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Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-09 by alan00463

Next, I need to get a conductive substance to plate the copper board
with, after etching.     Either immersion or wipe-on or electroplated.
 I am guessing wipe-on Ag powder would be the easiest.   

However, I must use *cheapest* rather than easiest or best.

I have 12 V gel cells, low-amperage DC wall warts, a low-amperage DC
dial-a-voltage regulator, a low-amperage +- 12 VDC power supply, and a
24VDC-7A power supply, in addition to regular 115VAC mains.

From surfing the web, I see that I can plate Cu with tin, silver, or
nickel.   Polyurethane is another "easy" option for a
non-chemically-bonded copper protectant, I guess.

So what based on your experience is the cheapest material that will do
a good job?

Alan

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-09 by idaho_huckleberry

Be very carefull with Ag, Silver loves to form dendrites if there is 
any moisture present (humidity or otherwise).

Dave Miller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "alan00463" <alan00463@y...> 
wrote:
>
> Next, I need to get a conductive substance to plate the copper board
> with, after etching.     Either immersion or wipe-on or 
electroplated.
>  I am guessing wipe-on Ag powder would be the easiest.   
> 
> However, I must use *cheapest* rather than easiest or best.
> 
> I have 12 V gel cells, low-amperage DC wall warts, a low-amperage DC
> dial-a-voltage regulator, a low-amperage +- 12 VDC power supply, 
and a
> 24VDC-7A power supply, in addition to regular 115VAC mains.
> 
> From surfing the web, I see that I can plate Cu with tin, silver, or
> nickel.   Polyurethane is another "easy" option for a
> non-chemically-bonded copper protectant, I guess.
> 
> So what based on your experience is the cheapest material that will 
do
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> a good job?
> 
> Alan
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-09 by guja

Electroplating requires negative artwork (photo or tt) or interconnected tracks.

alan00463 <alan00463@...> wrote:  Next, I need to get a conductive substance to plate the copper board
with, after etching.     Either immersion or wipe-on or electroplated.


		
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Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-09 by Stefan Trethan

the cheapest is solder paste, probably.
cool amp siver is expensive, but a little goes a long way.


ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 16:16:31 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@...> wrote:

> Next, I need to get a conductive substance to plate the copper board
>
> with, after etching.     Either immersion or wipe-on or electroplated.
>
>  I am guessing wipe-on Ag powder would be the easiest.
>
>
> However, I must use *cheapest* rather than easiest or best.
>
>
> I have 12 V gel cells, low-amperage DC wall warts, a low-amperage DC
>
> dial-a-voltage regulator, a low-amperage +- 12 VDC power supply, and a
>
> 24VDC-7A power supply, in addition to regular 115VAC mains.
>
>
> From surfing the web, I see that I can plate Cu with tin, silver, or
>
> nickel.   Polyurethane is another "easy" option for a
>
> non-chemically-bonded copper protectant, I guess.
>
>
> So what based on your experience is the cheapest material that will do
>
> a good job?
>
>
> Alan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-09 by Adam Seychell

Sounds kind of odd to want to make an entire pre etched PCB, back to 
being conductive over its entire surface. Why not skip the etching step 
altogether so you have fully copper coated fiber glass material ?

Your question does not read as wanting to selectively coat the copper 
tracks with a conductive material since copper is already quite conductive.

You post is also contradictory by mentioning the use of polyurethane as 
being an option, becuase this is not a electrically conductive.

Maybe your better to explain what your goal is.

Adam



alan00463 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Next, I need to get a conductive substance to plate the copper board
> with, after etching.     Either immersion or wipe-on or electroplated.
>  I am guessing wipe-on Ag powder would be the easiest.   
> 
> However, I must use *cheapest* rather than easiest or best.
> 
> I have 12 V gel cells, low-amperage DC wall warts, a low-amperage DC
> dial-a-voltage regulator, a low-amperage +- 12 VDC power supply, and a
> 24VDC-7A power supply, in addition to regular 115VAC mains.
> 
>>From surfing the web, I see that I can plate Cu with tin, silver, or
> nickel.   Polyurethane is another "easy" option for a
> non-chemically-bonded copper protectant, I guess.
> 
> So what based on your experience is the cheapest material that will do
> a good job?
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
>

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-09 by alan00463

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...>
wrote:
>
> Sounds kind of odd to want to make an entire pre etched PCB, back to 
> being conductive over its entire surface. Why not skip the etching
step altogether so you have fully copper coated fiber glass material ?
> 
> Your question does not read as wanting to selectively coat the
copper tracks with a conductive material since copper is already quite
conductive.
> 
> You post is also contradictory by mentioning the use of polyurethane
as being an option, becuase this is not a electrically conductive.
 
> Maybe your better to explain what your goal is.

