transmission lines.

Once flux has done it's job of preparing materials for good solder 
joints, it needs to be removed or deactivated so it doesn't cause 
problems.  I was always taught to remove the flux.  Every single 
person who worked on the line where I built computers removed flux.  
But, I've seen commercial equipment that was hand soldered and no 
attempt was made to remove the flux.  Whenever I open up a piece of 
equipment and see that, I remove it; at least from the area where I 
make repairs.  Even if it didn't have the potential to cause 
problems, it still looks better without it.

If I were buying two similar products and one looked like there was 
more quality in workmanship, I'd probably buy the one that had 
better workmanship; even if it cost more.  Maybe that's just me.

Regards,
Dennis

I am not a chemist by background either, and did not
read the rest of this post, but I on occasion clean Si
wafers (already processed into devices) and x-ray
optics.  

flux, if not evaporable (at room temp) by itself,
won't generally evaporate, no matter what solvent
absorbs it.  

Cleaning means basically dissolving whatever
contaminants are on the part to be cleaned by some
chemical, and then getting the chemical/dissolved junk
off the part.  The nature of the contaminant is an
issue.  If it's oils, fingerprints, etc.. then use a
detergent.  I use alconox (powder detergent mixed with
DI water), and have never tried but suspect on pcbs
standard dishwasher detergent would work ok.  Then I
use acetone and then methanol.  

Getting off the solvent/dissolved junk is another
issue:  For the detergent, the detergent will dry
fast, but does remove most organics.  Blowing off the
detergent mix directly doesn't work so well(it also
evaporates fast), so after I've soaked something in
detergent, while the sample is still wet I dilute with
a bunch of DI water, then rinse several times more
with water.  After each water rinse, I blow off with
dry nitrogen.  For PCBs air is probably fine.  For
alcohols, it is important to blow off after every soak
so that the still wet alcohol is blown off the sample
with the contaminants it has absorbed before it has
much chance to evaporate, otherwise it leaves behind
whatever it was sucked up in the first place.   

Another thing that would help a lot is an ultrasonic
cleaner - www.harborfreight.com sells them cheap, but
I don't know the quality.
--- dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan
> Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> > I don't think flux will ever evaporate, no matter
> in what it is 
> dissolved.
> 
> Well, I'm not a chemist (didn't pay much attention
> to chemistry - I 
> was an EE major).  But I can tell you what I'm
> seeing.  If I clean 
> flux from an area with 70% IPA and compare it to an
> area cleaned 
> with 98% IPA, the 98% IPA area is cleaner; has less
> residue.  This 
> is without allowing it to run off the edge of the
> board or blowing 
> off the residue with compressed air.  I'm pretty
> sure some amount of 
> flux will be carried off when a volatile solvent
> evaporates.
> 
> Did you ever think about what's going on when you
> smell some dog 
> crap?  You're actually breathing molecules of dog
> crap...
> 
> > Maybe the water is doing something bad, i sure
> don't understand 
> it. Flux  
> > will not solve in water, maybe that's causing the
> dusturbance.
> 
> It's the water that's cauing the problem.  I talked
> to several 
> Pharmacists when I was searching for a source of
> anhydrous IPA.  
> They all said that rubbing alcohol was 70% IPA and
> 30% water.
> 
> > What does the good IPA cost in comparision?
> 
> 98% IPA is costing me $4/pint vs. $1 for drug store
> variety rubbing 
> alcohol.
>  
> > In general i noticed IPA seems to leave more
> residue than 
> denatured  
> > alcohol.
> 
> The more volatile the solvent, the less residue it
> will leave.  I 
> attribute that to how quickly it evaporates.  But
> I'm not a chemist.
>  
> > I do know what you mean by the snagging wires
> problem, that's why 
> i rarely  
> > clean the flux off.
> 
> I'm somewhat of a Perfectionist.  I started working
> as a technician 
> before I became an engineer.  I prided myself on
> quality of 
> workmanship.  When I was an R&D Tech at HP Labs, I
> used to gold 
> plate my prototypes and black annodize my heatsinks.
>  I got a lot of 
> compliments on my work.  Back then, I used an
> endmill to layout my 
> boards (a manual CNC if you will).  Even though I
> could have sent 
> them out to have boards made.  Since I never did
> more than one of 
> each design, I did it manually.  It was less work in
> the end.  I did 
> more than a few calculations to determine the proper
> width for 50 
> ohm transmission lines.
> 
> Once flux has done it's job of preparing materials
> for good solder 
> joints, it needs to be removed or deactivated so it
> doesn't cause 
> problems.  I was always taught to remove the flux. 
> Every single 
> person who worked on the line where I built
> computers removed flux.  
> But, I've seen commercial equipment that was hand
> soldered and no 
> attempt was made to remove the flux.  Whenever I
> open up a piece of 
> equipment and see that, I remove it; at least from
> the area where I 
> make repairs.  Even if it didn't have the potential
> to cause 
> problems, it still looks better without it.
> 
> If I were buying two similar products and one looked
> like there was 
> more quality in workmanship, I'd probably buy the
> one that had 
> better workmanship; even if it cost more.  Maybe
> that's just me.
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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Note that some 'Rubbing Alcohol' contains lanolin oil and other crap.  Not
recommended for cleaning anything except perhaps skin.
http://www.cvs
com/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/detail?prodid=278796&previousURI=/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/s
arch?ActiveCat=499^Query=rubbing+alcohol

