Homebrew_PCBs

Hi.
I am getting ready to learn how to make a PCB. I ordered the
carbide drill bits. I need to get a dremel tool for drilling.
What kind should I get?

I am going to make a simple through-hole board for the first
time. I have to learn how to create the artwork using Eagle
4.16. I already put the schematic in it. I just have to figure out
how to make footprints that fit my components.

By the time I get that figured out, I should have the chemicals to
do the copper-etched artwork.

I would also like to figure out how to create the silkscreen
layer--you know, the white or yellow outlines of the components with
polarity markings for the diodes, etc. The non-etched image. I read a
poster say that you could print this silkscreen art onto some kind of
transfer paper using a laser printer.

I'm confused. A laser printer prints in black on white. How do you
transfer the image to white on transparent?
I have only gone through part of the old messages here, so I will keep
looking. Maybe somebody explained this already.

I realize I'm trying to learn two things at the same time here--the
copper-etched artwork and the non-etched artwork. I'm trying to
learn these procedures ASAP. I am going to use the toner transfer
method (rather than ultraviolet lithography, if that's the right
term) using special paper.

Does anybody else use Eagle 4.16 ? I am new to it.

Alan

The Dremel Multi Pro works fine, get the Drill Press to go with it
also as it is very hard to hand hold to drill and not break the
carbide bits. Some don't like the Dermel tool but it has worked
fine for me and I drill a lot of holes with it. Get yourself a shop
vac set up to pick up the dust.

If you are doing TT then you just print as normal to whatever paper
type that you are going to use. You should find in the files
section some information on doing TT and what some have found that
works for them and what does not. I don't do TT myself. I do
positive photo process myself.

Eagle should already have a lib. of basic component modules to
insert and should be able to design your own also. Not a Eagle user
right now, but looking at it and another one to use in place of IVEX
(no longer in business) that I have now, think there is better out
there now days.

Do look thru the Files section, most likely easier to fine the
information that you want than search thru all the post.

Ben

I can help with some of your questions. All my opinion only, of
course:

I started out with a Sears-brand "dremel-like" tool that was only
one speed. It had a fair amount of play in the chuck that with the
high speed vibration, made the bit wobble, causing my holes to be
wollowed out, etc. I bought a Dremel with multiple speeds and it is
very stable and works well. I run it at full or near full speed,
because from what I have heard, the carbide bits are made to run at
even higher speeds than the Dremel can run.

I also have the small drill press. The one I had was from Sears,
bought with the first tool. It is really great. I can't imagine
working without it.

The toner transfer will be black. You will have a black "silk
screen" layer. I have just completed a board in which I used the
toner for the "silk screen". I have made a lot of boards with toner
transfer, but never tried the silk screen until I read the poster
here who talked about it. It turned out great and really makes the
board look great.

I have always used transparency paper rather than glossy photo
paper. It has worked well. I used glossy photo paper this last time
and got good results also. I think the transparency may be a little
easier to use. One thing that seems to be a key to me is cooling
down the board/paper combo in cold tap water before pealing off.
Before I learned to do this, I tried to peal off while still hot.
Much of the toner stuck to the paper rather than the board. Running
water over it all first works great.

I am still using an iron. I am really interested in trying a
lamenating machine as I read about in this group. I may try to buy
one soon.

I am an Eagle 4.16 user. I have used Eagle for several years after a
few years with SuperCAD and SuperPCB (I had a lot of trouble with
them, after paying a lot of money for them. They may have improved
over the years, however). Eagle has been super to use.

When you create a schematic, the parts you placed have a package (or
more than one) within them. To create the PCB, you click on
the "Board" icon or "File-Switch to Board". There is too much detail
to write here. Have you gone through the tutorial that is available
in the download section (under Documentation, maybe?). There are a
lot of good documents there. You should also read up on creating
library parts. It is a little tedious but necessary if the part you
need isn't in the libraries.

I plan to put some pictures and comments together on the latest
board I built for some friends. I would normally email to them but I
could post on a website if their is interest. I don't claim to be an
expert at this but have had some good success. It's quite satisfying.


You have chosen a really good program in Eagle in my opinion.


Good luck!