Sure, Adam.   I want to etch the copper artwork *before* I have all
the components to populate the board with.   So that is why I wanted
some substance to cover the copper traces immediately after etching so
they don't become oxidized.    I was thinking it would be easier to
solder the (through-hole) components in place if I used an
electrically conductive material.   Or should I use something I can
later clean off the copper traces with solder flux when ready to
populate the board?

Anyway, I did some research this afternoon and discovered that of the
conductive substances nickel, tin, lead, and silver.
Nickel is a poor conductor of electricity.
Lead is a poison as well as a poor conductor.
Tin is also a poor conductor of electricity.
That leaves silver, which is an excellent conductor.    Stefan, you
are right as usual.   Thanks, Stefan for taking time to answer me.

And yes, I realize it would have been necessary to interconnect all
the copper traces in order to electroplate a metal onto them.   That's
an extra step that will be nice to avoid.

Thanks to all who answered,
Alan

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-09 by kilocycles

Alan, I have the <$20 nickel plating kit from Caswell Plating (using
my own power supply).  I haven't tried soldering to it, though.
Ted KX4OM

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "alan00463" <alan00463@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Next, I need to get a conductive substance to plate the copper board
> with, after etching.     Either immersion or wipe-on or electroplated.
>  I am guessing wipe-on Ag powder would be the easiest.   
> 
> However, I must use *cheapest* rather than easiest or best.
> 
> I have 12 V gel cells, low-amperage DC wall warts, a low-amperage DC
> dial-a-voltage regulator, a low-amperage +- 12 VDC power supply, and a
> 24VDC-7A power supply, in addition to regular 115VAC mains.
> 
> From surfing the web, I see that I can plate Cu with tin, silver, or
> nickel.   Polyurethane is another "easy" option for a
> non-chemically-bonded copper protectant, I guess.
> 
> So what based on your experience is the cheapest material that will do
> a good job?
> 
> Alan
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-10 by Adam Seychell

alan00463 wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...>
> wrote:
> 
>>Sounds kind of odd to want to make an entire pre etched PCB, back to 
>>being conductive over its entire surface. Why not skip the etching
> 
> step altogether so you have fully copper coated fiber glass material ?
> 
>>Your question does not read as wanting to selectively coat the
> 
> copper tracks with a conductive material since copper is already quite
> conductive.
> 
>>You post is also contradictory by mentioning the use of polyurethane
> 
> as being an option, becuase this is not a electrically conductive.
>  
> 
>>Maybe your better to explain what your goal is.
> 
> 
> Sure, Adam.   I want to etch the copper artwork *before* I have all
> the components to populate the board with.   So that is why I wanted
> some substance to cover the copper traces immediately after etching so
> they don't become oxidized.    I was thinking it would be easier to
> solder the (through-hole) components in place if I used an
> electrically conductive material.   Or should I use something I can
> later clean off the copper traces with solder flux when ready to
> populate the board?
> 
> Anyway, I did some research this afternoon and discovered that of the
> conductive substances nickel, tin, lead, and silver.
> Nickel is a poor conductor of electricity.
> Lead is a poison as well as a poor conductor.
> Tin is also a poor conductor of electricity.
> That leaves silver, which is an excellent conductor.    Stefan, you
> are right as usual.   Thanks, Stefan for taking time to answer me.
> 
> And yes, I realize it would have been necessary to interconnect all
> the copper traces in order to electroplate a metal onto them.   That's
> an extra step that will be nice to avoid.
> 
> Thanks to all who answered,
> Alan
> 

Plating the copper traces with another metal would cause no measurable 
increase in resistance, between an connection interface consisting of 
solder/nickel/copper and that of solder/copper. Obviously you know that 
solder has 12? times more resistance than copper!
Protective plating finishes are typically no more than a few microns 
thick. Would you scrape of the tin from tin plated copper wires of 
resistor and IC leads in order to decrease resistance ?

There are a few ways to avoid copper oxides. Simplest is to use a common 
PCB lacquer that is sprayed on. this lacquer can be soldered through. I 
use it all the time, and think its great.

Another approach is to tin plate the copper, with an electroless tin 
formula, but these are expensive.
There is also electroless nickel formulations but difficult to get hold 
of and probably even more difficult to make yourself. I've never made 
any electroless solutions. Electroless plating is a solution that 
deposits metal onto a metal without applying external electricity. 
Electroless plating has ability to plate on its own kind so the metal 
can build up continuously provided there is a supply of fresh metal 
ions. Search google for electroless

You really don't have a choice to use anything else other than 
electroless plating since it will be unpractical to connect each copper 
trace to a power supply for a electrolytic plating bath. Electrolytic 
plating is inherently simpler, cheaper and more forgiving.

Adam

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-10 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:09:31 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@...> wrote:

> Sure, Adam.   I want to etch the copper artwork *before* I have all
>
> the components to populate the board with.   So that is why I wanted
>
> some substance to cover the copper traces immediately after etching so
>
> they don't become oxidized.    I was thinking it would be easier to
>
> solder the (through-hole) components in place if I used an
>
> electrically conductive material.   Or should I use something I can
>
> later clean off the copper traces with solder flux when ready to
>
> populate the board?