GC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 2/9/2006 9:48:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
dl5012@... writes:

I'm  pretty sure some amount of flux will be carried off when a volatile 
solvent  evaporates.<<



Nope.  A rather immeasureable  amount.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:39:09 +0100, Gary Crowell <vcp@...> wrote:

>
>
>  Note that some 'Rubbing Alcohol' contains lanolin oil and other crap.   
> Not
>
> recommended for cleaning anything except perhaps skin.
>
> http://www.cvs
>
> com/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/detail?prodid=278796&previousURI=/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/s
>
> arch?ActiveCat=499^Query=rubbing+alcohol
>
>
> GC


While we are at that, if you use air to blow it away, it should be dry  
air, some compressors make pretty oily air.


Me, i use some toilet paper and either denatured alcohol or acetone to  
clean a board after a quick sanding.

ST

Hello my friend Sir Dennis,

Yes, I am now using HP Glossy Photo Paper for inkjet
printers.

I was so amazed on how well it all came out in the
end. I was hesitant to think that it would work...but
it did...and did well, my friend!

I am so impressed by the way it came out. I had no pin
holes, no breaks...and I guess no errors!!!

Yes, I will continue to make them using the paper. I
must of kept that iron on for a good two minutes, with
heavy pressure...and no smear at all.

I will be making a new project for my website, and
look forward in making my design in my Paint Program
and 'toner transferring it' to my PCB.

I am so glad that I bought that HP 1020...and it was
only $129.00! I bought at a right time!

It's my first laser printer. Is there anything else I
can do with it...being that I still have those laser
transparancies that I bought? I know you can come up
with something I could possibly use it for...maybe?

My next project is making a monophonic FM radio using
Philips' TDA7021 FM receiver chip and it's sister
chip...the TEA7050 Audio Amplifier.

Again, thank you very much for giving me fortitude to
go along and purchase the laser printer. If I would
have never gone through your procedure, I would have
never found mine! Again, my hat is off two times for
you!

...your friend, Patrick


--- dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> Hi Patrick,
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Cambre
> 
> <braincambre500@...> wrote:
> 
> > I will go ahead today, and get a brand new sheet
> of
> > double-sided PCB at Radio Shack, and then make a
> > design from one of my projects at my website.
> 
> Where are you located?  If you're in the US, you can
> get inexpensive 
> copper clad from abcfab on eBay (I'm still waiting
> for approval to 
> give out his email address).  If you buy, tell him
> Dennis Louie 
> referred you.  I might get a referral freeby...
>  
> > I will let you know how the etchant worked on the
> > board, since I am not sure all of the residue was
> > taken off.
> 
> If you clean the board with 98+% IAP, it should
> remove any oil that 
> would cause problems.  You can't use drug store
> rubbing alcohol 
> because it has too much water and will make things
> worse.
> 
> Are you trying laser transparencies with the hot
> removal?
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:59:37 +0100, Patrick Cambre  
<braincambre500@...> wrote:


> Yes, I am now using HP Glossy Photo Paper for inkjet
> printers.
> I was so amazed on how well it all came out in the
> end. I was hesitant to think that it would work...but
> it did...and did well, my friend!

Is this the same HP paper as praised in the database section?
I tried to find it but couldn't - of course, the part number would be  
different for A4 sizes.

I would like to try this paper, which part number does your paper have?

> It's my first laser printer. Is there anything else I
> can do with it...being that I still have those laser
> transparancies that I bought? I know you can come up
> with something I could possibly use it for...maybe?