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "alan00463" <alan00463@y...>
wrote:

>
> Hi.
> I am getting ready to learn how to make a PCB. I ordered the
> carbide drill bits. I need to get a dremel tool for drilling.
> What kind should I get?
>
> I am going to make a simple through-hole board for the first
> time. I have to learn how to create the artwork using Eagle
> 4.16. I already put the schematic in it. I just have to figure

out

> how to make footprints that fit my components.
>
> By the time I get that figured out, I should have the chemicals to
> do the copper-etched artwork.
>
> I would also like to figure out how to create the silkscreen
> layer--you know, the white or yellow outlines of the components

with

> polarity markings for the diodes, etc. The non-etched image. I

read a

> poster say that you could print this silkscreen art onto some kind

of

> transfer paper using a laser printer.
>
> I'm confused. A laser printer prints in black on white. How do

you

> transfer the image to white on transparent?
> I have only gone through part of the old messages here, so I will

keep

> looking. Maybe somebody explained this already.
>
> I realize I'm trying to learn two things at the same time here--the
> copper-etched artwork and the non-etched artwork. I'm trying to
> learn these procedures ASAP. I am going to use the toner transfer
> method (rather than ultraviolet lithography, if that's the right
> term) using special paper.
>
> Does anybody else use Eagle 4.16 ? I am new to it.
>
> Alan
>

Ben, thanks for your recommendation. The dremel tool will be my next
big investment for this project, so I want to make the right choice.
You've helped me, and I appreciate it.

Kenny, thanks for your feedback. It's good to know someone else uses
Eagle. I started Eagle's online tutorial last winter, but never
printed a board. So I will probably have to relearn everything.
This time, I am getting all the tools & chemicals first, so I can
rapidly turn the CAD circuit into a real PCB that I can populate with
real components and test.

It is imperative that I succeed on the first attempt, by at least some
measure. By success, I mean (1) make a circuit that actually works
and (2) learn from my mistakes--or rather, learn what needs to be
improved--both in the etching and in the silkscreen processes. And
this is a complicated enough set of processes for a newbie like me
that your advice will help me to succeed the first time. So I'm
making a very simple circuit that I already prototyped on a breadboard.

As soon as I buy or order the last tool/chemical, then I will sit down
and relearn Eagle. (I only have a few things left to get: dremel
tool, dremel tool drill press, etching chemicals, and either Tinnit or
silver powder to keep the copper from oxidizing.)

Okay, so now I understand the "silkscreen" layer is printed in black
toner on the laser printer and then transfered onto the etched board
the same way you do for the copper anti-etching. Now, I recall from
the pictures that the board is light colored once the copper is etched
off. So what do you apply to the bare fiberglass board to make the
silkscreen layer, once you have applied the toner with the silkscreen
pattern? paint? dye? Does Eagle make the silkscreen layer too?

So far, I have gotten to December 2003 in reading the topics in this
discussion group. So I apologize if these questions have already
been answered.

Thanks,
Alan

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:03:55 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Okay, so now I understand the "silkscreen" layer is printed in black
>
> toner on the laser printer and then transfered onto the etched board
>
> the same way you do for the copper anti-etching. Now, I recall from
>
> the pictures that the board is light colored once the copper is etched
>
> off. So what do you apply to the bare fiberglass board to make the
>
> silkscreen layer, once you have applied the toner with the silkscreen
>
> pattern? paint? dye? Does Eagle make the silkscreen layer too?

On a light colored board you can see the black toner just fine, you don't
need any paint or anything.

Eagle can produce component legend too, it usually consists of the
component outlines, values and/or component numbers, and other text you
want to have on the PCB. Remember to print this one mirrored for top side
and normal for bottom (if any).

ST

I agree with all of Stefan's comments completely. I will add to my
comments that the ironing-on process is the most difficult to get
consistent. Particularly, I have had trouble around the edges. You
would do well to read http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm and
follow his methods of ironing, basically move slowly and apply heat
all over the board.

By the way, for the last board I used, I used JetPrint "Graphic
Image Paper, Gloss Finish" paper. The one that Mr. Gootee indicates
is 2nd best. I am not near a Staples (I live in very rural Georgia)
but we do have a Wal-mart which had this paper. I have only used it
once. It worked pretty well. For the resist image, I tried to follow
Mr. Gootee's instructions and let the paper disolve, scraping off
layers slowly. I noticed, however, that it looked like the paper
would peal off OK without this lengthy process (the way I am used to
with transparency paper). So when I did the component outline on the
top of the board ("silkscreen"), I just cooled quickly with water
and pealed off, just like the transparency paper I am used to. It
worked great! Mr. Gootee talks about having to get the paper out of
the holes in the pads, etc., after disolving the paper away. I
didn't have this trouble. I'm not sure I was doing things exactly as
he describes.