There's a much easier option.
Buy a can of solder laquer spray. It is a laquer made mostly of colophony  
resin and alcohol.
It takes a while to dry, but overnight it is hard and dry to the touch.

This _is_ flux, so soldering is easy even after a long time.
Unless you are dealing with extremely high impedance circuits you can  
leave it on for protection even after soldering.


Much quicker than any plating, cheaper, and easier to solder. I use it all  
the time.


And yes you are right, conductivity of plating can be important. For  
example with high frequency the plating can actually increase resistance  
of a track because skin effect drives half the current out into it. At low  
frequency this does not happen.

ST

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-10 by alan00463

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:09:31 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@y...> wrote:
> 
> > Sure, Adam.   I want to etch the copper artwork *before* I have all
> >
> > the components to populate the board with.   So that is why I wanted
> >
> > some substance to cover the copper traces immediately after etching so
> >
> > they don't become oxidized.    I was thinking it would be easier to
> >
> > solder the (through-hole) components in place if I used an
> >
> > electrically conductive material.   Or should I use something I can
> >
> > later clean off the copper traces with solder flux when ready to
> >
> > populate the board?
> 
> 
> There's a much easier option.
> Buy a can of solder laquer spray. It is a laquer made mostly of
colophony  
> resin and alcohol.
> It takes a while to dry, but overnight it is hard and dry to the touch.
> 
> This _is_ flux, so soldering is easy even after a long time.
> Unless you are dealing with extremely high impedance circuits you can  
> leave it on for protection even after soldering.
> 
> 
> Much quicker than any plating, cheaper, and easier to solder. I use
it all  
> the time.
> 
> 
> And yes you are right, conductivity of plating can be important. For  
> example with high frequency the plating can actually increase
resistance  
> of a track because skin effect drives half the current out into it.
At low  
> frequency this does not happen.
> 
> ST

Adam, you're right--I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING.    That's probably
why I sounded contradictory and confusing.    That's why this newbie
appreciates your comments and helpful advice.

Stefan, good note about the skin effect with high frequency signals!
I was thinking more in the line of transparency--i.e., how do I know
if the coating has been removed if it is transparent?   I needed your
comments based on experience.  I am grateful for your sharing your
knowledge.  Thank you.

I will look for "solder lacquer spray".   Nearly all the websites that
mention are in the U.K.   Maybe it's called something different in the
U.S.A.     I am wondering if this is the same stuff you would buy in a
paint store in the U.S.A. for protecting wood?    Or is it something
different?   I couldn't find it in Mouser, Digikey, or JameCo
catalogs, even looking under the generic heading "chemicals".   

The closest I found was "silicone  conformal coating" and "urethane
conformal coating".   These are anti-fungal, anti-moisture coatings
for protecting the circuitry from harsh environments.   Probably not
what you had in mind.

Stefan, the "solder lacquer spray" you use is transparent, is it not?
Does acetone dissolve it once it has hardened?   Can you see where it
has been removed vs. where it remains on the copper?

I will try to find this lacquer before I give up and buy the silver
electroless plating powder.

Later,
Alan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Stefan Trethan

Alan,

as i said it is mainly colophony resin (the same flux used in many solder  
wires) and alcohol.
I know people who simply mix solid chunks of colophony resin with  
methylated spirits (ethanol alcohol) and apply it with a paintbrush. It  
works the same as my spray, but since a 400ml can costs only 8 eur here in  
Austria i simply buy the spray.

Colophony solves in alcohol, acetone, paint thinner, etc.. But i recommend  
methylated spirits (ethanol) since acetone gives a ugly dull finish.

In the past natural resins like colophony were widely used in lacquers for  
wood protection and stuff, but not any more.

The product i use is here:
<http://www.crcind.com/csp/web/ProdDisp.csp?lng=3&country=ALL&product=FLUX%20SK%2010&brand=KOC>

But as said you can just make your own if you can't get it. colophony  
resin should be readily available. Get as light a color as you can,
while you won't see it in the thin layer on the PCB it's still better.




While looking for the solder lacquer i found a very interesting thing:
<http://www.buerklin.com/gruppene/KapL/L177100.asp?l=e>

I've spend many, hours probably, thinking about using a metal brush that  
is heated in some way, but never actually got around to trying it. Seems  
it's time now. I reckon those are brass or steel bristles. Maybe even  
stranded wire or desolder braid will work. easy to build.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:53:52 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@...> wrote:

> I will look for "solder lacquer spray".   Nearly all the websites that
>
> mention are in the U.K.   Maybe it's called something different in the
>
> U.S.A.     I am wondering if this is the same stuff you would buy in a
>
> paint store in the U.S.A. for protecting wood?    Or is it something
>
> different?   I couldn't find it in Mouser, Digikey, or JameCo
>
> catalogs, even looking under the generic heading "chemicals".
>
>
> The closest I found was "silicone  conformal coating" and "urethane
>
> conformal coating".   These are anti-fungal, anti-moisture coatings
>
> for protecting the circuitry from harsh environments.   Probably not
>
> what you had in mind.
>
>
> Stefan, the "solder lacquer spray" you use is transparent, is it not?
>
> Does acetone dissolve it once it has hardened?   Can you see where it
>
> has been removed vs. where it remains on the copper?