Well, you can print component legend the same was as resist, and you can  
transfer on metal or heat resistant front panels. You can also make custom  
scales for analog meters and stuff, those look best on glossy paper.

I've heard some people also use a laser printer to print out stuff on  
paper, like office stuff, but that's really boring ;-)




I think my current printer (lexmark M412) does not have as much toner  
density as the HP IIID had. i dunno if there is a way to increase it  
(above what you can set in the driver). I get pinholes and some  
through-etching on ground planes, which i would like to get rid of. Maybe  
i should get a new printer...

ST

That CVS link is for a blend with oil of wintergreen
annd other chemicals for use as a skin liniment.

Look for regular "unflavored" rubbing alcohol on the
CVS site. There is both the 70% and the 91% flavors.

The 91% is just alcohol and water.

Anhydrous isopropanol (no water) is very hydroscopic
and will absorb water from the air.


TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- Gary Crowell <vcp@...> wrote:

>  
>  Note that some 'Rubbing Alcohol' contains lanolin
> oil and other crap.  Not
> recommended for cleaning anything except perhaps
> skin.
> http://www.cvs
>
com/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/detail?prodid=278796&previousURI=/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/s
> arch?ActiveCat=499^Query=rubbing+alcohol
> 
> GC
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Patrick;

We would love to hear about that FM radio project over in the FMTuners
group here at Yahoo.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FMtuners/

Bob
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Cambre 

> My next project is making a monophonic FM radio using
> Philips' TDA7021 FM receiver chip and it's sister
> chip...the TEA7050 Audio Amplifier.

Hi,

Thanks for all that info.  Apparently the 98% IPA is just moving the 
flux around, but the board appeared significantly cleaner than when I 
used rubbing alcohol.

Do you know of any less labor intensive cleaning?  I'd like to be able 
to clean the boards at my workbench and not have multiple cleaning 
steps.  Though I will try washing a board with detergent after 
cleaning with anhydrous IPA.

I'm trying to use the least dangerous chemicals as possible.  I use 
acetone, but sparingly.

Regards,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "dl5012" <dl5012@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:11 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hello Sir Dennis...


> Hi,
>
> Thanks for all that info.  Apparently the 98% IPA is just moving the
> flux around, but the board appeared significantly cleaner than when I
> used rubbing alcohol.
>
> Do you know of any less labor intensive cleaning?  I'd like to be able
> to clean the boards at my workbench and not have multiple cleaning
> steps.  Though I will try washing a board with detergent after
> cleaning with anhydrous IPA.
>
> I'm trying to use the least dangerous chemicals as possible.  I use
> acetone, but sparingly.

Use no-clean flux solder. The only problem with it is that the flux is less 
active than rosin flux making it difficult to get a decent joint on 
home-made PCBs. It works fine with tinned boards. It does leave a slight 
residue but that is much easier to remove than rosin flux, if you want 
completely clean boards.

Leon

Professional plumbers use just a wet rag to wipe flux
off of freshly soldered piping, and ultrasound is
actually quite powerful.  There is a push in europe
right now to clean all wafers with just steam.  You
might try buying one of those 20 dollar harborfreight
ultrasonic cleaners, use water as your fluid, and let
them sit in the ultrasound for a half hour or so, if
you can stand sitting next to that annoying buzzing
for that long at your workbench.  You might stick all
your boards in once for a half hour, then drain the
water out and do it one more time with fresh water,
but that is a lot less labor than any manual cleaning
would be.

--- Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "dl5012" <dl5012@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 5:11 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hello Sir Dennis...
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thanks for all that info.  Apparently the 98% IPA
> is just moving the
> > flux around, but the board appeared significantly
> cleaner than when I
> > used rubbing alcohol.
> >
> > Do you know of any less labor intensive cleaning? 
> I'd like to be able
> > to clean the boards at my workbench and not have
> multiple cleaning
> > steps.  Though I will try washing a board with
> detergent after
> > cleaning with anhydrous IPA.
> >
> > I'm trying to use the least dangerous chemicals as
> possible.  I use
> > acetone, but sparingly.
> 
> Use no-clean flux solder. The only problem with it
> is that the flux is less 
> active than rosin flux making it difficult to get a
> decent joint on 
> home-made PCBs. It works fine with tinned boards. It
> does leave a slight 
> residue but that is much easier to remove than rosin
> flux, if you want 
> completely clean boards.
> 
> Leon 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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> I'm trying to use the least dangerous chemicals as possible. 