One thing that I have found that I have not seen others mention is
that you can have too much toner from the printer. If the toner is
too thick, then when you apply pressure from the iron, the toner
will spread out and make the traces wider and potentially touch.
This is only an issue if you are using very narrow traces. I
routinely use 12 mil traces and some 10 mil ones on occasion. With
12 mil separation. If the toner spreads, board is useless.

I have used 3 different lasers over the years. I especially remember
on a Lexmark 1650, that I got the best results with the LOWEST toner
setting. I have a 30-power hand-held microscope with a small light
(Christmas gift from brother-in-law years ago) that is great for
looking closely at the paper and/or the board. I experimented with
various toner settings printing on normal paper. I then looked
closely with the microscope. What I found worked best was the
setting where the traces were not totally solid, but made up of
touching toner particles with some space showing between - not much
though. I wish I had a way to take a picture through the microscope
to show. When heated again with the iron, the particles spread and
formed solid traces. The type of toner particles (fine versus
coarse) probably make a big difference too.

I now use a Xerox Phaser 6250 color laser. (I haven't tried any
color but black, however.) The default setting works great on it. I
have never tried to look at it under a microscope. It just always
worked so I never experimented.

There are a few things in Eagle that are hard to remember where to
find, like resizing the restring around the holes. There are a lot
of little details that eventually get easier to do. I really really
like Eagle. I will say that.

KT

On 31 Dec 2005, at 17:19, kennytrussell wrote:

> I agree with all of Stefan's comments completely. I will add to my
> comments that the ironing-on process is the most difficult to get
> consistent. Particularly, I have had trouble around the edges.

I am finding the iron toner process so easy and predictable I am
wondering why some of you find it a problem. I am using Epson photo
quality paper, S041061 and after a 2 minute soak it comes off
completely, leaving no residue or paper. I found it better than the
cheap glossy I tried. I just did my first double sided board which
was also OK.

I move the iron around making sure I get the edges done. I don't use
much downward force, just enough to keep intimate contact with the
board.

My first board efforts, making some LED clocks, are at http://
www.jsdesign.co.uk/charlie/

John

John,
That is a nice board. At the end of your page, you mention that you
think the tracks ended up 25 mils rather than 20 because of the
extra toner. That is exactly what I am talking about that used to
cause me trouble. I think you have the right idea by not applying
too much pressure. I still apply a good bit of pressure but I make
sure my toner is thin from the printer. The board where I learned
the most about toner thickness, pressure, etc. was on a board with a
C8051F018 SMT with .5 mm lead spacing. The pads and traces to the
chip were 12 mils wide with 8 mil spacing believe it or not. After
lots of experiments with toner spreading, I reduced the width to 8
mils, leaving 12 mil spacing. When I ironed it, it spread to about
what I originally needed, I think. This was using a Lexmark Optra S
1650 printer. I believe that if I were to do it again with the
printer I am using now (Xerox Phaser 6250), I would not have the
trouble, particularly if I do as you mention and NOT press so hard.

For one just learning, I would definitely try to stay with trace
separation of 20 mils or more but with practice (and use of Toluol
from the hardware store to remove toner if it doesn't go on well so
you can start over), very fine traces are possible.

NOTE: Toluol causes all kinds of cancer, etc., according to the
label. Be careful! It is wonderful for washing the toner off the
boards, however. A little in a tin pan is all that is needed. I use
a paper towel held in tweezers to wash the board. What do you other
guys do to remove the toner either for a redo or just after etching?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, whoop@b... wrote:
>
>
> On 31 Dec 2005, at 17:19, kennytrussell wrote:
>
> > I agree with all of Stefan's comments completely. I will add to
my
> > comments that the ironing-on process is the most difficult to get
> > consistent. Particularly, I have had trouble around the edges.
>
> I am finding the iron toner process so easy and predictable I am
> wondering why some of you find it a problem. I am using Epson
photo
> quality paper, S041061 and after a 2 minute soak it comes off
> completely, leaving no residue or paper. I found it better than
the
> cheap glossy I tried. I just did my first double sided board
which
> was also OK.
>
> I move the iron around making sure I get the edges done. I don't
use
> much downward force, just enough to keep intimate contact with
the
> board.
>
> My first board efforts, making some LED clocks, are at http://
> www.jsdesign.co.uk/charlie/
>
> John
>

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:15:16 +0100, kennytrussell
<kenneth.trussell@...> wrote:

>
>
> NOTE: Toluol causes all kinds of cancer, etc., according to the
>
> label. Be careful! It is wonderful for washing the toner off the
>
> boards, however. A little in a tin pan is all that is needed. I use
>
> a paper towel held in tweezers to wash the board. What do you other
>
> guys do to remove the toner either for a redo or just after etching?