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by dyadic_cyclone

Does colophony really create a hard coating similar to laquer? I know
flux removers are commonly available, and I have used them after using
 "rosin core" solder on small boards, because, if I don't clean off
the flux residue, the board will be sticky and collect dust, as I
learned with a small SMT pcb I made not long ago.

Is colophony different from common "rosin"?   Or is there something
about adding a solvent that leaves the flux harder after the solvent
outgasses than when it is when the flux it is in the core of flexible
solder?

Thanks,
Paul

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> 
> as i said it is mainly colophony resin (the same flux used in many
solder  
> wires) and alcohol.
> I know people who simply mix solid chunks of colophony resin with  
> methylated spirits (ethanol alcohol) and apply it with a paintbrush.
It  
> works the same as my spray, but since a 400ml can costs only 8 eur
here in  
> Austria i simply buy the spray.
> 
> Colophony solves in alcohol, acetone, paint thinner, etc.. But i
recommend  
> methylated spirits (ethanol) since acetone gives a ugly dull finish.
> 
> In the past natural resins like colophony were widely used in
lacquers for  
> wood protection and stuff, but not any more.
> 
> The product i use is here:
>
<http://www.crcind.com/csp/web/ProdDisp.csp?lng=3&country=ALL&product=FLUX%20SK%2010&brand=KOC>
> 
> But as said you can just make your own if you can't get it. colophony  
> resin should be readily available. Get as light a color as you can,
> while you won't see it in the thin layer on the PCB it's still better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While looking for the solder lacquer i found a very interesting thing:
> <http://www.buerklin.com/gruppene/KapL/L177100.asp?l=e>
> 
> I've spend many, hours probably, thinking about using a metal brush
that  
> is heated in some way, but never actually got around to trying it.
Seems  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> it's time now. I reckon those are brass or steel bristles. Maybe even  
> stranded wire or desolder braid will work. easy to build.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:53:52 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@y...> wrote:
> 
> > I will look for "solder lacquer spray".   Nearly all the websites that
> >
> > mention are in the U.K.   Maybe it's called something different in the
> >
> > U.S.A.     I am wondering if this is the same stuff you would buy in a
> >
> > paint store in the U.S.A. for protecting wood?    Or is it something
> >
> > different?   I couldn't find it in Mouser, Digikey, or JameCo
> >
> > catalogs, even looking under the generic heading "chemicals".
> >
> >
> > The closest I found was "silicone  conformal coating" and "urethane
> >
> > conformal coating".   These are anti-fungal, anti-moisture coatings
> >
> > for protecting the circuitry from harsh environments.   Probably not
> >
> > what you had in mind.
> >
> >
> > Stefan, the "solder lacquer spray" you use is transparent, is it not?
> >
> > Does acetone dissolve it once it has hardened?   Can you see where it
> >
> > has been removed vs. where it remains on the copper?
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-10 by lists

In article <dq0s5t+jsjg@...>,
   Dave <wa4qal@...> wrote:
> [1] I'm intentionally not going to give the receipe here, due to
> safety concerns (and, because I can't remember it exactly).

I suspect anyone not in the chemical industry would have a great deal of
difficulty getting hold of it anyway.

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte

2006-01-10 by Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...>
wrote:
>
> alan00463 wrote:
> 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >>Sounds kind of odd to want to make an entire pre etched PCB, back to 
> >>being conductive over its entire surface. Why not skip the etching
> > 
> > step altogether so you have fully copper coated fiber glass material ?
> > 
> >>Your question does not read as wanting to selectively coat the
> > 
> > copper tracks with a conductive material since copper is already quite
> > conductive.
> > 
> >>You post is also contradictory by mentioning the use of polyurethane
> > 
> > as being an option, becuase this is not a electrically conductive.
> >  
> > 
> >>Maybe your better to explain what your goal is.
> > 
> > 
> > Sure, Adam.   I want to etch the copper artwork *before* I have all
> > the components to populate the board with.   So that is why I wanted
> > some substance to cover the copper traces immediately after etching so
> > they don't become oxidized.    I was thinking it would be easier to
> > solder the (through-hole) components in place if I used an
> > electrically conductive material.   Or should I use something I can
> > later clean off the copper traces with solder flux when ready to
> > populate the board?
> > 
> > Anyway, I did some research this afternoon and discovered that of the
> > conductive substances nickel, tin, lead, and silver.
> > Nickel is a poor conductor of electricity.
> > Lead is a poison as well as a poor conductor.
> > Tin is also a poor conductor of electricity.
> > That leaves silver, which is an excellent conductor.    Stefan, you
> > are right as usual.   Thanks, Stefan for taking time to answer me.
> > 
> > And yes, I realize it would have been necessary to interconnect all
> > the copper traces in order to electroplate a metal onto them.   That's
> > an extra step that will be nice to avoid.
> > 
> > Thanks to all who answered,
> > Alan
> > 
> 
> Plating the copper traces with another metal would cause no measurable 
> increase in resistance, between an connection interface consisting of 
> solder/nickel/copper and that of solder/copper. Obviously you know that 
> solder has 12? times more resistance than copper!
> Protective plating finishes are typically no more than a few microns 
> thick. Would you scrape of the tin from tin plated copper wires of 
> resistor and IC leads in order to decrease resistance ?