Assuming this is about flux removal.....I've been using mineral 
spirits for over 35 years. Yet to find anything better and I have just 
about all the alcohols (including methanol), acetone, MEK, Xylene, 
lacquer thinner, you name it at my disposal. Solvents that evaporate 
quickly are not the best for oily, sticky deposits. Furthermore, the 
more powerful solvents attack plastic. Even denatured alchol attacks 
plastic depening on the denaturing agent (aka poison) used.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:
>

Hello Sir Stefan,

Yes, the paper I have was bought at Wal-Mart a few
months ago. It has a picture on the front. The picture
is a small girl with her hands around the neck of a
brown and white calf.

The info on the box is this...

Inkjet/Glassy/8.5" X 11"/8.5 mil/175g/m2 47lb/25
sheets

The name of the paper on top of the picture says...

HP Photo Paper

A caption under the picture of the girl says...

   Glossy photo paper with an instant dry finish

On the back of the box, in the lower right hand
corner, there is area with this...

                   C1846A
                copyright 2004
                Hewlett-Packard
                Development Company,L.P.

Other then that, I do not see a part number, other
then the caption in the lower right hand corner. It
may be C1846A.

In ref to your density...I have tried and put my paper
back into the printer, to have the toner apply another
coat on top of the first....and it came out perfect.
So then I did it three more time...a total of five
times through the printer. Not bad at all, if you need
that extra density on your prints. Give that a try.

But since I have been using the paper, I only run the
paper through the printer once...and get unbeleable
results! Now I can really get down, and do some great
circuit drawing in the Paint Program on Windows 98.

If you are familar with the Paint Program, the program
has five different settings for making a 'dot'. I used
the small setting, and that single dot came out...on
the PCB...just as it showed up on my print. Now that's
getting down right good!

Yes, if you want to see a picture of what the box
looks like...let me know...and I will put it out on my
website for you to see what it looks like.

But I would assume that your printer can still be
used...trying the 'run through again' process in the
printer.

When it came time for the iron, I pressed real hard
for 30 seconds...and it came out perfect...no smears
at all...no pin-holes at all...

So then I tried for 2 minutes, just to see what would
happened...and no different then ther 30 second. No
smears appeared...and that really impressed me.



        
--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:59:37 +0100, Patrick Cambre  
> <braincambre500@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I am now using HP Glossy Photo Paper for
> inkjet
> > printers.
> > I was so amazed on how well it all came out in the
> > end. I was hesitant to think that it would
> work...but
> > it did...and did well, my friend!
> 
> Is this the same HP paper as praised in the database
> section?
> I tried to find it but couldn't - of course, the
> part number would be  
> different for A4 sizes.
> 
> I would like to try this paper, which part number
> does your paper have?
> 
> > It's my first laser printer. Is there anything
> else I
> > can do with it...being that I still have those
> laser
> > transparancies that I bought? I know you can come
> up
> > with something I could possibly use it
> for...maybe?
> 
> Well, you can print component legend the same was as
> resist, and you can  
> transfer on metal or heat resistant front panels.
> You can also make custom  
> scales for analog meters and stuff, those look best
> on glossy paper.
> 
> I've heard some people also use a laser printer to
> print out stuff on  
> paper, like office stuff, but that's really boring
> ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think my current printer (lexmark M412) does not
> have as much toner  
> density as the HP IIID had. i dunno if there is a
> way to increase it  
> (above what you can set in the driver). I get
> pinholes and some  
> through-etching on ground planes, which i would like
> to get rid of. Maybe  
> i should get a new printer...
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post
> them here:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 


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Hello Sir Bob,

Yes, I will begin to work on that project as of
today...but I also have, on my website, two other FM
receiver...you may want to have a look at them. Or
possibly you want to see how my method of toner
transfer is working...with my new PCB I will make with
the new project. Do let me know.

My website is at...

         http://braincambre500.freeservers.com

There is a project I call the 'Radio Shack Special.
Look for that at the homepage.

There is another called Philips TEA5711T. Look for
that also.

...your friend, Patrick

--- newaag <newaag@...> wrote:

> Hi Patrick;
> 
> We would love to hear about that FM radio project
> over in the FMTuners
> group here at Yahoo.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FMtuners/
> 
> Bob
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Cambre
> 
> > My next project is making a monophonic FM radio
> using
> > Philips' TDA7021 FM receiver chip and it's sister
> > chip...the TEA7050 Audio Amplifier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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Patrick,

since i was not knighted (yet ;-) ) you might do away with the Sir if you  
want ;-)

The paper is this one, right?
<http://www.fjaproducts.com/common/assets/DaisyTek/ProdStandard/C1846A.JPG>

It has 175g/m2, that is very heavy. With my printer this might not get  
enough toner.
I don't think the registration of my printer is good enough to print  
mutiple times.