Acetone is a safe replacement.
You don't need to submerge it, drip some acetone on the pcb, and wipe the
board with a paper towel.

By the way i do not use any solvent, i just use a steel scraper or even
the edge of another PCB. Don't worry about the traces beeing scraped away,
doesn't happen. If you have left behind some small pieces or it smeared
slightly in the etched areas (happens if you use another PCB because it
isn't a nice hard edge) you can clean up with much less acetone and much
less effort. Scraping works on both dry and wet boards, doing it wet binds
the scrapings and you can flush them away, otherwise work over the trash
bin.

ST

Stefan,
Do you not have to worry about even very small traces getting scraped
away?
KT

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>

> By the way i do not use any solvent, i just use a steel scraper or

even

> the edge of another PCB. Don't worry about the traces beeing scraped

away,

> doesn't happen.

No i do not worry and you don't have to either ;-)
even 6.66 mil traces have no problem with it.
I have not damaged the copper this way, ever.

ST


On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 05:18:19 +0100, kennytrussell
<kenneth.trussell@...> wrote:

> Stefan,
>
> Do you not have to worry about even very small traces getting scraped
>
> away?
>
> KT
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
>
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
>>
>
>
>> By the way i do not use any solvent, i just use a steel scraper or
>
> even
>
>> the edge of another PCB. Don't worry about the traces beeing scraped
>
> away,
>
>> doesn't happen.
>

On 31 Dec 2005, at 22:15, kennytrussell wrote:

> John,
> That is a nice board. At the end of your page, you mention that you
> think the tracks ended up 25 mils rather than 20 because of the
> extra toner. That is exactly what I am talking about that used to
> cause me trouble. I think you have the right idea by not applying
> too much pressure. I still apply a good bit of pressure but I make
> sure my toner is thin from the printer.

Kenny, I upped the toner density to make sure I got a solid black
print (I have a software utility to do that on my Apple Laserwriter).

I get a good solid black I can feel with my fingers is raised, but I
do tend to get small pad centre holes after ironing on, to the point
of the hole disappearing at times, so I think your idea of going the
other way and using less toner may be good. I am using a Staedtler
Lumocolor pen to touch up any little bits that need it. I am using
the black pen 318-9 and it works. I have read that the only one to
use is the red version of the pen, but black seems OK to me.

All laser printers print heavier than they should. I often see
printouts that come out of a 600 dpi laser side by side with output
from a 1270 dpi or 2540 dpi Linotron typesetter and the difference is
huge.

I did my first double-sided board 2 days ago (yes another clock, but
much smaller) and it seemed to work OK. I drilled four holes in the
corners and lined up the second side with the holes. I got it a bit
out of true, but not enough that the board was useless. I had no
trouble ironing on one side and then doing the other. I had imagined
the back might re-melt and smear.

John

John,
I found that if I had the toner looking thin (sort of speckled) on
the transparency (you can only tell with a good magnifier like my
30X one), that after ironing (with a lot of pressure) that it filled
in nicely on the board (as seen in the microscope) and didn't widen
too much. I will confess that at times, I still make the traces a
little narrower than the desired width, knowing they will widen. I
certainly didn't want to feel it bumped up on the paper, although I
started out with exactly that idea too.

BUT, what may work well is to not worry about the thickness but NOT
apply too much pressure (someone mentioned that yesterday), but the
problem with this is that if you are ironing by hand, the pressure
is so subjective. One might get it perfect one time and not the next.

I have yet to try a double-sided board but I need to sometime. It
would shorten the routing step considerably. I have had some board
where I had quite a few jumpers to be able to get all the traces on
one side. Thanks for the tips.

My biggest problem is that my PC board making comes in spurts. I may
make 2 or 3 in a month and then go several months before I make
another. I have to relearn too much each time.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, whoop@b... wrote:
>
> Kenny, I upped the toner density to make sure I got a solid black
> print (I have a software utility to do that on my Apple
Laserwriter).
>
> I get a good solid black I can feel with my fingers is raised, but
I
> do tend to get small pad centre holes after ironing on, to the
point
> of the hole disappearing at times, so I think your idea of going
the
> other way and using less toner may be good. I am using a
Staedtler
> Lumocolor pen to touch up any little bits that need it. I am
using
> the black pen 318-9 and it works. I have read that the only one
to
> use is the red version of the pen, but black seems OK to me.
>
> All laser printers print heavier than they should. I often see
> printouts that come out of a 600 dpi laser side by side with
output
> from a 1270 dpi or 2540 dpi Linotron typesetter and the difference
is
> huge.
>
> I did my first double-sided board 2 days ago (yes another clock,
but
> much smaller) and it seemed to work OK. I drilled four holes in
the
> corners and lined up the second side with the holes. I got it a
bit
> out of true, but not enough that the board was useless. I had no
> trouble ironing on one side and then doing the other. I had
imagined
> the back might re-melt and smear.
>
> John
>