It really depends upon the application.  If he's designing a 
circuit for microwave frequencies, then it may be desirable to
Silver plate everything (while taking the appropriate precautions
against Silver whiskers or electromigrated dendrite formation).
But, unless he is looking for a microwave application, then Tin
plating shouldn't cause any problems (excepting, of course, Tin
whisker formation).

> There are a few ways to avoid copper oxides. Simplest is to use a
common 
> PCB lacquer that is sprayed on. this lacquer can be soldered through. I 
> use it all the time, and think its great.

That's not bad for discrete soldering, but I'm not sure I'd 
recommend it for a wave soldering system.  It really depends on
his production methods (although, I think I'm pretty safe in 
saying that he almost certainly won't be employing a wave 
soldering bath).

> Another approach is to tin plate the copper, with an electroless tin 
> formula, but these are expensive.
> There is also electroless nickel formulations but difficult to get hold 
> of and probably even more difficult to make yourself. I've never made 
> any electroless solutions. Electroless plating is a solution that 
> deposits metal onto a metal without applying external electricity. 
> Electroless plating has ability to plate on its own kind so the metal 
> can build up continuously provided there is a supply of fresh metal 
> ions. Search google for electroless

I have made my own electroless Tin plating solution, although I
certainly wouldn't recommend it to a beginner (or, for that 
matter, even an expert without the appropriate protective 
systems!).  The solution I used to make was based on Stannous 
Chloride, Sodium Chloride, and Sodium Cyanide (Yes, Cyanide!) [1].
It worked wonderfully, but was sensitive to air oxidation.  And, 
you don't even think about having a bottle of acid in the same
room, since a small splash in the electroless plating bath knocks
you dead in about three seconds ("What's that funny sm....<klunk>!").

[1] I'm intentionally not going to give the receipe here, due to
safety concerns (and, because I can't remember it exactly).

> You really don't have a choice to use anything else other than 
> electroless plating since it will be unpractical to connect each copper 
> trace to a power supply for a electrolytic plating bath. Electrolytic 
> plating is inherently simpler, cheaper and more forgiving.

I've seen some designs, usually for gold plating, where each 
and every trace was run to a header on an edge of the card. 
This allowed the card to be electrolytically plated, and then
the header would be sheared off, electrically isolating all of
the traces.  Of course, that made for a rather complex layout,
and it was only possible for relatively simple cards (Think of
small computer cards from 30 years ago, with SSI level TTL 
chips.).

Of course, there are some concerns about what metals can safely
be plated over other metals.  Gold has a bad habit of forming
intermetallic compounds with certain other metals (primarily
Aluminum, although I'm not a metallurgist), and may require a 
passivation metal layer (Nickel?).

> Adam

Dave

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> I know people who simply mix solid chunks of colophony resin with  
> methylated spirits (ethanol alcohol) and apply it with a paintbrush. 

For those of us in the US, I believe you mean what would be called
"denatured alcohol" here. It is primarily ethanol (grain alcohol,
therefore drinkable by itself) mixed with methanol to make it toxic.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Stefan Trethan

It is awfully sticky at first, but overnight it hardens to a really hard  
layer.
If you look at colophony chunks they are similar to colored glass, and  
break in a similar way.

Some solvents might leave it sticky, as far as i know colophony is  
produced by distilling the turpentine out of tree resin.
But ethanol definitely works.


ST


On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:45:59 +0100, dyadic_cyclone  
<dyadic_cyclone@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Does colophony really create a hard coating similar to laquer? I know
>
> flux removers are commonly available, and I have used them after using
>
>  "rosin core" solder on small boards, because, if I don't clean off
>
> the flux residue, the board will be sticky and collect dust, as I
>
> learned with a small SMT pcb I made not long ago.
>
>
> Is colophony different from common "rosin"?   Or is there something
>
> about adding a solvent that leaves the flux harder after the solvent
>
> outgasses than when it is when the flux it is in the core of flexible
>
> solder?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> 
> as i said it is mainly colophony resin (the same flux used in many
solder  
> wires) and alcohol.