I'm sure i can't get this HP paper here, because they will not sell the  
letter sized version. It is quite possible the very same paper is sold  
here in A4 but the part number will be different and it is hard to be  
certain if it is the same paper. I'll look again next time i'm in a store  
with lots of paper.

How hard was this paper to soak off?

I read in the database section - i quote:

**********
HP Q2419A
Incredible - this paper worked exactly how I always imagined toner  
transfer to work. Passed thru the laminator a few times (5 to be safe),  
quick cold water rinse, then left in warm water. 5-10 minutes later, the  
paper was only held down by the tape I had used to secure it.
**********
If anyone has this paper, i would be very grateful for a sheet or two per  
mail, i will be happy to refund your cost via paypal.

I'm always looking for a better paper than i already have, that would need  
to be released very easily. I can do that with silicone paper, but the  
problem is i get pinholes and through-etching with that so i can only use  
it for component legend. I don't know why that is.


About paint, it might be OK for very simple PCBs, but you will soon wish  
to use a software made for PCB layout, because it makes things much easier  
as circuits get complicated.


ST


On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 23:10:17 +0100, Patrick Cambre  
<braincambre500@...> wrote:

> Hello Sir Stefan,
>
> Yes, the paper I have was bought at Wal-Mart a few
> months ago. It has a picture on the front. The picture
> is a small girl with her hands around the neck of a
> brown and white calf.
>
> The info on the box is this...
>
> Inkjet/Glassy/8.5" X 11"/8.5 mil/175g/m2 47lb/25
> sheets
>
> The name of the paper on top of the picture says...
>
> HP Photo Paper
>
> A caption under the picture of the girl says...
>
>    Glossy photo paper with an instant dry finish
>
> On the back of the box, in the lower right hand
> corner, there is area with this...
>
>                    C1846A
>                 copyright 2004
>                 Hewlett-Packard
>                 Development Company,L.P.
>
> Other then that, I do not see a part number, other
> then the caption in the lower right hand corner. It
> may be C1846A.
>
> In ref to your density...I have tried and put my paper
> back into the printer, to have the toner apply another
> coat on top of the first....and it came out perfect.
> So then I did it three more time...a total of five
> times through the printer. Not bad at all, if you need
> that extra density on your prints. Give that a try.
>
> But since I have been using the paper, I only run the
> paper through the printer once...and get unbeleable
> results! Now I can really get down, and do some great
> circuit drawing in the Paint Program on Windows 98.
>
> If you are familar with the Paint Program, the program
> has five different settings for making a 'dot'. I used
> the small setting, and that single dot came out...on
> the PCB...just as it showed up on my print. Now that's
> getting down right good!
>
> Yes, if you want to see a picture of what the box
> looks like...let me know...and I will put it out on my
> website for you to see what it looks like.
>
> But I would assume that your printer can still be
> used...trying the 'run through again' process in the
> printer.
>
> When it came time for the iron, I pressed real hard
> for 30 seconds...and it came out perfect...no smears
> at all...no pin-holes at all...
>
> So then I tried for 2 minutes, just to see what would
> happened...and no different then ther 30 second. No
> smears appeared...and that really impressed me.
>

> since i was not knighted (yet ;-) )

Could have fooled me....Thought you were Sir Nosealot.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

Hello Stefan,

Yes, that is right papaer. That is exactly what I am
using.

I just made a another perfect PCB...no pinholes, no
lifting-up of the toner...and besides that, I can't
even fingernail stratch it off. This is incredible. It
is really embeeded on the PCB.

The only thing left is the residue. (Yes, Stefan, I
put it in regular tap water in my sink, and then after
a minute or so...I begin to rub it of with the
underneath of my fingers...I do not let my fingernails
strach it...although I had tried to scratch it...once
it was dry...and I was amazed how that toner is a
'rebel' to come off!) I am wondering if anyone knows
of a certain 'chemical' that would eat it up!

I don't even have to pass it through the paper two
times. One time works great...although I have an
obtion with  my HP1020 printer program, that
says...heavy. I am only using a black toner cartridge
in my printer...as it came like that, when I bought
it.