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:07:32 +0100, kennytrussell
<kenneth.trussell@...> wrote:

>
>
> BUT, what may work well is to not worry about the thickness but NOT
>
> apply too much pressure (someone mentioned that yesterday), but the
>
> problem with this is that if you are ironing by hand, the pressure
>
> is so subjective. One might get it perfect one time and not the next.
>

laminator or fuser makes that better.

>
> My biggest problem is that my PC board making comes in spurts. I may
>
> make 2 or 3 in a month and then go several months before I make
>
> another. I have to relearn too much each time.
>

That's true!

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>if you are ironing by hand, the pressure is so subjective. One might
>get it perfect one time and not the next.

When I was wondering about the pressure once, I sat a bathroom scale
on the counter and pressed down on it with a push-up (exercise) handle
thing that was about like the iron. It varied between 20-40 pounds on
the scale. I was thinking that maybe 'always' having a scale might
make for more consistent results, but haven't done it yet. The scales
are only a couple inches thick and solid enough to stand on. They
might need a plate of something nice and flat on top though. -The
nearby clock with a second hand is also obviously a help.

I've coincidentally lightened the contrast too on my LaserJet 6L. I
had a minor blurred trace problem too, but have moved to lighter
pressure like some of you guys, and the prints are plenty dark even
with it up a notch. It seems like nice lite or medium pressure, moving
around the board a lot and sort of focusing on the small pointed end
of the iron doesn't have many ill affects, even with much longer
overall time. My only real remaining problems are really thick wide
areas and foolishly running extra thin traces all the way around the
edge borders of the PCB. I'm trying to stop doing that with my
layouts, or to make sure I have more than enough board space (I can
belt sand them down afterward). I'll also be trying to use grid-type
pours where I can. The intricate small stuff luckily comes out really
nice.

>I may make 2 or 3 in a month and then go several months before I make
>another

Ditto! (sucks doesn't it?) I always expect at least one or two tests
to remember what the heck I did last time. Wiping the stuff off is no
biggie though, and you only lose a few minutes. I need to figure out
what I did with my acetone. I've been using regular paint thinner and
it takes a bit of a scrub to get the toner crap off. After the initial
cleaning and a couple of those, I've probably eaten half my copper. :(

Happy New Year!,

George

George,
If you get the toner just right (very light, really), I believe you
can apply as much pressure as you wish and not worry about spreading
too much.

I am planning to make a few boards in the next few weeks. I'll
probably try the paper instead of transparency again. I have always
used transparency paper until I ran out of it. The board I made last
week was with the Jetprint Multiproject paper from Wal-mart. It seemed
to work OK.
Kenny

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "soffee83" <soffee83@y...> wrote:

> I've coincidentally lightened the contrast too on my LaserJet 6L. I
> had a minor blurred trace problem too, but have moved to lighter
> pressure like some of you guys, and the prints are plenty dark even
> with it up a notch. It seems like nice lite or medium pressure,
moving
> around the board a lot and sort of focusing on the small pointed end
> of the iron doesn't have many ill affects, even with much longer
> overall time.

Thanks Kenny!

I bought a few sheets of transparency too a while back and haven't
used it yet. All I've ever done is glossy paper. I really want to get
a bit further with my metal labeling skills. I think it may require
some technique or material adjustments, but I hope not.

BTW- I've read good things about that toner reactive green foil by
Pulsar. I've been dragging my feet on getting together a DigiKey order
for some other stuff. I'm getting that and the white. The green is
supposed to clean up the toner transfer (might help with the large
areas), but I'm not sure if it overlaps or thickens any of the small
stuff.

-George

George,
At the moment, I'm still sold on transparencies being better than the
glossy paper, but really I don't know. I need to do a few more with
paper. I have not heard of the reactive foil you mention. I just got a
huge Digi-key order yesterday (yes, Saturday delivery and all!). I
wish I had known. I'll have to look into it. Let me know if you try it.
Kenny