A quick Google shows that Colophony resin is pine sap, or based on it.
Collected when they are harvesting turpentine from pine trees:
http://www.herbdatanz.com/offical_volatile_oils_bp.htm
http://www.polymetaal.nl/beguin/mapg/gums_and_resins.htm

I also see some indications that breathing it is not good for you long
term. I know, I know, that fits a lot of things.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1016290&dopt=Abstract>

So it looks like it should be easy to find now that you know. Used in
woodworking so look for specialty wood stores and in art so check art
stores. Apparently rosin for violin bows, although I'd expect this to
be one of the most expensive sources.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:03:42 +0100, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>
> I also see some indications that breathing it is not good for you long
>
> term. I know, I know, that fits a lot of things.


I think this refers to the fumes released when soldering.
Get a solder fume extractor, it's well worth the effort.

The solid or even the laquer should not be inhaled easily.

ST

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by alan00463

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Alan,
> > 
> > as i said it is mainly colophony resin (the same flux used in many
> solder  
> > wires) and alcohol.
> 
> A quick Google shows that Colophony resin is pine sap, or based on it.
> Collected when they are harvesting turpentine from pine trees:
> http://www.herbdatanz.com/offical_volatile_oils_bp.htm
> http://www.polymetaal.nl/beguin/mapg/gums_and_resins.htm
> 
> I also see some indications that breathing it is not good for you long
> term. I know, I know, that fits a lot of things.
>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1016290&dopt=Abstract>
> 
> So it looks like it should be easy to find now that you know. Used in
> woodworking so look for specialty wood stores and in art so check art
> stores. Apparently rosin for violin bows, although I'd expect this to
> be one of the most expensive sources.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>
Great links!   Thanks, Steve.

Alan

RE: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Blair, William

Steve Greenfield wrote:

> "Stefan Trethan" wrote:
> > ... simply mix solid chunks of colophony resin with  
> > methylated spirits (ethanol alcohol) ... 
> 
> For those of us in the US, I believe you mean what would 
> be called "denatured alcohol" here. It is primarily ethanol 
> (grain alcohol, therefore drinkable by itself) mixed with 
> methanol to make it toxic.

I haven't seen any (genuine) "denatured alcohol" that made use of
methanol in a long, long time ... simply because the mixture _IS_
toxic.  What gets used now is denatonium benzoate, the same stuff 
used in anti-nail biting polish for kids. While it's not toxic, I
understand no human can stand its taste, and if any actually gets
ingested, nausea results. It also includes methyl isobutyl ketone
and acetone (dimethyl ketone), which are also toxic but not brain
damaging like methanol.

In the U.K., however, denatured alcohol formulations do include 
methanol (and a few other nasty things if I remember correctly).

Isopropyl alcohol is quite a different thing, but which is most
usually found on drugstore shelves labeled as "rubbing alcohol"
or just "alcohol." It doesn't need to be denatured since nobody
wants to drink it in the first place.

I don't know if any of this makes any difference but it wouldn't
be the first time if it did.  I assume colophony resin dissolves
in any sort of alcohol, regardless of the presence or absence of
methanol.  But, if colophony resin _won't_ dissolve in isopropyl 
alcohol, then an effort will be needed to find genuine denatured
ethanol. And, if that's hard to find (as it is here), then I say
just use Vodka (unless, for some odd reason, the colophony resin
actually does require at least a little bit of methanol, say 10%
or so).

--
WB

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:03:42 +0100, Steve <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> 
> > I also see some indications that breathing it is not good for you long
> >
> > term. I know, I know, that fits a lot of things.
> 
> 
> I think this refers to the fumes released when soldering.
> Get a solder fume extractor, it's well worth the effort.

I had assumed that's what they meant.

> The solid or even the laquer should not be inhaled easily.

Unless you are really determined!

Steve Greenfield

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-10 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Blair, William"
<William_Blair@b...> wrote:
>
> Steve Greenfield wrote:
> 
> > "Stefan Trethan" wrote:
> > > ... simply mix solid chunks of colophony resin with  
> > > methylated spirits (ethanol alcohol) ... 
> > 
> > For those of us in the US, I believe you mean what would 
> > be called "denatured alcohol" here. It is primarily ethanol 
> > (grain alcohol, therefore drinkable by itself) mixed with 
> > methanol to make it toxic.
> 
> I haven't seen any (genuine) "denatured alcohol" that made use of
> methanol in a long, long time ... simply because the mixture _IS_
> toxic.  What gets used now is denatonium benzoate, the same stuff 
> used in anti-nail biting polish for kids. While it's not toxic, I
> understand no human can stand its taste, and if any actually gets
> ingested, nausea results. It also includes methyl isobutyl ketone
> and acetone (dimethyl ketone), which are also toxic but not brain
> damaging like methanol.