So I print as 'heavy' at I am still amazed. I keep the
iron on it around one minute. (I put a piece of
regular paper in between the inkjet paper and my iron.
Then put about 5 or so sheets of paper, under the PCB,
to keep my table from getting to hot.) Then I just
keep heavy pressure on it, and about every 5 seconds
or so...I turn the iron around into a different
position...to make sure every part of the PCB has
gotten sufficient pressure.

That's it, my friend!       

                            ...your friend, Patrick

--- Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Patrick,
> 
> since i was not knighted (yet ;-) ) you might do
> away with the Sir if you  
> want ;-)
> 
> The paper is this one, right?
>
<http://www.fjaproducts.com/common/assets/DaisyTek/ProdStandard/C1846A.JPG>
> 
> It has 175g/m2, that is very heavy. With my printer
> this might not get  
> enough toner.
> I don't think the registration of my printer is good
> enough to print  
> mutiple times.
> 
> 
> I'm sure i can't get this HP paper here, because
> they will not sell the  
> letter sized version. It is quite possible the very
> same paper is sold  
> here in A4 but the part number will be different and
> it is hard to be  
> certain if it is the same paper. I'll look again
> next time i'm in a store  
> with lots of paper.
> 
> How hard was this paper to soak off?
> 
> I read in the database section - i quote:
> 
> **********
> HP Q2419A
> Incredible - this paper worked exactly how I always
> imagined toner  
> transfer to work. Passed thru the laminator a few
> times (5 to be safe),  
> quick cold water rinse, then left in warm water.
> 5-10 minutes later, the  
> paper was only held down by the tape I had used to
> secure it.
> **********
> If anyone has this paper, i would be very grateful
> for a sheet or two per  
> mail, i will be happy to refund your cost via
> paypal.
> 
> I'm always looking for a better paper than i already
> have, that would need  
> to be released very easily. I can do that with
> silicone paper, but the  
> problem is i get pinholes and through-etching with
> that so i can only use  
> it for component legend. I don't know why that is.
> 
> 
> About paint, it might be OK for very simple PCBs,
> but you will soon wish  
> to use a software made for PCB layout, because it
> makes things much easier  
> as circuits get complicated.
> 
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 23:10:17 +0100, Patrick Cambre  
> <braincambre500@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Sir Stefan,
> >
> > Yes, the paper I have was bought at Wal-Mart a few
> > months ago. It has a picture on the front. The
> picture
> > is a small girl with her hands around the neck of
> a
> > brown and white calf.
> >
> > The info on the box is this...
> >
> > Inkjet/Glassy/8.5" X 11"/8.5 mil/175g/m2 47lb/25
> > sheets
> >
> > The name of the paper on top of the picture
> says...
> >
> > HP Photo Paper
> >
> > A caption under the picture of the girl says...
> >
> >    Glossy photo paper with an instant dry finish
> >
> > On the back of the box, in the lower right hand
> > corner, there is area with this...
> >
> >                    C1846A
> >                 copyright 2004
> >                 Hewlett-Packard
> >                 Development Company,L.P.
> >
> > Other then that, I do not see a part number, other
> > then the caption in the lower right hand corner.
> It
> > may be C1846A.
> >
> > In ref to your density...I have tried and put my
> paper
> > back into the printer, to have the toner apply
> another
> > coat on top of the first....and it came out
> perfect.
> > So then I did it three more time...a total of five
> > times through the printer. Not bad at all, if you
> need
> > that extra density on your prints. Give that a
> try.
> >
> > But since I have been using the paper, I only run
> the
> > paper through the printer once...and get
> unbeleable
> > results! Now I can really get down, and do some
> great
> > circuit drawing in the Paint Program on Windows
> 98.
> >
> > If you are familar with the Paint Program, the
> program
> > has five different settings for making a 'dot'. I
> used
> > the small setting, and that single dot came
> out...on
> > the PCB...just as it showed up on my print. Now
> that's
> > getting down right good!
> >
> > Yes, if you want to see a picture of what the box
> > looks like...let me know...and I will put it out
> on my
> > website for you to see what it looks like.
> >
> > But I would assume that your printer can still be
> > used...trying the 'run through again' process in
> the
> > printer.
> >
> > When it came time for the iron, I pressed real
> hard
> > for 30 seconds...and it came out perfect...no
> smears
> > at all...no pin-holes at all...
> >
> > So then I tried for 2 minutes, just to see what
> would
> > happened...and no different then ther 30 second.
> No
> > smears appeared...and that really impressed me.
> >
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post
> them here:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>     Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 


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