And here I thought it was very simple! ;')

> In the U.K., however, denatured alcohol formulations do include 
> methanol (and a few other nasty things if I remember correctly).

I notice that on a cursory Google, I don't see any other ingredients
mentioned for Methylated Spirits but ethanol and methanol.

> I don't know if any of this makes any difference but it wouldn't
> be the first time if it did.  I assume colophony resin dissolves
> in any sort of alcohol, regardless of the presence or absence of
> methanol.  But, if colophony resin _won't_ dissolve in isopropyl 
> alcohol, then an effort will be needed to find genuine denatured
> ethanol. And, if that's hard to find (as it is here), then I say
> just use Vodka (unless, for some odd reason, the colophony resin
> actually does require at least a little bit of methanol, say 10%
> or so).

I hope it can use isopropyl. Although still not 100% safe, it does
seem much safer than Denatured. After reading your post, I did some
more digging for Denatured Alcohol and what I found suggests that
there is a wide variety of stuff that may have been added to make it
unpalatable, including gasoline.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-11 by Stefan Trethan

I think isopropyl alcohol would work too.
But i prefer ethanol because i have found it the better solvent in many  
cases, and the smell is much better too.
It's also more readily available here than IPA, but i buy both at the same  
place so that does not matter so much.

IPA takes on water easily i hear, i'm not sure but i think this is less of  
a problem with ethanol.

I dunno about the additives, all sorts of stuff can be added i have read,  
i'll write my supplier a mail maybe they can find out.
If you ever have gotten traces of the stuff on your lips (like you clean  
some sort of tubular item and blow through it afterwards) you
would have found immediately that you don't never ever want to drink that  
stuff. Even tiny traces of it taste awful on the lips.

I have not the slightest idea why in the US IPA seems so much more common,  
and here in europe ethanol seems so much more common.
IPA is practically only used at doctors offices in sterilizing pads for  
injections here, when i bought my first bottle not that long ago and took  
the lid off i got a very unexpected very strong kind of flashback reaction  
telling me that. I had never smelled it anywhere else before.

ST


On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:42:01 +0100, Blair, William <William_Blair@...>  
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Isopropyl alcohol is quite a different thing, but which is most
>
> usually found on drugstore shelves labeled as "rubbing alcohol"
>
> or just "alcohol." It doesn't need to be denatured since nobody
>
> wants to drink it in the first place.
>
>
> I don't know if any of this makes any difference but it wouldn't
>
> be the first time if it did.  I assume colophony resin dissolves
>
> in any sort of alcohol, regardless of the presence or absence of
>
> methanol.  But, if colophony resin _won't_ dissolve in isopropyl
>
> alcohol, then an effort will be needed to find genuine denatured
>
> ethanol. And, if that's hard to find (as it is here), then I say
>
> just use Vodka (unless, for some odd reason, the colophony resin
>
> actually does require at least a little bit of methanol, say 10%
>
> or so).
>
>
> --
>
> WB

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-11 by kilocycles

Alan,
Did you visit the web site of Caswell Plating.com?  They do have
non-cyanide-based electroless plating products, which are greater in
quantity and higher cost than what you need, but they also have "Plug
N' Plate" kits for copper, nickel, silver, chrome, gold, tin, etc. 
These kits consist of the plating solution, typically 8 oz., except
for gold and silver, a conductive stainless steel wand, and cloth
bandages that go on the end of he wand to wipe the plating element on
the board.  If you do not need the power unit (4.5 volts' worth of D
alkaline batteries will work), the kits cost under $20, except for
gold, which is $22.  As I said before, I have the nickel plate kit.

If you want long-term protection as a slight trade-off for silver (and
subsequently, silver oxide's) higher conductivity, go with gold, which
is 74 on the IACS conductivity scale (pure copper, 99.99% is 100, the
baseline for the standard, and silver is 103.

For short-indeterminate duration, the existing bare copper coated with
lacquer will be the parsimonious solution.  I've tried "Tinnit" once,
and found it not to be worth the trouble for most of my hobby boards.
 My connections are being made with a tin-lead alloy, which as was
mentioned is not exactly a superb conductor, but hopefully, component
leads aren't just floating in the solder alone and are in contact with
the copper on the board.

Ted KX4OM 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "alan00463" <alan00463@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > >

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-11 by Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Blair, William"
<William_Blair@b...> wrote:
>
> Steve Greenfield wrote:
> 
> > "Stefan Trethan" wrote:
> > > ... simply mix solid chunks of colophony resin with  
> > > methylated spirits (ethanol alcohol) ... 
> > 
> > For those of us in the US, I believe you mean what would 
> > be called "denatured alcohol" here. It is primarily ethanol 
> > (grain alcohol, therefore drinkable by itself) mixed with 
> > methanol to make it toxic.
> 
> I haven't seen any (genuine) "denatured alcohol" that made use of
> methanol in a long, long time ... simply because the mixture _IS_
> toxic.  What gets used now is denatonium benzoate, the same stuff 
> used in anti-nail biting polish for kids. While it's not toxic, I
> understand no human can stand its taste, and if any actually gets
> ingested, nausea results. It also includes methyl isobutyl ketone
> and acetone (dimethyl ketone), which are also toxic but not brain
> damaging like methanol.

There are quite a few materials authorized for denaturing ethyl 
alcohol.  The exact formulas may be found in the US government
regulations 27 CFR Part 21:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/27cfr21_05.html

> In the U.K., however, denatured alcohol formulations do include 
> methanol (and a few other nasty things if I remember correctly).
> 
> Isopropyl alcohol is quite a different thing, but which is most
> usually found on drugstore shelves labeled as "rubbing alcohol"
> or just "alcohol." It doesn't need to be denatured since nobody
> wants to drink it in the first place.
> 
> I don't know if any of this makes any difference but it wouldn't
> be the first time if it did.  I assume colophony resin dissolves
> in any sort of alcohol, regardless of the presence or absence of
> methanol.  But, if colophony resin _won't_ dissolve in isopropyl 
> alcohol, then an effort will be needed to find genuine denatured
> ethanol. And, if that's hard to find (as it is here), then I say
> just use Vodka (unless, for some odd reason, the colophony resin
> actually does require at least a little bit of methanol, say 10%
> or so).
> 
> --
> WB

Dave

Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-11 by Mike Phillips

Is it possible to plate thru holes on a pcb? How would you mask off 
what you don't want plated?

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "kilocycles" <kilocycles@y...> 
wrote:
>
> Alan,
> Did you visit the web site of Caswell Plating.com?  They do have
> non-cyanide-based electroless plating products, which are greater 
in
> quantity and higher cost than what you need, but they also 
have "Plug
> N' Plate" kits for copper, nickel, silver, chrome, gold, tin, etc. 
> These kits consist of the plating solution, typically 8 oz., except
> for gold and silver, a conductive stainless steel wand, and cloth
> bandages that go on the end of he wand to wipe the plating element 
on
> the board.  If you do not need the power unit (4.5 volts' worth of 
D
> alkaline batteries will work), the kits cost under $20, except for
> gold, which is $22.  As I said before, I have the nickel plate kit.
> 
> If you want long-term protection as a slight trade-off for silver 
(and
> subsequently, silver oxide's) higher conductivity, go with gold, 
which
> is 74 on the IACS conductivity scale (pure copper, 99.99% is 100, 
the
> baseline for the standard, and silver is 103.
> 
> For short-indeterminate duration, the existing bare copper coated 
with
> lacquer will be the parsimonious solution.  I've tried "Tinnit" 
once,
> and found it not to be worth the trouble for most of my hobby 
boards.
>  My connections are being made with a tin-lead alloy, which as was
> mentioned is not exactly a superb conductor, but hopefully, 
component
> leads aren't just floating in the solder alone and are in contact 
with
> the copper on the board.
> 
> Ted KX4OM 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "alan00463" <alan00463@y...> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> > > <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > > >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-11 by Mike Young

You can mask with a positive image on negative resist if you're plating with 
tin or tin/lead. The tin plating will then be the resist for etching. For 
through holes, you'll plate with copper before plating with tin. Masking 
before plating copper reduces the anode material used, and also doesn't 
waste the etchant required to remove it.

This is theory only, since I haven't tried plating yet.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - 
tinning brush
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:38:38 +0100, Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Is it possible to plate thru holes on a pcb? How would you mask off
>>
>> what you don't want plated?
>>
>>
>> Mike
>
>
> you don't. You plate everything and etch afterwards.
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a neophyte - tinning brush

2006-01-12 by Stefan Trethan

You can't use masking with plating throughholes, since the holes are  
non-metallic.
So you must plate everything (inclusing the board edges) with a method  
that works on non-conductive things (hole wall activator). Then you can  
mask and etch.

You can perhaps mask after the holes are activated or plated with a thin  
layer, i dunno.

ST


On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:46:39 +0100, Mike Young <mikewhy@...>  
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> You can mask with a positive image on negative resist if you're plating  
> with
> tin or tin/lead. The tin plating will then be the resist for etching. For
> through holes, you'll plate with copper before plating with tin. Masking
> before plating copper reduces the anode material used, and also doesn't
> waste the etchant required to remove it.
>
> This is theory only, since I haven't tried plating yet.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 2:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Copper plating material(s) for a  
> neophyte -
> tinning brush
>
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:38:38 +0100, Mike Phillips  
>> <mikep_95133@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is it possible to plate thru holes on a pcb? How would you mask off
>>>
>>> what you don't want plated?
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>
>>
>> you don't. You plate everything and etch afterwards.
>>
>> ST
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
>> Photos:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and  
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

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